Browse content similar to 03/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon, and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
A coalition rift opens up over the choice of a new quango king or queen | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
to run the schools inspectorate. Was Michael Gove right to ask its | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
Labour-supporting head to leave? The Prime Minister wants a different | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
relationship with Europe. The French aren't keen. But, can the Foreign | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
Secretary persuade the new German government, or anyone else, of the | :01:01. | :01:01. | |
case for reform? It's a top priority for voters, and | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
a big political issue. But what's the truth about immigration, and is | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
it good or bad for us? It's a tough life as a peer of the | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
realm. We'll reveal the gastronomic faux pas that have the Lords and | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Ladies all hot under their ermine collars. | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
All that in the next hour. With us today is a former diplomat | :01:25. | :01:38. | |
who's now on the advisory council of the pressure group Migration Watch. | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Alp Mehmet, welcome to the programme. | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
First, this morning, to the row over who chairs the education watchdog, | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
Ofsted. The current chair, Labour-supporting Sally Morgan, has | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
not had her period of office extended, and has accused Number Ten | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
of interfering with the appointment, amidst rumours that she is to be | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
replaced by a Conservative supporter. The Liberal Democrat | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
Schools Minister is said to be furious, and has demanded to be | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
consulted over her replacement. This is what Education Secretary Michael | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Gove had to say yesterday. There is a principle across | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
government that there should be no automatic reappointment, and after | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
three or four years, whatever the term is, it is appropriate to bring | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
in a fresh pair of eyes. Joining me now the previous chair of | :02:28. | :02:35. | |
Ofsted, Zenna Atkins. Is failing to reappoint Sally Morgan | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
politically motivated? I think Michael Gove it right in | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
saying a three-year appointment is not automatically renewed. The proof | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
of the pudding comes in seeing who replaces her and whether they go | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
through a fair and transparent appointment process. | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
If she is replaced by a Conservative donor, but that change your mind | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
over whether it was political not to reappoint her? If you can | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
demonstrate, I don't think it matters whether someone is a Labour | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
supporter or Conservative donor. If they have been through a fair and | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
open and transparent process of appointment and I genuinely the | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
right candidate. There are a lot of people who could serve Ofsted very | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
well. As long as they have a relevant background experience and | :03:26. | :03:43. | |
something to add, that is OK. If it is somebody left-field, simply | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
because they were a Conservative donor, it is not acceptable. | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
Isn't it curious that Michael Gove was at great pains at the weekend to | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
say Sally Morgan had done a fantastic job. Superlative, he said. | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
So why let her go? His view is it is useful to have a | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
fresh face at the top. Three years is quite short. Four or five years, | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
usually after that, it is a good idea to bring in someone new. The | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
same applies to most boards. But three years is a short period. There | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
is a difficulty in saying we extend it for one year. They thought it was | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
time to go out for a new appointment after her first term. You surprised | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
by this furore, what is your analysis of that? | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
It is unusual when your term of office, because I have held a number | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
of public appointments, it is unusual to complain at the end of | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
your term of office. Most of us accepts there is a need | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
for change and move on. There have been rumour mills. Partly, people | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
are worried about political appointments. This is on the tail | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
end of quite a few women in public office and seemingly not renewed in | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
their posts. I would really hate to think we are going to take a step | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
backwards into the 1990s when these non-departmental public bodies or | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
quangos are run by men. That would be very unhelpful, diversity is | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
vital. Does this worry use someone like | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Sally Morgan is not going to be reappointed, another woman, to | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
another high-profile role? If this is going to be the general | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
trend, we have started to see this. I am not interested in women on | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
boards for the sake of that. We need diversity, different opinions and | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
experiences. All the research shows this. If we are going back to the | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
dreaded days I will be personally disappointed. Sir David Bell has | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
said Michael Gove should not surround himself with yes-men, a | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
criticism that while Sally Morgan may have generally backed him, now | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
he wants someone who will do it more robustly. That is good advice from | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
David Bell. It is not the issue of yes-men. | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
Ofsted has a unique role to play in public confidence. Unless Ofsted is | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
seen to be independent... It inspects the government framework. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
It must be seen to be doing that without fear or favour, that is | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
essential. Does look like a political decision? | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
I am not close enough to Michael Gove to know but I suspect he is | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
under enough pressure now to ensure there is a proper appointment | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
process. You have said how important it is from a public perception that | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
trust isn't undermined. Do you think now that it won't be | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
seen as independent as it has in the past? | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
No, I don't fear that. There is some work that needs to be done by | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
Michael Gove to demonstrate to the public that the next appointment is | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
fair and transparent. Myself, I went through headhunters, a panel | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
interview, and their work to clear candidates. As long as we see a | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
process like that, I think the public will be satisfied. | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
Disappointment could be taken forward by the office of Public | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
appointments which could give it more distance and transparency. What | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
is your view of the criticisms levelled at Ofsted in terms of the | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
questions they are asking, the way they are carrying out inspections. | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
That preceded this row. There is an inevitability, certainly | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
at the time I chaired Ofsted. There were criticisms then, all the way, | :07:38. | :07:46. | |
because schools get worried. It is easy to say Ofsted says, therefore | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
we can't do this good practice. That is quite common currency. The | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
important thing is the inspection frameworks are seen to be fair and | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
robust. I see nothing to suggest the frameworks introduced by Michael | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
Wilshaw are anything but that. But it is used by schools as an excuse. | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
Does this look political from Michael Gove? Inevitably it will be | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
seen as political. The proof of the pudding will be who is selected, how | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
they perform afterwards, not just who is selected. Quite often it | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
seems to be the right person and we end up with a dead duck. I would | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
like to see someone, give them a couple of years. I am a governor of | :08:36. | :08:43. | |
a school in Hertfordshire. We got an outstanding report from Ofsted. I | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
have no problems. However, it is an area that needs to be thought | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
through carefully. I am sure Michael Gove is doing exactly that. Michael | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
Gove still gets to pick a successor. Why not? Secretaries of State have | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
been picking people who run... The criticism levelled is that it is | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
politically motivated. When I was working in Whitehall and Labour was | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
in office, there wasn't any shortage of political appointees in those | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
days. I don't think that is a valid argument. The Lib Dems are furious, | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
David laws is said to be furious. Is this more about coalition politics | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
than the independence of Ofsted? David laws would say that, wouldn't | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
he? He wants to attract attention. He has a reputation to build | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
himself. It is an opportunity for him to say something to catch the | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
eye and he has done just that. After a busy weekend of Oxfordshire | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
pub lunches with French President Francois Hollande for David Cameron, | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
it's the turn of William Hague to play host today, as new German | :09:52. | :09:53. | |
Foreign Minister Frank Walter Steinmeier is in town. The | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
Conservatives are trying to find some kindred spirits on the | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
continent, as they press ahead with renegotiating Britain's relationship | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
with the EU. It's proving to be a pretty tricky dating show for | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Cameron and co, as they look for a partner in Europe. It didn't get off | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
to the best start, when the Private Members' Bill to legislate for an | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
in-out referendum before 2017 effectively bit the dust in the | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
House of Lords. Meanwhile, David Cameron was trying to win the heart | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
of President Hollande. But he spurned the Prime Minister's | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
advances, saying that EU treaty change was not a priority. The | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
German Chancellor Angela Merkel had been making some encouraging noises | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
for Mr Cameron, suggesting that even this pro-European powerhouse was | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
keen on the idea of reform in certain areas. But Mrs Merkel has | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
just entered her own marriage with new coalition partners, the solidly | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
pro-European Social Democrats. The new Foreign Minister, Frank Walter | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
Steinmeier, is as Social Democrat, and so an unlikely partner for | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
William Hague when they have their own date later today. So, with no | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
match-making success for David Cameron and William Hague in Europe, | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
will the Tories have any success in renegotiations? Or will any | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
referendum in 2017 be a question of "take me out" of the EU on the | :11:15. | :11:26. | |
current terms. Joining me now to discuss this is | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
German journalist John Jungclaussen. And Conservative MP, and member of | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
the Fresh Start group, Tim Loughton. Welcome to you both. How much common | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
ground will William Haig find with Steinmeier on the subject of the EU | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
reform and treaty change? The interesting question for Steinmeier | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
is what it is he should be engaging with. For German politicians and | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
much of the continent, what they hear from Britain is a lot of | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
hysteria. One of the sound bites which stuck with politicians in | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
Berlin was Britain being shackled to the court that is Europe. So there | :12:09. | :12:17. | |
is no positive engagement -- to the corpse. Instead of going to Europe | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
and saying this is what we put forward, all they have said here is | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
they want out. How will you carry on, the government carry on with a | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
negotiation, when all they have heard it hysteria, sound bites and | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
exit. Hopefully by persuading the general press in Germany that this | :12:41. | :12:50. | |
is not our typical attitude. What our group is all about representing | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
the majority of Conservative MPs is a positive version of Europe, which | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
is sustainable for the whole of Europe. The problem at the moment, | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
the EU is not sustainable. Germany knows that, we know that, the rest | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
of the nations need to work that out. If we can work out a way | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
forward where we can stay in the EU, where the EU can become more | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
sustainable. Why do the Germans only hear the test area -- hysteria? Was | :13:23. | :13:34. | |
it a failure of leadership by David Cameron? We are in a difficult | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
position. We have a coalition partner not committed to a | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
referendum. In a limbo. We want to speak to politicians from all the | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
other EU countries to show we are serious about wanting an EU which | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
the UK can stay in and which is sustainable in the global economy. | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
In the next five years, the GDP of the EU will be 60% A level what it | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
was back in the 1990s. Does the German government accept that, the | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
need for negotiation and reform? I am sure Steinmeier doubts. And the | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
SPD? Secretly, certainly. And publicly? We do not know. Steinmeier | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
gave an interesting big speech as Foreign Minister on Friday. He | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
announced his determination to conduct a more engaging, proactive | :14:35. | :14:50. | |
German foreign policy. But that also indicates there might be greater | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
engagement with Britain. If you talk about the difficulties of the | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
Conservative party in the coalition government to talk about the issues, | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
the whole thing seems to be a nationwide diplomatic failure | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
because, what you hear from the Labour Party is nothing that vacuous | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
sentences about wanting to work within Europe. But they haven't | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
committed to a referendum. The public debate not just across Europe | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
but in Britain is dominated by this. What should the starting point for | :15:27. | :15:45. | |
William Hague be? ) give me examples of what he should say. Ultimately we | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
want the UK to stay in the EU. At the moment it is unsustainable. | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
Let's see what the EU should be looking like for the next 20, 30 | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
years and not be shackled by the concept of ever closer union. That | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
is dead and buried. What have you got in common? Angela Merkel says | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
she understands the need for reform but no one is interested in treaty | :16:15. | :16:24. | |
change. The banking union involves treaty change. Is there a | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
willingness to have major treaty change in Germany? No, there is not. | :16:30. | :16:37. | |
Germans want banking union. We are not part of that. Two thirds of the | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
population will be subject to banking union. That can only happen | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
with treaty change. We need to make sure there is no disconnection | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
between those in the EU and those outside of it. There is a bridge to | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
be built. If John is saying the Germans do not want treaty change, | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
on some of the issues I have here and the most recent example is | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
freedom of movement of people, that is a cornerstone of the EU. Is that | :17:05. | :17:17. | |
up for negotiation? Research has identified things which do not | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
involve treaty change. 71% of the GDP of the EU is in services. Any | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
3.5% is into EU country trade. That is crazy. We joined the EU for a | :17:31. | :17:41. | |
single market. Have you spoken to German MPs about that? There is an | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
idea that the single market is something that German politics would | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
wholeheartedly embrace. That is why we help this big conference last | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
month. Business leaders came to the conference where we were talking | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
politics. We were talking about the detail of how we could reform. There | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
was consensus across the 28 nations that Europe cannot go on as it is. | :18:07. | :18:18. | |
Germany is not signed up to renegotiating desk? No. There is | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
every chance of that happening. If we do not get reform of social and | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
Labour laws, if we do not get better, robust financial management | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
of economies, Germany will have to bail out the 77% youth unemployment | :18:36. | :18:44. | |
rate. It is not sustainable. To be fair to Tim, of course, there is a | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
need for Europe to change. We should not pretend that the idea in Europe | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
is prevailing that Europe can continue as it is. There will have | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
to be changes. To what extent they can be incremental and on the muddle | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
through basis, or have to be enshrined in a new treaty within the | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
next two years, which is the way Europe has tended to organise itself | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
over the last few decades, that is another matter. There is movement. | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
What the Germans do not hear is this concrete engagement. How is this | :19:23. | :19:32. | |
conversation going to go? It will not go very well, will it? What | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
everyone seems to have forgotten is the most important factor and that | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
is the people. The people in Germany, the Netherlands and | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
Austria, even France. Free movement was designed for a very different | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
animal than the one we have got now. You need treaty change. That does | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
not seem to be on the table. It was not completely ruled out by | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
President Francois Hollande last week. In Germany, the Christian | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
Democrats and the CSU, their sister party, are much keener than perhaps | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
the Social Democrats are. I think there will be increasing pressure on | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
the politicians to address this issue. Is it all going to be done | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
and dusted, this renegotiation, by 2017? I doubt it. That is the basis | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
by which David Cameron has said the people of Britain can have a | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
referendum on which to decide the future of Europe on the renegotiated | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
settlement. The fact is, if you look at the time scale, to me, I may be | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
completely wrong, but it does not seem possible to get everything in | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
place. Not by the 17th. Eventually it will happen. You think you could | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
do incremental steps but you could not radically renegotiate things | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
around the movement of people, around policing and crime. These are | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
the areas which need to be looked at. Nothing like the prospect of a | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
referendum focuses the mind 's. We have a Conservative government | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
committed to that referendum and all the other nations of Europe will | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
have to take the British position much more seriously and sit down | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
around the table. There is a clear window between 2015 and 2017. You | :21:27. | :21:37. | |
cannot do this in two years. If there has not been a successful | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
renegotiation on the basis of some of your points, which way will you | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
vote? If we have not achieved what we need to for proper reform of | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
Europe, I will vote Labour. It is right that people have that | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
opportunity. That is an honest, straightforward answer to that | :22:00. | :22:10. | |
question. They care not enough to sign up to an idea where Britain has | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
all the rights of EU members without being an actual member. It is not | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
just what we want, it is what Europe needs to be sustainable. Immigration | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
- it's the one of the most important issues for voters along with the | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
economy and, unsurprisingly, politicians take it very seriously | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
indeed. But for something which generates such heat, there's | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
surprisingly little light on the actual facts and figures. It often | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
seems that one person's flood is another's trickle, and both sides of | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
the argument throw stats at each other with gay abandon. So, is it | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
possible to get hard and fast data on the number of people coming into | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
the country and what exactly do we mean by immigration anyway? | :22:50. | :22:58. | |
Immigration, it seems everyone has a view. Do we really know what we are | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
talking about? Is it legal, illegal? Perhaps, more to the point, does | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
anyone honestly know how many migrants are in the country? The | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
only two countries I know of where I reckon they have a pretty good idea | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
of how many migrants go in and come out and stay there illegally, on | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
North Korea and, in the same breath, Australia. In one case there | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
was a particular type of government. In the other case, it is a large | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
island and everyone is clocked in and out. According to the Office for | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
National Statistics comment net migration was 182,000. That is plus | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
or -35,000. The actual number could be anything from 147,000 to 217,000. | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
If the official number crunchers do not know the answer, how can we | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
expect anyone else to? That is based on the passenger survey which, it is | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
claimed for it is not accurate enough. The best way of doing it is | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
a population register. A number of countries have a population | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
register. As soon as you mention the motion of compiling a register of | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
population in the UK, people start thinking about ID cards and | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
invasions of privacy. It becomes politically impossible. It is not | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
just this government that has struggled with the numbers. In | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
2004, Labour claimed there would be 13,000 immigrants from Poland and | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
other European countries. In 2010, net migration peaked at 250,000. Is | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
there a better way of dealing with this? The debate that needs to be | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
handled in a way which gets to the facts. What sort of migration do we | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
want to see? What are the best mechanics we can put in place? Very | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
reportedly, how can we have a system that is good for the country but | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
which people perceive as being fair. There has to be a compromise between | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
the polarised views. The compromise is to look at individual migration | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
streams. That is Labour, asylum, students, family. Look at what we | :25:21. | :25:29. | |
want from each of those migration streams. Where the compromise might | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
be sought. There is nothing new about immigration and nothing new | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
about it being controversial. What is new is how much we do not know | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
about who is coming to the country and why. Joining us now is the | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
Labour MP, Diane Abbott. The Oxford University migration Department has | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
said we cannot make accurate predictions about the number of | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
Bulgarians and Romanians who come to the UK. They know full well that you | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
have to make a judgment. Our judgment has been based on a number | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
of factors. It is not a wild guess. There is no scientific way of | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
establishing what the precise numbers will be. For example, those | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
who have already come over the last five years, comparing income levels | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
between Romania, bog area and the United Kingdom. -- bog area. Have | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
they been like that for the last few years? There have been something | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
like 30,000. That is at a time when there were constraints on those | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
coming here. No one said, we certainly have not said, everyone | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
was waiting on the border to come here on 31st of December. It was not | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
what we were saying. Some of the tabloids may have been saying that. | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
We said, over five years, on average, there would be between | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
30000 and 70,000 a year coming here. A central figure of 50,000. I firmly | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
stick by that. You do not think that will be disproven? Exactly the same | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
thing was said when in 2004 the other Eastern Europeans came in. | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
Everyone said, you are wrong, only a few thousand will come in. Between | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
five and 13,000. In the end, it was a lot more than that. We believe | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
that will happen again this time around. According to a poll | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
conducted by YouGov, the majority think that immigration has been bad | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
for the British economy. Why do they think that? Historically, whenever | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
you have an economic downturn, people are hurting. They look for | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
scapegoats and scapegoats are always immigrants, or others. It is a | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
historical, political phenomenon. The fact is, the same polling | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
company wildly over estimate. The problem with immigration, there are | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
two things which make it to Google to bandy figures. Innovation has | :28:22. | :28:31. | |
always been a euphemism. -- difficult to bandy figures. Some | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
people might be refugees and asylum seekers. My son is a | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
third-generation British national. Do you think people have not become | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
more sophisticated that views on immigration have been influenced by | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
what happened when many Polish people came to this country. If you | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
read about the history of immigration, what they say about | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
Eastern European is what they said about the Irish in the 19th century. | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
The narrative is always the same. I disagree very strongly on that. It | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
is not to do with race. What has changed hugely in my time in this | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
country is that people no longer look at people like Diane and me and | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
say, there is a foreigner. That does not happen any more. You only need | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
to look at football, cricket and any other sporting team to know this is | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
about the volume and the speed with which it is happening. That is not | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
in the interests of anyone, including those already here. Maybe | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
that is true in London. When you are outside of London and he ask someone | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
what they mean by immigrants, they mean Muslims were people who go to a | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
mosque. It is a very emotive subject. Immigration is not now, and | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
whether you are talking about the Jews in the 20th century, it has | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
never been about facts. Why did Labour feel it should apologise? I | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
do not know. We did indeed get that big a wrong on the polls. Wildly | :30:16. | :30:27. | |
wrong. We had no border controls. It was nonsense. Did too many people | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
come over? I have filing cabinets are people under a Labour government | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
who waited years and years to bring husbands, wives and children. It was | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
the Labour administration, I did not approve of it, which took away money | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
from immigrants and gave them vouchers instead. We did not have an | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
open door. The figures about the Polish were wrong but it was not an | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
open door. That is a myth. Finer grid things happened which made it | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
considerably easier for people to come here. -- things did happen. In | :31:02. | :31:11. | |
the first year alone, the public man -- Public Accounts Committee said | :31:12. | :31:13. | |
people who were students actually came here to work. | :31:14. | :31:24. | |
You see things differently. What I seek is the people who didn't get | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
in. Should we be encouraging more immigration? | :31:31. | :31:39. | |
The thing about migration, is not about saying we want more or less. | :31:40. | :31:50. | |
In the EU, we have free movement. Underlying all this is economic | :31:51. | :32:00. | |
trends. James Dyson has launched a scathing attack on immigration | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
policy accusing ministers of turning away bright foreign engineers which | :32:05. | :32:13. | |
the UK desperately needs. This is a nonsense. If you look at the numbers | :32:14. | :32:22. | |
coming here to study at university, they went out last year despite the | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
immigration policies, and the year before they went up. Apart from | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
that, there is an opportunity, Dyson can bring in as many people he likes | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
as long as he pays them enough. We should be training our own people | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
anyway. We can't turn to cheap labour to bring people in. Isn't | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
that the point? It is low-paid people in this country who have | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
suffered more than other parts of the population, because until now | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
they have been undercut. These other people 's labour is bent to be | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
sticking up for. This is the oldest story in the book. The point is... | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
People talk about this as if Eastern Europeans are paying themselves low | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
wages, and employers are innocent bystanders. We need to enforce a | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
minimum wage, reinforce the gang masters legislation, and trade union | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
rights and freedoms. We should not stigmatise migrants. If you want to | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
reduce immigration, you would have to leave the EU. First of all, on | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
that point, I would hate to give the impression I was trying to | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
stigmatise migrants. I don't do that. When we talk about the numbers | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
coming into this country, half a million people a year are coming in. | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
Simply a case of bringing that number down, not stopping it. | :33:58. | :34:06. | |
Time to get our regular Monday update from the Westminster press | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
corps on the big stories of the week. Let's talk to Emily Ashton of | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
the Sun. And Andrew Grice of the Independent. | :34:17. | :34:25. | |
Andrew, coalition tensions seem to have exploded to the surface, the | :34:26. | :34:35. | |
Lib Dems gunning for Michael Gove. Education was an area where the | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
coalition parties cooperated well at the start. In the last few months, | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
we have seen significant differences. The Lib Dems are not | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
happy about unqualified teachers in classrooms and have attacked that. | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
Now, they are livid Michael Gove has not given Sally Morgan a second | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
three-year term. How significant do you see this? In the real world, I | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
don't think people are talking about Baroness Morgan. The Lib Dems are | :35:05. | :35:13. | |
getting cross because they want to differentiate themselves from the | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
Tories in the run-up to the election. David Laws is miffed he | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
wasn't consulted. In reality, what does it matter to real people? When | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
Labour were in power, there were a lot of Labour people at the head of | :35:28. | :35:37. | |
quangos then. The Tory MP selection row now. Meetings are taking place | :35:38. | :35:47. | |
as we speak over Tim Yeo. They want local party members to be | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
accountable, there have been criticisms over the workrate of Tim | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
Yeo. There is a crucial ballot today. Local party members want to | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
make sure they have got an MP totally committed to that area which | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
is a good thing for politics. Is this a sign of The Times, people | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
holding their MPs to account if they don't do their constituency work? It | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
is interesting how Tim Yeo and and Macintosh are both chairs of | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
committees which takes up a lot of time. In the run-up to the election, | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
constituency work becomes more important. Backbenchers will be | :36:34. | :36:41. | |
thinking about this. What about labour reforms? The Labour Party | :36:42. | :36:49. | |
could be poorer as a result of changing its relationship with the | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
unions, is it a price worth paying? I think it is. Some people around | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
Miliband are comparing this to the decision by Tony Blair to scrap | :37:01. | :37:09. | |
clause 4. It is a historic change, union members who want to contribute | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
to funds will have to opt in rather than opting out. That is a | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
significant change. It could be followed in a few years by other | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
changes to the union power base within the Labour Party, their 50% | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
vote at the annual conference, 11 of the 33 seats on the national | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
executive committee. This is the start of a process. This may not be | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
of great interest to the public but could it be, further down the line? | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
It is the effect, will be unions have less influence? We had Len | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
McCluskey saying it was music to his is these reforms were coming in. -- | :37:55. | :38:06. | |
to his ears. Labour will get to contemplate this. | :38:07. | :38:15. | |
It sounds to me as if the unions will not lose much influence at | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
all. They will have less influence. The sort of party Ed Miliband is | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
envisaging is one where you have 200,000 members, ordinary members of | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
the party, which already exists. He was to attract 100,000 registered | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
supporters who don't want to be full members but would pay a small sum | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
and take part in local selections. And perhaps 100,000 trade union | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
affiliated members. That would not mean the unions dominating the | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
party, the ordinary members would. They would become a true one member | :38:55. | :38:55. | |
one vote party. Let's return to education because, | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Michael Gove's been making a speech this morning - he wants the state | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
schools to offer the same quality of education available to private | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
school pupils. More great schools, more great teachers, more pupils | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
achieving great results. The conclusion is English state | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
education is no longer bog-standard, it is getting better and better. | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
When Channel four make documentaries about great competences, academies, | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
in Essex and Yorkshire, when BBC Three makes heroes at tough, young | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
teachers. When even tattler publishes a guide to the best state | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
schools because they are better than independent schools, you know the | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
tectonic plates have started to shift. | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
I've been joined by Labour's Seema Malhotra. Ian Swales for the Liberal | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
Democrats. And the Conservative MP Chris Skidmore who is on the | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
Education Select Committee. Welcome to all of you. We have heard | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
reports, David Laws is so furious with Michael Gove. Why doesn't he | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
say so himself? I think he more or less has said it | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
himself. What we want to see is independent scrutiny of the | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
education system through Ofsted. We don't want someone in there who is | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
in there for political reasons. Why do think that independence will be | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
lost? We don't know. The real test is who | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
Michael Gove will appoint into this role. The suspicion is it will be | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
somebody who is a donor to the Tory party and we feel that make up their | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
independence. You weren't unhappy with a Labour supporting chair? | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
We have to look at the experience of people and Sally Morgan has massive | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
experience and has done a really good job. David Laws is miffed | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
because he wasn't consulted even though here's Schools Minister. Is | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
this a serious coalition bust up? It is a disagreement over this issue. | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
As your reports have said, we are in strong agreement on education with | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
Michael Gove, and support anything he is trying to do. Is there any | :41:10. | :41:16. | |
support for winning votes over this row? I do not think this is | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
particularly party political, we are just trying to do the right thing | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
for education. What is your reaction that the Lib Dems are so angry? It | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
is your reaction that the Lib Dems are so angry? It isn't great if | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
you're coalition partners who have by and large been pretty | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
supportive, now it has all gone in the wind? It is a distraction from | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
the main speech on education today where Michael Gove will set out his | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
clear plans. Lengthening the school day. Increasing standards by making | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
sure what is available to private schools is available to state | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
schools. Sally Morgan has not been sacked, her contract has not been | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
renewed. The Lib Dem donor Paul Marshall will be chairing the | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
selection committee. That will make you happy? Let's see what the result | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
is. We need education screwed -- we need independent scrutiny of | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
education. Your point that you want to offer state school pupils the | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
same as on offer in private schools. An extended school day to allow | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
pupils to attend homework clubs in school. Clear messages when it comes | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
to subject choice, discipline. To ensure that education is the engine | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
of sociability. The too long we have had a clear divide between the state | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
and private sectors. We need to go further to ensure every pupil, | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
particularly from disadvantaged backgrounds, get chances in life. | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
How much more is spent in a private school? That gap is closing. When | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
you take a pupil in Tower Hamlets, ?8,900 per pupil per year. In a | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
private school, ?50,000. Let us broadly say double. Why not just put | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
the money death? We have done. The pupil premium has made sure there is | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
directly targeted funds going to the poorest pupils. We have increased | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
the pupil premium up to ?1400 per pupil. So we are moving the money | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
towards greater standards. Education takes up ?70 billion of public | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
money. We are ensuring we have structures and standards in place. | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
If it's not just about the money and you want to emulate private | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
schools, they have twice as much money per head to play with. Not | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
everywhere. When you look in areas like tower hamlets, they have three | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
times money they have in South Gloucestershire. The private schools | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
have twice as much money per pupil to spend than in state schools. You | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
are asking state schools to do an awful lot with less money. That is a | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
false argument. When you look at private schools, selective grammar | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
schools, they have higher standards. They are also offering subject | :44:30. | :44:37. | |
choices. Things that not all schools are offering. Making that are | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
available. Providing support, continuing professional development. | :44:43. | :44:44. | |
Are you signed up to those reforms? What we have seen is politicisation | :44:45. | :45:03. | |
of the chair of Ofsted. Why has it been politicised? There were heads | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
of public bodies who have been Labour. The question of merit has | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
always been there in relation to public appointments. What is behind | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
some of the reforms and why he is said to Baroness Morgan that she was | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
laid and that is the reason she was not reappointed. The reports are | :45:29. | :45:36. | |
that that is what was said. There is something more fundamental about | :45:37. | :45:38. | |
reforms and what you need in order to drive up standards in schools. | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
What we all know and what research has shown is that improving school | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
standards starts with qualified teachers in the classroom. Michael | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
Gove has not yet answered the accusation that not having qualified | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
teachers in the classroom has the potential to reduce this. If you | :45:55. | :46:04. | |
want to tackle behaviour and look at increasing opportunities for wider | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
learning within school, which we all support, if you want to look at | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
increasing outcomes, what you need is a way to improve school standards | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
through quality teaching. We will pick up your point on quality. You | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
are worried about the politicisation of appointments using the chair of | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
Ofsted as an example. Do you accept that when Labour is in power it | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
stuffed Labour supporting people as heads of all sorts of quangos? We | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
have a graft to show you. You can see the red line chewing the time | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
Labour was in office compared with the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
The Graaf speaks for itself. Even now it is only just coming down, and | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
that is three years after the Coalition Government came in in | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
2010. The issue is about merit. Do you access there were a lot more | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
Labour appointments? What we have always believed in what Labour is | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
asking for is increasing diversity and having talent through increasing | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
number of women, ethnic minorities, to get those voices in and enrich | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
the debate which is a challenge. You are in danger of being criticised in | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
getting rid of someone Michael Gove says is marvellous her job and | :47:26. | :47:36. | |
replacing her. Her contract ran out. People watching this will think, we | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
have the left leaning glitterati, Primrose sect, who believe they are | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
born to quango. That is unacceptable. We need to move away | :47:48. | :47:55. | |
from people who think they can waltz into six-figure salaried jobs. What | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
this is about is Michael Gove reducing the voices that may be a | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
challenge to him. It is a real question about whether or not people | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
voices will be heard within the system and he will really be able to | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
listen to what can go wrong. Do you agree in terms of the general | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
reforms? Better discipline and more discipline in schools? Do you | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
support a longer school day? I do. I also agree we want to see qualified | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
teachers in schools. Schools should not be run for profit. Within the | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
coalition, we have been battling to make sure the school system works | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
effectively. I also believe the point about quangos, I would like to | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
see a lot less tribalism all round. There are lots of people out on the | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
street who are not aligned to any political party, who have great | :48:51. | :48:58. | |
merits. The problem about qualified teachers will not go away. The | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
Liberal Democrats and Labour will fight you on this. How do you define | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
a good teacher? Slapping a badge and saying, you have qualified teacher | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
status, does not make you a good teacher. 15,000 people have this | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
status and they are appalling teachers. They need to be removed | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
from the classroom. You have missed the point. Teaching is a far more | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
complex job and being able to deliver. You need to establish | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
better techniques for managing behaviour. How you manage it in a | :49:32. | :49:39. | |
positive way. How you deal with children who could be from all sorts | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
of backgrounds. Children who go to school hungry in the mornings. There | :49:44. | :49:55. | |
are increases in food banks. We have been working with the teaching | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
profession on trying to seek continual development. Every | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
profession is looking at developer and opportunities for their own | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
members. I want to challenge the point from Chris about why it is | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
irrelevant to be talking about food banks. If children are going to | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
school hungry, they tend to be more aggressive, tend to need calming | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
down. What you need to look at holistically is the welfare of | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
children will stop -- the welfare of children. Teachers need to have | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
experience and training to deal with a whole range of issues for | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
children. I agree about the wider issues of children. We have | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
introduced the pupil premium and free school meals for younger | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
children. We know that educational attainment is linked to resources, | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
particularly in deprived areas, and also to being welfare. We totally | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
support that. Is alienating the teaching profession really the way | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
to go? I disagree. As a result of the reforms, changes in PGCE, we are | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
having new, young teachers coming into schools. Four times as many | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
graduates will start than in 2010. We are actually revolutionising and | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
bringing in excellent, young teachers. Tomorrow, Labour 's NEC | :51:30. | :51:39. | |
will meet to approve plans to reform Labour's relationship with the trade | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
unions. A review commissioned by Ed Miliband is proposing abolishing the | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
Electoral College that gives unions a third of the vote in leadership | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
contests and introducing one member, one vote. Union members will be able | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
to decide whether to donate to the party which would give them the | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
right to participate in any leadership ballot. Here's how the | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
General Secretary of the GMB union reacted to the changes on | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
yesterday's Sunday Politics. It is certainly a big, bold move, | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
certainly in terms of the electoral college. That elected him in the | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
first place. Everybody really admits that has needed reforming for some | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
time. And moving to a one member, one vote situation. That seems to me | :52:20. | :52:28. | |
to be a sensible idea. I know some people are upset about it, mostly | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
MPs, who will lose their golden share. It really is nonsense that | :52:33. | :52:40. | |
one MP should have the same voting strength as 1000 party members. Are | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
you upset about it? It seems the real losers are Labour MPs. It is a | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
really exciting change. My vote should be the same as any other | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
members in the party. What this change will do, I believe, will | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
route these reforms, route the party much more in with the British | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
people, in which workers who are members of unions, and who actually | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
have not had an individual relationship with the Labour Party. | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
This is about strengthening and reforming the links between the | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
trade unions and Labour. Someone like me, I think it is right, I | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
should have one vote rather than a vote as a member of Parliament, | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
about the trade union member, a vote of the Fabian Society member and a | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
boat as an individual. But he will have less safe. -- a vote. -- but | :53:31. | :53:44. | |
you will have less say. It is about saying, if you want politics that is | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
engaging so many people quite unique in way in which you are opening the | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
doors and increasing access. I was speaking to a Conservative MP who | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
said that if you can make this work, it will have implications for us | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
all. We will come on to the effects on other parties. Criticism has | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
always been about union influence whether leadership elections or | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
conferences, or whether it is policy platforms. Actually, that will not | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
change. That is why he is looking so relaxed in talking about these | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
changes. His power will not be reduced, it? Unions represent | :54:24. | :54:31. | |
millions of working people. These criticisms have been levelled at | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
Labour, saying they have too much influence. The Labour Party has | :54:39. | :54:46. | |
changed. It has changed over the last 100 years. To say you are | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
allowing collective affiliation of units but changing the way in which | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
individuals can have a greater say has be reformed in line with what we | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
have today. You keep going on about Ed Miliband and the Labour Party | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
being controlled by union barons. You cannot say that any more. Len | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
McCluskey said, this is music to my ears. Ed Miliband will love it as | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
well. He was elected by the unions in the first place. Why not say, for | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
every person who is a member of the Labour Party, they get one vote? Why | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
should unionists get an extra vote for ?3? I am on the policy board and | :55:30. | :55:38. | |
I do not know of any donors who have influence. In comparison to the | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
unions, who really have Labour 's arms twisted behind their back... I | :55:46. | :55:54. | |
get a very good strapline but it is not the reality. Lib Dems looked at | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
this with mild amusement. We have always had one member, one vote for | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
the leader. The devil is in the detail on the union issue. Union | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
leaders are quite relaxed about it. If they organise well, they only | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
have to get one in ten members to affiliate, have a bigger say in who | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
the next leader of the next Labour Party -- of the Labour Party is. On | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
funding, it poses a problem. Whether it is right or not, that is for | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
others to judge. Whether you are routinely Labour Party more firmly | :56:34. | :56:35. | |
in the minds of working people, financially, it is going to cause | :56:36. | :56:43. | |
problems. This is a choice and a risk. The majority of funding | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
already comes from individual members. If you want to do the right | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
thing, sometimes you have to take a small hit. Over a period of time, we | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
will see these changes making the Labour Party a stronger and more | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
sustainable party. It is that there are a more democratic party. Now, it | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
is a hard life in the House of Lords, although they enjoy tax-payer | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
subsided restaurant and bars. It seems dining standards are slipping. | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
A rather mischievous FOI request has revealed peers' complaints about | :57:13. | :57:14. | |
catering in the Upper Chamber. They were seriously unimpressed by the | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
quality of a new coffee machine. As one wrote, you could not have | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
calculated a move more likely to spread ill will. Another complained | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
a 15 minutes wait to be seated lost some of the finesse of the afternoon | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
and, sadly, meant his guests didn't have enough time to eat the | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
beautiful cake selection. But some concerns were more prosaic - and | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
pedantic. A note requested canteen staff to stop asking whether we want | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
butter on jacket potatoes when what they mean is marge. Your response? I | :57:39. | :57:47. | |
think the whole thing should be taken into the private sector. This | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
whole debate around subsidies and is therefore not go away until we | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
remove taxpayer funding for the catering service. The thing is, we | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
have eventually got to come to some further reform. Should they be | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
complaining? It is all about lowering the costs of the way the | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
Houses of Parliament work. As a new MP, I was quite surprised with some | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
of what I saw. I have already been lots of changes. It is a strong | :58:16. | :58:26. | |
argument in the House of Lords. There is a real concern about some | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
of the points that were raised. It does make the House of Lords look | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
quite out of touch, particularly with what the country is going | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
through, in terms of some of those complaints. The staff across the | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
House of Commons and the House of Lords work incredibly hard and a | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
huge amount of pressure. We need to separate some of these issues out | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
and give them credit for what they do. I think the food is very good in | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
the House of Lords. Thank you to all my guests. The one o'clock news is | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
starting over on BBC One now. Bye-bye. | :59:01. | :59:04. |