07/02/2014 Daily Politics

Afternoon folk, welcome to the Daily Politics. Floodwaters continue to

rise and so does the anger of people, as houses and fields have

been under water now for weeks. Are they paying the price for

Government and agencies too slow to act?

To clear your -- declare your love for Scotland the Prime Minister

tells the tens of millions of Brits without a vote in September's

Independence Referendum. Do the people of England, Wales and

Northern Ireland share the Prime Minister's passion?

A senior US diplomat in Ukraine apologises following an apparent

four letter outburst about the European Union. Just undiplomatic

language or signs of a deeper rift? And to infinity and beyond. Are the

billions ploughed into the European Space Agency money well spent?

So all that in the next hour, with us for the next half hour and firmly

on planet earth is the journalist and broadcaster Anne McElvoy, fresh

from her skiing last night. I am happy to be in a warm studio. Your

legs are intact? Just about. We sent her to hemle help stead, we couldn't

afford Sochi. The National Union of Teachers have announced a one day

strike in England and Wales over pay and conditions. It will be held on

the 26th mar. The other big teacher union the NASUWT is considering

whether to support the action. We are joined by the General Secretary

of the NUT Christine Blower. Welcome to the programme. Good afternoon.

You have been in talks with Michael Gove to try and avoid this strike

but it is a three year running dispute, is that right? We haven't

been in talks with Michael gov Gove, we had a meeting with imon October,

with civil servants or October 14th when we were offered Taub, since

then there have been no meetings and no talks. We would very much like

there to be talks, in order to resolve this dispute, because

clearly it has been going on much too long, and obviously things are

not good for teacher, so we would like to be involved in the talks at

the moment there maybe the offer only so talks for the unions but as

Francis O'Grady said, you, you resolve a dispute with the parties

to the dispute, so we need talks with Michael Gove, with ourselves

and the NASUWT. At the moment they are not on offer. It is about

performance-related pay. Am I not right in thinking that is a mer of

principle, you are against that? It is not all about that, it is about

workload and pension, the fact is many aspects of teacher's pay are

performance-related, but we are opposed to the linking of the new

appraisal scheme with the fact national pay arrangements have been

demolished. The fact 74% of teachers say morale has declined suggest they

are not happy either. So it is important that Michael Gove gets

round the table with ourself, and talks with us to resolve these

disputes. Are you in a position to negotiate over performance-related

pay? We are in a position to negotiation over what pay should

look like, as I say to you, the fact that teachers already have to pass

an induction year, in order to stay in the profession, so there is an

element of performance in there. What we cannot have is teachers' pay

linked to individual student performance, and the reason reason

we can't have that is there is no interhagsal evidence suggesting that

improves things for individual students. So there is no point in

having that -- international. What does the Education Secretary have to

do get you to call off the strike, at least temporarily? Well, of

course we have already called off strike action. When we went into the

initial phase of talks on October 14 th with civil servant, we didn't go

on strike, on November 27th. We thought talks were forthcoming. What

the Secretary of State has to do is engage in serious talks with us

about pay, pensions and conditions of service, but also, he has to not

make any damaging changes to teachers' conditions in the

forthcoming STRV report. We are prepared to stand down strike

action, but I think the Secretary of State needs to know that teachers'

morale is poor at the moment and they need to see quite a lot of

changes. If Mr Gove was here, is this, this strike, what he would

call the behaviour of the blob? I don't know what he would, there are

a lot of people included in the blob. Are you in the blob? I think

you are. Sometimes I am, sometimes I am not. I am actually very pleased

to be associated with a lot of people who are in the blob, but I

have to say, it is not the case that in other jurisdictions that

Education Ministers go round insulting people who are really

engaged and enthusiastic about education. Professors of education,

leaders of teachers' unions and so on. Thank you, we will keep an eye

and see what happens. Now we did obviously have to speak

to an Education Minister but none was available. They probably got

lost in the blob. I suspect that Mr Gove, I mean, he thinks, he clearly

thinks the NUT is part of the problem, not the solution. And isn't

that interesting -- interested in negotiating. He thinks they are tout

stop everything he wants to do, as they attempted to stop much of what

Mr Blair wants to be He think think are the enemy. Also he think, this

is a difficult question, he doesn't think they really, intend to prevail

any way, they throw up strikes which are hugely inconvenient for parents,

they disrupt children's education but they tend not to get what they

want. I think he thinks they won't this time. All this talk about pay

and performance pay, British teacher, teachers in England because

we are in different situations in Scotland and Wales, they are pretty

well paid, and they have got better paid, rightly, in my view, I should

say, in the last ten years, and if you look at the OECD, you break down

the amount of pay for time spent actually teaching in the classroom,

Britain, England I keep saying Britain, I am into the next debate

about Scotland already, England scores well, comes in about fourth

place in the international league tables so it is not as if there is a

major pay problem, one understands while unions will try to get the

best deal for their member, but if they link it to resisting bigger

changes to reforms they won't have a lot of purchase on the Secretary of

State. Let us see what happens. Now on the

eve of the Winter Olympics in Sochi, the opening ceremony is tonight,

David Cameron has been at the Olympic Park in London, the scene of

our wonderful opening Olympics in the summer of 2012. He was making a

speech designed to encourage those on these islands who are not

Scottish to let the Scots know they don't want a divorce. The haven't

use chosen because at the Olympics we all compete as Brits and the

Prime Minister has been invoking the spirit of Team GB to argue the case

for the union. This is what he has had to say.

This is our country, and we built it together. Brick by brick. Scotland,

England, Wales, Northern Ireland. Brick by brick. This is our home,

and I could not bear to see it torn apart.

I love this country. I love the United Kingdom, and all it stands

for. And I will fight with everything I have to keep us

together. Passionate defence of the union from

the Prime Minister. No sooner had he finished than Alex Salmond gave his

response. This is it. The main thing is this a speech delivered from

London, telling people in England what to do, but arguing against

Scottish independence, instead of a debate that the Prime Minister must

do in Scotland, a debate with me, as First Minister of Scotland about the

pros an cons of his argument against independence. Well, that was the

First Minister saying things. We are joined by Rory Stewart. The Prime

Minister has been criticise for not delivering this speech in Scotland,

but this was a speech to the non-Scot, so I understand why he did

this in England. But at some sage he has to go to Scotland. At some

stage, she the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he has to get

involved, if he wants to defend the union, he has to go there, and

defend it. Yes, the Prime Minister I think will be going to Scotland but

the main thing is the grass roots emotion of this whole thing. It is

about showing that the English, the Welsh, the Irish are committed to

Scotland, love Scotland, care about Scotland. Do they? What is the

evidence? I am hoping to gather thousands of people linking arms

along the forkeder. I would like a chain of lights and I would like do

you join us. Show affection for the union. We cover political

demonstrations. In what way in your view would the rest of the UK be

diminished if Scotland left? In almost every way, to lose a third of

your country. To loose Edinburgh, the Highlands, hundreds of years of

shared history will make us embarrassed in the face of the

world. You don't think it matters or you think the rest of the UK might

be better off if Scotland left? I am sure if the appeal is to economics

than motion, and it seems the Prime Minister was appealing to emotion,

Rory is talking about our sense of history, if you are a boring

economist like me and you want to crunch the number, I am certain it

would be in England's very narrow self-interest. Where is the evidence

for that? If you look at transfers from the relatively more affluent

English to the poorer Scot, the high levels of public spending, the

Barnett Formula, it is clouded by oil, and the price of oil going up

and down. It is not slightly clouded by oil revenue, it is almost exactly

matched by oil revenues. Yes, but the question is when do you measure

the oil revenues? The oil price goes up so much. Take oil at $100s a

barrel which is lower than now. You have to decide how much belongs to

the Scots. Under international law that is clear. It is about 90%. If

you look at the size of the public sector in England and certainly in

London and the south, comparing to that in Scotland, it is

substantially smaller in England, if you look at the... The public sector

in Scotland is no bigger than in the north-west or the North East It is

away beyond London and the south-east, so I think the English

would be Bert off. I am not sure narrow self-interest should be the

ace of trumps. Scotland could be better off. Being less depeb dent on

England than it is at the moment. More in control of their... What do

you say to that? In the end everything comes down to identity

and confidence. More serious economists than I could be, my sense

is it very difficult over 100, 200 years to think about what nation go,

a lot is to do with confidence, your commitment to your country. The US

doesn't sit round thinking we would be richer if we lost Texas or if a

few years. Or Alabama I think there is a divergence in political

culture, south and north of the border. I was looking at the figures

today, without Scotland the Labour Party would not have one a UK

general election between 1950 and 1997. They would not have won, they

would have won in 1997. That is not true. Your figures are wrong. Labour

won England in 199 -- 1966. I don't think they would have formed a

majority. They would have done. In 1966 they won England. We would have

had a Conservative majority Government, the majority of about 19

or so. How many Tory MPs are there in Scotland? One. It used to be

half. Things can change. What you have seen is a divergence. Scotland

wants a centre-left approach, and England generally leans to a centre

right approach. If you have divery gent view, perhaps splitting... We

have to let Rory in. One of the great channels is to get out of

conversation between politicians and with respect economist, it is

interest you said people linking arms along the border would be a

political statement, I think it is not really politics, this is the

whole identity of your nation. One of the things that is making me very

tructed at the moment, is -- troubled at the moment, is the sense

no up ins in Britain are prepared to come fourth the UK, in the US if

Texas wanted to separate I would imagine you would get ten million

people joining arms to hold the country together. I think there is

other than the Sunday herald, which has a small circulation there is not

a single paper coming out for independence in Scotland. They are

remaining neutral. Even come to a general election, the editorial

endorsement don't come until a couple of days before. This is the

whole future of the United Kingdom. It is very strange that, and this is

clever the Scottish Nationalists have done, made it seen as if it's a

party political issue. It is the whole of the United Kingdom. The

most important constitutional question for 400 years. It is

certainly true that it is more likely to get a Labour Government if

Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom, I mean there wouldn't have

been a Labour Government in 64, there would in 66. There probably

wouldn't have been a majority Labour Government in 2005, either. That bit

is true, as well. But you know, if you are a Republican sitting in

Washington, you would say without California and without New York, and

without new England and without Massachusetts we would have a

permanent Republican majority, but no American is going to say that.

The USA is much more dotted around. Some states will always vote

Democrat. Maybe London and the south-east should go independent. It

would be the Richard Prince in Europe! -- richest province. They

could be a rather different build-up. The distinction between

two different nations, two different nations, is that stark. It used to

be, certainly foremost the 20th century, the political culture of

Scotland and England were a light it. They were similar. In 1955, the

Tories got a majority of the vote in Scotland. It was only 50.1%, but it

was a majority. It is clear they have been going in separate

directions in recent decades. Absolutely. That is true, of

course, of parts of northern England and parts of other cities. We have

got to accept there are different national cultures. We are not

denying that. It is what makes the UK great. We have diversity. It also

would be mistake if people fantasised that Scotland leaving

would lead to a 1-party government. People hate 1-party governments.

That would last for a few years. He is just saying it would be less

likely, a Labour government. The you should not support the constitution

of your country to favour one party or another. My observation would be

that typically the English, over recent decades, are voting towards

the centre right. Typically, the Scots are voting to the centre-left.

That can cause tensions if one of them enormously outweighs the other.

When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, you got a lot of animist

in Scotland. The potentially build-up English animus if the

English Labour Party in winning elections. To somebody with her

Scottish name. I am a Borders girl! Do you think it matters to how

Scotland will vote if, if as Mr Cameron says, the English say, don't

go. It depends if you can put that across. It is a sense that this

really is something we all feel something together about, other than

nationalists. I noticed the Prime Minister's tone, which was almost a

Hugh Grant moment, this is a real sign of worry in number ten that

there is desiccated discussion, led by Alistair Darling, on fiscal pros

and cons, is not going home and doing the job. He has got the

difficult task. You can get up and say, as a Southerner and a

Conservative, please, don't go. People might say, why should I

listen to you? If you want to hold the UK together, you have to do

that. I am sceptical about linking arms. That is my idea of hell. The

borders are beautiful place! Yes, but we barely linked arms with our

own families. The idea is right, if not the device. The majority of the

rest of the UK once Scotland to stay. That figure gets higher in the

North of England. Absolutely. I am on the border. We would be

heartbroken. These are family, not just neighbours. We would like them

to remain that. We want to show that we think that by linking arms on the

19th of July. Fair enough. It was one of those moments when

politics was briefly put on hold: the death of the popular Labour MP

Paul Goggins at the start of the year. But normal service has been

resumed now that there's a by-election underway in his seat of

Wythenshawe and Sale East. Adam's been to the enormous housing estate

in the South of Manchester to see what's going on.

What is within sure famous for? At one point it was the largest housing

estate in the whole of Europe. At another, part of it was declared the

most deprived council ward in the whole of England and Wales. At yet

another, it is a place where pre-prime minister real David

Cameron had a photo opportunity ruined by a guy doing this.

Yes, that's the one. Now for this by-election the media has descended

again from all over the place. Is Britain going to get out of the

European Union? Any indication that UKIP can do in a Labour area would

be very interesting. What are your first impressions of Wythenshawe? It

is a beautiful place. Here is the source of the excitement, the UKIP

candidate is a local businessman. Last time, the party were beaten

into forth by the BNP. Now they are aiming much, much higher. Talk me

through the leaflet. We want to point out to voters that the Labour

front bench is made up of people who are paper millionaires or actual

millionaires. Most of them have never had a real job. They went to

use a real job. They went to use it -- University, got a job in the

research department of the party, got parachuted into a safe seat and

now they are on the front bench trying to claim they represent the

working class. Labour's candidate stresses his local roots, too.

Manchester City's season ticket is proof. They rest in -- reckon UKIP

aren't in the same league. We are talking about the A crisis at the

hospital. We are talking about the cost of living. We are talking about

the unfair council tax -- cuts. Cuts are on the minds of the month at the

toddler group. I'm a local mum. I value these services. I stood there

and I protest it and I'm a speech after speech at the council in

Manchester against Labour's cuts. Here, the Tory candidate is focusing

on dog mess and potholes. Your party is in turn down the street and you

are talking about these things. I believe if you get the small things

right, you can get the big things right. There is a national

responsibility as an MP. But I want to be a local champion. I want to

represent them on the issues they are talking to me about. If I am

honest, the streets of Wythenshawe are not in the grip of by-election

fever, but the result will tell us whether UKIP can take votes from

Labour. Until now, they have mainly been holding a gun to the heads of

the Tories. Sorry, couldn't resist seeing the picture one wartime.

Add us to indulge himself. And a full list of candidates

standing in the Wythenshaw Sale East by-election is on your screen

now. For analysts, the only thing of

interest is who comes second. We'll UKIP beat the Tories into second

place? Indeed. It is not just a question of whether they edge one

way or another, although that is important. Also commit to the manner

in which they do so. Does it look like this is part of an unstoppable

UKIP march the type that... And I would say, some Labour politicians

have woken up to the fact that UKIP is eating into their territory, too.

It doesn't look like being a problem for the Labour successor in

Wythenshawe. But it could impact on the next general election. But it

could be we have got too excited. The UKIP bubble could burst and we

will see them doing OK but it will not be the next big thing. We shall

see. Let's turn to the flooding because,

with more heavy rain overnight, the flood waters have continued to rise.

Let's get the latest now from Chris Eakin, who's in the Village of

Burrowbridge on the Somerset Levels. What is happening there?

Hello. This is one of the approach roads to the village, which is again

flooded by water. It has become a veritable island. It was one that

was put on for several days, one which became almost the heart of the

political battle as to whether enough was being doing -- done on

the Somerset Levels. A phenomenal 24/7 operation to build temporary

barriers around the village, but some of those were breached in the

night. It has cut off all but larger vehicles. Overall, the Somerset

Levels are struggling very hard to contain the flood water. Don't be

fooled by the respite in the weather. It takes about ten hours

from when it rains for the rivers. A very worrying weekend ahead.

Chris, we only see the pictures. It never seems to get better for the

people there. In all of these flooded areas and we see houses

either flooded or surrounded by water, have the people being

evacuated? Or are they still having to stay in situ? They are living

through this, living, essentially, in the middle of a lake. It is not

everybody. Until yesterday, the Environment Agency were saying that

around 40 properties had actually been flooded. So, a relatively small

number given the many miles of flooding. One of the problems is the

threat to people. If you take the village I was talking about, you are

right, because two days ago, the police helicopter was up in the air

like something from a Hollywood movie, instructing people to leave.

Around half of the village, about 300 people, decided to stay. In the

early hours of this morning, they went out in a dramatic fashion. Now

we estimate about 20 or 30 remain there. It is not just the fact you

are flooded. It is the stress of watching the water just get closer

and closer to your property and the temporary barriers trying to hold

back the force of nature and then eventually succumbing. We have

spoken to a lot of people the tree into yesterday, and not just house

owners but farmers, too. Over my left shoulder, a farmer was close to

tears, saying he would have to give it all up. Do people feel abandoned

by central government, by the powers that be down there? You have used

the exact words. A lot of people say they feel forgotten. At the moment,

we have got Chris Smith, Lord Smith, the Minister and Labour government

chair of the Environment Agency. He is at a wetland Centre a few miles

away. It is a very controlled environment, this meeting. The can

understand why. There is a huge amount of anger in the Somerset

Levels. If we have got time, I can show you why. Here are two rivers

that keep coming up in the House of Commons. This is the River Tone full

stop behind this grass corner is the River parrot. We are at the

confluence. The argument is... If you look behind me you can see the

flood plain isn't -- is lower than the river. The Environment Agency is

not dredging enough, that is the argument. They have at the limit

since the mid-90s. You will struggle to find a single person on the

Somerset Levels who agrees with that policy. They all say dredging should

be carried out. Chris, thank you very much with that. At the end

there, he explained what has been the difference between the experts

in London and the people who are also expert on the ground. Because

this is below the flood plain, it was originally dredged by Dutch

engineers all these years ago. They think, as they do in Holland, it has

to be costly dredged. But the Environment Agency and others in

London say no, no, we are not going to do that. That is the problem. It

was interesting to see that Mr Cameron will take all possible steps

and nothing should be ruled out. Frankly, I think he would love a

reversal of policy by the Environment Agency. Whether that is

forthcoming, we don't know. If people really feel they are at the

sharp end... It is becoming a national trauma. Mr Cameron doesn't

look like he was on it. Tony Lee, he was late. There is sent he is

playing catch up. I don't think Christmas will be the most popular

man in that part of the world. If you have one of these agencies, it

is unlikely you are the only person who has pushed it through. But you

are right to put your finger on this point about dredging. In the end,

this is something government is going to have to take a view on.

Simply saying, well, it is a funny quango who put it in somebody's

hands, that won't do. Now, if you're a Liberal Democrat

supporter, you're probably a fan of TV shows like this.

That was Red Dwarf, how we do know that Liberal Democrats like sci-fi?

Well YouGov have done the research, and Freddie Sayers who is part of

the YouGov, he joins us now. So there are distinct programmes that

Tory, Labour and Liberal Democrats like? There are. We did analysis

involving over 70,000 people, comparing their favourite TV

programmes with their political affiliation. Let us put the Tory

list up. The results, what a surprise Downton Abbey. They are on

stereotype there. Spook, that is modern. Hawaii 5-0. Why should

Tories like that? That is a good yes. What does that tell us, if you

were a Tory strategist, what is the lesson from that? As we will see

from the Labour list, the two main parties came up pretty much on

stereotype there. I mean... Coronation Street. For Labour.

Coronation Street and Peter Kay's Phoenix Nights.

Mad men, that is very interesting as a Labour top ten: They have been

full of it for years. Frazier. It is more unVarnished vision of Britain:

It is kind of slightly more Britain 21st century. There is something

kind of acceptia tinted about the Tory top ten list. -- sepia. There

we go. This is striking, the others were pretty much as you would

expect. But it is hard sometimes to know what a stereo typical Liberal

Democrat looks like. It is all over the place. Looking at the top one

hundred, there are two strong themes that come through, the first is this

bizarre connection to sci-fi. Or perhaps not! Fully 17 of the top 100

Liberal Democrat programmes are in some way sci-fi or future risty

while only two for the kith, so there is a sense of a kind of

alternative future, other worldly. They have got Have I Got News For

You. That shows they have a bit of a sense of humour. That is the second

important thing about that. They like futurarama. A cartoon. We count

that as sci-fi. What do you make of it? It is fascinating. I love the

Liberal Democrats are other worldly creatures from the planet X. They

have a sense of humour. Mock The Week, The IT Crowd. I wouldn't mind

staying in with the Liberal Democrat selection. The Tory one is very

backward looking, nothing wrong with a nice night in with Downton and a

large glass of something, but it is didn't things to be marvellous, when

Duchesses were Duchesses, Labour, the interesting thing you said, they

are picking apart at the early 21st century, trying to make sense of it.

And for reassurance they want to watch Coronation Street, and... To

show their roots. I think that is interesting. There is something

about all three parties that is nicely categorised in this. The

response we got. We published it a few days ago, the response from

Liberal Democrats has not been you are taking the mickey, there has

been a enthusiasm, saying yes we do like sci-fi, we are Liberal

Democrat, it is a a real better different future we want to believe

in, an alternative. Here is the question. Where did the Daily

Politics appear? It is not identified with any of the three

parties. Don't you think that is a triumph? We would not want to be on

any party list. Your recredentials have held up. It will be interesting

to see if the party managers get any campaigning line-out of that. That

is a fascinating poll. Now, it has just gone 12.30. Coming up our

regular look at what is going on in European politics, time to say

goodbye to Anne McElvoy. So, for the next half hour, we are

going to be focussing on Europe, we will be discussing EU relations with

the US UK, whether the eurozone crisis is over, and the role of the

European Space Agency. First, here is our guide to the latest from

Europe, in just 60 seconds. Italy's President was given a hard

time in the European Parliament in Strasbourg by Italian MEPs. Members

of the Northern League said where to stick the euro. Handbags of a

different sort. In addition to carry on luggage innow includes, a coat,

duty free and a handbag. Italy joined Britain in having some truly

dreadful weather. The river burst its banks causing

flooding in floor rans. Gasps as the Home Affairs commissioner described

European Union corruption as breathtaking. She put it at more

than 120 billion euros, or the size of the EU's entire annual budget,

and as attention turns to the Winter Olympics in Sochi, MEPs have been

having a gay old time debating relations with Russia, they want

Vladimir Putin to chill out and leave the Ukraine alone.

And with us for the next 30 minutes are var are Ludford and David

Martin. Let us start by talking about the flooding, because you have

for want the European Union to get involved with funds to help, tell me

what would you would like them to do There is an EU Solidarity Fund. We

have called op the UK Government to make an application for these funds,

because you know, what is not to like about getting some EU support

for our hard-pressed citizens and taxpayers? I am told that the, you

can only get help from this fund if the direct costs exceed three

billion euros or 0.6% of our gross national income, and that is, we are

not there. That is a national threshold. You can get money

regionally, and the, there are hoops to jump through, but the obviously

the thresholds are lower for a region. The government has declined

to do that, which is disappointing, and I hope that Owen Paterson will

change his mind on that, but we are encouraging local councils to apply

for another pot of EU money which commissioners confirm they could do,

so it seems to us why look a gift horse in the mouth? A lot of people

in the Somerset Levels will say that Europe has been part of the problem,

why they are in this mess, because a long with the Environment Agency

they have been anti-dredging, they have made it more difficult to

dredge. European rules have made it more difficult. What do you do with

the soil once you dredge it? They would like the money but they are

not feeling very warm. Firstly on the money issue, Labour in 2007 got

164 million out of the European Union for if floods we had in that

year. The reason we are not applying and the Liberals can't escape

responsibility for this, Danny Alexander is the Treasury minister

and it affects the rebate and we lose a third of that through the

rebate, so they are nervous about anything that detract trs the

rebate, but in terms of European responsibility, I don't think you

can blame Europe for the rain and floods. No, that is an aunt Sally,

that is not what I said. Will is a huge argument over dredging policy

and the EU has backed the line of the Environment Agency... I don't

think it prescribes to national and regional agencies how they might,

they don't micro manage in that way. What do you do with the soil? That

is a different matter. You have to do an environmental impact study. It

is the Environment Agency that decided this study, their view, that

dredging shouldn't happen, not the EU. Right. OK. Now, a year since the

Secretary of State -- a Secretary of State has apologise apologised after

using less than diplomatic language about the role of the EU.

Pro EU protestors have been demonstrating, for months after the

Ukrainian Government decided odd a deal with Russia, instead of

pursuing closer ties with the EU. Catherine Ashton has taken a

prominent role in attempting to diffuse the crisis and she met with

the Ukrainian President just yesterday. In the telephone

conversation between the Americans it seems to have leaked from a

Russian source, there is a surprise! The US diplomat appears unimpressed

with the EU's efforts So than great, I think to help glue this thing and

have the UN help glue it and (BLEEP) the EU. Exactly, I think we have to

do something to make it stick together, because you can be sure if

it does start to gain altitude, the Russians will be working behind the

scenes to try to torpedo it. Now the US has refused to confirm or deny

the authenticity of recording but a State Department spokeswoman said "I

didn't say it was inauthentic." Victoria Nuland has been in touch

with her EU counterparts to apologise for "The reported

remarks." So why would you apologise if you haven't done something, what

is your reaction? It is unfortunate wording, but obviously the Russians

are trying to divide the US and the EU. I think a bit of cursing,

sometimes happens between... Diplomacy Particularly in diplomacy,

I think what we need to do is to reinforce working together between

the EU and the US and to as the European Parliament has called for

this week, to offer a financial assistance dependent on political

dialogue, constitutional change, prospect of free election, to be

prepared to take targeted sanctions against the thugs of the regime and

the oligarchs who are supporting them, and to, you know, reinforce

the work of the citizens of the Ukraine, it is their choice to make,

we don't, we can't determine what they choose, but it does show that

the EU and its values of democracy and human rights have pulling power

and we should support that. ? We knew the Bush administration didn't

take the EU seriously as a diplomatic entity. This suggests

that maybe the Obama administration isn't that different. I think what

it suggests is while the EU is trying to bring the two sides

together the US is playing power politics, what she said was stuff

the EU in more graphic ways, but basically she was trying to say we

have to get some credit for any solution there, and that is a very

narrow minded attitude when we are facing major crisis. And a difficult

one too. Do the. U and the US do they have the same goals? The

Ukraine? I believe, so fundamentally, there is always, I

enmean, you know, no-one is pure in all of this, I suppose we all

political forces want to get some credit for, for a accident outcome,

but I think, you know, broadly we are on the same page, which is to

get peaceful political transition in Ukraine, to allow the Ukrainian

people to make their own choices and not be bullied by Russia and a very

unpleasant regime, and to, and to prevent violence and you know,

prospect of civil strife. I believe we are on the same page, but of

course there is a bit of rivalry. I think we are broadly, in terms of

sopping the violence, bringing the sides together. I think the US shows

an attitude they want to liberate the Ukraine, I don't think that is

the European Union role or the US's role. It is not Russia's job to

colonise it. Our job is to bring the two sides together. It is ANSA

asymmetric dispute. Even the US has only soft power to bring to this

whereas you get the impression that it wouldn't be, it is not beyond the

bounds of possibility that Mr Putin could use hard power? Yes, died. We

had a couple of Ukrainian MPs in the Parliament two weeks' ago and

firstly on the hard power against soft power they made the point, you

can never guarantee Russian tanks won't roll over the board, they said

they came with 16 billion in aid, they said their words was 600

thousand, that is a big difference. It is probably more than that. Would

you want to get into a bidding war? What the EU can offer, which the US

can't is the prospect of trade relationship, and eventually, who

know, we should not close the door on membership for Ukraine, that is

something which the US can't offer. It is Moscow's worst nightmare. It

shouldn't be. We are no doubt it is authentic. Are we agreed on that?

Yes Some predicted the the mice, the eurozone is still in one piece

though. So have the nay says been proved wrong or are there still

dangers ahead. Jo Coburn has been talking to MEPs in Strasbourg.

The financial storm that hit Europe in 2008 wreaked havoc in the region.

Even the most drastic action couldn't protect economies from the

continual batter of a European downturn.

A few years on, though, the euro is still here, and talk of a euro

crisis has subsided. So are there blue skies ahead? Opinion is

divided. The European Commission said last week that there are

encouraging signs that the economy is strengthening. Ittests growth in

eurozone of 1.1% for 2014, couple I paired toon estimated 0.4%

contraction for 2013. But unemployment in the euro area is

expected to remain a record 12.2% this year. Globalisation is bringing

a lot of opportunities and a lot of problems. If there's a chance, then

I think Europe has a lot of power to be a strong contender in the next

decades. But for some countries the storm clouds never went away. The

four crossed for Greece is still very gloomy. The opposition say the

Greek people are running out of patience.

I don't see any hope of these politicians. They don't see the

future and they don't believe in better days for our country. Key

figures in the EU believe the only solution is deep integration of the

euro zone to protect it from future turbulence. Common currency creates

stability, normally, and the common currency is almost -- also the main

engine for growth. I am optimistic about that. It doesn't mean that we

have already overcome this crisis. This crisis needs more reforms than

we have already done today. The main reforms we need is to establish an

economic and fiscal union because you need cooperation if you have a

single currency. There are still voices forecasting storms ahead. But

the idea of a single currency designed for countries with such

economic outlooks is fundamentally flawed. The plaster has been stuck

and they are not tackling the underlying problems. Member states

are different and they are different in the way they run their economies

are different in their cultures, and different in the expectations of

people. The European Union has a lot to offer Europeans and member

states. But I don't think economic unity is one of those things. Things

may be looking brighter, at least on the surface. But the long-range

forecast for Europe is still very uncertain. With the region still

vulnerable to any changes in the economic weather. Politicians here

hope the sun has finally set on the crisis that many thought could end

the whole European project. But they have yet to find agreement on the

best way to more prosperous times. And joining Sarah and David is

Patrick O'Flynn, who is director of communications for UKIP and a

candidate in the forthcoming European elections 2012, Nigel

Farage. We are entering the endgame of the

political project. This is going to come to the dramatic head over the

course of the next two years. Turned out to be wrong, didn't he? In time

frames, he is wrong, but I am certain he is right about the

conclusion. We need some basic economics. If you paid your economy

to Germany's, you are in trouble. We learn that with Britain and White

Wednesday, when we could do what we've should do, which is to

depreciate... Last I looked, the eurozone is still intact.

unemployment, living standards are falling, falling, after year,

throughout southern Europe. Eventually the people there will

decide that is announced assignable way of carrying on. -- and

unsustainable way of carrying on. But we have economic stagnation.

Now, particularly for the Club Med countries, the real serious problem

of deflation. It is absolutely true that we're not out of the woods.

Needs to be further reform. We are still stuck in the forest! A lot of

of work has been done to get us to this stage. What I find absurd from

UKIP is it is so unpatriotic to want the eurozone to implode. We rely on

it for economic links and 3 million jobs in the UK. George Osborne once

stability in the eurozone because he knows that it is no good to the UK.

In fact, UKIP is showing itself to be unpatriotic. That is ludicrous!

Let him respond. We would love the countries of Europe to be

successful. Do you watch the eurozone to break up? I say it

cannot work. If you are not on the same long-term productivity part as

Germany, you need to depreciate against its currency or becoming

activity gets sucked into Germany. One economist called it a giant

vampire squid if that. You are a Labour MEP. The eurozone before

summoning of its members, has in mass unemployment, of the kind we

have not seen this is the 1930s. Now we have this problem in the southern

countries of deflation. Once you get into deflation, the Japanese --

prices continue to fall. People think, I won't buy that today,

because it will be cheaper tomorrow. But to use a Scottish expression,

you never get out of the Hubble. We have muddled through the crisis. The

challenge now is to sort out the model. It is economic, not

financial. Exactly. The unemployment level is not acceptable. We have

called for a youth creation scheme to get the youth working at the

European level. We have suggested sharing borrowing costs so that

Greece and Italy can borrow better, get the economy moving again. Remove

some of the debt by sharing of pulling the cost. Germany is sharing

some of the benefits from the Europe with other member states. But you

could go back to the same problem of overindebtedness that created the

problem. What is needed as well is to tackle uncompetitive markets and

to have investment in productivity and Labour market reforms, like in

France. Francois Hollande has spoken about it but he is not delivering on

it. You pay over 40% of salary to employ somebody in France. That is a

huge deterrent. If you leave a generation unemployed, which we are

in danger of doing, you store up enormous problems for the whole of

the European Union. You are allied with France. The idea that some

countries are going to be able to compete in a locked rate with

Germany, long-term, is for the birds. It is never going to happen.

Germany has the scale, the brands, the infrastructure, the technical

education, the industrial relations all on its side. You have been to

Greece on holiday. It is siesta country. It is not in the culture.

They are not going to be able to do it. The economic activity is going

to be sucked away from them for good. Every year, they are going to

get smaller and poorer. Is the European government going to put

pressure on the central bank to become more activist? There are a

lot of calls that it starts to bomb Europe with the money. That they

need to put a lot more money into the system. It needs to go around

the major European banks and by their loan books and put cash onto

the ballot sheets of European banks so they can start to lend again. We

discussed this on Thursday. The parliament has argued strongly for

it. The British Conservatives voted against it but we argue for more

activist ECB. We need quantitative easing. We need shared borrowing

costs and lending. That would avoid the indebtedness that you talk

about. But only sharing under strict conditions. We have to move on. It

is an economic issue, not a financial one.

So the continent's still crippled by debt and struggling to emerge from

financial crisis, but European countries are still ploughing

billions of euros into the European Space Agency. Here's Adam with his

latest A-Z of Europe. Europe's Rover calls over the

surface of the red planet. Except it is really the Netherlands, where you

will find the research and technology centre of a European

Space Agency. It is where most of the agency's missions are planned

and built. This one takes off in 2018, and will have robotic design

by an engineer from Greece. Better not crash. It is costing 1 billion

euros. What would you say to your fellow Greeks who are struggling

financially to convince them this is worth investing in? This is

investing in research and development. It is creating jobs,

high-tech jobs for Europe. It crates intellectual capital. -- creates.

This is important for progress. Missions are launched in French

Guiana in South America. Astronauts get trained in Germany, and a new

lab has opened in the UK. Back in Holland, I'd done some fashionable

space where to meet one of the senior Brits here. -- I put on.

Here, they similar to the conditions up there. One of Mark's pet projects

is the resident probe, which later this year will land on a comet.

Hopefully. -- the Rosetta probe. I think it is a great example of

European cooperation. The badges come off at that point. When we are

sitting in a control room waiting for the results from one of our

missions, we are all European. It is great. Although, walking around this

place, there are no EU flags. That is because the agency is

independent. It is funded and run by its 20 member states, which come

confusingly, include Canada. In several countries, the fourth

largest contributor behind France, Germany and Italy. A few years ago,

we upped our contributions, making the UK lots of friends around here.

Each memo pays a sort of basic subscription based on their national

income, and the more you pay in, the more work gets sent your country's

way. Member states, then, pick and choose which missions to invest in.

Some countries have specific interest in launchers. They will

invest more in launches than other areas. Other countries don't have

such an interest. They don't have to put money into that programme.

Having said it is not part of the EU, the agency does when Europe's

equipment of the GPS system, Galileo, which the EU pays a lot of

awful of the Lisbon Treaty also gave Brussels the power to have its own

space policy for the first time. And prepare for Britain to go space mad.

Next year, Major Tim Peake will become the first British astronaut

to head into orbit on the European mission. You have both got 30

seconds to give us your impressions. A good thing? It is. It is a great

example of European co-operation. You get more bang for your bucks by

cooperating. There is going to be a new centre in Oxfordshire. We have

got 30,000 people in Britain in pride in space related technology.

-- employed. It is good for jobs and good for the future prosperity. That

is your 30 seconds. Now yours. I also agree. It is a good thing. This

is not about putting a man on the moon. It is about the cutting edge

of technology, which is all good for keeping Britain as an advanced

industrial economy. And we get some payback for this. It might be

disproportionate, in fact. All credit to the Coalition government,

if I may say, by putting more money into the European Space Agency. This

is not a party political programme That's all for today.

! Thanks to my guests, David Martin and Sarah Ludford. Bye bye.