30/01/2014 Daily Politics


30/01/2014

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catch up with the weather. the Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily

:00:36.:00:40.

Politics. MPs are debating the Immigration Bill, but for many

:00:41.:00:43.

Conservative MPs it's just not tough enough. Will the Government's

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concessions be enough to head off the rebels, and why are so many

:00:51.:00:53.

Tories unhappy with their own party's policies on migration. Is it

:00:54.:00:58.

OK to light up with the kids in the back seat? The days of smoking

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behind the wheel of the family car could be numbered after a surprise

:01:03.:01:05.

victory in the House of Lords. Will MPs back the ban? Labour is calling

:01:06.:01:10.

on the Government to apologise over the miners' strike. Is there a case

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to answer, and is it wise to relive the political battles of the past?

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And, is David Cameron Scottish? Is Vince Cable a doctor? And is Theresa

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May turning into a supermodel? We'll look at the things people really

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want to know about their politicians.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is

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Kier Starmer, he's a defence barrister specialising in human

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rights and was Director of Public Prosecutions until last year. And if

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you have any thoughts or comments on anything we're discussing then you

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can send them to us or tweet your comments.

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Let's start with news that the military is being sent into the

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flood-hit county of Somerset. Military planners have met council

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officials to see what support is needed, and the Environment

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Secretary, Owen Paterson, has said amphibious vehicles could be

:02:10.:02:11.

deployed within 24 hours to help flood victims.

:02:12.:02:17.

Met Office statistics show that the southeast and central southern

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England has already suffered its wettest January since records began

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in 1910. Some villages have been cut off for almost a month. More rain is

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thought to be on the way. The pictures are unbelievable, looking

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up parts of the country that are cut off, you have to get votes to reach

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people or for people to get to school. Is it the governments fault

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that in an area which very susceptible to flooding, is it their

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fault that not more has been done? Anything I say Mass be taken with a

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pinch of salt. It is the wettest January for over 100 years. I cannot

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help thinking some of this could have been done a little earlier. I

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feel very sorry for people who have been cut off. Critics have said, had

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this been in Notting Hill and that area had been made and Ireland, do

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you think because there is so much focus on London, perhaps the

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military would have been brought in quicker? There does appear to be

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more focus on London but I do not know the background. We did know the

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weather was coming. I am not sure anything more could have been done

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quicker. Now it's time for our daily quiz. In an interview with Steve

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Wright on Radio 2 the Prime Minister was asked which reality TV show he

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would rather go on. So which of the reality shows did he pick? Was it...

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A) Strictly Come Dancing, b) The Great British Bake Off, c) I'm A

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Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, or d) Splash? At the end of the show, Keir

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will give us the correct answer. You have plenty of time to think about

:04:15.:04:19.

it. Now, last year, three men were caught taking tomatoes, mushrooms,

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cheese and cakes from the dustbins behind a branch of the supermarket

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Iceland. Sounds like they were planning on an omelette and pudding

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for dinner. But they were arrested as they left with the food, and

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charged under the 1824 Vagrancy Act. The Crown Prosecution Service said

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there was significant public interest in prosecuting the men, but

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yesterday after a public outcry on the internet decided to drop the

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case. Well, our guest of the day was head of the CPS. We're also joined

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by the lawyer representing one of the men known on social media as the

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Iceland three, Mike Schwarz. Welcome to the programme. Was it really

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worth trying to bring a case against these men? It seems to be sensible

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to drop the case. The important thing to appreciate is there are

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hundreds of thousands of decisions that the CPS has two make every

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year. Sometimes they get it wrong. It looks to me this is one that

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should not really have been brought. The good thing is, they've reviewed

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it and dropped it. I think that is a good way to operate. Any

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organisation will make mistakes. The real test is, do you put right a

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wrong decision? You are obviously pleased about that decision. They

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said they were going to prosecute under the Vagrancy Act. I suppose it

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is a crime. Their defence was they were not acting dishonestly. The

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suggestion was they were going to steal food. They said this was food

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that had been thrown away, that was going to waste. It had been frozen

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and was thawing out. They needed it to feed themselves so they were not

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acting dishonestly. On the question of the process, yes, it is right for

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the CPS to review the case. We asked them to review it. There were

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significant public interest. It was only in the last 24 hours that the

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case was dropped, simply because of the media and public outcry about

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the case. Not because of their own internal processes and review, as

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you were suggesting. Is it now being left to the public to be judge and

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jury in deciding whether certain things are prosecuted? I do not know

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the precise details. Cases ought to be under continual review. Sometimes

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they are reviewed because the lawyer spots something that means the case

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should not go ahead and sometimes it is because somebody has made a

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representation. It is kept under review. The important thing is, is

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it an organisation that, when it recognises a case should be brought,

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stops that case and reviews it? It does not get everything right all

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the time but it is a big thing when an organisation says, actually, this

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case on balance should not have been brought and we will drop the case.

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It was a nice glass for the CPS and for Iceland. There was a public vote

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to get these defendants out of court. The PR machines within

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Iceland, and one has to say within the CPS as well, got moving once

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they saw a report in the Guardian and accelerated media and twitter

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campaign against this. As a result, it appears the chief executive of

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Iceland got on the phone literature literally or figuratively and said,

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dropped the case because it is doing us tremendous damage. The CPS had a

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statement on file. Nothing in terms of evidence changed. It rather

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exposes the CPS? I do not know the precise details of what has gone on.

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I will speak generally. However a case is brought up for review, it is

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a good thing if it is reviewed and dropped when it should be dropped.

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Usually, when that happens, you can say it should happen more quickly.

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It was not as a result of the review, only as pressure from

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outside. Very often it is due to pressure from outside. People can

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ask for a case to be reviewed. That is not unusual and it is sensible.

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We learned this week that for the first time since before the crash,

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according to one poll, immigration is the number one issue for the

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public ahead of the economy. And it is certainly top of the agenda at

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Westminster today, as the Immigration Bill is back in the

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Commons. The main thrust of the bill, which has widespread support,

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will make it easier to deport foreign criminals, introduce new

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checks on immigrants' legal status, and take steps to cut back on what's

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known as benefits tourism. But the Government's facing a possibly

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rebellion as many Tory MPs push for a ban on foreign criminals using

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European human rights law to avoid deportation. Let's go over to our

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political correspondent, Norman Smith. Where does the Government

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stand with its bill? Mr Cameron is facing another major showdown with

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backbenchers over our old friend, Europe. You might think, what on

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earth does this have to do with the immigration bill? A couple of

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critical amendments have been tabled. One would restrict the

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rights of foreign prisoners to use European human rights legislation to

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avoid being deported. Another imposes restrictions on Romanians

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and Bulgarians coming to the UK. What I find extraordinary is that

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this morning we had the former Tory leader going on the wireless

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saying, we have to stop these rebellions. It is damaging the party

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and it is damaging unity. We had one leading rebels saying, I am not

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going to be joining the rebels. We need to get out of this habit. We

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are too close to a general election. Despite that, we seem on

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course to two very sizeable and significant revolts over Europe this

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afternoon. A number of rebels are blaming the Government for trying to

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use parliamentary shenanigans and tactics to try to talk out

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amendments that many Tory MPs would like to have tabled. There is no

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doubt government did try parliamentary gamesmanship to find

:11:15.:11:17.

various means of ensuring these votes could be avoided. the speaker

:11:18.:11:31.

decided to select these amendments. More than 100 MPs have signed up to

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them. He took the view that it was unacceptable, not to allow that sort

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of issue, with that sort of importance and that sort of backing,

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to be voted upon. Big rebellions by Tory MPs but not enough to defeat

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the bill, or... ? We are in a moving situation. I think you will find

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strenuous efforts are under way to try to find a compromise deal, in

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particular with this motion restricting the right of foreign

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prisoners to use human rights legislation. It was interesting that

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Mr Cameron had an interview with colleagues on local radio this

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morning which was suddenly cancelled. One can only suspect he

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has found more pressing business he needs to attend to. They will be

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working very hard to find a compromise deal to avoid these

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revolts. Thank you very much. As you have heard, MPs are debating this in

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the House of commons. Here is Theresa May speaking a few moments

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ago. This immigration bill is an important bill. It has widespread

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support outside of this house. It is a bill which will ensure we have

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greater ability, as a government, to make it harder for people to live

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here in the United Kingdom illegally and make it easier for asked to

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remove people who are here illegally, and will also streamline

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the process we have four appeals. The Home Secretary, Theresa May. And

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I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, John Baron, the former Home

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Office minister and Labour MP Meg Hillier, and by UKIP's head of

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policy Tim Akers. Welcome to all of you. On the amendment from Nigel

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Mills to reinstate the restrictions to Romanians and Bulgarians to 2019,

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I understand, it is not going to go through because many people claim it

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is just illegal. The Government says it is illegal. It is unrealistic and

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designed to embarrass the Government. It is designed to get a

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message across. This is not a party political issue. It has been raised

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for a couple of years. The Government decided to move the

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debate and vote to after Christmas. That is why it is retrospectively

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illegal. That is what Parliament is about. The theory of vote would not

:14:01.:14:04.

have stopped missiles going in but it is about sending a message that

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needs to be understood at the centre. I am not prepared for the

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bill to fall. I am supporting the bill at third reading. It does move

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us in the right direction. With all due respects, immigration under

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Labour was a shambles. The front bench has apologised. It is our duty

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to try to approve legislation where we can. Is the amendment actually

:14:31.:14:38.

legal? The Government says it is not because of the laws we are signed up

:14:39.:14:48.

to with the European Union? Pretty much everybody sees that and except

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that. -- accents that. It is accepted it would not be lawful but

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the purpose is to send a message. There seems to be a consensus that

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this would not be lawful. Why are you tabling an amendment which is

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not lawful and could not become law? You are using Parliament and the

:15:16.:15:18.

House of Commons for your own political purposes. That is to send

:15:19.:15:23.

a message that you should be doing outside of the jurisdiction of

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legislation. The reason is, at the end of the day, Parliament is also

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about debating issues. Having the opportunity to discuss an issue

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which, broadly speaking, we have been denied the opportunity properly

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for a number of years. We have been raising this on the floor of the

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House and have been wanting a full debate about it. We wanted full

:15:47.:15:51.

discussion about the merits and so forth. It is about sending a

:15:52.:15:56.

message. Let's try to improve things going forward in the way we

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communicate and address this fundamental issue. Had we addressed

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it a couple of years ago, it might have been easier to address many of

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the issues with in it. You are blaming the Government. I am blaming

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them because we should have... It is not just us on the Conservative

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benches, opposition is from the Labour benches as well. This is dog

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whistle politics and a dog whistle bill. A speech is made one day then

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let's make life tricky for immigrants and the next day a lot of

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those things are put in. I was on the committee and some of these

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amendments are needed because it is so badly put together. I am

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supporting the amendment. As a former Home Office minister I saw

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some of the challenges there. This is not something which can become

:16:49.:16:53.

law. It is tactics. But it is about sending out a message that actually,

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we are in parliament to legislate and if we want to change the law,

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there are better vehicles to do that. To do that at the last minute

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just goes to show... But you are in favour of toughening up this

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immigration Bill? You said you are a symmetry on the Dominic Raab

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amendment which says it is illegal to deport a foreigner if they face

:17:15.:17:21.

torture or death. I do support that. As a Home Office minister I dealt

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with cases where people had terrible things done to them by somebody who

:17:26.:17:29.

was not British and we could not deport them. It was a real

:17:30.:17:35.

challenge. If I may say, you could argue that that amendment would be

:17:36.:17:40.

illegal as well. It might get tested in the courts. The Dominic Raab

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amendment throws up other issues. Fundamental human rights are

:17:48.:17:51.

enshrined in human rights act and to exclude a certain category of

:17:52.:17:59.

individuals from human rights is a slippery slope. You next are you

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going to exclude from which fundamental right? There are real

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issues. The second matter of principle is we have a judiciary in

:18:08.:18:10.

this country which is widely respected and this is about

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shackling them and stopping them to justice in the case which is in

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front of them. I think that is a very odd way to proceed. How is it

:18:19.:18:26.

shackling them? A foreigner convicted of a serious crime,

:18:27.:18:29.

claiming he or she has a right to a family life, do you accept that has

:18:30.:18:35.

been abused in the past as a way of staying in the UK? That claim can be

:18:36.:18:38.

made, and it is for the judge to take into account whether it is

:18:39.:18:43.

right or wrong, that is why we have courts. The mere fact that you make

:18:44.:18:46.

the claim does not mean you stay. The judge looks at the individual

:18:47.:18:53.

case. By and large, measures which stop judges doing justice in

:18:54.:18:56.

individual cases are wrong in principle. Should there be a

:18:57.:19:03.

judicial review? We should be able to have our Parliament decide on our

:19:04.:19:07.

human rights. All this talk, you would never guess there is an

:19:08.:19:10.

election coming up and UKIP are looking good for the European

:19:11.:19:14.

elections and suddenly the Immigration Bill comes. The talk

:19:15.:19:18.

about blocking Romanians and Bulgarians, the government had years

:19:19.:19:23.

to sort this and they are trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

:19:24.:19:26.

People will look at that as blatant electioneering. Changing this

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relationship with the European Convention of human rights is

:19:33.:19:34.

non-negotiable under the Lisbon Treaty. It is a take it or leave it

:19:35.:19:44.

then. Or this tinkering does not mean a thing. There are measures

:19:45.:19:50.

which will be put in place. Plans to strip terror suspects of UK

:19:51.:19:53.

citizenship, making sure landlords and banks check people's status.

:19:54.:20:06.

They should settle the issue of the UK Borders. They should back the

:20:07.:20:10.

amendment to have the referendum sooner rather than later. May I

:20:11.:20:15.

suggest there are concrete measures and teeth in this bill to toughen up

:20:16.:20:19.

on immigration. May I come back to the point about human rights. At the

:20:20.:20:24.

end of the day, we have got have a better balance in this country

:20:25.:20:28.

between the right to family life and parliament's ability to give

:20:29.:20:31.

guidelines to what is acceptable from the public's interest. That is

:20:32.:20:38.

what that amendment is about. 90% of successful appeals against

:20:39.:20:45.

deportation come through this. There are elements of the bill, approach

:20:46.:20:50.

to landlords and things which are dog whistle things. You do not

:20:51.:20:57.

support those things? Said -- stripping terror suspects of UK

:20:58.:21:04.

citizenship? It is not practical. Are you running scared of UKIP? The

:21:05.:21:11.

government has put this up as a sop to MPs. I can assure you I do not

:21:12.:21:16.

run scared of UKIP. When you are restricting the number of grounds

:21:17.:21:22.

appeals from 17 to four, that is a significant improvement with regards

:21:23.:21:26.

to allowing criminals, basically, to stay in this country. These are

:21:27.:21:32.

concrete measures in this bill to toughen up immigration, to get tough

:21:33.:21:35.

with foreign criminals and that should be welcomed by all parties.

:21:36.:21:39.

It should not be subject to party politics. And you agree. I would be

:21:40.:21:45.

delighted if John Baron agrees with UKIP on this and the offer is always

:21:46.:21:52.

there to join us. If UKIP had any MPs, which it does not, and in some

:21:53.:21:57.

ways it is outside this arena because this debate is going on

:21:58.:22:01.

inside the House of Commons, that is the biggest problem for UKIP, you

:22:02.:22:06.

are not part of all this. We are running the agenda. We pushed David

:22:07.:22:09.

Cameron to make the Europe speech and we went up in the polls. You

:22:10.:22:13.

pushed him to make the immigration speech and we went up in the polls.

:22:14.:22:22.

Don't flatter yourself. Tories are divided over this. If you want a

:22:23.:22:27.

united approach to the EU, it is UKIP. Can I suggest that is not

:22:28.:22:32.

true. We are now more united as a party than we have ever been. We

:22:33.:22:36.

have a referendum which we are all signed up to. We are trying to put

:22:37.:22:40.

legislation through Parliament, we cannot help it if Labour and the

:22:41.:22:44.

Liberals are voting down the referendum, but these are

:22:45.:22:47.

conservative measures which will be taking to the next election. Why are

:22:48.:22:52.

you doing this? 15 months from the next election and your party,

:22:53.:22:58.

according to Michael Howard, hardly a Europhile in that sense, who is

:22:59.:23:03.

saying stop it, don't do this. You are pulling the party apart, it

:23:04.:23:08.

looks divided. What do you say to him? We are here as MPs, I will be

:23:09.:23:14.

supporting the Immigration Bill but there is nothing to stop me trying

:23:15.:23:19.

to improve it. They think you are doing it just do improve your own

:23:20.:23:23.

narrative. It is up to other people to a tribute motives. What we have

:23:24.:23:29.

to do is try and improve legislation as it goes through. There are things

:23:30.:23:34.

not being discussed here at all, the impact on public health, it will

:23:35.:23:41.

encourage racism, some of my constituents are British citizens

:23:42.:23:44.

and have every right to rent a house but will face problems as a result

:23:45.:23:48.

of this Bill. There is a lot really wrong with it. So Labour will not

:23:49.:23:54.

supported? We will not be voting for it at the third reading. Are you

:23:55.:24:01.

opposing it? It is above my pay grade. I am going to abstain myself.

:24:02.:24:12.

You are sitting on a fence. There are some elements which are hateful

:24:13.:24:16.

for my constituents but there are other elements which will make a

:24:17.:24:21.

change if they do go through. Let me come back to a point made on human

:24:22.:24:25.

rights, do you accept that claim that judges have overstepped the

:24:26.:24:29.

mark in the way they do interpret these cases that are not in the

:24:30.:24:33.

public interest? No, I do not accept that. You have to balance the rights

:24:34.:24:38.

of a criminal to be deported against those they have offended against,

:24:39.:24:42.

and people feel strongly about it and I completely understand that but

:24:43.:24:46.

my view is that balance should be carried out independently by a

:24:47.:24:52.

judge. What I think is a retrograde step is to exclude even

:24:53.:24:55.

consideration of this issue for certain groups of individuals. That

:24:56.:25:00.

is a slippery slope. Who next is to be excluded from even having their

:25:01.:25:03.

rights taken into consideration? It is a slippery slope. Who would be

:25:04.:25:09.

next? It does include a right of appeal, the right to call for a

:25:10.:25:14.

judicial review, particular around the needs of children. Have

:25:15.:25:21.

fundamental rights and to say for some people, you do not have them.

:25:22.:25:25.

If you have been sentenced for more than a year, you will be deported.

:25:26.:25:32.

You are not entitled to live here, you will be deported unless there

:25:33.:25:35.

are serious grounds to believe you will be tortured or murdered. I

:25:36.:25:39.

think that is perfectly reasonable. We have seen too many cases where

:25:40.:25:47.

the right to family life has assumed to great and importance, compared to

:25:48.:25:52.

the right public interest. It is about a fundamental right, it either

:25:53.:25:56.

applies to everybody or you are picking off groups of individuals

:25:57.:25:59.

which will ring warning bells to people. When a criminal commits a

:26:00.:26:07.

crime, there is a paste to -- a price to pay to society overall and

:26:08.:26:12.

one of those is to say, we should reassess the right to family life

:26:13.:26:15.

versus the public interest with regard to protecting the public

:26:16.:26:19.

generally. No matter what anybody says, Parliament has a duty to make

:26:20.:26:23.

sure we get that balance right on the half of the law-abiding

:26:24.:26:28.

majority. Thank you to my guests. After a surprise government defeat

:26:29.:26:32.

in the House of Lords yesterday, a ban on smoking in cars with children

:26:33.:26:36.

on board has moved a step closer. Campaigners have welcomed the

:26:37.:26:42.

result. They say the move would protect children exposed to

:26:43.:26:45.

second-hand smoking. The band is not directly oppose smoking in cars with

:26:46.:26:53.

children in them, but it backs the proposal. This morning, the deputy

:26:54.:26:58.

minister Nick Clegg, who is known to be a smoker, had this to say on Elbe

:26:59.:27:04.

BC radio. I do not personally think it will work to pass a law. Of

:27:05.:27:09.

course, it is a stupid thing to do to smoke in a car with kids in the

:27:10.:27:14.

back, in the same way you should not give your child a can of Coke before

:27:15.:27:18.

they go to bed or only feed them crisps breakfast, lunch and supper.

:27:19.:27:23.

I am like anybody else, I have got small children, I'm dismayed that

:27:24.:27:27.

anyone might do that, especially in an enclosed space like that. The

:27:28.:27:31.

question is, is right to always have a law to fix something you do not

:27:32.:27:36.

like. I know the temptation is to always say, there is a problem,

:27:37.:27:41.

where is the law? I'm quite an old-fashioned liberal and I do not

:27:42.:27:44.

think you should legislate unless will make a difference. An

:27:45.:27:48.

interesting debate. Nick Clegg was speaking this morning. Giles is in

:27:49.:27:54.

central lobby to find out what MPs think. This amendment is about the

:27:55.:27:58.

principle, and not banning it. But nonetheless there is a lot of

:27:59.:28:04.

support for this. It has with me Luciano Burge. Why should the state

:28:05.:28:14.

get involved? This is a serious issue. We know every week half a

:28:15.:28:19.

million children are subjected to toxic levels of smoke because they

:28:20.:28:23.

are in a where an adult is smoking. We never every year 300,000 children

:28:24.:28:28.

have to go to the doctor because of illnesses they are suffering because

:28:29.:28:33.

of passive smoke. That is why we have been discussing it. If that is

:28:34.:28:39.

the case, why not ban smoking? This is an isolated place. Why not in the

:28:40.:28:45.

home? Can the state do this sort of thing. There are lots of things we

:28:46.:28:49.

regulate in a car already, the fact you have to wear a seat belt, the

:28:50.:28:53.

fact you cannot talk on a mobile phone and you have to have specific

:28:54.:28:58.

child seats. We are not seeking to criminalise smokers. If an adult

:28:59.:29:02.

wants to smoke, that is their right but we are concerned about

:29:03.:29:05.

protecting children and that is why we think the debate is so important.

:29:06.:29:11.

Is your objecting to this on the libertarian side that the state has

:29:12.:29:14.

no business telling people what to do on the practical side, how do you

:29:15.:29:23.

enforce it? It is both. It is not practical to enforce it. The police

:29:24.:29:29.

are already stretched. They should not be prioritising stopping cars

:29:30.:29:32.

where someone may be smoking and trying to work out whether the child

:29:33.:29:37.

is under 18 or over 18, is the person is opposed to try and prove

:29:38.:29:41.

that the age is someone over 18. How will we check this? A burglar is

:29:42.:29:53.

going to be walking down the street and impeded because the police will

:29:54.:29:57.

be rounding up people smoking in cars. You know the children will

:29:58.:30:02.

kick off and tell the parents, we are talking about toddlers and young

:30:03.:30:06.

kids here. Is there a balance to be struck between the rights of people

:30:07.:30:09.

to choose to do something and the rights of the state to look after

:30:10.:30:13.

children who cannot voice that complaint? You are saying it is

:30:14.:30:17.

topless and small children, I do not think that is what the Labour Party

:30:18.:30:22.

is proposing, they are saying people under 18 -- toddlers and small

:30:23.:30:29.

children. This is a private space. Luciano cannot complain that it is

:30:30.:30:34.

terrible to smoke in a car in front of young children but in a caravan

:30:35.:30:38.

it is fine, a similarly imposed space. This is the march of the

:30:39.:30:44.

nanny state, the patronising nanny state where we know best and other

:30:45.:30:49.

MPs have come into Parliament to try and ban everything they do not like.

:30:50.:30:58.

Do you want to ban everything? Of course not. We are talking about

:30:59.:31:04.

concentrated levels of smoke in a car. In terms of how you might

:31:05.:31:08.

enforce it, we want to learn from the experience of other countries

:31:09.:31:12.

where they already have this legislation. Certain states of

:31:13.:31:17.

America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. Never where it has worked

:31:18.:31:21.

well and whether you go down the criminal or civil route. We would

:31:22.:31:34.

like people to back the principal, is what you are saying, but you have

:31:35.:31:37.

not worked out how you will do that. The last Labour government

:31:38.:31:44.

commissioned research into this area. It is only a shame the current

:31:45.:31:50.

government cancelled it when it came into office in 2010. We need to have

:31:51.:31:57.

that work done. The issue is that we are keen to protect children who do

:31:58.:32:01.

not have a voice and do not choose which vehicle they travel in. Do not

:32:02.:32:08.

think that what will happen in the end is that people will not do it

:32:09.:32:14.

anyway? Parents are much better in bringing up their children than the

:32:15.:32:18.

state. I trust parents to make the right decisions. The challenge, as I

:32:19.:32:26.

said at the start of half a million children every week are still

:32:27.:32:30.

subjected to this. Education is really important. Legislation can

:32:31.:32:35.

help. With car seats, when the wearing a safety belt came in, we

:32:36.:32:46.

saw a change. MPs from all over the House supported. 22 members of

:32:47.:32:53.

coalition MPs supported it in 2011. We will have to see what happens. If

:32:54.:33:00.

I ever dared to smoke in my car, my children would go crazy, so that

:33:01.:33:04.

will not happen. It is a free votes they are not so tied to party

:33:05.:33:11.

loyalties. -- a free vote, so they are not tied. And we've been joined

:33:12.:33:21.

by viewers in Scotland, who have been watching First Minister's

:33:22.:33:29.

Questions from Holyrood. Recently released official papers show that

:33:30.:33:32.

Margaret Thatcher 's garment had a secret plan to close 75 pits. --

:33:33.:33:40.

government. Here is what David Cameron said yesterday. We have a

:33:41.:33:45.

system called releasing paperwork from ten, 20, 30 years ago and we

:33:46.:33:50.

should stick to that. If anyone needs to make an apology for the

:33:51.:33:58.

role in the miners' strike, it should be Arthur Scargill. If anyone

:33:59.:34:03.

else wants to ask about their roles, it is the role of the leader of the

:34:04.:34:06.

low the party. They never condemned the fact they want to hold a ballot.

:34:07.:34:18.

-- the Labour Party. I am joined by the Labour MP calling for an apology

:34:19.:34:28.

and by the Conservative MP, Andrew Russell Nelson. It is about newly

:34:29.:34:34.

released information from the Cabinet papers. We have asked for an

:34:35.:34:38.

apology but it does not look like we will get one. We have called for

:34:39.:34:44.

transparency. In the Cabinet papers, it did show that the Government at

:34:45.:34:48.

the time is pressurising the police. We have asked for full transparency.

:34:49.:36:35.

In relation to what happened, We are asking very specific questions. We

:36:36.:36:40.

needed the backbenchers to give something to cheer about. I

:36:41.:36:43.

understand in the heat of the moment why David Cameron was particularly

:36:44.:36:48.

boorish but I think it was relevant to the questions that we were

:36:49.:36:55.

calling for. It was not relevant to the miners strike. It is really

:36:56.:37:02.

important to understand this. The Cabinet papers highlighted some very

:37:03.:37:05.

specific issues around policing and whether the public were lied to. We

:37:06.:37:09.

are saying, let's have transparency and reconciliation. You are the

:37:10.:37:16.

government of the day, publish the materials. The idea that Mrs

:37:17.:37:21.

Thatcher's government was anti the mining communities is wrong. You

:37:22.:37:27.

have indicated that. There were 80% less of them at the end. We were

:37:28.:37:31.

going through a change in nationalised industries and all

:37:32.:37:33.

these things were happening at the time. We all know what took place

:37:34.:37:38.

but to try and make out somehow how government was trying to undermine

:37:39.:37:44.

the mining communities was not correct. Scargill was using those

:37:45.:37:48.

people sadly for his own political ends and had he got away with it he

:37:49.:37:51.

could have brought down a critically elected government and undermine did

:37:52.:37:55.

our Chrissy and Mrs Thatcher was right to stand up to it. We will

:37:56.:38:00.

come back to the Battle of that Jan Scargill. On the issue of the

:38:01.:38:07.

papers, did the Conservative government lie about what they were

:38:08.:38:15.

doing? Why did they keep it secret? Why did they keep it secret which

:38:16.:38:21.

led to decades of deprivation and social collapse. I do not think

:38:22.:38:25.

anyone was lying. We are talking about 30 years ago and neither of us

:38:26.:38:30.

was a member of Parliament. Many options would have been bound to be

:38:31.:38:35.

considered. Quite where it ended, who could have told at that

:38:36.:38:39.

particular point. Clearly, they were looking at different options and the

:38:40.:38:44.

papers have revealed that. There was economic change, it was part of a

:38:45.:38:55.

plan to close are uneconomic pits. There is always the secrecy with

:38:56.:38:58.

Cabinet papers, what is the point of trying to break over this now?

:38:59.:39:04.

Andrew is arguing with himself. He is saying this is economic, it is

:39:05.:39:11.

deindustrialisation. It was. They did say that at the time and the

:39:12.:39:15.

Cabinet papers said that was not their position. It was about

:39:16.:39:20.

politics. They felt that the mining communities were a threat to the

:39:21.:39:25.

government. Norman Tebbit yesterday likened the mining strike to the

:39:26.:39:28.

Falklands War. That is a stark indication of the mentality of the

:39:29.:39:33.

government at the time. These are people who were hard-working, tax

:39:34.:39:36.

paying, law-abiding people, they were defending their jobs and their

:39:37.:39:40.

industry and at the end of it there was a secret plan and 80% of miners

:39:41.:39:48.

lost their jobs under Thatcher. The industry was totally decimated.

:39:49.:39:51.

Should Arthur Scargill apologise for what he did and the way he led the

:39:52.:39:57.

miners strike. Should Arthur Scargill apologise as well? Arthur

:39:58.:40:04.

Scargill speaks for himself. I am a member of Parliament. I am

:40:05.:40:07.

scrutinising government papers and I am asking the government to be

:40:08.:40:12.

accountable for those. Does it change your view, you have heard now

:40:13.:40:19.

what the debate is about, has it changed your mind about the miners'

:40:20.:40:25.

strike and the aftermath? I think the the transparency is a powerful

:40:26.:40:30.

one. The police and confidence in the government will only be there if

:40:31.:40:34.

we know what went on. This has to be eight powerful plea. Let's see the

:40:35.:40:38.

full details and then we can have an informed bait about what happened.

:40:39.:40:43.

Are you not kicking yourself in the foot here? Whatever the expression

:40:44.:40:53.

is. Even Neil clinic has said I was undermined by the action that Arthur

:40:54.:41:03.

Scargill was taking -- even Neil Kinnock has said that. There was

:41:04.:41:07.

something which was more damaging to labour than it ever was the

:41:08.:41:14.

Conservatives'. I am not speaking for Arthur Scargill. What I'm saying

:41:15.:41:21.

is those of us who were there who saw what happened during the strike

:41:22.:41:26.

have lived with a sense of injustice ever since, about the policing and

:41:27.:41:29.

what happened to them. I think government has an opportunity, to

:41:30.:41:35.

have full transparency and reconciliation and then we can move

:41:36.:41:40.

on. But as important to those communities today in 2014. Should

:41:41.:41:47.

David Cameron apologise? Absolutely not. We had to defeat Arthur

:41:48.:41:52.

Scargill. We were not attacking communities. We were going through

:41:53.:41:55.

economic change and it was inevitable. It is a great pity that

:41:56.:41:59.

the Labour Party are saying that actually Arthur Scargill was in the

:42:00.:42:03.

wrong. It is being reported that Labour's national executive will

:42:04.:42:07.

scrap the parties are electoral college that elected Ed Miliband,

:42:08.:42:13.

will that happen next week? You will have to wait until the changes are

:42:14.:42:18.

announced. I support big changes in the Labour Party. I am not going to

:42:19.:42:22.

go through the detail of those changes? They will be agreed through

:42:23.:42:27.

the national executive. What you are going to see next week, I am very

:42:28.:42:33.

confident about it, are big changes in the relationship between Labour

:42:34.:42:37.

and the trade unions, about Ed Miliband modernising his party and

:42:38.:42:40.

saying, we have a unique relationship with millions of

:42:41.:42:44.

people. The Tories are bankrolled by a few millionaires at the top, we

:42:45.:42:48.

want to strengthen our relationship with working people. I wanted you to

:42:49.:42:53.

answer the question, not have a quick political debate. Our guest of

:42:54.:43:00.

the day has been hired by the Labour Party to review how the criminal

:43:01.:43:07.

justice system treats witnesses and victims of crime.

:43:08.:43:10.

It has come after a high-profile case where a witness took her own

:43:11.:43:14.

life after giving evidence. We will talk about what can be done to make

:43:15.:43:17.

the court process more palatable. But what is it really like in the

:43:18.:43:23.

witness box? Frances Andrade took her own life

:43:24.:43:27.

last year a week after she had given evidence about a former music

:43:28.:43:33.

teacher who had abused her. We have spoken to a woman who knows exactly

:43:34.:43:37.

what it is like. Last summer, she gave evidence in the trial of a man

:43:38.:43:42.

accused of sexually assaulting her. He was acquitted. We are not

:43:43.:43:46.

revealing her right entity. She is particularly scathing about the

:43:47.:43:50.

judge. The way he treated me was as if he was trying to prove myself. He

:43:51.:43:55.

was not sensitive about the subject matter and had a poor understanding

:43:56.:43:59.

of sexual violence. I was made to feel like I was a little girl and I

:44:00.:44:04.

was wasting his time. Just as bad was the bureaucracy of the court

:44:05.:44:08.

process which made the experience even worse. I had random phone calls

:44:09.:44:12.

from people in the police centre have to speak to me. It was people I

:44:13.:44:16.

have never spoken to before and they said just two days before the trial

:44:17.:44:19.

but there was a great possibility that the date for the trial would be

:44:20.:44:24.

moving. When you have been waiting eight months that is a really,

:44:25.:44:29.

really big thing. The Justice Secretary Chris Grayling has

:44:30.:44:33.

listened. He has published a new version of the victims' code.

:44:34.:44:37.

Victims can read out statements about how they have been affected in

:44:38.:44:42.

court. In some cases, evidence can be pre-recorded. And then there are

:44:43.:44:47.

people like Linda from the charity victim support. She prepares

:44:48.:44:51.

witnesses of all ages for being cross-examined. They will put it to

:44:52.:45:05.

you it did not happen at all. An adult can understand all of that.

:45:06.:45:10.

They have been in that situation and will answer with their own sarcasm

:45:11.:45:15.

perhaps. A child has no idea what any of that means. They will have no

:45:16.:45:21.

tools to counteract that. Witnesses are allowed to have someone like

:45:22.:45:25.

Linda in court. For many victims, it is the nature of the system that is

:45:26.:45:31.

a problem. I felt I was a small part of the thing. They would not have

:45:32.:45:36.

had a case had I not gone through the whole process. We asked the

:45:37.:45:43.

Ministry of Justice about this. A new victims code gives victims the

:45:44.:46:03.

option to read out their personal statement and tell the court how

:46:04.:46:09.

crime has affected them. Barbara is here to discuss this. The code of

:46:10.:46:14.

conduct for barristers has been replaced and we have just talked

:46:15.:46:18.

about the new victims code. Do we need anything else? We do. I am in

:46:19.:46:23.

favour of the work that has already been done but we cannot escape the

:46:24.:46:27.

conclusion that most vulnerable victims do not have the confidence

:46:28.:46:30.

to even come forward to report what has happened to them because they

:46:31.:46:36.

fear the process. When they do come forward, most of them say they will

:46:37.:46:41.

not do it again. I am a big fan of a criminal justice system. I do think

:46:42.:46:45.

that in relation to victims, we cannot go on any more simply saying,

:46:46.:46:50.

that is the way it is, bad luck. We need to take it much more

:46:51.:46:55.

seriously. That is a shocking indictment on the criminal justice

:46:56.:47:01.

system. Some victims have such a terrible experience at some said

:47:02.:47:05.

they would not do it again. Anyone who present in a criminal trial must

:47:06.:47:10.

be treated fairly and appropriately. What does appropriate

:47:11.:47:16.

mean? Anyone who makes an allegation about a criminal offence is not a

:47:17.:47:20.

victim until it has been proved and someone has been convicted. We are

:47:21.:47:24.

in danger of confusing the situation where someone is being asked to give

:47:25.:47:28.

evidence and is there as a witness and the position of someone who is

:47:29.:47:34.

able to be vindicated in court because the jury has accepted the

:47:35.:47:37.

story and may become the victim. There is a huge amount of support to

:47:38.:47:46.

to a European directive. Victims have a charter of entitlements to

:47:47.:47:53.

support them. Do you back that? This is what has been demanded and it has

:47:54.:47:59.

been implemented. It is important to look at the system in its proper

:48:00.:48:04.

context. We have statutes and legislation setting out what the

:48:05.:48:08.

defence can do. We have never had a victims law in this country. That is

:48:09.:48:13.

quite remarkable given the central importance of evicting, something

:48:14.:48:17.

that clearly set out in law that entitlements and makes them

:48:18.:48:26.

enforceable. What sort of Lord you want? They have a right to anonymity

:48:27.:48:34.

in certain types of crime and European Union directive, which sets

:48:35.:48:38.

out their entitlements. They have a Human Rights Act which allows them

:48:39.:48:42.

to participate effectively in these proceedings. They are entitled to

:48:43.:48:45.

special measures when they are vulnerable. I do not understand what

:48:46.:48:49.

more it is they need that they do not have already. Victims say they

:48:50.:48:58.

do not have the confidence to come forward. They said they would not do

:48:59.:49:03.

it again. If you ask most people who have been through the process

:49:04.:49:05.

whether they have been treated fairly, almost all of them would say

:49:06.:49:11.

no. We cannot ignore that. Something has to change. If victims feel they

:49:12.:49:15.

are the ones that have done wrong, I accept your point but until the case

:49:16.:49:21.

has been proven one way or the other... If you are made to feel

:49:22.:49:30.

about the guilty party yourself, it surely the onus is in the wrong

:49:31.:49:36.

place? It is a two-way street. If you are making a very serious

:49:37.:49:42.

accusation, that person will want to defend themselves. These accusations

:49:43.:49:47.

can be unpleasant. They can be about child abuse or rape, which can be

:49:48.:49:53.

devastating. Very difficult if you are a child or a vulnerable woman.

:49:54.:49:56.

That person will want to defend themselves. These accusations can be

:49:57.:49:58.

unpleasant. They can be about child abuse or rape, which can be

:49:59.:50:00.

devastating. Very difficult if you are a child or a vulnerable woman.

:50:01.:50:07.

There are honourable men as well the defence has a right to protest the

:50:08.:50:11.

account. Part of the problem with believing the victim, people go

:50:12.:50:18.

around saying you will be believed, but sometimes people are given an

:50:19.:50:20.

unrealistic expectation that because they are told they will be --

:50:21.:50:29.

believed, they will not be challenged. Sometimes, some people

:50:30.:50:33.

come into court in cases where they are very upset and angry at the

:50:34.:50:37.

thought of what has happened and they asked right and of the thought

:50:38.:50:42.

of seeing this person in court. -- they are frightened. I have given

:50:43.:50:48.

evidence myself and it is stressful. I can understand them

:50:49.:50:53.

feeling they are not being treated there but it can be a mistake in

:50:54.:51:01.

perception. Rights of defence are extremely important. Any case has to

:51:02.:51:09.

be properly tested. I do not think we can go on with the arrangements

:51:10.:51:12.

as they are. It is not just what happens in court. It is the way

:51:13.:51:16.

people are brought in to make a complaint in the first place. It is

:51:17.:51:20.

how they are dealt with and the support they have around them. We

:51:21.:51:24.

need to achieve something we have never been able to achieve before

:51:25.:51:27.

and that is getting better recognition and support for victims

:51:28.:51:33.

without taking away the important rights of the defence. That makes it

:51:34.:51:39.

difficult. I accept that. It requires us to step back and look at

:51:40.:51:43.

the entire set of arrangements from start to finish. That is what we are

:51:44.:51:47.

going through as part of the review I am carrying out for the Labour

:51:48.:51:51.

Party. We are on that journey and I want to include as many people as

:51:52.:51:58.

possible in the process. The victims commissioner said lasted that

:51:59.:52:02.

victims do not always want an offender tried and convicted.

:52:03.:52:05.

Someone the violence and behaviour against them stopped. It is

:52:06.:52:11.

interesting. How far do you go with the public interests in prosecuting?

:52:12.:52:24.

Does the expectation of you winning -- is the expectation of you winning

:52:25.:52:30.

not that high? Sometimes it is appropriate to continue with a case,

:52:31.:52:34.

even if the victim does not want to support it any more, visit may be a

:52:35.:52:39.

pattern of behaviour, it may be ongoing offending. These decisions

:52:40.:52:44.

are best made in individual cases. I am talking about something much more

:52:45.:52:48.

fundamental. We have only really been talking about victims rights in

:52:49.:52:52.

the last 15 years or so. I support all the good work that has been

:52:53.:52:58.

done. I support the code and we need to go further. The barristers code

:52:59.:53:04.

says you must not, humiliate or annoy it witness. Barristers do,

:53:05.:53:13.

don't they? If your defendant Clyde is saying to you, I have never seen

:53:14.:53:18.

this person before, the allegation is made up, they are lying. People

:53:19.:53:22.

think of something says something which is untrue that the other

:53:23.:53:25.

person is intentionally lying. The barrister has to make a judgment.

:53:26.:53:31.

The judge is there to make sure the barrister does not behave improperly

:53:32.:53:34.

or offensively and can intervene. At the end of the day, if someone is

:53:35.:53:41.

saying that did not happen, I was not there, it was not me, that has

:53:42.:53:47.

to be put to the other side. Sometimes people do live. You are

:53:48.:53:50.

carrying out this review for the Labour Party. There has been

:53:51.:53:55.

speculation you could stand to be a Labour MP in 2015. Will you? I gave

:53:56.:54:04.

up the post three months ago. I am considering a number of options.

:54:05.:54:12.

We will watch this space. We have all done it, gone to a

:54:13.:54:21.

search engine to answer a simple question like, how many Tories are

:54:22.:54:25.

rebelling over the Immigration Bill? Or is Father Christmas real? I have

:54:26.:54:31.

not done that one lately. As if by magic, the search engine knows what

:54:32.:54:35.

you are going to say before you type it. It even works with politicians.

:54:36.:54:42.

Here is Giles with more. There are certain gizmos which help you out.

:54:43.:54:48.

Like Google. It has its controversies but it has an

:54:49.:54:52.

interesting function, auto complete. A number of people have pointed this

:54:53.:54:57.

out. If you put in a question like is David Cameron... It will make

:54:58.:55:02.

some suggestions based on the searches which have already gone on

:55:03.:55:07.

under that question. It gives you the answer, is David Cameron

:55:08.:55:12.

Scottish, a Thatcherite, a Christian or dead? In the best tradition of

:55:13.:55:16.

cookery programmes, here are some I made earlier.

:55:17.:55:54.

I have to say, apart from being a bit of a giggle, this tells us

:55:55.:56:22.

absolutely nothing, except that people are obsessed with

:56:23.:56:27.

politicians' marriage status. Let's try this, is Giles still not... Oh,

:56:28.:56:32.

good lord, I will leave it there. That will just entice everybody to

:56:33.:56:38.

have a look. That was just him having a search for his own name. I

:56:39.:56:45.

should say, other search engines are available. With me in the studio is

:56:46.:56:51.

Jim Waterson from Buzzfeed UK. Do you do this a lot? A lot of people

:56:52.:56:57.

are assessed with whether Ed Miliband is made of magnets. I do

:56:58.:57:01.

not know where this is from. We have put it to Labour, they have

:57:02.:57:08.

concerned he is not but said he attracts voters! I wonder how long

:57:09.:57:12.

it took them to think of that. Is it just the most popular search engines

:57:13.:57:18.

which come up. It is a mixture of that. I think there are also a few

:57:19.:57:22.

pranksters who are having fun who are putting lines in code, somewhere

:57:23.:57:27.

hidden on websites, Google is picking up on it and that is doing a

:57:28.:57:33.

feedback loop. For a while, there was something which said is Ed

:57:34.:57:36.

Miliband a suit filled with meringues? I do not think that is

:57:37.:57:42.

actually anything. Have you ever done, is Keir Starmer... ? No! Will

:57:43.:57:53.

you do it now? I do not know. What about Buzzfeed. That is going to do

:57:54.:58:00.

politics? People want to look at fun list and they also want to read

:58:01.:58:08.

about politics and they are not separate. Our audience is anyone

:58:09.:58:12.

interested in politics. Mainly they are young people 18 to 35 at the

:58:13.:58:16.

moment but we get traffic all over the place. How will you do it

:58:17.:58:20.

differently? We have got a lot of things we are working on. The not

:58:21.:58:25.

strung by the old newspaper formats, we do not need to waffle

:58:26.:58:29.

on. That is just as well because we have run out of time. Just time to

:58:30.:58:36.

do the answer to our quiz. Which reality TV show would David Cameron

:58:37.:58:44.

rather be on? I am going to go for Splash. You are wrong. It is The

:58:45.:58:49.

Great British Bake Off. Far safer, he does not have to get into a

:58:50.:58:53.

swimming costume. Thank you to all our guests. Goodbye.

:58:54.:59:02.

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