Browse content similar to 30/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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catch up with the weather. the Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
Politics. MPs are debating the Immigration Bill, but for many | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
Conservative MPs it's just not tough enough. Will the Government's | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
concessions be enough to head off the rebels, and why are so many | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Tories unhappy with their own party's policies on migration. Is it | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
OK to light up with the kids in the back seat? The days of smoking | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
behind the wheel of the family car could be numbered after a surprise | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
victory in the House of Lords. Will MPs back the ban? Labour is calling | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
on the Government to apologise over the miners' strike. Is there a case | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
to answer, and is it wise to relive the political battles of the past? | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
And, is David Cameron Scottish? Is Vince Cable a doctor? And is Theresa | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
May turning into a supermodel? We'll look at the things people really | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
want to know about their politicians. | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
Kier Starmer, he's a defence barrister specialising in human | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
rights and was Director of Public Prosecutions until last year. And if | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
you have any thoughts or comments on anything we're discussing then you | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
can send them to us or tweet your comments. | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
Let's start with news that the military is being sent into the | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
flood-hit county of Somerset. Military planners have met council | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
officials to see what support is needed, and the Environment | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
Secretary, Owen Paterson, has said amphibious vehicles could be | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
deployed within 24 hours to help flood victims. | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
Met Office statistics show that the southeast and central southern | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
England has already suffered its wettest January since records began | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
in 1910. Some villages have been cut off for almost a month. More rain is | :02:29. | :02:37. | |
thought to be on the way. The pictures are unbelievable, looking | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
up parts of the country that are cut off, you have to get votes to reach | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
people or for people to get to school. Is it the governments fault | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
that in an area which very susceptible to flooding, is it their | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
fault that not more has been done? Anything I say Mass be taken with a | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
pinch of salt. It is the wettest January for over 100 years. I cannot | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
help thinking some of this could have been done a little earlier. I | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
feel very sorry for people who have been cut off. Critics have said, had | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
this been in Notting Hill and that area had been made and Ireland, do | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
you think because there is so much focus on London, perhaps the | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
military would have been brought in quicker? There does appear to be | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
more focus on London but I do not know the background. We did know the | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
weather was coming. I am not sure anything more could have been done | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
quicker. Now it's time for our daily quiz. In an interview with Steve | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
Wright on Radio 2 the Prime Minister was asked which reality TV show he | :03:47. | :04:00. | |
would rather go on. So which of the reality shows did he pick? Was it... | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
A) Strictly Come Dancing, b) The Great British Bake Off, c) I'm A | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, or d) Splash? At the end of the show, Keir | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
will give us the correct answer. You have plenty of time to think about | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
it. Now, last year, three men were caught taking tomatoes, mushrooms, | :04:20. | :04:21. | |
cheese and cakes from the dustbins behind a branch of the supermarket | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
Iceland. Sounds like they were planning on an omelette and pudding | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
for dinner. But they were arrested as they left with the food, and | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
charged under the 1824 Vagrancy Act. The Crown Prosecution Service said | :04:33. | :04:34. | |
there was significant public interest in prosecuting the men, but | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
yesterday after a public outcry on the internet decided to drop the | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
case. Well, our guest of the day was head of the CPS. We're also joined | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
by the lawyer representing one of the men known on social media as the | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
Iceland three, Mike Schwarz. Welcome to the programme. Was it really | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
worth trying to bring a case against these men? It seems to be sensible | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
to drop the case. The important thing to appreciate is there are | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
hundreds of thousands of decisions that the CPS has two make every | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
year. Sometimes they get it wrong. It looks to me this is one that | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
should not really have been brought. The good thing is, they've reviewed | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
it and dropped it. I think that is a good way to operate. Any | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
organisation will make mistakes. The real test is, do you put right a | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
wrong decision? You are obviously pleased about that decision. They | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
said they were going to prosecute under the Vagrancy Act. I suppose it | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
is a crime. Their defence was they were not acting dishonestly. The | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
suggestion was they were going to steal food. They said this was food | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
that had been thrown away, that was going to waste. It had been frozen | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
and was thawing out. They needed it to feed themselves so they were not | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
acting dishonestly. On the question of the process, yes, it is right for | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
the CPS to review the case. We asked them to review it. There were | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
significant public interest. It was only in the last 24 hours that the | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
case was dropped, simply because of the media and public outcry about | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
the case. Not because of their own internal processes and review, as | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
you were suggesting. Is it now being left to the public to be judge and | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
jury in deciding whether certain things are prosecuted? I do not know | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
the precise details. Cases ought to be under continual review. Sometimes | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
they are reviewed because the lawyer spots something that means the case | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
should not go ahead and sometimes it is because somebody has made a | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
representation. It is kept under review. The important thing is, is | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
it an organisation that, when it recognises a case should be brought, | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
stops that case and reviews it? It does not get everything right all | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
the time but it is a big thing when an organisation says, actually, this | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
case on balance should not have been brought and we will drop the case. | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
It was a nice glass for the CPS and for Iceland. There was a public vote | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
to get these defendants out of court. The PR machines within | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
Iceland, and one has to say within the CPS as well, got moving once | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
they saw a report in the Guardian and accelerated media and twitter | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
campaign against this. As a result, it appears the chief executive of | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
Iceland got on the phone literature literally or figuratively and said, | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
dropped the case because it is doing us tremendous damage. The CPS had a | :08:04. | :08:17. | |
statement on file. Nothing in terms of evidence changed. It rather | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
exposes the CPS? I do not know the precise details of what has gone on. | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
I will speak generally. However a case is brought up for review, it is | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
a good thing if it is reviewed and dropped when it should be dropped. | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
Usually, when that happens, you can say it should happen more quickly. | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
It was not as a result of the review, only as pressure from | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
outside. Very often it is due to pressure from outside. People can | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
ask for a case to be reviewed. That is not unusual and it is sensible. | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
We learned this week that for the first time since before the crash, | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
according to one poll, immigration is the number one issue for the | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
public ahead of the economy. And it is certainly top of the agenda at | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
Westminster today, as the Immigration Bill is back in the | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Commons. The main thrust of the bill, which has widespread support, | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
will make it easier to deport foreign criminals, introduce new | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
checks on immigrants' legal status, and take steps to cut back on what's | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
known as benefits tourism. But the Government's facing a possibly | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
rebellion as many Tory MPs push for a ban on foreign criminals using | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
European human rights law to avoid deportation. Let's go over to our | :09:34. | :09:44. | |
political correspondent, Norman Smith. Where does the Government | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
stand with its bill? Mr Cameron is facing another major showdown with | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
backbenchers over our old friend, Europe. You might think, what on | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
earth does this have to do with the immigration bill? A couple of | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
critical amendments have been tabled. One would restrict the | :10:05. | :10:14. | |
rights of foreign prisoners to use European human rights legislation to | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
avoid being deported. Another imposes restrictions on Romanians | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
and Bulgarians coming to the UK. What I find extraordinary is that | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
this morning we had the former Tory leader going on the wireless | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
saying, we have to stop these rebellions. It is damaging the party | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
and it is damaging unity. We had one leading rebels saying, I am not | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
going to be joining the rebels. We need to get out of this habit. We | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
are too close to a general election. Despite that, we seem on | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
course to two very sizeable and significant revolts over Europe this | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
afternoon. A number of rebels are blaming the Government for trying to | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
use parliamentary shenanigans and tactics to try to talk out | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
amendments that many Tory MPs would like to have tabled. There is no | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
doubt government did try parliamentary gamesmanship to find | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
various means of ensuring these votes could be avoided. the speaker | :11:18. | :11:31. | |
decided to select these amendments. More than 100 MPs have signed up to | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
them. He took the view that it was unacceptable, not to allow that sort | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
of issue, with that sort of importance and that sort of backing, | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
to be voted upon. Big rebellions by Tory MPs but not enough to defeat | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
the bill, or... ? We are in a moving situation. I think you will find | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
strenuous efforts are under way to try to find a compromise deal, in | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
particular with this motion restricting the right of foreign | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
prisoners to use human rights legislation. It was interesting that | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
Mr Cameron had an interview with colleagues on local radio this | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
morning which was suddenly cancelled. One can only suspect he | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
has found more pressing business he needs to attend to. They will be | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
working very hard to find a compromise deal to avoid these | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
revolts. Thank you very much. As you have heard, MPs are debating this in | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
the House of commons. Here is Theresa May speaking a few moments | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
ago. This immigration bill is an important bill. It has widespread | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
support outside of this house. It is a bill which will ensure we have | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
greater ability, as a government, to make it harder for people to live | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
here in the United Kingdom illegally and make it easier for asked to | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
remove people who are here illegally, and will also streamline | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
the process we have four appeals. The Home Secretary, Theresa May. And | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, John Baron, the former Home | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
Office minister and Labour MP Meg Hillier, and by UKIP's head of | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
policy Tim Akers. Welcome to all of you. On the amendment from Nigel | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
Mills to reinstate the restrictions to Romanians and Bulgarians to 2019, | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
I understand, it is not going to go through because many people claim it | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
is just illegal. The Government says it is illegal. It is unrealistic and | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
designed to embarrass the Government. It is designed to get a | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
message across. This is not a party political issue. It has been raised | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
for a couple of years. The Government decided to move the | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
debate and vote to after Christmas. That is why it is retrospectively | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
illegal. That is what Parliament is about. The theory of vote would not | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
have stopped missiles going in but it is about sending a message that | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
needs to be understood at the centre. I am not prepared for the | :14:08. | :14:16. | |
bill to fall. I am supporting the bill at third reading. It does move | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
us in the right direction. With all due respects, immigration under | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
Labour was a shambles. The front bench has apologised. It is our duty | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
to try to approve legislation where we can. Is the amendment actually | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
legal? The Government says it is not because of the laws we are signed up | :14:39. | :14:48. | |
to with the European Union? Pretty much everybody sees that and except | :14:49. | :14:57. | |
that. -- accents that. It is accepted it would not be lawful but | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
the purpose is to send a message. There seems to be a consensus that | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
this would not be lawful. Why are you tabling an amendment which is | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
not lawful and could not become law? You are using Parliament and the | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
House of Commons for your own political purposes. That is to send | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
a message that you should be doing outside of the jurisdiction of | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
legislation. The reason is, at the end of the day, Parliament is also | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
about debating issues. Having the opportunity to discuss an issue | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
which, broadly speaking, we have been denied the opportunity properly | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
for a number of years. We have been raising this on the floor of the | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
House and have been wanting a full debate about it. We wanted full | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
discussion about the merits and so forth. It is about sending a | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
message. Let's try to improve things going forward in the way we | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
communicate and address this fundamental issue. Had we addressed | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
it a couple of years ago, it might have been easier to address many of | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
the issues with in it. You are blaming the Government. I am blaming | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
them because we should have... It is not just us on the Conservative | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
benches, opposition is from the Labour benches as well. This is dog | :16:20. | :16:28. | |
whistle politics and a dog whistle bill. A speech is made one day then | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
let's make life tricky for immigrants and the next day a lot of | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
those things are put in. I was on the committee and some of these | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
amendments are needed because it is so badly put together. I am | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
supporting the amendment. As a former Home Office minister I saw | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
some of the challenges there. This is not something which can become | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
law. It is tactics. But it is about sending out a message that actually, | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
we are in parliament to legislate and if we want to change the law, | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
there are better vehicles to do that. To do that at the last minute | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
just goes to show... But you are in favour of toughening up this | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
immigration Bill? You said you are a symmetry on the Dominic Raab | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
amendment which says it is illegal to deport a foreigner if they face | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
torture or death. I do support that. As a Home Office minister I dealt | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
with cases where people had terrible things done to them by somebody who | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
was not British and we could not deport them. It was a real | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
challenge. If I may say, you could argue that that amendment would be | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
illegal as well. It might get tested in the courts. The Dominic Raab | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
amendment throws up other issues. Fundamental human rights are | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
enshrined in human rights act and to exclude a certain category of | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
individuals from human rights is a slippery slope. You next are you | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
going to exclude from which fundamental right? There are real | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
issues. The second matter of principle is we have a judiciary in | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
this country which is widely respected and this is about | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
shackling them and stopping them to justice in the case which is in | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
front of them. I think that is a very odd way to proceed. How is it | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
shackling them? A foreigner convicted of a serious crime, | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
claiming he or she has a right to a family life, do you accept that has | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
been abused in the past as a way of staying in the UK? That claim can be | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
made, and it is for the judge to take into account whether it is | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
right or wrong, that is why we have courts. The mere fact that you make | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
the claim does not mean you stay. The judge looks at the individual | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
case. By and large, measures which stop judges doing justice in | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
individual cases are wrong in principle. Should there be a | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
judicial review? We should be able to have our Parliament decide on our | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
human rights. All this talk, you would never guess there is an | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
election coming up and UKIP are looking good for the European | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
elections and suddenly the Immigration Bill comes. The talk | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
about blocking Romanians and Bulgarians, the government had years | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
to sort this and they are trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
People will look at that as blatant electioneering. Changing this | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
relationship with the European Convention of human rights is | :19:33. | :19:34. | |
non-negotiable under the Lisbon Treaty. It is a take it or leave it | :19:35. | :19:44. | |
then. Or this tinkering does not mean a thing. There are measures | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
which will be put in place. Plans to strip terror suspects of UK | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
citizenship, making sure landlords and banks check people's status. | :19:54. | :20:06. | |
They should settle the issue of the UK Borders. They should back the | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
amendment to have the referendum sooner rather than later. May I | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
suggest there are concrete measures and teeth in this bill to toughen up | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
on immigration. May I come back to the point about human rights. At the | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
end of the day, we have got have a better balance in this country | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
between the right to family life and parliament's ability to give | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
guidelines to what is acceptable from the public's interest. That is | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
what that amendment is about. 90% of successful appeals against | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
deportation come through this. There are elements of the bill, approach | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
to landlords and things which are dog whistle things. You do not | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
support those things? Said -- stripping terror suspects of UK | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
citizenship? It is not practical. Are you running scared of UKIP? The | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
government has put this up as a sop to MPs. I can assure you I do not | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
run scared of UKIP. When you are restricting the number of grounds | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
appeals from 17 to four, that is a significant improvement with regards | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
to allowing criminals, basically, to stay in this country. These are | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
concrete measures in this bill to toughen up immigration, to get tough | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
with foreign criminals and that should be welcomed by all parties. | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
It should not be subject to party politics. And you agree. I would be | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
delighted if John Baron agrees with UKIP on this and the offer is always | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
there to join us. If UKIP had any MPs, which it does not, and in some | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
ways it is outside this arena because this debate is going on | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
inside the House of Commons, that is the biggest problem for UKIP, you | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
are not part of all this. We are running the agenda. We pushed David | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
Cameron to make the Europe speech and we went up in the polls. You | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
pushed him to make the immigration speech and we went up in the polls. | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
Don't flatter yourself. Tories are divided over this. If you want a | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
united approach to the EU, it is UKIP. Can I suggest that is not | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
true. We are now more united as a party than we have ever been. We | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
have a referendum which we are all signed up to. We are trying to put | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
legislation through Parliament, we cannot help it if Labour and the | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
Liberals are voting down the referendum, but these are | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
conservative measures which will be taking to the next election. Why are | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
you doing this? 15 months from the next election and your party, | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
according to Michael Howard, hardly a Europhile in that sense, who is | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
saying stop it, don't do this. You are pulling the party apart, it | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
looks divided. What do you say to him? We are here as MPs, I will be | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
supporting the Immigration Bill but there is nothing to stop me trying | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
to improve it. They think you are doing it just do improve your own | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
narrative. It is up to other people to a tribute motives. What we have | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
to do is try and improve legislation as it goes through. There are things | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
not being discussed here at all, the impact on public health, it will | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
encourage racism, some of my constituents are British citizens | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
and have every right to rent a house but will face problems as a result | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
of this Bill. There is a lot really wrong with it. So Labour will not | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
supported? We will not be voting for it at the third reading. Are you | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
opposing it? It is above my pay grade. I am going to abstain myself. | :24:02. | :24:12. | |
You are sitting on a fence. There are some elements which are hateful | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
for my constituents but there are other elements which will make a | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
change if they do go through. Let me come back to a point made on human | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
rights, do you accept that claim that judges have overstepped the | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
mark in the way they do interpret these cases that are not in the | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
public interest? No, I do not accept that. You have to balance the rights | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
of a criminal to be deported against those they have offended against, | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
and people feel strongly about it and I completely understand that but | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
my view is that balance should be carried out independently by a | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
judge. What I think is a retrograde step is to exclude even | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
consideration of this issue for certain groups of individuals. That | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
is a slippery slope. Who next is to be excluded from even having their | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
rights taken into consideration? It is a slippery slope. Who would be | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
next? It does include a right of appeal, the right to call for a | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
judicial review, particular around the needs of children. Have | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
fundamental rights and to say for some people, you do not have them. | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
If you have been sentenced for more than a year, you will be deported. | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
You are not entitled to live here, you will be deported unless there | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
are serious grounds to believe you will be tortured or murdered. I | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
think that is perfectly reasonable. We have seen too many cases where | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
the right to family life has assumed to great and importance, compared to | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
the right public interest. It is about a fundamental right, it either | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
applies to everybody or you are picking off groups of individuals | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
which will ring warning bells to people. When a criminal commits a | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
crime, there is a paste to -- a price to pay to society overall and | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
one of those is to say, we should reassess the right to family life | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
versus the public interest with regard to protecting the public | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
generally. No matter what anybody says, Parliament has a duty to make | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
sure we get that balance right on the half of the law-abiding | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
majority. Thank you to my guests. After a surprise government defeat | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
in the House of Lords yesterday, a ban on smoking in cars with children | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
on board has moved a step closer. Campaigners have welcomed the | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
result. They say the move would protect children exposed to | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
second-hand smoking. The band is not directly oppose smoking in cars with | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
children in them, but it backs the proposal. This morning, the deputy | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
minister Nick Clegg, who is known to be a smoker, had this to say on Elbe | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
BC radio. I do not personally think it will work to pass a law. Of | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
course, it is a stupid thing to do to smoke in a car with kids in the | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
back, in the same way you should not give your child a can of Coke before | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
they go to bed or only feed them crisps breakfast, lunch and supper. | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
I am like anybody else, I have got small children, I'm dismayed that | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
anyone might do that, especially in an enclosed space like that. The | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
question is, is right to always have a law to fix something you do not | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
like. I know the temptation is to always say, there is a problem, | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
where is the law? I'm quite an old-fashioned liberal and I do not | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
think you should legislate unless will make a difference. An | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
interesting debate. Nick Clegg was speaking this morning. Giles is in | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
central lobby to find out what MPs think. This amendment is about the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
principle, and not banning it. But nonetheless there is a lot of | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
support for this. It has with me Luciano Burge. Why should the state | :28:05. | :28:14. | |
get involved? This is a serious issue. We know every week half a | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
million children are subjected to toxic levels of smoke because they | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
are in a where an adult is smoking. We never every year 300,000 children | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
have to go to the doctor because of illnesses they are suffering because | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
of passive smoke. That is why we have been discussing it. If that is | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
the case, why not ban smoking? This is an isolated place. Why not in the | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
home? Can the state do this sort of thing. There are lots of things we | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
regulate in a car already, the fact you have to wear a seat belt, the | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
fact you cannot talk on a mobile phone and you have to have specific | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
child seats. We are not seeking to criminalise smokers. If an adult | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
wants to smoke, that is their right but we are concerned about | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
protecting children and that is why we think the debate is so important. | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
Is your objecting to this on the libertarian side that the state has | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
no business telling people what to do on the practical side, how do you | :29:15. | :29:23. | |
enforce it? It is both. It is not practical to enforce it. The police | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
are already stretched. They should not be prioritising stopping cars | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
where someone may be smoking and trying to work out whether the child | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
is under 18 or over 18, is the person is opposed to try and prove | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
that the age is someone over 18. How will we check this? A burglar is | :29:42. | :29:53. | |
going to be walking down the street and impeded because the police will | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
be rounding up people smoking in cars. You know the children will | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
kick off and tell the parents, we are talking about toddlers and young | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
kids here. Is there a balance to be struck between the rights of people | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
to choose to do something and the rights of the state to look after | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
children who cannot voice that complaint? You are saying it is | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
topless and small children, I do not think that is what the Labour Party | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
is proposing, they are saying people under 18 -- toddlers and small | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
children. This is a private space. Luciano cannot complain that it is | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
terrible to smoke in a car in front of young children but in a caravan | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
it is fine, a similarly imposed space. This is the march of the | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
nanny state, the patronising nanny state where we know best and other | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
MPs have come into Parliament to try and ban everything they do not like. | :30:50. | :30:58. | |
Do you want to ban everything? Of course not. We are talking about | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
concentrated levels of smoke in a car. In terms of how you might | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
enforce it, we want to learn from the experience of other countries | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
where they already have this legislation. Certain states of | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. Never where it has worked | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
well and whether you go down the criminal or civil route. We would | :31:22. | :31:34. | |
like people to back the principal, is what you are saying, but you have | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
not worked out how you will do that. The last Labour government | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
commissioned research into this area. It is only a shame the current | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
government cancelled it when it came into office in 2010. We need to have | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
that work done. The issue is that we are keen to protect children who do | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
not have a voice and do not choose which vehicle they travel in. Do not | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
think that what will happen in the end is that people will not do it | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
anyway? Parents are much better in bringing up their children than the | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
state. I trust parents to make the right decisions. The challenge, as I | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
said at the start of half a million children every week are still | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
subjected to this. Education is really important. Legislation can | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
help. With car seats, when the wearing a safety belt came in, we | :32:36. | :32:46. | |
saw a change. MPs from all over the House supported. 22 members of | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
coalition MPs supported it in 2011. We will have to see what happens. If | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
I ever dared to smoke in my car, my children would go crazy, so that | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
will not happen. It is a free votes they are not so tied to party | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
loyalties. -- a free vote, so they are not tied. And we've been joined | :33:12. | :33:21. | |
by viewers in Scotland, who have been watching First Minister's | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
Questions from Holyrood. Recently released official papers show that | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
Margaret Thatcher 's garment had a secret plan to close 75 pits. -- | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
government. Here is what David Cameron said yesterday. We have a | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
system called releasing paperwork from ten, 20, 30 years ago and we | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
should stick to that. If anyone needs to make an apology for the | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
role in the miners' strike, it should be Arthur Scargill. If anyone | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
else wants to ask about their roles, it is the role of the leader of the | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
low the party. They never condemned the fact they want to hold a ballot. | :34:07. | :34:18. | |
-- the Labour Party. I am joined by the Labour MP calling for an apology | :34:19. | :34:28. | |
and by the Conservative MP, Andrew Russell Nelson. It is about newly | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
released information from the Cabinet papers. We have asked for an | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
apology but it does not look like we will get one. We have called for | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
transparency. In the Cabinet papers, it did show that the Government at | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
the time is pressurising the police. We have asked for full transparency. | :34:49. | :36:35. | |
In relation to what happened, We are asking very specific questions. We | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
needed the backbenchers to give something to cheer about. I | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
understand in the heat of the moment why David Cameron was particularly | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
boorish but I think it was relevant to the questions that we were | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
calling for. It was not relevant to the miners strike. It is really | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
important to understand this. The Cabinet papers highlighted some very | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
specific issues around policing and whether the public were lied to. We | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
are saying, let's have transparency and reconciliation. You are the | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
government of the day, publish the materials. The idea that Mrs | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
Thatcher's government was anti the mining communities is wrong. You | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
have indicated that. There were 80% less of them at the end. We were | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
going through a change in nationalised industries and all | :37:32. | :37:33. | |
these things were happening at the time. We all know what took place | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
but to try and make out somehow how government was trying to undermine | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
the mining communities was not correct. Scargill was using those | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
people sadly for his own political ends and had he got away with it he | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
could have brought down a critically elected government and undermine did | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
our Chrissy and Mrs Thatcher was right to stand up to it. We will | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
come back to the Battle of that Jan Scargill. On the issue of the | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
papers, did the Conservative government lie about what they were | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
doing? Why did they keep it secret? Why did they keep it secret which | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
led to decades of deprivation and social collapse. I do not think | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
anyone was lying. We are talking about 30 years ago and neither of us | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
was a member of Parliament. Many options would have been bound to be | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
considered. Quite where it ended, who could have told at that | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
particular point. Clearly, they were looking at different options and the | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
papers have revealed that. There was economic change, it was part of a | :38:45. | :38:55. | |
plan to close are uneconomic pits. There is always the secrecy with | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
Cabinet papers, what is the point of trying to break over this now? | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
Andrew is arguing with himself. He is saying this is economic, it is | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
deindustrialisation. It was. They did say that at the time and the | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
Cabinet papers said that was not their position. It was about | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
politics. They felt that the mining communities were a threat to the | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
government. Norman Tebbit yesterday likened the mining strike to the | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
Falklands War. That is a stark indication of the mentality of the | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
government at the time. These are people who were hard-working, tax | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
paying, law-abiding people, they were defending their jobs and their | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
industry and at the end of it there was a secret plan and 80% of miners | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
lost their jobs under Thatcher. The industry was totally decimated. | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
Should Arthur Scargill apologise for what he did and the way he led the | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
miners strike. Should Arthur Scargill apologise as well? Arthur | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
Scargill speaks for himself. I am a member of Parliament. I am | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
scrutinising government papers and I am asking the government to be | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
accountable for those. Does it change your view, you have heard now | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
what the debate is about, has it changed your mind about the miners' | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
strike and the aftermath? I think the the transparency is a powerful | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
one. The police and confidence in the government will only be there if | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
we know what went on. This has to be eight powerful plea. Let's see the | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
full details and then we can have an informed bait about what happened. | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
Are you not kicking yourself in the foot here? Whatever the expression | :40:44. | :40:53. | |
is. Even Neil clinic has said I was undermined by the action that Arthur | :40:54. | :41:03. | |
Scargill was taking -- even Neil Kinnock has said that. There was | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
something which was more damaging to labour than it ever was the | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
Conservatives'. I am not speaking for Arthur Scargill. What I'm saying | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
is those of us who were there who saw what happened during the strike | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
have lived with a sense of injustice ever since, about the policing and | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
what happened to them. I think government has an opportunity, to | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
have full transparency and reconciliation and then we can move | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
on. But as important to those communities today in 2014. Should | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
David Cameron apologise? Absolutely not. We had to defeat Arthur | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
Scargill. We were not attacking communities. We were going through | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
economic change and it was inevitable. It is a great pity that | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
the Labour Party are saying that actually Arthur Scargill was in the | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
wrong. It is being reported that Labour's national executive will | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
scrap the parties are electoral college that elected Ed Miliband, | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
will that happen next week? You will have to wait until the changes are | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
announced. I support big changes in the Labour Party. I am not going to | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
go through the detail of those changes? They will be agreed through | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
the national executive. What you are going to see next week, I am very | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
confident about it, are big changes in the relationship between Labour | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
and the trade unions, about Ed Miliband modernising his party and | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
saying, we have a unique relationship with millions of | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
people. The Tories are bankrolled by a few millionaires at the top, we | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
want to strengthen our relationship with working people. I wanted you to | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
answer the question, not have a quick political debate. Our guest of | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
the day has been hired by the Labour Party to review how the criminal | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
justice system treats witnesses and victims of crime. | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
It has come after a high-profile case where a witness took her own | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
life after giving evidence. We will talk about what can be done to make | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
the court process more palatable. But what is it really like in the | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
witness box? Frances Andrade took her own life | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
last year a week after she had given evidence about a former music | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
teacher who had abused her. We have spoken to a woman who knows exactly | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
what it is like. Last summer, she gave evidence in the trial of a man | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
accused of sexually assaulting her. He was acquitted. We are not | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
revealing her right entity. She is particularly scathing about the | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
judge. The way he treated me was as if he was trying to prove myself. He | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
was not sensitive about the subject matter and had a poor understanding | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
of sexual violence. I was made to feel like I was a little girl and I | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
was wasting his time. Just as bad was the bureaucracy of the court | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
process which made the experience even worse. I had random phone calls | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
from people in the police centre have to speak to me. It was people I | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
have never spoken to before and they said just two days before the trial | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
but there was a great possibility that the date for the trial would be | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
moving. When you have been waiting eight months that is a really, | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
really big thing. The Justice Secretary Chris Grayling has | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
listened. He has published a new version of the victims' code. | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
Victims can read out statements about how they have been affected in | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
court. In some cases, evidence can be pre-recorded. And then there are | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
people like Linda from the charity victim support. She prepares | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
witnesses of all ages for being cross-examined. They will put it to | :44:52. | :45:05. | |
you it did not happen at all. An adult can understand all of that. | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
They have been in that situation and will answer with their own sarcasm | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
perhaps. A child has no idea what any of that means. They will have no | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
tools to counteract that. Witnesses are allowed to have someone like | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
Linda in court. For many victims, it is the nature of the system that is | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
a problem. I felt I was a small part of the thing. They would not have | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
had a case had I not gone through the whole process. We asked the | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
Ministry of Justice about this. A new victims code gives victims the | :45:44. | :46:03. | |
option to read out their personal statement and tell the court how | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
crime has affected them. Barbara is here to discuss this. The code of | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
conduct for barristers has been replaced and we have just talked | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
about the new victims code. Do we need anything else? We do. I am in | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
favour of the work that has already been done but we cannot escape the | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
conclusion that most vulnerable victims do not have the confidence | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
to even come forward to report what has happened to them because they | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
fear the process. When they do come forward, most of them say they will | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
not do it again. I am a big fan of a criminal justice system. I do think | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
that in relation to victims, we cannot go on any more simply saying, | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
that is the way it is, bad luck. We need to take it much more | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
seriously. That is a shocking indictment on the criminal justice | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
system. Some victims have such a terrible experience at some said | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
they would not do it again. Anyone who present in a criminal trial must | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
be treated fairly and appropriately. What does appropriate | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
mean? Anyone who makes an allegation about a criminal offence is not a | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
victim until it has been proved and someone has been convicted. We are | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
in danger of confusing the situation where someone is being asked to give | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
evidence and is there as a witness and the position of someone who is | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
able to be vindicated in court because the jury has accepted the | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
story and may become the victim. There is a huge amount of support to | :47:38. | :47:46. | |
to a European directive. Victims have a charter of entitlements to | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
support them. Do you back that? This is what has been demanded and it has | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
been implemented. It is important to look at the system in its proper | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
context. We have statutes and legislation setting out what the | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
defence can do. We have never had a victims law in this country. That is | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
quite remarkable given the central importance of evicting, something | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
that clearly set out in law that entitlements and makes them | :48:18. | :48:26. | |
enforceable. What sort of Lord you want? They have a right to anonymity | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
in certain types of crime and European Union directive, which sets | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
out their entitlements. They have a Human Rights Act which allows them | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
to participate effectively in these proceedings. They are entitled to | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
special measures when they are vulnerable. I do not understand what | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
more it is they need that they do not have already. Victims say they | :48:50. | :48:58. | |
do not have the confidence to come forward. They said they would not do | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
it again. If you ask most people who have been through the process | :49:04. | :49:05. | |
whether they have been treated fairly, almost all of them would say | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
no. We cannot ignore that. Something has to change. If victims feel they | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
are the ones that have done wrong, I accept your point but until the case | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
has been proven one way or the other... If you are made to feel | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
about the guilty party yourself, it surely the onus is in the wrong | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
place? It is a two-way street. If you are making a very serious | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
accusation, that person will want to defend themselves. These accusations | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
can be unpleasant. They can be about child abuse or rape, which can be | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
devastating. Very difficult if you are a child or a vulnerable woman. | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
That person will want to defend themselves. These accusations can be | :49:57. | :49:58. | |
unpleasant. They can be about child abuse or rape, which can be | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
devastating. Very difficult if you are a child or a vulnerable woman. | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
There are honourable men as well the defence has a right to protest the | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
account. Part of the problem with believing the victim, people go | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
around saying you will be believed, but sometimes people are given an | :50:19. | :50:20. | |
unrealistic expectation that because they are told they will be -- | :50:21. | :50:29. | |
believed, they will not be challenged. Sometimes, some people | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
come into court in cases where they are very upset and angry at the | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
thought of what has happened and they asked right and of the thought | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
of seeing this person in court. -- they are frightened. I have given | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
evidence myself and it is stressful. I can understand them | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
feeling they are not being treated there but it can be a mistake in | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
perception. Rights of defence are extremely important. Any case has to | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
be properly tested. I do not think we can go on with the arrangements | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
as they are. It is not just what happens in court. It is the way | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
people are brought in to make a complaint in the first place. It is | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
how they are dealt with and the support they have around them. We | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
need to achieve something we have never been able to achieve before | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
and that is getting better recognition and support for victims | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
without taking away the important rights of the defence. That makes it | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
difficult. I accept that. It requires us to step back and look at | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
the entire set of arrangements from start to finish. That is what we are | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
going through as part of the review I am carrying out for the Labour | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
Party. We are on that journey and I want to include as many people as | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
possible in the process. The victims commissioner said lasted that | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
victims do not always want an offender tried and convicted. | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
Someone the violence and behaviour against them stopped. It is | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
interesting. How far do you go with the public interests in prosecuting? | :52:12. | :52:24. | |
Does the expectation of you winning -- is the expectation of you winning | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
not that high? Sometimes it is appropriate to continue with a case, | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
even if the victim does not want to support it any more, visit may be a | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
pattern of behaviour, it may be ongoing offending. These decisions | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
are best made in individual cases. I am talking about something much more | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
fundamental. We have only really been talking about victims rights in | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
the last 15 years or so. I support all the good work that has been | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
done. I support the code and we need to go further. The barristers code | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
says you must not, humiliate or annoy it witness. Barristers do, | :53:05. | :53:13. | |
don't they? If your defendant Clyde is saying to you, I have never seen | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
this person before, the allegation is made up, they are lying. People | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
think of something says something which is untrue that the other | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
person is intentionally lying. The barrister has to make a judgment. | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
The judge is there to make sure the barrister does not behave improperly | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
or offensively and can intervene. At the end of the day, if someone is | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
saying that did not happen, I was not there, it was not me, that has | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
to be put to the other side. Sometimes people do live. You are | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
carrying out this review for the Labour Party. There has been | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
speculation you could stand to be a Labour MP in 2015. Will you? I gave | :53:56. | :54:04. | |
up the post three months ago. I am considering a number of options. | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
We will watch this space. We have all done it, gone to a | :54:13. | :54:21. | |
search engine to answer a simple question like, how many Tories are | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
rebelling over the Immigration Bill? Or is Father Christmas real? I have | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
not done that one lately. As if by magic, the search engine knows what | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
you are going to say before you type it. It even works with politicians. | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
Here is Giles with more. There are certain gizmos which help you out. | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
Like Google. It has its controversies but it has an | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
interesting function, auto complete. A number of people have pointed this | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
out. If you put in a question like is David Cameron... It will make | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
some suggestions based on the searches which have already gone on | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
under that question. It gives you the answer, is David Cameron | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
Scottish, a Thatcherite, a Christian or dead? In the best tradition of | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
cookery programmes, here are some I made earlier. | :55:17. | :55:54. | |
I have to say, apart from being a bit of a giggle, this tells us | :55:55. | :56:22. | |
absolutely nothing, except that people are obsessed with | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
politicians' marriage status. Let's try this, is Giles still not... Oh, | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
good lord, I will leave it there. That will just entice everybody to | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
have a look. That was just him having a search for his own name. I | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
should say, other search engines are available. With me in the studio is | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
Jim Waterson from Buzzfeed UK. Do you do this a lot? A lot of people | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
are assessed with whether Ed Miliband is made of magnets. I do | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
not know where this is from. We have put it to Labour, they have | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
concerned he is not but said he attracts voters! I wonder how long | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
it took them to think of that. Is it just the most popular search engines | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
which come up. It is a mixture of that. I think there are also a few | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
pranksters who are having fun who are putting lines in code, somewhere | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
hidden on websites, Google is picking up on it and that is doing a | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
feedback loop. For a while, there was something which said is Ed | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
Miliband a suit filled with meringues? I do not think that is | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
actually anything. Have you ever done, is Keir Starmer... ? No! Will | :57:43. | :57:53. | |
you do it now? I do not know. What about Buzzfeed. That is going to do | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
politics? People want to look at fun list and they also want to read | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
about politics and they are not separate. Our audience is anyone | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
interested in politics. Mainly they are young people 18 to 35 at the | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
moment but we get traffic all over the place. How will you do it | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
differently? We have got a lot of things we are working on. The not | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
strung by the old newspaper formats, we do not need to waffle | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
on. That is just as well because we have run out of time. Just time to | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
do the answer to our quiz. Which reality TV show would David Cameron | :58:37. | :58:44. | |
rather be on? I am going to go for Splash. You are wrong. It is The | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
Great British Bake Off. Far safer, he does not have to get into a | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
swimming costume. Thank you to all our guests. Goodbye. | :58:54. | :59:02. |