25/02/2014 Daily Politics


25/02/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 25/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Pressure is mounting on Harriet Harman - she says she now "regrets"

:00:41.:00:43.

that a civil liberties group she used to work for had links to

:00:44.:00:47.

pro-paedophile campaigners. We'll look at the details of the claims.

:00:48.:00:51.

Labour wants to show they can be responsible bank managers, but do

:00:52.:00:56.

their sums add up? We need more housing, but where on

:00:57.:01:01.

earth do we put it? We'll look at how to square the circle between

:01:02.:01:03.

giving local communities more power, and the need to build more

:01:04.:01:06.

infrastructure. And celebrities and politics -

:01:07.:01:09.

shouldn't they just leave it to the professionals?

:01:10.:01:21.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is

:01:22.:01:24.

the presenter, writer, comedian and all round good egg Griff Rhys Jones,

:01:25.:01:33.

welcome to the show. Not a celebrity, I have to say, or I

:01:34.:01:40.

wouldn't be able to give my opinion. So let's start today with the

:01:41.:01:43.

pressure that's mounting on Labour's deputy leader Harriet Harman. In

:01:44.:01:46.

recent weeks, the Daily Mail has published a series of reports on the

:01:47.:01:49.

links between a civil liberties group she used to work for and

:01:50.:01:52.

paedophile rights campaigners in the 1970s. The Mail has repeatedly

:01:53.:01:55.

questioned the Labour MP, her husband the MP Jack Dromey and the

:01:56.:01:58.

former Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt about their time working for

:01:59.:02:01.

the National Council for Civil Liberties because of its connection

:02:02.:02:03.

to the Paedophile Information Exchange. That group, which lobbied

:02:04.:02:09.

on behalf of paedophiles, was granted affiliate status to the

:02:10.:02:16.

NCCL. There's no evidence to suggest that Ms Harman, Mr Dromey or Ms

:02:17.:02:19.

Hewitt personally supported the views of the group, but the Mail

:02:20.:02:22.

says she has repeatedly refused to answer its questions and has called

:02:23.:02:28.

her an "apologist for paedophilia". Well, yesterday, Ms Harman said the

:02:29.:02:31.

newspaper's claims were "horrific" and she denied all of them. Here she

:02:32.:02:39.

is on the BBC's Newsnight programme last night. There wasn't an

:02:40.:02:46.

affiliation between the two groups. You make it sound as if there was a

:02:47.:02:53.

mutuality. There wasn't. Technically, there was an

:02:54.:02:58.

affiliation. They were part of the wider group. Was that a mistake?

:02:59.:03:05.

They paid their money to NCCL. NCCL takes money from any lawful

:03:06.:03:11.

organisation and individual. Was it a mistake, to have that affiliation?

:03:12.:03:17.

I think what was right was to dispel them from the conference and to make

:03:18.:03:20.

sure their views were never taken forward. It is a very simple

:03:21.:03:29.

question. Yes or no, was it a mistake to allow an overt group who

:03:30.:03:34.

were publicly campaigning for paedophiles to be affiliated, which

:03:35.:03:39.

is the term they used, to the NCCL when you were the legal officer? I

:03:40.:03:47.

think on the basis it has created somehow a sense that NCCL's work was

:03:48.:03:53.

tainted by them, yes, obviously, that is a very unfortunate inference

:03:54.:03:58.

to have. But it is not the case that my work when I was at NCCL was

:03:59.:04:06.

influenced by them, was apologising all colluding with paedophilia. That

:04:07.:04:10.

is an unfair inference and it is a smear. We can speak to the BBC's

:04:11.:04:24.

James Landale. Why did she not just say it was a mistake? She was caught

:04:25.:04:30.

between two strategies. Her first strategy was to say nothing and hope

:04:31.:04:35.

it would fizzle out. It hasn't, so she was forced to give that

:04:36.:04:39.

interview. I think she didn't want to be seen to give an inch to the

:04:40.:04:43.

Daily Mail. She and other Labour Party members see this as a battle

:04:44.:04:47.

with the Daily Mail in the same way the Labour Party had a battle with

:04:48.:04:55.

regard to articles written about Ralph Miliband. Since she did not

:04:56.:05:04.

want to give an inch, she has expressed regret in a statement at

:05:05.:05:07.

the involvement of Paedophile Information Exchange in the NCCL,

:05:08.:05:13.

but she does not go further than that. She does not want to give any

:05:14.:05:19.

more ground to the Daily Mail. Just to prove that point, Harriet Harman

:05:20.:05:23.

has this morning issued a tweet with a picture in which she says: When it

:05:24.:05:29.

comes to decency and sexualisation of children, would you take lessons

:05:30.:05:35.

from the Daily Mail? And she has a picture which was on the website

:05:36.:05:41.

showing very young women in bikinis. So Harriet Harman is making a clear

:05:42.:05:45.

point that this is now a battle over who is right and wrong. But how much

:05:46.:05:51.

pressure is she now under? This story is escalating. It is not

:05:52.:05:58.

toning down. I remember the police are already investigating

:05:59.:06:04.

information as part of existing operations. There is also a separate

:06:05.:06:08.

Home Office enquiry as to whether public money was channelled through

:06:09.:06:15.

the Paedophile Information Exchange. Tom Watson the Labour MP has tweeted

:06:16.:06:21.

this morning saying: Producing this into a row between Harriet Harman

:06:22.:06:29.

and the Daily Mail is not the point. So the story has not reached its end

:06:30.:06:34.

by any means. Joining me now is the femmist writer Julie Bindel. Should

:06:35.:06:41.

Harriet Harman now apologise properly for allowing this

:06:42.:06:45.

affiliation with the Paedophile Information Exchange? Absolutely. It

:06:46.:06:50.

was a huge mistake and it ricocheted across the left at the time. I am a

:06:51.:06:58.

great admirer of Harriet Harman. She has done wonderful work in

:06:59.:07:02.

Parliament as a feminist and she has vilified -- she has been vilified

:07:03.:07:08.

because of that. But the NCCL were absolutely wrong to allow the

:07:09.:07:12.

Paedophile Information Exchange to affiliate. They were using the

:07:13.:07:16.

language of an oppressed when a team, language that oppressed gay

:07:17.:07:24.

groups were using. She should absolutely own up to her mistake.

:07:25.:07:30.

Why was it not challenged more rigorous Lee at the time? You were

:07:31.:07:34.

very much part of the left at that time, why was it not challenged

:07:35.:07:40.

more? I think because, as I said, the Paedophile Information Exchange

:07:41.:07:45.

use the language of liberation struggles. They also suggested this

:07:46.:07:56.

was about a fight for children -- for freedom. Why do you think

:07:57.:08:03.

Harriet Harman is finding it difficult? We heard there that this

:08:04.:08:09.

has been categorised as a battle with the Daily Mail. But generally

:08:10.:08:12.

wide would she find it difficult to say, it was wrong, it was a mistake

:08:13.:08:21.

and I'm sorry? Quite frankly I've no idea and this is not the Harriet

:08:22.:08:26.

Harman I know and admire. It strikes me she is refusing to take

:08:27.:08:29.

responsibility and certainly she shouldn't have to take personal

:08:30.:08:32.

responsibility across the board. But she was part of that decision-making

:08:33.:08:37.

process. We know that in the NCCL at the time there were a minority who

:08:38.:08:41.

are challenging this alliance, and we also know that outsiders

:08:42.:08:49.

challenged the fact that they were affiliated with the NCCL. But as I

:08:50.:08:52.

say at the time it was seen as almost homophobic teen named gay men

:08:53.:09:01.

within these child abuse rings as child rapists. People were living in

:09:02.:09:06.

a climate of fear, and was a cultural relativism so people were

:09:07.:09:12.

terrified of being accused of some kind of sexual moralist. We are

:09:13.:09:22.

talking about at the time. This was the 70s. I remember the Paedophile

:09:23.:09:30.

Information Exchange starting this campaign and I think at the time

:09:31.:09:37.

paedophilia was not much on the agenda. People did not have a strong

:09:38.:09:42.

and attitude about it as they do today. There's been a considerable

:09:43.:09:47.

change in our sort of attitude to this, partly as a result of cases

:09:48.:09:53.

coming out. However, I think part of the reason there was such ignorance

:09:54.:09:58.

about this was the terminology. Paedophilia means a lover of

:09:59.:10:02.

children, which is how this organisation presented themselves.

:10:03.:10:07.

It is child rape. Feminists at the time were fighting tooth and nail,

:10:08.:10:12.

some of them within the NCCL, some without, to say, all sex is not good

:10:13.:10:20.

sex. There is nonconsensual sex. You cannot possibly campaign as some gay

:10:21.:10:24.

libertarian men were for the abolition of the age of consent

:10:25.:10:28.

because some men grow up and say they enjoyed abuses children. The

:10:29.:10:38.

language of liberation was what I think really muddied the waters. But

:10:39.:10:43.

it was of course a lawful organisation at the time. The Iraq

:10:44.:10:52.

has changed. -- the era. We're going to leave it there, but thank you.

:10:53.:10:59.

If there's one area more than any other that Labour have had to claw

:11:00.:11:02.

back credibility on during their time in opposition, it's been their

:11:03.:11:05.

handling of the economy. In particular it's their record on

:11:06.:11:08.

spending, that critics say ran out of control towards the end of their

:11:09.:11:12.

time in office and helped contribute to the financial crash and

:11:13.:11:16.

subsequent recession. Well, now Labour have come over all prudent

:11:17.:11:19.

once again, and are promising not only to balance the books in the

:11:20.:11:23.

next parliament, but even to run a surplus on the current budget by

:11:24.:11:29.

2020. In fact, as bank manager in chief Ed Balls is so eager to prove,

:11:30.:11:33.

Labour can be trusted on the economy that they would even pass a law to

:11:34.:11:37.

make sure the Government sticks to tough fiscal rules. But running a

:11:38.:11:46.

current budget surplus wouldn't include borrowing additional money

:11:47.:11:48.

for long-term investments, whereas the Tories have said they'd go

:11:49.:11:51.

further and run an absolute surplus - meaning total Government spending

:11:52.:11:56.

is less than revenue raised. The IFS concluded this would mean Ed Balls

:11:57.:12:00.

could still borrow ?25 billion a year more than George Osborne, as

:12:01.:12:03.

the Tories would be forced to make deeper cuts to public spending from

:12:04.:12:14.

2016. Labour are conducting what they call a zero-based review

:12:15.:12:18.

looking at how every pound in spent by Government, and this morning

:12:19.:12:20.

Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Chris Leslie announced

:12:21.:12:23.

Labour would reform public services to make them more efficient. This

:12:24.:12:27.

includes Fire And Rescue Services sharing buildings with police

:12:28.:12:29.

forces, co-locating County Courts and Magistrates' Courts on the same

:12:30.:12:32.

site, and even the posibilty of scrapping police and crime

:12:33.:12:34.

commissioners which have been introduced by the Coalition

:12:35.:12:40.

Government. Chris Leslie the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury is

:12:41.:12:44.

with us now, along with Treasury Minister Sajid Javid and Ian Swales

:12:45.:12:48.

from the Liberal Democrats. Welcome to all of you. After that very long

:12:49.:12:53.

introduction, Chris Leslie, you said you would make sure to stick to your

:12:54.:12:58.

own fiscal rules you want your manifesto pledges to be audited. All

:12:59.:13:03.

of that, laudable though it may be, is a tacit admission that you lost

:13:04.:13:07.

control of the economy, for which you will now have to be child

:13:08.:13:11.

minded. It is an acknowledgement that, if we win the next general

:13:12.:13:16.

election, on the current plan, we would inherit a ?79 billion

:13:17.:13:23.

deficit. That is a deficit they promised to eradicate. They said we

:13:24.:13:26.

would balance the books completely. It looks as though that will be

:13:27.:13:32.

quite challenging. We've said the Conservatives and Liberals have

:13:33.:13:34.

tried unsuccessfully to balance the books. We will make sure we finished

:13:35.:13:40.

that job in the next Parliament. We are committed to getting the current

:13:41.:13:44.

budget into surplus as soon as possible by the time of the general

:13:45.:13:49.

election after next. That does not answer my question as to why you

:13:50.:13:54.

can't, it seems, be trusted to do this without being checked by the

:13:55.:13:57.

bodies that you are asking to bet your plans. That is an admission

:13:58.:14:01.

that you make mistakes before and you don't think the public will give

:14:02.:14:15.

you the reins second time. Sajid is here because he is on a PR campaign

:14:16.:14:22.

and you will hear from him shortly. I am here today to set out the

:14:23.:14:29.

proposals we have. One aspect of savings needs to come from

:14:30.:14:33.

decluttering public services, because, quite frankly, the lack of

:14:34.:14:38.

reform we've seen from this Government has added bureaucracy and

:14:39.:14:42.

administration. They have not decluttering policing. There are

:14:43.:14:49.

other ways they have added to the cost of the tax payer. Sajid, do you

:14:50.:14:58.

want to respond to that? This is a PR exercise to slander the Labour

:14:59.:15:04.

card -- Labour Party, to keep going back to 2010, when, as we know,

:15:05.:15:08.

there was a global banking crash which did not have anything to do

:15:09.:15:10.

with. That is what the Labour Party want

:15:11.:15:18.

you to believe. But the public knows the reality. This has been billed as

:15:19.:15:21.

a major speech, but hardly anyone has picked up on it, and I think

:15:22.:15:26.

people realise it is another set of gimmicks. They would also rather

:15:27.:15:31.

judge Labour by their actions rather than the cheap words they use now.

:15:32.:15:36.

Back in 1996 there was another Labour Shadow Chancellor called

:15:37.:15:39.

Gordon Brown that promise, in his words, iron discipline with the

:15:40.:15:46.

public finances -- that promised. He stuck to Conservative spending plans

:15:47.:15:49.

and then there was a boom. He stuck to them for a year, but then he let

:15:50.:15:55.

spending gun, and the result was the largest rate of overspending of any

:15:56.:15:59.

developed country in the world -- spending go. The biggest bust the

:16:00.:16:03.

country saw in a hundred years and the largest bank bailout the world

:16:04.:16:08.

ever saw. You are saying that Labour Party spending in the UK cause the

:16:09.:16:11.

financial crash that affected the rest of the world? It was a major

:16:12.:16:17.

contributing factor that -- to the troubles we face, and overspending

:16:18.:16:24.

was huge by the beginning of 2007, according to the IMF, and many

:16:25.:16:28.

others, Britain was running the largest deficit of any developed

:16:29.:16:31.

country and what is called a structural deficit. That is a huge

:16:32.:16:35.

rate of overspending, and that was happening before the banking crisis.

:16:36.:16:41.

How is the level of debt going now after four years of coalition

:16:42.:16:45.

government in terms of proportion of GDP? The rate of borrowing is down.

:16:46.:16:51.

What about the debt? When the government took office, you heard

:16:52.:16:55.

Chris talking about what they inherited. The rate of borrowing was

:16:56.:17:02.

?116 billion per year. I'm not asking about borrowing, I'm talking

:17:03.:17:06.

about the debt. Which direction is it going in? Anyone would understand

:17:07.:17:13.

that when you inherit a rate of borrowing it will take time to turn

:17:14.:17:17.

around. George Osborne said he would balance the books by the end of the

:17:18.:17:20.

parliament, so at the end of this, the public is out there thinking,

:17:21.:17:26.

who do we trust to do what they say they will do, bring down borrowing

:17:27.:17:29.

and bring down the levels of debt. It hasn't happened yet with the

:17:30.:17:34.

debt. That is misleading. You can't reduce borrowing until you reduce

:17:35.:17:38.

the rate of borrowing, and that is the deficit. People understand

:17:39.:17:42.

that. Labour don't want people to understand that. What you are not

:17:43.:17:47.

being clear about is that you say you will have this balancing of the

:17:48.:17:51.

books, but you are leaving yourself room to borrow vast amounts of money

:17:52.:17:58.

on what we call capital spending, on infrastructure projects. So on the

:17:59.:18:01.

day-to-day, current spending, you say you will balance the books, but

:18:02.:18:07.

you will spend to invest? It is the same target the current Chancellor

:18:08.:18:10.

has said. He said in this Parliament that his aim was to get the current

:18:11.:18:18.

budget into surplus, and now we have said for the next Parliament that we

:18:19.:18:23.

would target the current budget. It's true we want to reserve the to

:18:24.:18:27.

state of the economy when we get closer to 2015. How much would you

:18:28.:18:32.

like to spend? Capital infrastructure spend is a good way

:18:33.:18:37.

to stimulate the economy, but we've also committed to reduce the level

:18:38.:18:40.

of national debt by the end of the next Parliament. What about the

:18:41.:18:45.

Liberal Democrats? Which planned the fancy, Ian Swales? The Liberal

:18:46.:18:49.

Democrats have not been as clear. Would you have an absolute budget

:18:50.:18:53.

surplus, so you'd include capital spending, or would you allow

:18:54.:18:55.

yourself room to spend more with capital spending? As you might

:18:56.:19:00.

expect, I'm saying we'd be somewhere in the middle. We do believe in a

:19:01.:19:04.

stronger economy and we want to see the deficit brought down to zero,

:19:05.:19:09.

but we also believe, as Chris does, that investing in infrastructure is

:19:10.:19:13.

a good way to go forward, and we are doing more of that now when this

:19:14.:19:17.

government, as recent plans have shown. I also think we do need a

:19:18.:19:22.

change. Page one of the document Chris was speaking about this

:19:23.:19:25.

morning says that the Labour Party would need to govern in a very

:19:26.:19:28.

different way to how they have in the past. I would certainly agree

:19:29.:19:33.

with that. But the test is, can they actually do it, and does anybody

:19:34.:19:38.

believe that they will? If we get elected, we will be saddled with a

:19:39.:19:44.

?79 billion deficit, so we have to make some tough choices. What would

:19:45.:19:48.

they be? That is what everyone is dying to know. You're going to but

:19:49.:19:54.

the 50p tax rate back in. That is one decision that won't be popular

:19:55.:19:57.

with the rich, but it has to be done. It also won't raise any

:19:58.:20:05.

revenue. That's debatable. It is only ?100 million per year, which

:20:06.:20:09.

isn't very much. But today I was talking about the need to get

:20:10.:20:12.

serious about decluttering the number of local bodies we have. We

:20:13.:20:21.

spend ?3 billion on the whole commissioning of architecture in the

:20:22.:20:26.

NHS, and it needs to be Lena. -- it needs to be more lean. Does it make

:20:27.:20:31.

sense that the new Police Commissioner arrangements cost more

:20:32.:20:33.

than the police authorities than they replaced? We don't think it

:20:34.:20:37.

does. We also have the same number of police and fire authorities. At

:20:38.:20:43.

the same time we are looking at losing front line police officers.

:20:44.:20:47.

It were going to make savings, take those costs out of management and

:20:48.:20:50.

bureaucracy rather than the front line. That is something that this

:20:51.:20:53.

government's spending approach has failed to do. Let's look at the tax

:20:54.:20:59.

and spend and departmental spending. Do you think that the departments

:21:00.:21:02.

that are not ring fenced will be able to withstand 7% cuts in their

:21:03.:21:09.

current spending, year on year? Can I correct something Chris has said.

:21:10.:21:16.

The commitment is Shadow Chancellor made -- his Shadow Chancellor made

:21:17.:21:19.

was about current spending, but we are talking about total spending

:21:20.:21:23.

much over the next few years, by 2019, we plan to eliminate the

:21:24.:21:27.

deficit whether it is capital spending or current spending. We

:21:28.:21:30.

believe that a country must live within its means, and what it spends

:21:31.:21:35.

must be covered by tax. We will not sign up to the gimmicks that the

:21:36.:21:38.

Labour Party use, like differentiating between capital and

:21:39.:21:44.

current. Can I ask, if you're going to try and balance the books, you

:21:45.:21:50.

will not spend to invest, so how are you going to build the houses for

:21:51.:21:53.

the future and the schools for the future and the hospitals if you

:21:54.:21:59.

won't spend to invest? We are going to spend to invest that we will make

:22:00.:22:03.

sure it's raised through taxes. Broadly we have had a decade of flat

:22:04.:22:08.

spending for the NHS, so are you saying over the next Parliament we

:22:09.:22:11.

will have to reduce public spending to a level never seen before because

:22:12.:22:14.

public spending investment is going to generally come down? I'm not

:22:15.:22:19.

saying that, I'm saying we are reducing the rate of borrowing that

:22:20.:22:23.

means we have to keep looking at finding ways to find more savings,

:22:24.:22:26.

and I don't doubt for a minute that it will be difficult as it has been

:22:27.:22:30.

in the last few years. But we are determined to make the tough

:22:31.:22:33.

decisions. Labour had opportunity after opportunity in the last few

:22:34.:22:37.

years to support some of the tough decisions, such as welfare spending,

:22:38.:22:41.

and they voted against every single one of the initiatives. On welfare

:22:42.:22:47.

spending do you support the idea of another ?12 billion being taken out

:22:48.:22:52.

of the welfare budget after 2015? Frankly, no, we have to look

:22:53.:22:56.

carefully at welfare spending. We want to have a fair society and we

:22:57.:22:59.

think those that need help should get it, but we also accept that some

:23:00.:23:02.

changes were needed and we have supported the changes that have

:23:03.:23:08.

already taken place. Would you go into another coalition with the

:23:09.:23:11.

Conservatives with George Osborne saying they need to take another ?12

:23:12.:23:15.

billion? We will be fighting the next election with independent

:23:16.:23:19.

programmes. If we go into coalition again, we will fight out a programme

:23:20.:23:22.

like last time but that does not mean we accept everything in the

:23:23.:23:27.

Tory party manifesto. You seem to ally yourself closer to the Labour

:23:28.:23:31.

Party. I did ask you a specific question, but you want to spend to

:23:32.:23:34.

invest, but your not keen on the welfare cuts at George Osborne

:23:35.:23:37.

suggested. What about the personal tax allowance? If we are talking

:23:38.:23:46.

about the raising of the threshold for basic rate, we would like to see

:23:47.:23:49.

it go further. We would like to get it up to the minimum wage level

:23:50.:23:53.

which would bring it roughly in line with the living wage, which I think

:23:54.:23:56.

is an important milestone. Is that affordable? We want to see lower

:23:57.:24:04.

taxes. A lot of money to raise the threshold. Yes, but we still want to

:24:05.:24:10.

reduce taxes for people who have the lowest take-home pay. Take it away

:24:11.:24:15.

through VAT and cuts to tax credits then? Come on. I want to ask you

:24:16.:24:22.

about Harriet Harman which is the story mainly being discussed today.

:24:23.:24:25.

Should she fully apologise to the organisation that she worked for

:24:26.:24:29.

having the Paedophile Information Exchange as an affiliate

:24:30.:24:34.

organisation? Harriet has been under a lot of attack by the Daily Mail on

:24:35.:24:39.

this and she has said that she regrets that this odious

:24:40.:24:45.

organisation had this affiliation with the NCCL 30 years ago. Is that

:24:46.:24:54.

enough? She's being accused of being an apologist for paedophilia. There

:24:55.:24:59.

can be nothing more absurd or hurtful. It is an appalling thing

:25:00.:25:03.

for her to deal with. I'm sure nobody round this table really

:25:04.:25:06.

thinks that that is the essence of Harriet Harman. But to draw a line,

:25:07.:25:13.

should she make a full apology? I actually think she said the right

:25:14.:25:16.

thing in terms of regretting that this organisation has now been

:25:17.:25:21.

allowed to besmirch a lot of the good work that the organisation she

:25:22.:25:27.

was with at the time was doing. That is a different order of issue as to

:25:28.:25:31.

whether she is an apologist for paedophilia, which has been on the

:25:32.:25:34.

front page of the Daily Mail for the past four days. You think they are

:25:35.:25:39.

running a smear campaign? Undoubtedly. There are many things

:25:40.:25:43.

going on in politics but I hope none of us would never resort to that

:25:44.:25:48.

level of mudslinging, that sort of ridiculous accusation. It is just

:25:49.:25:56.

absurd. Thank you, gentlemen. It is a perennial headache for governments

:25:57.:26:00.

of all persuasions. We the public want more homes, improved transport

:26:01.:26:04.

links and a new generation of power plants, but just not in the

:26:05.:26:08.

backyard. Get it wrong, and ministers stand accused of drawing

:26:09.:26:13.

up a charter for not in my backyard types, or concreting over England.

:26:14.:26:18.

But can the balance be pulled off? Here's David.

:26:19.:26:21.

If only planning was this simple. The Piper Central London model.

:26:22.:26:31.

Neat, and not a protest inside. When the coalition came to power they

:26:32.:26:33.

promised people are much greater say in the things that really mattered

:26:34.:26:36.

to them, like what's get built -- what gets built and where. But they

:26:37.:26:41.

also need to do the big things like transport links, power stations and

:26:42.:26:44.

of course, a lot more housing. So how do they do that and keep the

:26:45.:26:49.

locals happy at the same time? In England, the government has scrapped

:26:50.:26:53.

regional planning targets and given community greater input into what

:26:54.:26:57.

gets built in their areas. But they've also slimmed down planning

:26:58.:27:00.

policy from literally thousands of pages to just over 50, and they want

:27:01.:27:03.

to see thousands of homes built in the coming years. That has led some

:27:04.:27:06.

to wonder what local is really means. The trouble with localism is

:27:07.:27:15.

that it means all things to all men and women, and we created a

:27:16.:27:19.

situation of unreasonable expectations. People thought it

:27:20.:27:21.

meant they could say no when sometimes they can't, and also, it's

:27:22.:27:28.

about having localism introduced in planning without it being introduced

:27:29.:27:31.

in some other areas which are very centralised. The government have

:27:32.:27:36.

also made it harder to use judicial reviews as a way of stalling

:27:37.:27:40.

development, yet some people feel that the dice is loaded in the

:27:41.:27:43.

favour of those opposed to new schemes rather than those who need

:27:44.:27:48.

somewhere to live. We need local, trusted champions, making the same

:27:49.:27:52.

sort of case for housing in their area as say, for example, the Royal

:27:53.:27:58.

Society for the Protection of Birds does for birds. At the same time as

:27:59.:28:03.

championing localism, control over infrastructure projects has been

:28:04.:28:08.

moved to ministers, which might make the more democratic, but also more

:28:09.:28:12.

difficult to stop. Is there actually a way of squaring the circle? The

:28:13.:28:18.

problem at the moment is that local communities and councils have very

:28:19.:28:21.

little financial incentive to allow building of any kind, commercial or

:28:22.:28:26.

residential or infrastructure, in their areas. We have to change that

:28:27.:28:30.

and allow those local communities to reap the benefits of development

:28:31.:28:35.

were not just to feel the pain. We all, collectively, did not really

:28:36.:28:40.

make the case for housing, but what we need in terms of

:28:41.:28:43.

telecommunications infrastructure, what we need in terms of energy to

:28:44.:28:47.

keep the lights on, what we need to build in terms of connectivity,

:28:48.:28:51.

getting people from a to B. We have to persuade the public that not only

:28:52.:28:55.

do we need these things as a nation, and in their place, but it

:28:56.:28:59.

actually translates to stuff in their area. Ministers get paid to

:29:00.:29:05.

take the big decisions, the ones which shape a nation. In planning,

:29:06.:29:10.

they have to decide to what extent they are on the side of the little

:29:11.:29:16.

guy. Our guest of the day, Griff Rhys Jones, is president of Civic

:29:17.:29:20.

Voice, and we are joined by the Conservative MP John Howell. Griff

:29:21.:29:23.

Rhys Jones, would you say as a civic minded person that you automatically

:29:24.:29:30.

and not in my backyard type? I am in that I think that they are a good

:29:31.:29:33.

idea. Where it is important that people take a concern or interest in

:29:34.:29:39.

what happens in their local environment, that's a valid and

:29:40.:29:43.

important thing. It was set up by a Conservative government, the civic

:29:44.:29:47.

movement, Duncan Sands put it in in order to help people to be involved

:29:48.:29:51.

in what is happening in their own area. Too often is the idea that

:29:52.:29:59.

it's perpetrated by a group of people stopping everything

:30:00.:30:02.

happening. What most people feel is they think, how did that happen?

:30:03.:30:07.

What is earthy -- on earth is happening question why do I live in

:30:08.:30:10.

an area where there is a derelict site that has been a derelict site

:30:11.:30:16.

for maybe getting on for 50 years in central London? We can walk around

:30:17.:30:19.

central London and wonder why that happens, and why is that the case,

:30:20.:30:23.

so it's not just a question looking at people from the point of view of

:30:24.:30:27.

saying they are naysayers. They are people who might be concerned about

:30:28.:30:35.

what's happening in their area. And are you concerned about planning

:30:36.:30:39.

reforms? I'm concerned about aspects of them. I worry there might be an

:30:40.:30:49.

idea we can reduce planning legislation to 65 pages when that

:30:50.:30:53.

cannot be the case. Planning starts at the front gate and the way it

:30:54.:30:57.

evolved over the last 50 years is effectively to deal with all the

:30:58.:31:01.

different conditions that came into play, with different and local

:31:02.:31:12.

considerations will stop --. If we chop that down then there will be

:31:13.:31:17.

additions in the future because simple sentences are open to

:31:18.:31:22.

complicated interpretations, even when they are good sentences. And

:31:23.:31:31.

erosion of the green belt. The point about reducing the legislation, as

:31:32.:31:37.

it were, the guidance, down to 50 pages, is I think a misunderstood

:31:38.:31:44.

one. What we did is to take over 1000 pages, and through an

:31:45.:31:48.

enormously long process, boil it down to 50 pages of concise

:31:49.:31:55.

information that is compressible. But it is ambiguous and can be

:31:56.:31:58.

interpreted then in lots of different ways. Also, as many in

:31:59.:32:02.

your own party feel, it gives developers the right. I don't think

:32:03.:32:10.

it does at all. National policy framework introduces practically

:32:11.:32:17.

nothing do. -- new. All it does is take existing guidance and boil it

:32:18.:32:22.

down to 50 pages. That has been of enormous value to people and in my

:32:23.:32:28.

own constituency neighbourhood planning has been introduced and is

:32:29.:32:35.

going very well. The civic interest has been shown enormously by people

:32:36.:32:44.

in my constituency. One in ten people turned up to the same polling

:32:45.:32:48.

booth and only voted for the referendum, they did not vote for

:32:49.:32:51.

the County Council election on the same day. Is John Howell right when

:32:52.:32:57.

he says it does not give builders more right to interpret the guidance

:32:58.:33:04.

to their advantage? I don't think he is right. The framework is an

:33:05.:33:10.

interesting and worthwhile document. What is more complicated as some of

:33:11.:33:14.

the guidelines that have gone out to local authorities. They need a

:33:15.:33:17.

five-year land plan and some have not been given enough time to do

:33:18.:33:23.

that. Consequently, there are gaps which are being exploited by

:33:24.:33:27.

developers, because, effectively, they are saying, look, there is a

:33:28.:33:32.

piece of secondary legislation which says if you as a council have not

:33:33.:33:35.

done this, these guidelines will apply willy-nilly. As a result,

:33:36.:33:39.

there are some bad developments happening. We must never forget that

:33:40.:33:44.

over 90% of planning applications did go through. It is the 10% of

:33:45.:33:51.

rather bad planning applications which are now... Let me pick you up

:33:52.:34:01.

on Matt. 76% of councils have at least a draft planning process. --

:34:02.:34:10.

pick you up on that. That is a good thing. Without that plan, people are

:34:11.:34:19.

exposed to this. All we're asking them to do is, when they are putting

:34:20.:34:23.

forward their plans, we asked them to prove they deliver them. Do you

:34:24.:34:31.

accept you have ditched this idea of Brownfield only sites first. No, not

:34:32.:34:40.

in the slightest. You are not said that they had to be looked at first.

:34:41.:34:44.

The National Trust says its research shows that half of councils with

:34:45.:34:48.

green belt land are preparing to allocate some of it to development

:34:49.:34:51.

while Brownfield sites are overlooked. Not at all. They are

:34:52.:35:01.

still the priority. Priority is not the same as saying it has to be. I

:35:02.:35:07.

can give you an example. In Bradford, people have gone to the

:35:08.:35:10.

council and said it is not financially viable for us to develop

:35:11.:35:15.

Brownfield sites. It is only financially viable for us to develop

:35:16.:35:24.

in other places, areas of rather beautiful green field values, around

:35:25.:35:30.

existing villages. So they had been allocated to expansion for the

:35:31.:35:33.

simple reason that developers have set a standard for themselves.

:35:34.:35:37.

They've said, we could not possibly make profit out of this. Councils do

:35:38.:35:44.

not have too accept what developers tell them and they do not accept.

:35:45.:35:48.

They have to test viability arguments. Are they able to actually

:35:49.:35:57.

fight those decisions? Under planning regulations, they become

:35:58.:36:00.

liable for failed appeals, and therefore when they are strapped for

:36:01.:36:07.

cash... They always have been! I know they always have been, but the

:36:08.:36:13.

presumption is, actually, with the developer. It is also to people

:36:14.:36:17.

fighting bad ideas. They becoming sourced it and may simply be

:36:18.:36:23.

appealed. The presumption is neighbourhood planning is the way

:36:24.:36:27.

forward. We have almost 800 communities around the country

:36:28.:36:30.

engaging in neighbourhood planning. They are engaging with your civic

:36:31.:36:37.

pride. The worry is that will not result in anything because it will

:36:38.:36:43.

all be called off. We have to leave it there, but thank you.

:36:44.:36:48.

The IT company ATOS, which delivers disability benefit assessments, was

:36:49.:36:51.

repeatedly warned by the Government to improve its service, according to

:36:52.:36:54.

the disabilities minister Mike Penning. ATOS has said it wants to

:36:55.:36:57.

leave its Government contract early and when asked yesterday in the

:36:58.:37:00.

Commons, Mr Penning said he intends to get out of the deal and claimed

:37:01.:37:04.

it won't cost the taxpayer extra money. The issue is to do would be

:37:05.:37:15.

an acceptable backlog that ATOS have built up. -- to do with the

:37:16.:37:32.

unacceptable backlog. Given that ATOS have announced they want to

:37:33.:37:36.

withdraw from the contract negotiated with the party opposite,

:37:37.:37:40.

will he agree with me it would be a disgrace if the hard-pressed

:37:41.:37:43.

taxpayer had to pay any form of compensation to this company? ATOS

:37:44.:37:51.

has acted as a lightning rod for all that is wrong with this assessment.

:37:52.:37:55.

They are delivering a contract to Government specified guidelines. It

:37:56.:38:12.

is no surprise to many that ATOS, appointed by the last Labour

:38:13.:38:16.

Government, have now failed their own work capability assessment.

:38:17.:38:24.

Considering appeals upheld were 40% of original decisions, what can be

:38:25.:38:28.

done now to make sure those original decisions in the first place are far

:38:29.:38:34.

more accurate? We're joined now by Anne Begg, who's

:38:35.:38:38.

chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee, and you saw her

:38:39.:38:42.

there speaking in the debate. Is Labour to blame for this? We signed

:38:43.:38:48.

the original contract, but this company -- this coalition

:38:49.:38:56.

renegotiated that. Also what this Government did was roll out much

:38:57.:39:00.

more quickly the migration from incapacity benefit on to employment

:39:01.:39:04.

and allowance. But there are flaws in the contract. ATOS say they want

:39:05.:39:13.

to terminate the contract because of persistent threats against their

:39:14.:39:16.

staff. Do you think they are justified in pulling the plug? I

:39:17.:39:21.

would've liked the Government to pull the plug earlier. We've been

:39:22.:39:26.

calling for that for some time now. If ATOS failed to deliver, they

:39:27.:39:29.

don't actually seem to suffer any penalty. In this case, I feel

:39:30.:39:36.

slightly sorry for the company. They've become the lightning rod

:39:37.:39:41.

which has attracted all the unhappiness about the work

:39:42.:39:43.

capability assessments have been carried out. All the hatred and

:39:44.:39:52.

upset has been poured on them. As the week there were demonstrations

:39:53.:39:56.

outside many of their officers. So I can understand as a company they

:39:57.:40:01.

must fear their reputation -- fear for their reputation. It is

:40:02.:40:10.

perfectly understandable why the people who have been failed by the

:40:11.:40:14.

system are feeling very annoyed. They want help, many of them want to

:40:15.:40:21.

go back to work. In the media, they are portrayed as lazy. They are

:40:22.:40:26.

not, they want help, but also to do a job they can do. And when they are

:40:27.:40:31.

ill, they do not want to be badgered into always having to go back into

:40:32.:40:37.

the job centre to sign-on. The Government has been keen to reduce

:40:38.:40:42.

the welfare bill. They say tests were not stringent enough, too many

:40:43.:40:46.

were on incapacity benefits. Then you hear these terrible stories of

:40:47.:40:52.

people being put through what are probably humiliating experiences to

:40:53.:40:54.

get benefits they feel they rightly deserve. I once met a doctor in

:40:55.:41:01.

Northern Ireland who explained one of the problems with new legislation

:41:02.:41:06.

which was designed to catch cheats or people exploiting the system is

:41:07.:41:09.

that the actual people exploiting the system continue to find their

:41:10.:41:14.

way around it. The people who really suffer those who deserve assistance

:41:15.:41:20.

and help the most. Putting in some safeguards against that happening is

:41:21.:41:24.

part of the business of making sure the contract is well done. On the

:41:25.:41:30.

other hand, this is a farce that is happening democratically and is a

:41:31.:41:41.

useful bus -- is useful tool to bring it into the public eye. We

:41:42.:41:45.

have to continue looking at these things. Who will foot the Bill? I

:41:46.:41:54.

honestly don't know, I haven't seen the contract because of

:41:55.:42:00.

confidentiality. So the select committee has not been able to study

:42:01.:42:06.

the contract. The minister was saying yesterday they could not get

:42:07.:42:09.

out of the contract in 2010 because it would cost a lot of money, but

:42:10.:42:13.

they don't seem to be saying it now. So I don't know if that is true or

:42:14.:42:18.

not. The taxpayer at the moment is paying a huge amount for a flawed

:42:19.:42:22.

system. Huge amounts are being paid to reassess people that really

:42:23.:42:27.

should not be reassessed. I had a 64-year-old person about to go

:42:28.:42:32.

through his assessment this week. By the time he goes through the system,

:42:33.:42:37.

he will be on the state pension. That is a waste of money and a lot

:42:38.:42:41.

of activists are saying this is wasting huge amounts of Government

:42:42.:42:44.

money and is not getting the right result. Thank you.

:42:45.:42:50.

Scottish Independence is understandably dominating the news

:42:51.:42:53.

agenda at the moment, but in Wales there are also important debates

:42:54.:42:56.

underway about how the country is run. Since devolution, Wales has

:42:57.:43:00.

gone its own way in a number of areas, not least in health and

:43:01.:43:03.

education, so should the nation be seen as a trailblazer for the rest

:43:04.:43:05.

of the UK? Devolution can create laboratory of

:43:06.:43:29.

ideas for the rest of the UK. It is an idea which has long been

:43:30.:43:35.

articulated. Wales has been busy experimenting since 1999.

:43:36.:43:40.

Prescriptions in Wales have been free since 2007, an idea adopted by

:43:41.:43:44.

governments in Northern Ireland and Scotland, who also followed the lead

:43:45.:43:51.

of Wales in charging plastic bags. The ban on smoking was first

:43:52.:43:55.

introduced in Scotland, but Welsh Assembly members had voted for it

:43:56.:44:00.

three years earlier. A snapshot of policy development across the UK.

:44:01.:44:03.

But do we learn enough from each other? It is difficult at the moment

:44:04.:44:09.

for the devolved governments to speak to and learn from each other.

:44:10.:44:14.

We still have a bit of a risk where we are not learning from others as

:44:15.:44:19.

quickly as we code, both in terms of best practice and policy failure. It

:44:20.:44:24.

would be good to have more definite mechanisms in place so the

:44:25.:44:27.

governments of the nations can learn more effectively from each other.

:44:28.:44:31.

With governments of a different colour at both ends of the M4, there

:44:32.:44:36.

is unlikely to be too much policy adoption. They are frequently at

:44:37.:44:42.

loggerheads over big-ticket items such as education and welfare. We

:44:43.:44:56.

have to make it clear that Blair's speech was for England only, not for

:44:57.:45:04.

Wales. Then we widened it into a broad and back broader issue, just

:45:05.:45:09.

to make it clear to the people of Wales that there was a distinct

:45:10.:45:13.

Welsh emphasis to the programme we would be drawing up to put in a

:45:14.:45:19.

A distinctive Welsh programme that rejects the marketisation of

:45:20.:45:25.

services but with Wales languishing at the bottom of education tables

:45:26.:45:28.

and regularly missing key health targets, critics argue it is the

:45:29.:45:33.

wrong programme. Nevertheless, Wales voted in 2011 to give the assembly

:45:34.:45:37.

the necessary tools to make further changes. The referendum to give the

:45:38.:45:42.

Assembly full lawmaking powers hardly caught the imagination, but

:45:43.:45:46.

it did mark a significant step in the devolution journey. I would love

:45:47.:45:53.

to have the powers that Carwyn Jones has now. Had it been available to me

:45:54.:45:58.

in the year 2000 when I took over as First Minister, because it was quite

:45:59.:46:03.

frustrating having to ask Westminster to pass legislation on

:46:04.:46:07.

our behalf. And powers and the possible devolution of further

:46:08.:46:12.

policy areas could see the Welsh laboratory become more experimental

:46:13.:46:15.

in the years to come, but has it so far produced any eureka moments?

:46:16.:46:18.

That is a matter of debate. After all, policy development can be more

:46:19.:46:24.

of an art than a science. We have heard about the record of devolution

:46:25.:46:29.

in Wales, but what about the Labour run Welsh government? How are they

:46:30.:46:35.

faring? Well we can speak now to Jeff Cuthbert, Communities Minister

:46:36.:46:38.

in the Welsh government, and Andrew RT Davies, leader of the Welsh

:46:39.:46:43.

Conservatives. Welcome to both of you. Jeff Cuthbert, why do Welsh

:46:44.:46:47.

hospitals underperform? I think we need to be careful with statements

:46:48.:46:53.

like that. What that does is create a lot of mistrust and fright amongst

:46:54.:46:59.

patients. Patient satisfaction, those using the NHS in Wales, that

:47:00.:47:08.

shows a satisfaction rate of over 90% so it's not fair to say

:47:09.:47:11.

hospitals are underperforming. There will be incidents from time to

:47:12.:47:14.

time, and those are investigated, as is happening at the moment with a

:47:15.:47:18.

couple of hospitals. There are figures here I'd say 50% of Welsh

:47:19.:47:24.

patients wait six weeks for bowel cancer scans compared to 2% in

:47:25.:47:28.

England, simile for MRI scans, and 80% of patients were waiting similar

:47:29.:47:34.

for your ring tests which can be used to detect bladder cancer. --

:47:35.:47:40.

your ring test. You are comparing apples and pears. The issue of

:47:41.:47:43.

waiting times in England is calculated in a different way from

:47:44.:47:48.

waiting times in Wales. That doesn't mean we don't look at the issue and

:47:49.:47:53.

try and improve matters, but the raw comparison is unfair, and it doesn't

:47:54.:47:58.

produce realistic comparisons. That has been accepted by the medical

:47:59.:48:04.

profession. Andrew Davies, this is a political football, isn't it? We

:48:05.:48:08.

often hear in Prime Minister's Question Time, look at the Labour

:48:09.:48:12.

record in Wales, it's just an easy slogan to bash the Labour Party? I

:48:13.:48:16.

don't think that's the case at all. If you look at the big ticket items

:48:17.:48:22.

like the economy, health, education, regrettably Wales does lag behind

:48:23.:48:25.

other parts of the UK. It's not because the Welsh aren't in --

:48:26.:48:28.

aspiring to be the best at everything, it's just the Welsh

:48:29.:48:33.

government policy lead since they took power in 1999. So surely you

:48:34.:48:41.

and your colleagues are accountable? Let's be clear, Andrew Davies

:48:42.:48:44.

mentions the economy. The latest figures show that unemployment in

:48:45.:48:48.

Wales is lower than in the rest of the UK, and in the crucial area of

:48:49.:48:52.

young people, 16 and 17-year-old, there has been a 22% drop in the

:48:53.:48:58.

numbers out of work. A lot down to the successful growth scheme which

:48:59.:49:04.

is creating 10,000 opportunities. As I am talking to you, the First

:49:05.:49:08.

Minister is in the US looking to win good contracts for Wales, inward

:49:09.:49:13.

investment, and promoting Wales as a tourist centre. We are doing our

:49:14.:49:17.

best to raise the profile. It is disappointing that the leader of the

:49:18.:49:21.

opposition continues to talk Wales down. Andrew RT Davies, are you

:49:22.:49:27.

talking Wales down because it is politically expedient? Far from it.

:49:28.:49:31.

I see huge ambition in Wales but the facts speak for themselves. If you

:49:32.:49:42.

look at GBA -- GVA, we are 70% less than the rest of the UK. The

:49:43.:49:47.

government set a goal of 90% GVA. Look out waiting times in the NHS,

:49:48.:49:51.

one in seven people in Wales are on a waiting list, and the cancer

:49:52.:49:55.

waiting times have not been met since 2009. And education, if you

:49:56.:50:02.

take the internationally recognised standard, regrettably, year on year,

:50:03.:50:07.

we have got worse in those assessments. It's not because the

:50:08.:50:10.

people of Wales don't have the ambition, or because the

:50:11.:50:13.

professionals in the areas haven't got the desire to get on in life,

:50:14.:50:16.

it's because the policy direction that the Welsh Labour government

:50:17.:50:22.

have set and been responsible for since 1999 since the assembly came

:50:23.:50:26.

into being. Griff Rhys Jones, had you think Wales is faring? I have to

:50:27.:50:33.

speak to somebody who runs two businesses in Wales, both of which

:50:34.:50:36.

are run by people who are very dedicated and very good people, so I

:50:37.:50:40.

don't find any sense in which the idea that Wales is not a place where

:50:41.:50:44.

business can thrive has any validity. But also, what's important

:50:45.:50:51.

for Wales is to be aware that, just like any other country, if it has a

:50:52.:50:57.

priority about its economy and about its organisation. Do you think the

:50:58.:51:00.

priorities right in Wales at the moment? It's all raise the wrong

:51:01.:51:06.

thing to stand back and say we are fine, don't pick on us because we

:51:07.:51:10.

are Welsh. There is a sense in which we ought to be trying to achieve

:51:11.:51:14.

better standards, and I hope that that would be something that is

:51:15.:51:18.

important. There is a tendency in Wales to think of yourself as a

:51:19.:51:24.

subject nation, repressed place, special case, and I think that's

:51:25.:51:30.

very negative and not usable. Why don't you think there is a clamour

:51:31.:51:34.

for independence by a section of the population as there is in Scotland?

:51:35.:51:40.

I think, possibly, Welsh people are too sensible. There is a sense in

:51:41.:51:46.

which if you turn independence movements into a reverse racism,

:51:47.:51:51.

then we have a problem. What's important about independence is a

:51:52.:51:56.

pride in what is achievable and has been achieved, not a sense of being

:51:57.:52:02.

hard done by, which is one of the primary factors that drives the

:52:03.:52:08.

strong independence movements. Jeff Cuthbert, do you agree with that?

:52:09.:52:13.

Does it come down to attitude? Should the Welsh not be seeing

:52:14.:52:16.

themselves as a subject nation and should be striving more, whoever is

:52:17.:52:22.

in power? Yes, I agree that the situation is different to that in

:52:23.:52:26.

Scotland. Let me make it clear, we hope very much that the people of

:52:27.:52:30.

Scotland do not vote to leave us in Wales by separating from the UK. But

:52:31.:52:34.

there is no appetite for independence in Wales, and I think

:52:35.:52:39.

Griff Rhys Jones is quite right when he says that we don't want special

:52:40.:52:45.

consideration in that sense. We are a proud nation, we want to make sure

:52:46.:52:48.

that the economy is as strong this week can have it, we have a lot of

:52:49.:52:52.

work to do will stop I want to make some points on the issue of

:52:53.:52:56.

education, which the leader of the opposition raised, because we take

:52:57.:52:58.

those matters very, very seriously indeed. Let me ask Andrew RT Davies,

:52:59.:53:06.

what about your relationship with the Welsh Secretary, David Jones

:53:07.:53:08.

question mark how would you describe it? We work very well at the end of

:53:09.:53:14.

the day -- David Jones? How would you describe it? Is the most senior

:53:15.:53:22.

Welsh politician in London, arguing for a better state for Anglesey and

:53:23.:53:25.

the electrification that will take ties between London and Swansea. So

:53:26.:53:31.

why don't you agree on giving or granting Wales tax varying powers,

:53:32.:53:35.

which David Jones would like to see? You are wrong there. We agree with

:53:36.:53:38.

the silk commission recommendations that they should be an element of

:53:39.:53:43.

devolution on income tax. That is in the government strategy. So why did

:53:44.:53:48.

you sack for members of your team? You are talking about a specific

:53:49.:53:54.

measure. That is not the principle of devolving income tax in Cardiff

:53:55.:53:58.

Bay. It's also about devolving stamp duty and other taxes so there is

:53:59.:54:03.

greater fiscal responsibility. And you don't agree on that? We are at

:54:04.:54:10.

the draft stage. What David and myself are completely united over is

:54:11.:54:14.

making sure that future government in Cardiff has an element of fiscal

:54:15.:54:18.

responsibility because that will create better government and better

:54:19.:54:21.

responsibility and accountability in Wales. Gentlemen, thank you very

:54:22.:54:29.

much. Earlier we spoke about Harriet Harman and the links between a civil

:54:30.:54:33.

liberties group she used to work for and paedophile rights campaigners in

:54:34.:54:36.

the 1970s. In the last few moments she has spoken to the TV cameras.

:54:37.:54:42.

Well, I'm not going to apologise, because I've got nothing to

:54:43.:54:45.

apologise for. I very much regret that this vile organisation ever

:54:46.:54:49.

existed and that it ever had anything to do with NCCL, but it did

:54:50.:54:56.

not affect my work at NCCL. They had been pushed to the margins before I

:54:57.:55:01.

even went to NCCL, and to allege I was involved in collusion with

:55:02.:55:06.

paedophilia, or apologising for paedophilia is quite wrong and is a

:55:07.:55:11.

smear. Harriet Harman responding again to the accusations and calls

:55:12.:55:16.

for her to apologise. What does it take to get an issue into the news?

:55:17.:55:20.

A well reasoned argument? A petition? A demonstration? Or

:55:21.:55:22.

perhaps a little bit of stardust. Politicians and campaigners alike

:55:23.:55:25.

are desperate to get celebrities on board, although as David Bowie

:55:26.:55:28.

discovered to his cost last week it can land them in a bit of trouble.

:55:29.:55:34.

The singer ended his acceptance speech at the BRIT Awards with the

:55:35.:55:38.

words, "Scotland stay with us" and promptly faced a barrage of

:55:39.:55:40.

criticism from angry pro-independence campaigners. So is

:55:41.:55:43.

it ever a good thing for celebs to get involved? Here's some who've had

:55:44.:55:48.

a go. Watching that rogues gallery is the

:55:49.:56:57.

writer Zoe Williams. Why would celebrities bother to put their

:56:58.:57:01.

heads above the parapet? They get a hell of a lot of offers, you have to

:57:02.:57:04.

think about how many times people have gone to Angelina Jolie and said

:57:05.:57:09.

they would change their lives if she did it. I think she's a special

:57:10.:57:12.

case, because personally, she has a lot of interest, with those adopted

:57:13.:57:15.

children and the connections in the countries. She became very

:57:16.:57:25.

interested in the whole geopolitical area, and it's completely Judith, --

:57:26.:57:33.

legitimate for her to follow it up. Does it transform the cause really?

:57:34.:57:37.

That is why you entice the celebrities in, but does it change

:57:38.:57:43.

anything? The problem is it is used indiscriminately. If you are

:57:44.:57:45.

somebody with no relevance to the cause, and you're trying to get some

:57:46.:57:49.

following and hijack the popularity, that's problematic. And it bears

:57:50.:57:54.

down on the person themselves. But I think that's unfair. We can't have

:57:55.:57:58.

it both ways. We can't say celebrities cannot intervene,

:57:59.:58:01.

because you're saying you just need to live in your little bubble and

:58:02.:58:05.

not care about the world. Do you get lots of offers? Are they causes you

:58:06.:58:12.

like? There is a big distinction between a political cause and they

:58:13.:58:18.

cause which effectively -- a cause which effectively needs publicity.

:58:19.:58:21.

The reason people involved themselves, and celebrities are the

:58:22.:58:26.

most part, is to get publicity for a forgotten corner or area which needs

:58:27.:58:31.

focus. When celebrities stand up and say they are just being a billboard

:58:32.:58:34.

for this particular area which you might not know about, I don't see

:58:35.:58:43.

that as wrong. I'm afraid we have do end it there. It was short, Zoe, I

:58:44.:58:49.

apologise. That is it for today. Thanks to our guess. Thanks Zoe for

:58:50.:58:55.

coming on at the end -- thanks to our guess. I will be back tomorrow

:58:56.:58:58.

with Andrew. Goodbye.

:58:59.:59:00.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS