Browse content similar to 06/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
World leaders pay tribute to Nelson Mandela, after the former South | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
African president dies at the age of 95. We'll hear from Britain's former | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
High Commissioner to South Africa, Paul Boateng. | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
As the dust settles on George Osborne's Autumn Statement, the | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Chancellor has a spring in his step. But how resilient is the recovery? | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
Questions, too, for Ed Balls, left red in the face after a stumbling | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
performance in the House of Commons. We'll discuss the political fall-out | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
of the Chancellor's statement with a trio of frontbenchers. | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
And in the latest of our series on great political thinkers, Toby Young | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
tells us about his favourite philosopher. JS Mill was the first | :01:19. | :01:29. | |
political philosopher I read, aged 17, as part of preparing for my | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
Oxford interview. I was a punk anarchist at the time. | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
Punk anarchist? What is that? All that in the next hour, and with | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
us for the duration, Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee, and the | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
editor of the financial newspaper City AM, Allister Heath. Welcome to | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
the Daily Politics. We start, of course, with the death | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
of Nelson Mandela. Mr Mandela had been suffering from a lung illness | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
for a long time and had been receiving treatment at home since | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
September, when he was discharged from hospital. The news was | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
announced just before 10:00pm London time by the current South African | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
president, Jacob Zuma. Today, South Africans have gathered in | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Johannesburg and Soweto to mourn his death and celebrate his life. | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
Tributes have been paid by political leaders around the world. Tonight, | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
one of the brightest lights of our world has gone out. Now some Mandela | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
was not just a hero of our time but a hero of all time. The first | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
president of a free South Africa, a man who suffered so much for freedom | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
and justice. And a man who threw his dignity -- through his dignity and | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
triumph, inspired millions. We will not likely see the likes of Nelson | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
Mandela again, so it falls to us, as best we can, to follow the example | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
he set. To make decisions guided not by hate but by love. To never | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
discount the difference that one person can make. To strive for a | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
future that is worthy of his sacrifice. For now, let us pause and | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
give thanks to the fact that not some Mandela lived. A man who took | :03:25. | :03:33. | |
history in his hands. And bent the arc of the moral universe towards | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
justice. He is now resting. He is now at peace. Our nation has lost | :03:41. | :03:54. | |
its greatest son. Our people have lost a father. | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma. Of course, Nelson Mandela's | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
life had a huge impact on British politics. Ross Hawkins looks back on | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
the changing attitudes towards South Africa and the relationships forged | :04:06. | :04:16. | |
between both countries. A politician honoured to like no | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
other, with ceremony and a statue at Westminster in 2007. It wasn't | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
always like this. As he recalled at the time. When we visited | :04:27. | :04:35. | |
Westminster Abbey in Parliament Square in 1962, we half joke that we | :04:36. | :04:44. | |
hoped that one day a statue of a black person would be erected here. | :04:45. | :04:54. | |
Some hope. Nelson Mandela, who met Labour and Liberal leaders back then | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
but not the Conservative minister, Harold Macmillan, was a wanted man | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
in South Africa. Two years later he would be jailed for sabotage. He was | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
still in prison when Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister. She | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
regarded his African National Congress as a terrorist | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
organisation. She wanted an end to apartheid but opposed, rents of | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
economic sanctions, argued they hurt black South Africans. You don't want | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
to always hand the stick to South Africa, I think she is a bit fed up | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
with that. When she does things that we want her to do, I think we have | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
got to encourage her. This was the era of the Cold War. The West feared | :05:33. | :05:41. | |
commonest influence on the ANC. Global concerns were different back | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
then. The ANC had the support of the communist world because the West | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
would not support it, with the exception of Scandinavian countries | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
like Sweden. So many countries in the West, including Britain and the | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
United States, almost saw not some Mandela as agents of cumin is. | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Nonsense, but that is the way it was seen -- agents of communism. When | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
his freedom finally came, the world was different and the politics had | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
shifted. Once he was released, everything changed. It all switch to | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
trying to create a harmonious transition to a different type of | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
South Africa. The Conservative Party attitudes changed, John Major was by | :06:23. | :06:30. | |
minister and was very supportive. By 1996, Nelson Mandela was addressing | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
parliament, and politicians from all sides assembled to pay tribute. This | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
was a star like no other. One who could inspire, move and bring call | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
political gold dust. -- sprinkle political gold dust. | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
I can see men and women who were the candidates to immortality. A Tory | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
leader battling Tony Blair met Nelson Mandela and said the | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
Conservatives had got it wrong on the ANC and on sanctions. And the | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
man who first came to Britain as a fugitive is now celebrated by the | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
right and left alike, as the greatest and most successful of | :07:16. | :07:23. | |
politicians. Ross Hawkins, with a reminder of | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
Nelson Mandela's impact on British politics. We've been joined by the | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
Labour politician, Paul Boateng, who served as Britain's High | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
Commissioner to South Africa from 2005 to 2009. Welcome to the Daily | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
Politics. A sad day, in the aftermath of learning of Mr | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
Mandela's death last night. You met him when he got out of prison. I met | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
him in Geneva at the world Council of churches, his first public outing | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
was to Switzerland and the churches. Who had been at the backbone of the | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
anti-apartheid struggle, who had stood alongside him when many | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
described him as a terrorist, many wore T-shirts that said, hanging | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
Nelson Mandela. A very different time. You saw that this was a man | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
imbued with values and a vision. He gave that to politics. And it is | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
that which is so sorely missing for politics, not just in South Africa | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
but in our world today. What had prison done to him? I think it had | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
strengthened him, ironically. This was a man who had always had focus | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
and discipline. That was the hallmark of his life up until then. | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
That was amplified in prison context. He was always, and we | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
should never forget, a freedom fighter. He believed and led the | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
armed struggle. But such was the overwhelming power of love in his | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
life, that he knew that part of the discipline and focus of that had to | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
be the capacity to reconcile, had to be the capacity to build bridges. | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
Whenever I met him, in whatever capacity that was, whether it was a | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
lay church person as a Cabinet minister, or High Commissioner, | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
always there was this sense that he had this profound moral purpose, | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
linked with an acute political strategy. He was not, and it is a | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
great mistake to paint him as somehow a sort of saintly, innocent | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
abroad. He was a politician through and through, an activist, but he had | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
a moral compass, and that didn't just guide him and the ANC. We are | :09:45. | :10:00. | |
talking about a man who worked alongside the famous names of the | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
early ANC. They were part of a movement that had this focus and | :10:05. | :10:06. | |
discipline but was rooted in profound values. Is what makes Mr | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
Mandela different from all of them, is it this? Would it be fair to say | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
that if Nelson Mandela had not existed, the history of South Africa | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
could have been very different, in a bad way. I think he played a key | :10:22. | :10:32. | |
role at a critical time. But I don't think that he was, in himself, | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
bigger than the ANC. He was the product of the ANC, a product of his | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
culture, and he brought to that unique personal qualities. But we | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
really must not take this man out of his context. It would not have been | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
possible to have had a peaceful transition in South Africa... | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
Although don't forget, 10,000 people died after his release. But it would | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
not have been possible to avoid the racial bloodbath that all feared, | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
had it not been for a movement, the ANC, that embraced the path of | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
reconciliation and made enormous sacrifices economically for it. | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
Because the black man in South Africa today is still grossly | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
disadvantaged as compared to the white. And there is still a way to | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
go before Nelson Mandela's dream and aspiration for a rainbow nation in | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
which the Freedom Charter is embedded is achieved. Mandela was | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
the one black leader of all the ones that you have mentioned that had an | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
authority and a cut through with the Afrikaner and other white South | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
African community. The other ANC leaders did not have that. Mr dig -- | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
France De Klerk said he could not have done | :12:00. | :12:14. | |
it without Mandela. De Klerk was intimately involved in those | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
negotiations and there is no doubt the two meant developed a strong | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
relationship. In politics, relationships are, at the end of the | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
day, very important. That relationship between FW De Klerk and | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Nelson Mandela was an important one. I say again, having lived there and | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
work as part of this movement for many years, don't forget the other | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
leaders. We are not forgetting any of these. But we are just in the | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
aftermath of Mr Mandela's death. Because they are all part of the | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
movement. You have made that point. What are your thoughts this morning? | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
He does make other world leaders shrivelled, I am afraid. There was | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
something so magnanimous and splendid about him. He was | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
theatrical and he was wonderful at the theatre of politics. He was a | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
politician to his fingertips. There was that great moment when he turned | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
up wearing the Springboks colours, Springboks really synonymous with | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
white South Africa at the time. That was a theatrical event. I spent a | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
lot of my youth outside South Africa house, demonstrating. I worked for | :13:27. | :13:36. | |
amnesty in Rhodesia in its apartheid days and thank goodness it has all | :13:37. | :13:37. | |
gone but it was horrific. It is sometimes hard to remember it | :13:38. | :13:49. | |
happened, it sound so ridiculous. It is extraordinary to think how few | :13:50. | :14:02. | |
people supported him. I was 13 when he was released from | :14:03. | :14:14. | |
prison and it was probably the first of the big political events that I | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
remember. It was this amazing event that 13-year-old Scot involved with. | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
I agree -- 13-year-olds got involved with. It is ridiculous, looking | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
back, that it took so long for this to happen. To me, it is the end of | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
the 20th century, his passing. The end of an era of great struggles | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
against oppression for the B had fascism, coming as, apartheid and | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
horrible ideologies. It was a great man who transcended everything and | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
one of the very few global figures... Gandhi is another one. | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
You are right, he is probably the last of the 20th-century figures | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
with that iconic status. Polly is right, the ante apartheid -- | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
anti-apartheid movement was pretty small to begin with and it was a | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
long time before it grew. Can we pat ourselves on the back as a country, | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
that written in general, London in particular, -- Britain in general | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
was a main centre for the anti-apartheid movement? I think we | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
can all stop there is something special about London and the British | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
people in terms of their capacity to embrace global struggles. Whatever | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
their political leaders are saying or doing, and that is to the credit | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
of the British people. I found that there were trade union groups, the | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
mothers' union, village halls, ordinary people in rural and urban | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
England who recognised that apartheid was a gross injustice. But | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
there was a hell of a political divide between Labour and the | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
Liberals on one side and the Conservatives on the other. But at | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
the end of the day, the people won. That is what Nelson Mandela | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
symbolises, that whatever happens in terms of the Cold War or party | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
politics, people's movements and activism, when rooted in values and | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
vision is, can triumph. "The plan is working, but the job of | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
recovery is not yet done" . That was the message from Chancellor George | :16:26. | :16:27. | |
Osborne yesterday as he outlined his Autumn Statement to MPs. But despite | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
growth returning to the UK economy, the Office for Budget Responsibility | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
warned of the risks with the recovery fuelled by consumer | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
spending and high levels of household debt, which could top ?2 | :16:39. | :16:47. | |
trillion within four years. The OBR expected the economy to grow by 1.4% | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
this year, double the 0.6% they predicted in March, and by 2.4% next | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
year, higher than they predicted in March as well. The higher than | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
expected level of growth means the chancellor will or less this year | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
that was forecast at the Budget, and he told MPs yesterday that he hopes | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
to run a surplus of ?2 billion in 2018-19. The deficit may have | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
started falling again after two years of little movement, but total | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
debt is still eye-wateringly high and is due to peak at ?1.4 trillion | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
by 2015-16. I have no idea what that means, but it does mean we will have | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
to work for longer, with Osborne announcing that the retirement age | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
will go up at a faster rate. Those in their late 30s will now have to | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
wait until they are 69 to claim a pension. But it was not all gloomy | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
news. The chancellor announced that National Insurance contributions are | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
being scrapped for employers taking on someone who is under 21 as part | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
of an attempt to bring down youth unemployment. And there were | :17:58. | :17:59. | |
measures to help bring down the cost of living. There was the planned 2p | :18:00. | :18:08. | |
fuel duty rise for next year which has been cancelled, and average rail | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
fares will be frozen in real terms from January. This morning, the | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
chancellor was challenged on whether this was the wrong type of recovery, | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
fuelled by consumer spending and high levels of debt. I don't accept | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
that, because actually, 400 thousand new jobs have been created this | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
year. Those are new opportunities for people, many of whom would have | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
been out of work because of the recession we endured in 2008 and | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
2009. Jobs are being created in businesses like this and in small | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
businesses. Yesterday, we were able to provide help for those high | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
street shops trying to stay open. There is better news cost the | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
country, but I would be first to say that we have got to work through | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
this plan. The biggest risk would be coming off the plant that has got us | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
this far. So how does the Autumn Statement | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
look 24 hours on? Our political correspondent joins us now. What a | :19:13. | :19:26. | |
lovely winter scene. Obviously, the whole Autumn Statement was hugely | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
overshadowed by the death of Nelson Mandela, but how does it look this | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
morning? What bits are getting praise and what bits are beginning | :19:35. | :19:46. | |
to unravel? As you mentioned, the Office for Budget Responsibility, | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
set up as an independent body by daughters worn, has been questioning | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
the nature of the recovery -- it was set up by George Osborne. What lies | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
beneath the recovery led by consumer spending? Lots of people are | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
appealing to their much diminished savings in order to spend. That | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
could lead you on to Labour's territory about talking about a cost | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
of living crisis, with people dipping into their savings to make | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
ends meet. There was more disappointing news from the Office | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
for Budget Responsibility, because we are not getting the export led | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
recovery that the government would like. Forecast are disappointing. | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
The OBR are also concerned about house prices, which are rising more | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
than they were forecasting in March. Lib Dem Business Secretary Vince | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
Cable is worried about that as well. But the slightly gloomier economic | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
news is not necessarily bad for the chancellor. Going into the next | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
election, his phrase will be, a lot done, a lot still to do. I have | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
given you a recovery, but it is too fragile to be passed into Labour's | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
clumsy hands. They would drop it. He wants voters not to be tempted to | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
say OK, you have sorted out the mess, and now we can trust Labour to | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
spend our money and tackle the cost of living. | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
We are doing to now by the financial Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
Javid. The Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Chris Leslie is in our | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
Nottingham studio and in Middlesbrough, the Lib Dem Treasury | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
spokesman, Ian Swales. Sajid Javid, most of the growth this year has | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
been fuelled by consumer spending. House prices are up 7.7% compared to | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
last year. Household debt is 116 million pounds higher than forecast | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
to be six months ago. This is just a mini version of the boom we had in | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
the lead up to 2007. Let me quickly associate myself with the comments | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
of Paul Boateng first on Nelson Mandela, who was an inspiration to | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
me and it was sad news yesterday. Turning to your question, what we | :22:10. | :22:11. | |
heard yesterday from the chancellor was confirmation that the economy is | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
growing faster than perceived before. The OECD said a couple of | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
weeks ago that the British economy is growing faster than any other | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
developed economy. There has also been an upgrade in job forecasts. | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
But I was asking you about the content. The economy is growing in | :22:33. | :22:41. | |
all sectors, not just services. Manufacturing and other sectors are | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
growing. Exports are not growing. They are. They fell in the last | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
quarter. Since this government came to office, exports have grown stop | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
it would be an incompetent government that could not get any | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
export growth. They have not grown this year. You could pick one | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
particular quarter and said they did not grow them, but we need to focus | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
on -- we should have focused on exports a decade ago. This | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
government has started doing that. Exports are almost 100% to some | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
countries. We are getting the job done. Business investment is not | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
growing. Overall investment is growing. Business investment is not | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
growing. The economy is growing by 1.4% this year. 1.2% of that is | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
consumer spending. Business investment is a negative -0.4%. It | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
is because of the lack of investment but growth is less than it would be. | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
Investment is coming through. It takes time for confidence to build. | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
But the fact is matter. Business investment has been a drag on | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
growth. It has played no part in the 1.4% growth rate. Alistair, help me | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
out. That is true. Do this investment is a drag on growth. They | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
are hoarding something like 700 LE and pounds -- 700 Ilium pounds. | :24:29. | :24:36. | |
Unfortunately, it seems like the recovery will be driven primarily by | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
consumer spending. Exports are not growing fast enough and | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
house-building is not growing fast enough. We would all like to see all | :24:45. | :24:57. | |
those things grow faster. We have to deal with the huge problems this | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
government has inherited, bigger than any other industrialised | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
country. Part of that was having a method to bring back confidence to | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
the economy, make sure interest rates stay low to encourage | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
investment. Foreign investment is at a record rate in Britain at the | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
moment. In the first six months of this year, the OECD said Britain saw | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
more foreign direct investment than any other country except China. The | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
whole world is investing in us. You are selling off a loss of our stuff | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
to state-owned companies elsewhere. Chinese, French energy, everything | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
we are building and doing here, we seem to be selling to other | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
people's state-owned companies. It is all right to nationalise as long | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
as it is not in this country. Chris Leslie, are you able to answer any | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
of the questions I asked you yesterday that you were not able to | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
answer? Before you repeat the question, I think it would be | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
appropriate if I also paid tribute on the death of Nelson Mandela. It | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
is important that all of our comments are put in that context | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
today. So, does Labour support the principle of a welfare cap? Yes. | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
Would that include tensions? We want to have a welfare cap like the | :26:21. | :26:29. | |
government have said, that tries to define the benefits paid out in | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
society. The best way to do that is to look at the social security | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
expenditure we have over a 20 or 30 year time frame. The cap will | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
probably include some pension benefits in the long-term full of it | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
is not right that the winter fuel allowance is paid to the richest 5% | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
of pensioners. We know there is a triple lock on the basic state | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
pension, and we agree with that. But would Labour's cap, which you agree | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
with in principle, include the state pension? In the near term, we don't | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
think we should depart from the triple lock. But over a 20 or 30 | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
year period, if you are managing welfare, just as you have to make | :27:19. | :27:20. | |
changes on life expect to see to reflect the cost of retirement | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
benefits, we need to make tough decisions on this. We will probably | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
need to include pension benefits in the overall welfare expenditure | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
limitations. But it is important to stress that we also believe the | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
triple lock for the basic state pension is important. I don't | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
understand how you can have the triple lock and a cap on benefit | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
that includes pensions. Well, ask Sajid Javid. The government has made | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
it clear that they are excluding pensions, and I want to work out | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
whether you would or would not. You will find that you can't have a | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
welfare cap of ?120 billion. What is the answer? Excluding pensions from | :28:10. | :28:19. | |
the cap. How can you say it is a ?120 billion cap? I am talking about | :28:20. | :28:37. | |
the 120 billion. If you take the state pension out and exclude | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
job-seeker's allowance, you are down to about 120 billion. Have a look at | :28:42. | :28:55. | |
the figures. I have. They made announcements about the retirement | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
age. There are tough decisions to be taken about that. For us, the key is | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
that it is based on evidence and not just ministers to give their finger | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
in the air and making a guess. I will file my questions under F for | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
failure for two days in a row. You are not making me look good. Ian | :29:16. | :29:23. | |
Swales, are the Lib Dems signing up to the proposed fiscal charter which | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
would almost legally lock in continued deficit reduction? We | :29:29. | :29:37. | |
believe the economy should be run in a way that does deal with the | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
deficit. We will sign up to the charter as part of this government. | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
We believe the economy needs to have Dutch lower deficits that we have | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
got today, and you need to take tough decisions to do that. Chris is | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
pretending they will, and that the WP secretary said they would be | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
tougher on welfare than the Tories, but they have voted against every | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
welfare cut being proposed in this government, so I have no idea where | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
they are welfare. Sajid Javid, don't you have a real problem when the | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
median wage in this country, the typical wage a worker gets, is no | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
higher than it was in 2003? And under the OBR forecast, it does not | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
even get to prerecession levels until after 2018. Clearly many | :30:28. | :30:35. | |
families up and down the country are facing any key challenges, including | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
with wages. If we are going to deal -- facing unique challenges. We have | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
to deal with the problems. The recession was the deepest in living | :30:46. | :30:53. | |
memory and left the country a lot poorer. Clearly there are | :30:54. | :30:55. | |
consequences and dealing with that will take a lot of time. That is | :30:56. | :31:03. | |
what the government is doing. It is a last 15 years, in effect, from | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
2003. -- lost 15 years. The OBR is saying that GP will be a total of | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
15% but wages will grow only by 7.5%. So even as the economy, by | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
your standards, is beginning to repair itself and growth is | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
beginning to return, the workers, people earning wages, are not | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
sharing. Their wages will rise by half of the growth in the economy. | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
We have a plan to deal with that. That is the evidence that was | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
presented to Parliament yesterday. We need more graves, more jobs... | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
This is until 2015, you have not got a plan. We have a plan that is | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
working and if we deviate from this plan, if we abandon the | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
government's economic plan and listen to the people it took about | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
more spending, more borrowing, more debt, the situation would be a lot | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
worse. I don't think anyone said you should abandon your plan. I just | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
asked the question. He wants to abandon the plan. I am not sure he | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
does now. Why did Ed Balls make such a Horlicks of yesterday? Plenty of | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
conservatives would like to say that. 350 or so Conservative MPs | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
were barracking and Jiri. I defy anybody to try to get their voice | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
heard in that environment -- and jeering. All his posts, and utterly | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
breathtaking complacency -- is hosts. | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
The Chancellor is incomplete denial. For most people in our country, | :32:43. | :32:52. | |
living standards are not rising. They are falling, year on year, on | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
year. He used to say he would balance the books in 2015. Now he | :32:59. | :33:07. | |
wants us to congratulate him for saying he will do it in 2019, Mr | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
Speaker. Chris Leslie, you say that conservatives are out to say he did | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
so badly. Can I tell you that off the record, myself and my own people | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
have had three separate briefings from Labour aides, some of them | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
close to Mr Miliband, essentially bad-mouthing Ed Balls. It is always | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
off the record, isn't it? There are all sorts of people you might want | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
to quote but until you can tell me... I am glad you played the clip. | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
First of all, it showed Ed Balls communicating very loud and clear | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
that this is a Chancellor who is out of touch with the cost of living | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
crisis. He also, very loud and clear, made the point that this is a | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
Chancellor who wants to be congratulated for failing to meet | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
his plan to balance the books in 2015. We now have four more years of | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
this large amount of borrowing. Remember, more borrowing in the | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
three years since the general election than was borrowed by the | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
previous government in the previous 13 years. They failed on their own | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
targets and the cost of living crisis continues. We'll Ed Balls | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
still be Shadow Chancellor this time, next year? | :34:24. | :34:25. |