Browse content similar to 25/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
Pressure is mounting on Harriet Harman - she says she now "regrets" | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
that a civil liberties group she used to work for had links to | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
pro-paedophile campaigners. We'll look at the details of the claims. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
Labour wants to show they can be responsible bank managers, but do | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
their sums add up? We need more housing, but where on | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
earth do we put it? We'll look at how to square the circle between | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
giving local communities more power, and the need to build more | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
infrastructure. And celebrities and politics - | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
shouldn't they just leave it to the professionals? | :01:10. | :01:21. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
the presenter, writer, comedian and all round good egg Griff Rhys Jones, | :01:25. | :01:33. | |
welcome to the show. Not a celebrity, I have to say, or I | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
wouldn't be able to give my opinion. So let's start today with the | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
pressure that's mounting on Labour's deputy leader Harriet Harman. In | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
recent weeks, the Daily Mail has published a series of reports on the | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
links between a civil liberties group she used to work for and | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
paedophile rights campaigners in the 1970s. The Mail has repeatedly | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
questioned the Labour MP, her husband the MP Jack Dromey and the | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
former Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt about their time working for | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
the National Council for Civil Liberties because of its connection | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
to the Paedophile Information Exchange. That group, which lobbied | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
on behalf of paedophiles, was granted affiliate status to the | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
NCCL. There's no evidence to suggest that Ms Harman, Mr Dromey or Ms | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
Hewitt personally supported the views of the group, but the Mail | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
says she has repeatedly refused to answer its questions and has called | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
her an "apologist for paedophilia". Well, yesterday, Ms Harman said the | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
newspaper's claims were "horrific" and she denied all of them. Here she | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
is on the BBC's Newsnight programme last night. There wasn't an | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
affiliation between the two groups. You make it sound as if there was a | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
mutuality. There wasn't. Technically, there was an | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
affiliation. They were part of the wider group. Was that a mistake? | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
They paid their money to NCCL. NCCL takes money from any lawful | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
organisation and individual. Was it a mistake, to have that affiliation? | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
I think what was right was to dispel them from the conference and to make | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
sure their views were never taken forward. It is a very simple | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
question. Yes or no, was it a mistake to allow an overt group who | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
were publicly campaigning for paedophiles to be affiliated, which | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
is the term they used, to the NCCL when you were the legal officer? I | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
think on the basis it has created somehow a sense that NCCL's work was | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
tainted by them, yes, obviously, that is a very unfortunate inference | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
to have. But it is not the case that my work when I was at NCCL was | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
influenced by them, was apologising all colluding with paedophilia. That | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
is an unfair inference and it is a smear. We can speak to the BBC's | :04:11. | :04:24. | |
James Landale. Why did she not just say it was a mistake? She was caught | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
between two strategies. Her first strategy was to say nothing and hope | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
it would fizzle out. It hasn't, so she was forced to give that | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
interview. I think she didn't want to be seen to give an inch to the | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
Daily Mail. She and other Labour Party members see this as a battle | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
with the Daily Mail in the same way the Labour Party had a battle with | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
regard to articles written about Ralph Miliband. Since she did not | :04:56. | :05:04. | |
want to give an inch, she has expressed regret in a statement at | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
the involvement of Paedophile Information Exchange in the NCCL, | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
but she does not go further than that. She does not want to give any | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
more ground to the Daily Mail. Just to prove that point, Harriet Harman | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
has this morning issued a tweet with a picture in which she says: When it | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
comes to decency and sexualisation of children, would you take lessons | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
from the Daily Mail? And she has a picture which was on the website | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
showing very young women in bikinis. So Harriet Harman is making a clear | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
point that this is now a battle over who is right and wrong. But how much | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
pressure is she now under? This story is escalating. It is not | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
toning down. I remember the police are already investigating | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
information as part of existing operations. There is also a separate | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Home Office enquiry as to whether public money was channelled through | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
the Paedophile Information Exchange. Tom Watson the Labour MP has tweeted | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
this morning saying: Producing this into a row between Harriet Harman | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
and the Daily Mail is not the point. So the story has not reached its end | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
by any means. Joining me now is the femmist writer Julie Bindel. Should | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
Harriet Harman now apologise properly for allowing this | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
affiliation with the Paedophile Information Exchange? Absolutely. It | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
was a huge mistake and it ricocheted across the left at the time. I am a | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
great admirer of Harriet Harman. She has done wonderful work in | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
Parliament as a feminist and she has vilified -- she has been vilified | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
because of that. But the NCCL were absolutely wrong to allow the | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
Paedophile Information Exchange to affiliate. They were using the | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
language of an oppressed when a team, language that oppressed gay | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
groups were using. She should absolutely own up to her mistake. | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
Why was it not challenged more rigorous Lee at the time? You were | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
very much part of the left at that time, why was it not challenged | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
more? I think because, as I said, the Paedophile Information Exchange | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
use the language of liberation struggles. They also suggested this | :07:46. | :07:56. | |
was about a fight for children -- for freedom. Why do you think | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
Harriet Harman is finding it difficult? We heard there that this | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
has been categorised as a battle with the Daily Mail. But generally | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
wide would she find it difficult to say, it was wrong, it was a mistake | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
and I'm sorry? Quite frankly I've no idea and this is not the Harriet | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Harman I know and admire. It strikes me she is refusing to take | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
responsibility and certainly she shouldn't have to take personal | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
responsibility across the board. But she was part of that decision-making | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
process. We know that in the NCCL at the time there were a minority who | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
are challenging this alliance, and we also know that outsiders | :08:42. | :08:49. | |
challenged the fact that they were affiliated with the NCCL. But as I | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
say at the time it was seen as almost homophobic teen named gay men | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
within these child abuse rings as child rapists. People were living in | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
a climate of fear, and was a cultural relativism so people were | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
terrified of being accused of some kind of sexual moralist. We are | :09:13. | :09:22. | |
talking about at the time. This was the 70s. I remember the Paedophile | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
Information Exchange starting this campaign and I think at the time | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
paedophilia was not much on the agenda. People did not have a strong | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
and attitude about it as they do today. There's been a considerable | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
change in our sort of attitude to this, partly as a result of cases | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
coming out. However, I think part of the reason there was such ignorance | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
about this was the terminology. Paedophilia means a lover of | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
children, which is how this organisation presented themselves. | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
It is child rape. Feminists at the time were fighting tooth and nail, | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
some of them within the NCCL, some without, to say, all sex is not good | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
sex. There is nonconsensual sex. You cannot possibly campaign as some gay | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
libertarian men were for the abolition of the age of consent | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
because some men grow up and say they enjoyed abuses children. The | :10:29. | :10:38. | |
language of liberation was what I think really muddied the waters. But | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
it was of course a lawful organisation at the time. The Iraq | :10:44. | :10:52. | |
has changed. -- the era. We're going to leave it there, but thank you. | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
If there's one area more than any other that Labour have had to claw | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
back credibility on during their time in opposition, it's been their | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
handling of the economy. In particular it's their record on | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
spending, that critics say ran out of control towards the end of their | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
time in office and helped contribute to the financial crash and | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
subsequent recession. Well, now Labour have come over all prudent | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
once again, and are promising not only to balance the books in the | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
next parliament, but even to run a surplus on the current budget by | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
2020. In fact, as bank manager in chief Ed Balls is so eager to prove, | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
Labour can be trusted on the economy that they would even pass a law to | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
make sure the Government sticks to tough fiscal rules. But running a | :11:38. | :11:46. | |
current budget surplus wouldn't include borrowing additional money | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
for long-term investments, whereas the Tories have said they'd go | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
further and run an absolute surplus - meaning total Government spending | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
is less than revenue raised. The IFS concluded this would mean Ed Balls | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
could still borrow ?25 billion a year more than George Osborne, as | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
the Tories would be forced to make deeper cuts to public spending from | :12:04. | :12:14. | |
2016. Labour are conducting what they call a zero-based review | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
looking at how every pound in spent by Government, and this morning | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Chris Leslie announced | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
Labour would reform public services to make them more efficient. This | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
includes Fire And Rescue Services sharing buildings with police | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
forces, co-locating County Courts and Magistrates' Courts on the same | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
site, and even the posibilty of scrapping police and crime | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
commissioners which have been introduced by the Coalition | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
Government. Chris Leslie the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury is | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
with us now, along with Treasury Minister Sajid Javid and Ian Swales | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
from the Liberal Democrats. Welcome to all of you. After that very long | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
introduction, Chris Leslie, you said you would make sure to stick to your | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
own fiscal rules you want your manifesto pledges to be audited. All | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
of that, laudable though it may be, is a tacit admission that you lost | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
control of the economy, for which you will now have to be child | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
minded. It is an acknowledgement that, if we win the next general | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
election, on the current plan, we would inherit a ?79 billion | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
deficit. That is a deficit they promised to eradicate. They said we | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
would balance the books completely. It looks as though that will be | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
quite challenging. We've said the Conservatives and Liberals have | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
tried unsuccessfully to balance the books. We will make sure we finished | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
that job in the next Parliament. We are committed to getting the current | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
budget into surplus as soon as possible by the time of the general | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
election after next. That does not answer my question as to why you | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
can't, it seems, be trusted to do this without being checked by the | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
bodies that you are asking to bet your plans. That is an admission | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
that you make mistakes before and you don't think the public will give | :14:02. | :14:15. | |
you the reins second time. Sajid is here because he is on a PR campaign | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
and you will hear from him shortly. I am here today to set out the | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
proposals we have. One aspect of savings needs to come from | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
decluttering public services, because, quite frankly, the lack of | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
reform we've seen from this Government has added bureaucracy and | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
administration. They have not decluttering policing. There are | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
other ways they have added to the cost of the tax payer. Sajid, do you | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
want to respond to that? This is a PR exercise to slander the Labour | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
card -- Labour Party, to keep going back to 2010, when, as we know, | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
there was a global banking crash which did not have anything to do | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
with. That is what the Labour Party want | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
you to believe. But the public knows the reality. This has been billed as | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
a major speech, but hardly anyone has picked up on it, and I think | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
people realise it is another set of gimmicks. They would also rather | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
judge Labour by their actions rather than the cheap words they use now. | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
Back in 1996 there was another Labour Shadow Chancellor called | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
Gordon Brown that promise, in his words, iron discipline with the | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
public finances -- that promised. He stuck to Conservative spending plans | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
and then there was a boom. He stuck to them for a year, but then he let | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
spending gun, and the result was the largest rate of overspending of any | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
developed country in the world -- spending go. The biggest bust the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
country saw in a hundred years and the largest bank bailout the world | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
ever saw. You are saying that Labour Party spending in the UK cause the | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
financial crash that affected the rest of the world? It was a major | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
contributing factor that -- to the troubles we face, and overspending | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
was huge by the beginning of 2007, according to the IMF, and many | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
others, Britain was running the largest deficit of any developed | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
country and what is called a structural deficit. That is a huge | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
rate of overspending, and that was happening before the banking crisis. | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
How is the level of debt going now after four years of coalition | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
government in terms of proportion of GDP? The rate of borrowing is down. | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
What about the debt? When the government took office, you heard | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
Chris talking about what they inherited. The rate of borrowing was | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
?116 billion per year. I'm not asking about borrowing, I'm talking | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
about the debt. Which direction is it going in? Anyone would understand | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
that when you inherit a rate of borrowing it will take time to turn | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
around. George Osborne said he would balance the books by the end of the | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
parliament, so at the end of this, the public is out there thinking, | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
who do we trust to do what they say they will do, bring down borrowing | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
and bring down the levels of debt. It hasn't happened yet with the | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
debt. That is misleading. You can't reduce borrowing until you reduce | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
the rate of borrowing, and that is the deficit. People understand | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
that. Labour don't want people to understand that. What you are not | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
being clear about is that you say you will have this balancing of the | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
books, but you are leaving yourself room to borrow vast amounts of money | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
on what we call capital spending, on infrastructure projects. So on the | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
day-to-day, current spending, you say you will balance the books, but | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
you will spend to invest? It is the same target the current Chancellor | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
has said. He said in this Parliament that his aim was to get the current | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
budget into surplus, and now we have said for the next Parliament that we | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
would target the current budget. It's true we want to reserve the to | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
state of the economy when we get closer to 2015. How much would you | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
like to spend? Capital infrastructure spend is a good way | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
to stimulate the economy, but we've also committed to reduce the level | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
of national debt by the end of the next Parliament. What about the | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
Liberal Democrats? Which planned the fancy, Ian Swales? The Liberal | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
Democrats have not been as clear. Would you have an absolute budget | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
surplus, so you'd include capital spending, or would you allow | :18:54. | :18:55. | |
yourself room to spend more with capital spending? As you might | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
expect, I'm saying we'd be somewhere in the middle. We do believe in a | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
stronger economy and we want to see the deficit brought down to zero, | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
but we also believe, as Chris does, that investing in infrastructure is | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
a good way to go forward, and we are doing more of that now when this | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
government, as recent plans have shown. I also think we do need a | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
change. Page one of the document Chris was speaking about this | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
morning says that the Labour Party would need to govern in a very | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
different way to how they have in the past. I would certainly agree | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
with that. But the test is, can they actually do it, and does anybody | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
believe that they will? If we get elected, we will be saddled with a | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
?79 billion deficit, so we have to make some tough choices. What would | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
they be? That is what everyone is dying to know. You're going to but | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
the 50p tax rate back in. That is one decision that won't be popular | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
with the rich, but it has to be done. It also won't raise any | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
revenue. That's debatable. It is only ?100 million per year, which | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
isn't very much. But today I was talking about the need to get | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
serious about decluttering the number of local bodies we have. We | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
spend ?3 billion on the whole commissioning of architecture in the | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
NHS, and it needs to be Lena. -- it needs to be more lean. Does it make | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
sense that the new Police Commissioner arrangements cost more | :20:32. | :20:33. | |
than the police authorities than they replaced? We don't think it | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
does. We also have the same number of police and fire authorities. At | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
the same time we are looking at losing front line police officers. | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
It were going to make savings, take those costs out of management and | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
bureaucracy rather than the front line. That is something that this | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
government's spending approach has failed to do. Let's look at the tax | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
and spend and departmental spending. Do you think that the departments | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
that are not ring fenced will be able to withstand 7% cuts in their | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
current spending, year on year? Can I correct something Chris has said. | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
The commitment is Shadow Chancellor made -- his Shadow Chancellor made | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
was about current spending, but we are talking about total spending | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
much over the next few years, by 2019, we plan to eliminate the | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
deficit whether it is capital spending or current spending. We | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
believe that a country must live within its means, and what it spends | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
must be covered by tax. We will not sign up to the gimmicks that the | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
Labour Party use, like differentiating between capital and | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
current. Can I ask, if you're going to try and balance the books, you | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
will not spend to invest, so how are you going to build the houses for | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
the future and the schools for the future and the hospitals if you | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
won't spend to invest? We are going to spend to invest that we will make | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
sure it's raised through taxes. Broadly we have had a decade of flat | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
spending for the NHS, so are you saying over the next Parliament we | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
will have to reduce public spending to a level never seen before because | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
public spending investment is going to generally come down? I'm not | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
saying that, I'm saying we are reducing the rate of borrowing that | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
means we have to keep looking at finding ways to find more savings, | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
and I don't doubt for a minute that it will be difficult as it has been | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
in the last few years. But we are determined to make the tough | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
decisions. Labour had opportunity after opportunity in the last few | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
years to support some of the tough decisions, such as welfare spending, | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
and they voted against every single one of the initiatives. On welfare | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
spending do you support the idea of another ?12 billion being taken out | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
of the welfare budget after 2015? Frankly, no, we have to look | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
carefully at welfare spending. We want to have a fair society and we | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
think those that need help should get it, but we also accept that some | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
changes were needed and we have supported the changes that have | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
already taken place. Would you go into another coalition with the | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
Conservatives with George Osborne saying they need to take another ?12 | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
billion? We will be fighting the next election with independent | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
programmes. If we go into coalition again, we will fight out a programme | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
like last time but that does not mean we accept everything in the | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Tory party manifesto. You seem to ally yourself closer to the Labour | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
Party. I did ask you a specific question, but you want to spend to | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
invest, but your not keen on the welfare cuts at George Osborne | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
suggested. What about the personal tax allowance? If we are talking | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
about the raising of the threshold for basic rate, we would like to see | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
it go further. We would like to get it up to the minimum wage level | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
which would bring it roughly in line with the living wage, which I think | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
is an important milestone. Is that affordable? We want to see lower | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
taxes. A lot of money to raise the threshold. Yes, but we still want to | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
reduce taxes for people who have the lowest take-home pay. Take it away | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
through VAT and cuts to tax credits then? Come on. I want to ask you | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
about Harriet Harman which is the story mainly being discussed today. | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
Should she fully apologise to the organisation that she worked for | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
having the Paedophile Information Exchange as an affiliate | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
organisation? Harriet has been under a lot of attack by the Daily Mail on | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
this and she has said that she regrets that this odious | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
organisation had this affiliation with the NCCL 30 years ago. Is that | :24:46. | :24:54. | |
enough? She's being accused of being an apologist for paedophilia. There | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
can be nothing more absurd or hurtful. It is an appalling thing | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
for her to deal with. I'm sure nobody round this table really | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
thinks that that is the essence of Harriet Harman. But to draw a line, | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
should she make a full apology? I actually think she said the right | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
thing in terms of regretting that this organisation has now been | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
allowed to besmirch a lot of the good work that the organisation she | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
was with at the time was doing. That is a different order of issue as to | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
whether she is an apologist for paedophilia, which has been on the | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
front page of the Daily Mail for the past four days. You think they are | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
running a smear campaign? Undoubtedly. There are many things | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
going on in politics but I hope none of us would never resort to that | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
level of mudslinging, that sort of ridiculous accusation. It is just | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
absurd. Thank you, gentlemen. It is a perennial headache for governments | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
of all persuasions. We the public want more homes, improved transport | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
links and a new generation of power plants, but just not in the | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
backyard. Get it wrong, and ministers stand accused of drawing | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
up a charter for not in my backyard types, or concreting over England. | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
But can the balance be pulled off? Here's David. | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
If only planning was this simple. The Piper Central London model. | :26:22. | :26:31. | |
Neat, and not a protest inside. When the coalition came to power they | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
promised people are much greater say in the things that really mattered | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
to them, like what's get built -- what gets built and where. But they | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
also need to do the big things like transport links, power stations and | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
of course, a lot more housing. So how do they do that and keep the | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
locals happy at the same time? In England, the government has scrapped | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
regional planning targets and given community greater input into what | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
gets built in their areas. But they've also slimmed down planning | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
policy from literally thousands of pages to just over 50, and they want | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
to see thousands of homes built in the coming years. That has led some | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
to wonder what local is really means. The trouble with localism is | :27:07. | :27:15. | |
that it means all things to all men and women, and we created a | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
situation of unreasonable expectations. People thought it | :27:20. | :27:21. | |
meant they could say no when sometimes they can't, and also, it's | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
about having localism introduced in planning without it being introduced | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
in some other areas which are very centralised. The government have | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
also made it harder to use judicial reviews as a way of stalling | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
development, yet some people feel that the dice is loaded in the | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
favour of those opposed to new schemes rather than those who need | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
somewhere to live. We need local, trusted champions, making the same | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
sort of case for housing in their area as say, for example, the Royal | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
Society for the Protection of Birds does for birds. At the same time as | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
championing localism, control over infrastructure projects has been | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
moved to ministers, which might make the more democratic, but also more | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
difficult to stop. Is there actually a way of squaring the circle? The | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
problem at the moment is that local communities and councils have very | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
little financial incentive to allow building of any kind, commercial or | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
residential or infrastructure, in their areas. We have to change that | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
and allow those local communities to reap the benefits of development | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
were not just to feel the pain. We all, collectively, did not really | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
make the case for housing, but what we need in terms of | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
telecommunications infrastructure, what we need in terms of energy to | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
keep the lights on, what we need to build in terms of connectivity, | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
getting people from a to B. We have to persuade the public that not only | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
do we need these things as a nation, and in their place, but it | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
actually translates to stuff in their area. Ministers get paid to | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
take the big decisions, the ones which shape a nation. In planning, | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
they have to decide to what extent they are on the side of the little | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
guy. Our guest of the day, Griff Rhys Jones, is president of Civic | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
Voice, and we are joined by the Conservative MP John Howell. Griff | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
Rhys Jones, would you say as a civic minded person that you automatically | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
and not in my backyard type? I am in that I think that they are a good | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
idea. Where it is important that people take a concern or interest in | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
what happens in their local environment, that's a valid and | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
important thing. It was set up by a Conservative government, the civic | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
movement, Duncan Sands put it in in order to help people to be involved | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
in what is happening in their own area. Too often is the idea that | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
it's perpetrated by a group of people stopping everything | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
happening. What most people feel is they think, how did that happen? | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
What is earthy -- on earth is happening question why do I live in | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
an area where there is a derelict site that has been a derelict site | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
for maybe getting on for 50 years in central London? We can walk around | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
central London and wonder why that happens, and why is that the case, | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
so it's not just a question looking at people from the point of view of | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
saying they are naysayers. They are people who might be concerned about | :30:28. | :30:35. | |
what's happening in their area. And are you concerned about planning | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
reforms? I'm concerned about aspects of them. I worry there might be an | :30:40. | :30:49. | |
idea we can reduce planning legislation to 65 pages when that | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
cannot be the case. Planning starts at the front gate and the way it | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
evolved over the last 50 years is effectively to deal with all the | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
different conditions that came into play, with different and local | :31:02. | :31:12. | |
considerations will stop --. If we chop that down then there will be | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
additions in the future because simple sentences are open to | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
complicated interpretations, even when they are good sentences. And | :31:23. | :31:31. | |
erosion of the green belt. The point about reducing the legislation, as | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
it were, the guidance, down to 50 pages, is I think a misunderstood | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
one. What we did is to take over 1000 pages, and through an | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
enormously long process, boil it down to 50 pages of concise | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
information that is compressible. But it is ambiguous and can be | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
interpreted then in lots of different ways. Also, as many in | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
your own party feel, it gives developers the right. I don't think | :32:03. | :32:10. | |
it does at all. National policy framework introduces practically | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
nothing do. -- new. All it does is take existing guidance and boil it | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
down to 50 pages. That has been of enormous value to people and in my | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
own constituency neighbourhood planning has been introduced and is | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
going very well. The civic interest has been shown enormously by people | :32:36. | :32:44. | |
in my constituency. One in ten people turned up to the same polling | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
booth and only voted for the referendum, they did not vote for | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
the County Council election on the same day. Is John Howell right when | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
he says it does not give builders more right to interpret the guidance | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
to their advantage? I don't think he is right. The framework is an | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
interesting and worthwhile document. What is more complicated as some of | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
the guidelines that have gone out to local authorities. They need a | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
five-year land plan and some have not been given enough time to do | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
that. Consequently, there are gaps which are being exploited by | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
developers, because, effectively, they are saying, look, there is a | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
piece of secondary legislation which says if you as a council have not | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
done this, these guidelines will apply willy-nilly. As a result, | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
there are some bad developments happening. We must never forget that | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
over 90% of planning applications did go through. It is the 10% of | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
rather bad planning applications which are now... Let me pick you up | :33:52. | :34:01. | |
on Matt. 76% of councils have at least a draft planning process. -- | :34:02. | :34:10. | |
pick you up on that. That is a good thing. Without that plan, people are | :34:11. | :34:19. | |
exposed to this. All we're asking them to do is, when they are putting | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
forward their plans, we asked them to prove they deliver them. Do you | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
accept you have ditched this idea of Brownfield only sites first. No, not | :34:32. | :34:40. | |
in the slightest. You are not said that they had to be looked at first. | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
The National Trust says its research shows that half of councils with | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
green belt land are preparing to allocate some of it to development | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
while Brownfield sites are overlooked. Not at all. They are | :34:52. | :35:01. | |
still the priority. Priority is not the same as saying it has to be. I | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
can give you an example. In Bradford, people have gone to the | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
council and said it is not financially viable for us to develop | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
Brownfield sites. It is only financially viable for us to develop | :35:16. | :35:24. | |
in other places, areas of rather beautiful green field values, around | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
existing villages. So they had been allocated to expansion for the | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
simple reason that developers have set a standard for themselves. | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
They've said, we could not possibly make profit out of this. Councils do | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
not have too accept what developers tell them and they do not accept. | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
They have to test viability arguments. Are they able to actually | :35:49. | :35:57. | |
fight those decisions? Under planning regulations, they become | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
liable for failed appeals, and therefore when they are strapped for | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
cash... They always have been! I know they always have been, but the | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
presumption is, actually, with the developer. It is also to people | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
fighting bad ideas. They becoming sourced it and may simply be | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
appealed. The presumption is neighbourhood planning is the way | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
forward. We have almost 800 communities around the country | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
engaging in neighbourhood planning. They are engaging with your civic | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
pride. The worry is that will not result in anything because it will | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
all be called off. We have to leave it there, but thank you. | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
The IT company ATOS, which delivers disability benefit assessments, was | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
repeatedly warned by the Government to improve its service, according to | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
the disabilities minister Mike Penning. ATOS has said it wants to | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
leave its Government contract early and when asked yesterday in the | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
Commons, Mr Penning said he intends to get out of the deal and claimed | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
it won't cost the taxpayer extra money. The issue is to do would be | :37:05. | :37:15. | |
an acceptable backlog that ATOS have built up. -- to do with the | :37:16. | :37:32. | |
unacceptable backlog. Given that ATOS have announced they want to | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
withdraw from the contract negotiated with the party opposite, | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
will he agree with me it would be a disgrace if the hard-pressed | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
taxpayer had to pay any form of compensation to this company? ATOS | :37:44. | :37:51. | |
has acted as a lightning rod for all that is wrong with this assessment. | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
They are delivering a contract to Government specified guidelines. It | :37:56. | :38:12. | |
is no surprise to many that ATOS, appointed by the last Labour | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
Government, have now failed their own work capability assessment. | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
Considering appeals upheld were 40% of original decisions, what can be | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
done now to make sure those original decisions in the first place are far | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
more accurate? We're joined now by Anne Begg, who's | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee, and you saw her | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
there speaking in the debate. Is Labour to blame for this? We signed | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
the original contract, but this company -- this coalition | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
renegotiated that. Also what this Government did was roll out much | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
more quickly the migration from incapacity benefit on to employment | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
and allowance. But there are flaws in the contract. ATOS say they want | :39:05. | :39:13. | |
to terminate the contract because of persistent threats against their | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
staff. Do you think they are justified in pulling the plug? I | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
would've liked the Government to pull the plug earlier. We've been | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
calling for that for some time now. If ATOS failed to deliver, they | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
don't actually seem to suffer any penalty. In this case, I feel | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
slightly sorry for the company. They've become the lightning rod | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
which has attracted all the unhappiness about the work | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
capability assessments have been carried out. All the hatred and | :39:44. | :39:52. | |
upset has been poured on them. As the week there were demonstrations | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
outside many of their officers. So I can understand as a company they | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
must fear their reputation -- fear for their reputation. It is | :40:02. | :40:10. | |
perfectly understandable why the people who have been failed by the | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
system are feeling very annoyed. They want help, many of them want to | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
go back to work. In the media, they are portrayed as lazy. They are | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
not, they want help, but also to do a job they can do. And when they are | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
ill, they do not want to be badgered into always having to go back into | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
the job centre to sign-on. The Government has been keen to reduce | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
the welfare bill. They say tests were not stringent enough, too many | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
were on incapacity benefits. Then you hear these terrible stories of | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
people being put through what are probably humiliating experiences to | :40:53. | :40:54. | |
get benefits they feel they rightly deserve. I once met a doctor in | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
Northern Ireland who explained one of the problems with new legislation | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
which was designed to catch cheats or people exploiting the system is | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
that the actual people exploiting the system continue to find their | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
way around it. The people who really suffer those who deserve assistance | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
and help the most. Putting in some safeguards against that happening is | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
part of the business of making sure the contract is well done. On the | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
other hand, this is a farce that is happening democratically and is a | :41:31. | :41:41. | |
useful bus -- is useful tool to bring it into the public eye. We | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
have to continue looking at these things. Who will foot the Bill? I | :41:46. | :41:54. | |
honestly don't know, I haven't seen the contract because of | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
confidentiality. So the select committee has not been able to study | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
the contract. The minister was saying yesterday they could not get | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
out of the contract in 2010 because it would cost a lot of money, but | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
they don't seem to be saying it now. So I don't know if that is true or | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
not. The taxpayer at the moment is paying a huge amount for a flawed | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
system. Huge amounts are being paid to reassess people that really | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
should not be reassessed. I had a 64-year-old person about to go | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
through his assessment this week. By the time he goes through the system, | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
he will be on the state pension. That is a waste of money and a lot | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
of activists are saying this is wasting huge amounts of Government | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
money and is not getting the right result. Thank you. | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
Scottish Independence is understandably dominating the news | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
agenda at the moment, but in Wales there are also important debates | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
underway about how the country is run. Since devolution, Wales has | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
gone its own way in a number of areas, not least in health and | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
education, so should the nation be seen as a trailblazer for the rest | :43:04. | :43:05. | |
of the UK? Devolution can create laboratory of | :43:06. | :43:29. | |
ideas for the rest of the UK. It is an idea which has long been | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
articulated. Wales has been busy experimenting since 1999. | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
Prescriptions in Wales have been free since 2007, an idea adopted by | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
governments in Northern Ireland and Scotland, who also followed the lead | :43:45. | :43:51. | |
of Wales in charging plastic bags. The ban on smoking was first | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
introduced in Scotland, but Welsh Assembly members had voted for it | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
three years earlier. A snapshot of policy development across the UK. | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
But do we learn enough from each other? It is difficult at the moment | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
for the devolved governments to speak to and learn from each other. | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
We still have a bit of a risk where we are not learning from others as | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
quickly as we code, both in terms of best practice and policy failure. It | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
would be good to have more definite mechanisms in place so the | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
governments of the nations can learn more effectively from each other. | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
With governments of a different colour at both ends of the M4, there | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
is unlikely to be too much policy adoption. They are frequently at | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
loggerheads over big-ticket items such as education and welfare. We | :44:43. | :44:56. | |
have to make it clear that Blair's speech was for England only, not for | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
Wales. Then we widened it into a broad and back broader issue, just | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
to make it clear to the people of Wales that there was a distinct | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
Welsh emphasis to the programme we would be drawing up to put in a | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
A distinctive Welsh programme that rejects the marketisation of | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
services but with Wales languishing at the bottom of education tables | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
and regularly missing key health targets, critics argue it is the | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
wrong programme. Nevertheless, Wales voted in 2011 to give the assembly | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
the necessary tools to make further changes. The referendum to give the | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
Assembly full lawmaking powers hardly caught the imagination, but | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
it did mark a significant step in the devolution journey. I would love | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
to have the powers that Carwyn Jones has now. Had it been available to me | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
in the year 2000 when I took over as First Minister, because it was quite | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
frustrating having to ask Westminster to pass legislation on | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
our behalf. And powers and the possible devolution of further | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
policy areas could see the Welsh laboratory become more experimental | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
in the years to come, but has it so far produced any eureka moments? | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
That is a matter of debate. After all, policy development can be more | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
of an art than a science. We have heard about the record of devolution | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
in Wales, but what about the Labour run Welsh government? How are they | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
faring? Well we can speak now to Jeff Cuthbert, Communities Minister | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
in the Welsh government, and Andrew RT Davies, leader of the Welsh | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
Conservatives. Welcome to both of you. Jeff Cuthbert, why do Welsh | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
hospitals underperform? I think we need to be careful with statements | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
like that. What that does is create a lot of mistrust and fright amongst | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
patients. Patient satisfaction, those using the NHS in Wales, that | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
shows a satisfaction rate of over 90% so it's not fair to say | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
hospitals are underperforming. There will be incidents from time to | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
time, and those are investigated, as is happening at the moment with a | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
couple of hospitals. There are figures here I'd say 50% of Welsh | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
patients wait six weeks for bowel cancer scans compared to 2% in | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
England, simile for MRI scans, and 80% of patients were waiting similar | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
for your ring tests which can be used to detect bladder cancer. -- | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
your ring test. You are comparing apples and pears. The issue of | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
waiting times in England is calculated in a different way from | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
waiting times in Wales. That doesn't mean we don't look at the issue and | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
try and improve matters, but the raw comparison is unfair, and it doesn't | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
produce realistic comparisons. That has been accepted by the medical | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
profession. Andrew Davies, this is a political football, isn't it? We | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
often hear in Prime Minister's Question Time, look at the Labour | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
record in Wales, it's just an easy slogan to bash the Labour Party? I | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
don't think that's the case at all. If you look at the big ticket items | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
like the economy, health, education, regrettably Wales does lag behind | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
other parts of the UK. It's not because the Welsh aren't in -- | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
aspiring to be the best at everything, it's just the Welsh | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
government policy lead since they took power in 1999. So surely you | :48:34. | :48:41. | |
and your colleagues are accountable? Let's be clear, Andrew Davies | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
mentions the economy. The latest figures show that unemployment in | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
Wales is lower than in the rest of the UK, and in the crucial area of | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
young people, 16 and 17-year-old, there has been a 22% drop in the | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
numbers out of work. A lot down to the successful growth scheme which | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
is creating 10,000 opportunities. As I am talking to you, the First | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
Minister is in the US looking to win good contracts for Wales, inward | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
investment, and promoting Wales as a tourist centre. We are doing our | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
best to raise the profile. It is disappointing that the leader of the | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
opposition continues to talk Wales down. Andrew RT Davies, are you | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
talking Wales down because it is politically expedient? Far from it. | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
I see huge ambition in Wales but the facts speak for themselves. If you | :49:32. | :49:42. | |
look at GBA -- GVA, we are 70% less than the rest of the UK. The | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
government set a goal of 90% GVA. Look out waiting times in the NHS, | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
one in seven people in Wales are on a waiting list, and the cancer | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
waiting times have not been met since 2009. And education, if you | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
take the internationally recognised standard, regrettably, year on year, | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
we have got worse in those assessments. It's not because the | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
people of Wales don't have the ambition, or because the | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
professionals in the areas haven't got the desire to get on in life, | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
it's because the policy direction that the Welsh Labour government | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
have set and been responsible for since 1999 since the assembly came | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
into being. Griff Rhys Jones, had you think Wales is faring? I have to | :50:27. | :50:33. | |
speak to somebody who runs two businesses in Wales, both of which | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
are run by people who are very dedicated and very good people, so I | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
don't find any sense in which the idea that Wales is not a place where | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
business can thrive has any validity. But also, what's important | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
for Wales is to be aware that, just like any other country, if it has a | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
priority about its economy and about its organisation. Do you think the | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
priorities right in Wales at the moment? It's all raise the wrong | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
thing to stand back and say we are fine, don't pick on us because we | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
are Welsh. There is a sense in which we ought to be trying to achieve | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
better standards, and I hope that that would be something that is | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
important. There is a tendency in Wales to think of yourself as a | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
subject nation, repressed place, special case, and I think that's | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
very negative and not usable. Why don't you think there is a clamour | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
for independence by a section of the population as there is in Scotland? | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
I think, possibly, Welsh people are too sensible. There is a sense in | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
which if you turn independence movements into a reverse racism, | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
then we have a problem. What's important about independence is a | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
pride in what is achievable and has been achieved, not a sense of being | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
hard done by, which is one of the primary factors that drives the | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
strong independence movements. Jeff Cuthbert, do you agree with that? | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
Does it come down to attitude? Should the Welsh not be seeing | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
themselves as a subject nation and should be striving more, whoever is | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
in power? Yes, I agree that the situation is different to that in | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
Scotland. Let me make it clear, we hope very much that the people of | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
Scotland do not vote to leave us in Wales by separating from the UK. But | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
there is no appetite for independence in Wales, and I think | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
Griff Rhys Jones is quite right when he says that we don't want special | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
consideration in that sense. We are a proud nation, we want to make sure | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
that the economy is as strong this week can have it, we have a lot of | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
work to do will stop I want to make some points on the issue of | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
education, which the leader of the opposition raised, because we take | :52:57. | :52:58. | |
those matters very, very seriously indeed. Let me ask Andrew RT Davies, | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
what about your relationship with the Welsh Secretary, David Jones | :53:07. | :53:08. | |
question mark how would you describe it? We work very well at the end of | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
the day -- David Jones? How would you describe it? Is the most senior | :53:15. | :53:22. | |
Welsh politician in London, arguing for a better state for Anglesey and | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
the electrification that will take ties between London and Swansea. So | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
why don't you agree on giving or granting Wales tax varying powers, | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
which David Jones would like to see? You are wrong there. We agree with | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
the silk commission recommendations that they should be an element of | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
devolution on income tax. That is in the government strategy. So why did | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
you sack for members of your team? You are talking about a specific | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
measure. That is not the principle of devolving income tax in Cardiff | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
Bay. It's also about devolving stamp duty and other taxes so there is | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
greater fiscal responsibility. And you don't agree on that? We are at | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
the draft stage. What David and myself are completely united over is | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
making sure that future government in Cardiff has an element of fiscal | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
responsibility because that will create better government and better | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
responsibility and accountability in Wales. Gentlemen, thank you very | :54:22. | :54:29. | |
much. Earlier we spoke about Harriet Harman and the links between a civil | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
liberties group she used to work for and paedophile rights campaigners in | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
the 1970s. In the last few moments she has spoken to the TV cameras. | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
Well, I'm not going to apologise, because I've got nothing to | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
apologise for. I very much regret that this vile organisation ever | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
existed and that it ever had anything to do with NCCL, but it did | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
not affect my work at NCCL. They had been pushed to the margins before I | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
even went to NCCL, and to allege I was involved in collusion with | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
paedophilia, or apologising for paedophilia is quite wrong and is a | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
smear. Harriet Harman responding again to the accusations and calls | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
for her to apologise. What does it take to get an issue into the news? | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
A well reasoned argument? A petition? A demonstration? Or | :55:21. | :55:22. | |
perhaps a little bit of stardust. Politicians and campaigners alike | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
are desperate to get celebrities on board, although as David Bowie | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
discovered to his cost last week it can land them in a bit of trouble. | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
The singer ended his acceptance speech at the BRIT Awards with the | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
words, "Scotland stay with us" and promptly faced a barrage of | :55:39. | :55:40. | |
criticism from angry pro-independence campaigners. So is | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
it ever a good thing for celebs to get involved? Here's some who've had | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
a go. Watching that rogues gallery is the | :55:49. | :56:57. | |
writer Zoe Williams. Why would celebrities bother to put their | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
heads above the parapet? They get a hell of a lot of offers, you have to | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
think about how many times people have gone to Angelina Jolie and said | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
they would change their lives if she did it. I think she's a special | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
case, because personally, she has a lot of interest, with those adopted | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
children and the connections in the countries. She became very | :57:16. | :57:25. | |
interested in the whole geopolitical area, and it's completely Judith, -- | :57:26. | :57:33. | |
legitimate for her to follow it up. Does it transform the cause really? | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
That is why you entice the celebrities in, but does it change | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
anything? The problem is it is used indiscriminately. If you are | :57:44. | :57:45. | |
somebody with no relevance to the cause, and you're trying to get some | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
following and hijack the popularity, that's problematic. And it bears | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
down on the person themselves. But I think that's unfair. We can't have | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
it both ways. We can't say celebrities cannot intervene, | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
because you're saying you just need to live in your little bubble and | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
not care about the world. Do you get lots of offers? Are they causes you | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
like? There is a big distinction between a political cause and they | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
cause which effectively -- a cause which effectively needs publicity. | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
The reason people involved themselves, and celebrities are the | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
most part, is to get publicity for a forgotten corner or area which needs | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
focus. When celebrities stand up and say they are just being a billboard | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
for this particular area which you might not know about, I don't see | :58:35. | :58:43. | |
that as wrong. I'm afraid we have do end it there. It was short, Zoe, I | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
apologise. That is it for today. Thanks to our guess. Thanks Zoe for | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
coming on at the end -- thanks to our guess. I will be back tomorrow | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
with Andrew. Goodbye. | :58:59. | :59:00. |