Browse content similar to 27/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to The Daily Politics. German Chancellor | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
Angela Merkel gets the red carpet treatment. She's about to address | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
MPs and peers in the Royal Gallery, but has she brought enough | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
eurosceptic goodies for David Cameron to keep Conservative | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
backbenchers happy? The Government launches its strategy | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
for eradicating child poverty, but why they can't they agree what child | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
poverty is? You've heard of fly-tipping but what | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
about horse fly-grazing? Horses are being abandoned in farmers' fields | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
across the country but what should be done about it? | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
And it could make and break political reputations. We look back | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
at Spitting Image on its 30th anniversary. | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
All that in the next hour, and viewers tuning in specifically to | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
see Janet Street Porter to hear her pearls of wisdom on today's stories | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
will be disappointed. She pulled out a little more than an hour ago. But | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
stepping valiantly into the breach and with us for the duration is | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
Times columnist Matthew Parris. Thank you, Matthew, and welcome to | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
the programme. Eye and the thinking man's Janet Street Porter! I'm glad | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
you said that! Let's start with Northern Ireland, | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
because the First Minister Peter Robinson has threatened to resign | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
unless there is a judicial review into a decision by a judge to throw | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
out a case against John Downey, who is suspected of being responsible | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
for the Hyde Park bombing in 1982, which killed four soldiers. Mr | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
Downey is amongst almost 200 Republican paramilitaries who have | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
been sent letters promising they won't be prosecuted for crimes | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
committed during the Troubles. Let's talk to our Northern Ireland | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
reporter Chris Page, who's at Stormont. Chris, this is escalating | :02:18. | :02:26. | |
into a full-blown editable crisis, isn't it? Crisis is certainly a word | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
you are hearing quite often in Northern Ireland this morning. The | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
Democratic Unionist First Minister Peter Robinson says he will quit | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
unless he gets that additional enquiry into the issue and also he | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
wants the government to rescind those 187 letters which have gone to | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
Republican terror suspects, saying they would not be prosecuted. He met | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
with the Secretary of State to reasonable as last night. This | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
morning, it is the turn of the Deputy First Minister, Martin | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
McGuinness, to meet with the First Secretary. He has spoken to the | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
media and called for cool heads and steady leadership. In response to | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
questions about the threat to resign, he said it would achieve | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
absolutely nothing and that the outcome would be that they would be | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
fresh elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly. -- they would be. | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
You do get a sense that the crisis is deepening. The Northern Ireland | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
Assembly is to be called on Friday to discuss this matter and Mr | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
Robinson says what he says in that Assembly debate. But what happens | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
now? Because if Peter Robinson has threatened to resign unless his | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
conditions are met, it seems difficult to see a compromise? Well, | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
that is right. The room for manoeuvre he has is quite limited. | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
That is becoming quite clear. It is not the first time he has threatened | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
to resign. Couple of years ago he made a threat over the issue of | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
emblems on the uniforms of prison officers. That said, this crisis | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
seems to be much more serious in that Mr Robinson says this is a | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
fundamental principle of why he went into government with Sinn Fein. He | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
said had he known about these letters, he would not have agreed to | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
go back into government with Sinn Fein several years ago when they | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
were sharing the Assembly here. There is going to be lots of | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
discussion over the next 24 hours on exactly who knew what and when. | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
Martin McGuinness is adamant all the political parties in Northern | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
Ireland knew about a scheme to deal with these people who were on the | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
run and the Democratic Unionist Party have said they did not know | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
about these letters, the detail. Martin McGuinness says this issue | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
was raised with the Policing Board. That will be a key question asked | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
over the next few days or so and tomorrow eyes will be on the debate | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
here instalment. Thank you. Matthew Parris, Peter Hain, Labour's former | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
Northern Ireland Secretary, has said in order to bring old at arrivals to | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
the table and secure that piece, side deals had to be done? Do you | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
think he has a point? -- peace. This is very Blairite and this affair has | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Tony Blair written all over it. This regard for due process and the rule | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
of law and to hope that by the time the thing services, one will have | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
gone somewhere else! I believe David Trimble on the BBC this morning when | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
he says that he didn't know and he ought to have known. He ought to | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
have known about these things. You don't think it was worth it, even | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
if, at the time it had come to the fore and people had known about it, | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
there might not have been a deal and we might not have had a peace | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
process that resulted in power-sharing in Northern Ireland? | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
That will be the Blairite argument, too. Sorry, chaps, we had to do it. | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
You would not have had an agreement. He was wobbled under the fuss at the | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
time but that related to people already in prison. -- viewers will | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
remember. The right thing to have done would have been to pursue them, | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
catch them, can the them and then pardoned them, as those already in | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
prison were pardoned. It could already have been done and people | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
would have wanted that but it would have been messy politically and this | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
was a way of avoiding an immediate political mess. Do you think a | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
solution or compromise can be found? Yes. Peter Robinson can postpone his | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
threatened resignation until after a big enquiry has reported and slowly | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
it will go into the thank you. Let's leave it there. | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Now it's time for our daily quiz. During Angela Merkel's last visit to | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
the UK, she was given a DVD box set of one of her favourite programmes | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
by David Cameron, so our question today is which box set was it? | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
At the end of the show, Matthew will give us the correct answer. | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
Now, she's arguably the most powerful woman in the world and | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
she's certainly getting the red-carpet treatment today. She's | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
having lunch at Downing Street, meeting the Queen for tea, and her | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
motorcade has just been taken through the Sovereign's Entrance of | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
the Palace of Westminster, where she has been afforded the rare privilege | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
of addressing both Houses of Parliament in the Royal Gallery. | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Giles is just outside Parliament for us. Have you seen her go by? I have | :07:31. | :07:38. | |
indeed! About ten minutes ago looking quite eager as she came into | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the entrance, because, as you say, not everybody gets driven straight | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
in. The rest of security had to stand outside. And a large | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
entourage. But of course she did, because she is Europe's most | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
powerful leader. Great Britain is going all out to give her a red | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
carpet visit. It is to say, you are a very, very important relation and | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
the relationship between us is important. Germany seems to be | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
saying, yes, you are important, Great Britain, but you are not the | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
only one we deal with in Europe. She will be talking to both Houses of | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
Parliament, and some people, particularly Conservative | :08:22. | :08:22. | |
backbenchers, will be listening very carefully to what she has to say. | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
Has she brought with her a load of goodies about Reid he's that will | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
work for a nicely for them? -- treaties. Maybe she wants to be very | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
precise about what she says because she will be delivering the speech in | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
German. Though she talks about negotiation changes and she has made | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
warm words, the suspicion is these things would be enough, and there is | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
a feeling on the German side, certainly if you talk to | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
policymakers in Germany, that they are not entirely sure what it is | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
Great Britain wants. Hopefully by the end of the day, we might find | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
out what she is going to give or is prepared to give, whether it will be | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
enough and whether Britain is going to be more explicit about what it | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
wants. Well, a lot rides on this, no doubt about it. And there has been | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
an awful moth of hype. But is this a case of expectation management after | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
the event? 's big yellow there is no doubt about that because there will | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
be certain people who will say, I didn't hear about anything there | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
that helps with renegotiation and it should be out. And you will see that | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
from UKIP and others like that. You might see some back ensures who just | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
don't want to be part of the European Union. Others will say, the | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
Prime Minister is on the right lines and we can develop more. There will | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
be some who say, we told you, this isn't going to work. Renegotiation | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
isn't going to happen. And, besides, she might be the most powerful | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
leader in Europe but she is not the only powerful leader in Europe. As | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
they say, there is still some confusion in Europe as to exactly | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
what it is Great Britain once. Just hold fire because I think we | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
have some pictures we can show of the German Chancellor, Angela | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
Merkel, arriving. There she is coming in with the speaker, John | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
Bercow, behind her, coming into the Royal Gallery to address both Houses | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
of Parliament, with a round of applause for her. As you say, all | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
part of the red-carpet treatment. Quite a historic moment because it | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
has been 40 years since the last German Chancellor addressed both | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
Houses of Parliament, and there is David Cameron. Thank you. We will be | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
following the event. And we can speak now to Thomas Matussek, the | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
former German ambassador to the UK. We are hoping to be joined from | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
Strasbourg by Syed Kamall, the Conservative Leader in the European | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
Parliament. And Roland Rudd is here in the studio. Welcome to you. Will | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
this charm offensive work? The red-carpet treatment? Will she be | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
impressed? I think she will be impressed and what she wants is to | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
underline that we think it is a very, very important thing that | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
Britain stays engaged in the heart of Europe and Angela Merkel has said | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
time and again that in order to have a strong euro in a globalised world, | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
we need a strong Great Britain. Great Britain brings to the table a | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
lot of things which are desperately needed in Europe right now. A sense | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
of pragmatism, a conviction that a free-market economy is the right | :11:37. | :11:46. | |
philosophical basis, a sense of subsidiaryness, a de Gea full | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
version against too much bureaucracy. These are all issues | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
which are very, very important and Britain makes its case in Europe | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
this way. But what can she realistically and in concrete terms | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
of the David Cameron today? I think what she wants to point out is that | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
there are a lot of things where we can make the EU more pragmatic, more | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
practical, more anti-bureaucratic without changing the treaties. | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
Because I think she would not offer a treaty change because we consider | :12:25. | :12:32. | |
that a can of worms. Look, if you have 28 member states and you open | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
the treaty to one of them, everyone will be coming in, trying to write | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
their own hobbyhorses, but we think that there is a lot of scope below | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
the threshold of treaty change. Right. Roland Rudd, David Cameron, | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
or certainly his Eurosceptic benchers, will be disappointed that | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
there won't be this case for a wholesale treaty reform, which is | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
really what they are looking at? Well, it has been obvious for a | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
while that there will not be any treaty change by 2017, and it is not | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
just France that has said no to it. So we should not be surprised by | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
that. But there is a huge amount of four we can have without treaty | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
reform. We can push hard on these free trade agreements on these most | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
powerful nations of the world and also enhance London's position as | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
Europe's financial centre and a global financial centre or without | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
treaty change. So we do need that to see more reform in the European | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
Union. But will that be enough for a romp of Tory backbenchers who want | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
to see far more than that? In fact, they have even drawn out a manifesto | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
with far reaching reforms that would require some sort of change or a | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
revision of the existing establishments? The word romp is | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
well chosen. There is a group of the benchers for whom nothing will be | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
enough. It doesn't matter what she says or what David Cameron manages | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
to renegotiate. They want out and nothing less than that will satisfy | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
them. Others will listen. I suspect not particularly to Angela Merkel | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
today. I don't know why the Government have allowed expectations | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
to be aroused in the way they have. It is far too early for her to start | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
making offers when we haven't even had any British demands yet. And | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
that is the point - do we need to have heard from David Cameron more | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
specifically about demands in terms of repatriations of powers before | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
this historic meeting here with Angela Merkel? There won't be any | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
repatriations powers. Simply, it won't happen. What can happen... But | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
Tory MPs are laying their reputations and careers on this! | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
Well, there are those who would not want anything and want out. So you | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
will never pacify them. But reform is possible and we should not be | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
putting all our eggs in the German basket. We should not alienate as we | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
did at the beginning of the year. That was silly. Lots of countries | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
want to see European reform and that is possible. On that, can I ask | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
you, then, some of the things Angela Merkel might be able to accept? And | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
emergency brake for any member state regarding future EU legislation | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
affecting financial services? Is that something she could agree to? | :15:19. | :15:29. | |
Honestly, I don't know anything about the details. This visit has to | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
be seen in the context of a very, very important political gesture and | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
political opening. I don't think it is too much about negotiating any | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
details. That's what I believe. Are they on the same page, David Cameron | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
and Angela Merkel, that opening of negotiations? Do they start from a | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
similar standpoint and have the personal relationship to take it | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
forward? I think the personal relationship is quite good, and you | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
must see that where we come from on Germans, on certain issue, we are | :16:03. | :16:12. | |
philosophically or -- more close to Britain than say the French -- as | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
Germans. We would like in the centre of Europe not just a German and | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
French tandem, but a menage a trois. We need David Cameron there. | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
David Cameron will be betting his future on the fact the relationship | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
will hold, but she's going to see Ed Miliband as well. Yes, but she will | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
do all she can to keep Britain in. No question about that. We mustn't | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
let expectations run away. She can deliver more reform, and I believe | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
that Germany and Britain are on the same track in that, but she can't, | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
and nor would she be willing to letters take powers back to Britain, | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
and that would let it unravel and she won't have it. But that will | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
lead to disappointment on the Tory backbenches. There has been too much | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
massaging of expectation. I think the former ambassador has written | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
Angela Merkel's speech for her, maybe in his own mind. Today will be | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
a loving, Britain, we love you, we think along the same lines, stay | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
with us. There is no negotiation going to happen today. -- love-in. | :17:34. | :17:48. | |
Are people getting fed up with having a section in the media that | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
say it's not only time for reform or having Britain pull-out? The | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
Germans, on the whole, they adopt a lot of British lifestyle elements, | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
and there will be part of us that say we are not Britain, but that is | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
not the political class or the majority of Germans. We would be | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
very reluctant to see Britain EU at that level. Germany is looking for a | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
reformed Europe, but more Europe at the same time, with close | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
integration, and is of the Tory government looking for the opposite? | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
Not really. If you look at the banking union, where you have the | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
majority of the ins and outs, that was a great victory for Britain, and | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
the idea of double majority voted could be extended through Europe to | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
protect interests, if the European nations get closer. I don't think we | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
have to worry about that too much. One thing I would say, it's | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
incredibly important that David Cameron starts the serious process | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
of reform immediately after the European elections and does not get | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
knocked off by how well you can does in terms of appealing to his | :18:59. | :19:08. | |
backbench MPs. What about business, standard life said they might leave | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
Scotland if they voted for independence, is that a wake-up call | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
for Britain in relation to EU membership -- Standard Life. They | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
had 14 different reports from businesses, and not one business | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
came up with one piece of legislation they wanted repatriated | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
from Europe, and everyone that took part in the government review said | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
it was essential we remain in the European Union. That is the view of | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
the vast majority of businesses. But there are businesses that disagree | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
with that and say there should be wiping out of regulations. We never | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
quite know what those are. This wish list of reform, getting rid of a bit | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
of regulation, a few opt outs for Britain, be enough? The most | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
businesses, I think it would be. The principal fear the business is the | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
fact we would walk out of the European Union, but your right, red | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
tape, removal of that, it always goes down well. I have a strong | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
feeling this is all terribly premature. We do have the European | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
elections coming so it has focused people 's minds. We do, but its | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
three-year to work referendum -- three years. I do think the | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
Conservatives will win the election and we're not down to brass tacks. | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
Angela Merkel is in a grand coalition with the social Democrats, | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
so does that change her negotiations in the future? Does it temper what | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
she'd be able to do because of the Social Democrats? I don't think it | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
changes anything. There is a strong continuity in the relationship with | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
Britain, irrespective of the political colour. If I may add one | :20:51. | :21:00. | |
thing, you see the basic difficulty with Britain, as I see it, is that | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
British governments regard the Brussels Forum as something where | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
you riding like St George, want to slay the dragon, come back home and | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
say I had got this and this out of Brussels. Now to turn around and | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
tell the British public you must love the dragon, that is very, very | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
difficult. And there I see a certain difference in the overall political | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
attitude towards Brussels, in Germany and in Britain. Rather late, | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
but better late than never, we can go to Syed Kamall. I don't know if | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
you've been able to hear any of the discussion that has gone before we | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
got a connection to you, but to sum up, Thomas Matussek says it's | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
unlikely there would be wholesale treaty change and repatriation of | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
powers would not happen either. What would you say to that? Is that | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
disappointing to you and your colleagues? Any negotiation is going | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
to be tough, but when you look back at the record David Cameron has in | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
negotiation with other European partners, many said we could not | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
veto a treaty, and we did that. Many people said we could not cut the | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
budget, and we managed to do it. So when people say you can't do this or | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
it cannot happen, let's wait and see what happens when we come to the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
negotiations. You think there could be wholesale treaty change and | :22:26. | :22:27. | |
repatriation of a list of powers, despite what just heard today from | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
Berlin? There are always doomsayers who say you cannot achieve it. That | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
is what some German colleague said when we try to get the budget cut, | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
and we achieved it. I was told Britain would never be able to pull | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
it sells out of the European bailout mechanism, but we managed to do it. | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
-- pull itself out. I was told we would not be able to veto a treaty. | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
Each time people say we cannot do it, we have proved them wrong so I | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
don't see why it should be different. So you are going to be | :23:02. | :23:11. | |
proved wrong. I haven't heard one piece of legislation that would be | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
repatriated back to Britain. Every time I hear about these appalling | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
regulations in Europe, and you ask the question, which one do you want | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
unravelled, which one do you want brought back you hear what it is. So | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
which one is it if you could pick one? The large businesses with | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
lobbyists here and compliance officers don't mind EU legislation | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
because it kills competition from small businesses. But I get small | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
businesses all the time that say we want exceptions because of our size, | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
and we can't afford three or four days to comply with EU regulations | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
because that is one person's time for a small company. But in large | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
companies they have full-time lobbyist. -- lobbyists. But which | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
specific piece of legislation would you want unravelled and repatriated | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
to Britain? There are two ways to look at it. One is specific areas. | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
Which one? We've made a good start in justice and home affairs, and | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
some colleagues want to talk about agriculture and fisheries. Those are | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
issues for negotiation. At the same time, there are constitutional | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
issues. There has to be an ability for national governments to say to | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
the EU, you have gone too far, reconsider. So no actual regulation. | :24:30. | :24:39. | |
So, no specific regulation, but on Justice and home affairs we've opted | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
out about a and we are trying to go back into 30 -- we opted out of | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
about 130. There does have to be a European arrest warrant, so we are | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
now trying to get back into 30 of them. But I haven't heard the piece | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
of legislation or regulation that needs to be unravelled, and that is | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
the normal case. What about the working time directive? We have an | :25:04. | :25:11. | |
opt out, but that didn't quite come up as much as anybody thought it | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
would in terms of torque from businesses. Syed Kamall, if there | :25:17. | :25:26. | |
was a vote on British membership of the EU tomorrow, which way would you | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
vote? There isn't going to be about tomorrow. I realise that. But if we | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
found ourselves without anything changing in a few years time, which | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
way would you vote? I was having a conversation with David Cameron | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
about this the other day and he said not to answer hypothetical | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
questions. So you can't come clean on what you would do? Let's wait for | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
2017 and the referendum. We have to wait for the renegotiation, we can | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
put that. We can but that the British people, and then I would | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
decide how I would vote. We will ask you then. Don't take any advice from | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
David Cameron, that's my advice. Thank you all very much. | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
Now, did you know that child poverty, as it's officially | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
measured, actually went down in the wake of the financial crisis of | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
2008? But that's not because poor children got richer, but because | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
richer people got poorer. That's one of the perverse outcomes which the | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
Work and Pensions Secretary wanted to eliminate by changing the way the | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
government measures child poverty. But it's a change that's been left | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
out of today's child poverty strategy amid reports of a row | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
between the Work and Pensions Secretary and the Chancellor. Iain | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
Duncan Smith and and George Osborne both agree that the current | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
definition on child poverty needs to be changed. Currently, a child is | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
defined as living in poverty when their family income falls below 60% | :26:50. | :26:51. | |
of median income. Iain Duncan Smith is said to want to | :26:52. | :27:03. | |
see broader measures of poverty included in the definition such as | :27:04. | :27:05. | |
entrenched worklessness, family breakdown, problem debt, drug and | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
alcohol dependency. But Mr Osborne is reported to have | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
blocked this new definition being included in today's strategy paper. | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
And Lib Dem Education Minister David Laws has weighed in behind Mr Duncan | :27:19. | :27:28. | |
Smith, supporting the change. What is disappointing is that the | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
Coalition Government has not been able to agree a new set of measures | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
to target child poverty and reduce child poverty in the future. Those | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
measures are important, because ultimately they are the driver of | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
policy and the future -- in the future. We've done a lot of work on | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
that in government and the Liberal Democrats have a clear idea of what | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
the new measures should be. We will not allow the Conservative Party to | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
simply end discussion on this. Joining us to discuss this is Policy | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
Exchange's Ruth Porter and Alison Garnham from the charity Child | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
Poverty Action Group. Ruth Porter, are you disappointed the government | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
has not changed the definition of child poverty? What is clear is that | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
the current poverty measure is fundamentally flawed, but where the | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
government is right today is to come out and say that what we need is a | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
strategy which actually focuses on looking at the reasons why people | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
living in poverty and aims to address those. If you take, for | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
example, needs analysis we have done -- the analysis we have done which | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
has 2 million children in Britain as materially deprived, on a different | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
definition, the ones that don't show up in current statistics because | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
they are based around income. Similarly we saw Iain Duncan Smith | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
and George Osborne talking about the fact that there are 100,000 fewer | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
children in workless households, and these are both statistics which | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
don't show up in the current measure. Clearly the way we are | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
looking at poverty, the way we are measuring it with one statistic, is | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
far too simplistic, and the key is to move to a strategy that deals | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
with the underlying reason why people are in poverty. Do you agree | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
with that, Alison? There are four measures, not just one indicator. | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
They are not definitions, they are measures. The 60% median is a | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
relative measure, there is one that looks a deprivation and there is | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
another but looks persistence of poverty, how long the family has | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
been poor for. There is also in the act of whole list of building blocks | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
including childcare, parental support, education, housing, all the | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
things discussed quite rightly in the child poverty strategy but it's | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
not just about those indicators. So these are needed, is the argument, | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
to keep track of people who are living in, by whatever measure, | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
poverty? Although there are supposedly four measures, we fixate | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
on relative income. All four of those measures look at income, and | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
the reality is for some people, people can be just above the income | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
line but if they have someone in their household who has a severe | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
addiction issue, or issues with debt, they won't be picked up. They | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
are a tiny proportion of families. The real issue is we are facing a | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
child poverty crisis. We know that child poverty will rise by nearly 1 | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
million x 2020, so having a discussion about what goalpost we | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
want to move in an environment where there is a crisis on the horizon, | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
that is what we need the strategy to address, what policies would make a | :30:33. | :30:40. | |
difference? But the focus on income means that if we look at our | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
approach to tackling poverty, it is focused on, how do you, through the | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
benefits system, redistribute money, rather than looking at the | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
underlying reasons why people are poor, and that is why the Government | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
is absolutely right to be doing things like looking at addressing | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
educational attainment of the poor, getting more people into work and | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
helping people in work to move up the pay scale. We have seen over the | :31:02. | :31:08. | |
last ten to 15 years policy on all of those areas so there were clearly | :31:09. | :31:18. | |
the childcare strategies, we saw the lone parent rate increase from 45 to | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
50%, we have the narrowing of the gap in educational attainment. All | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
sorts of policies have been developed that address a whole range | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
of issues. Except that there are these big hats and many people who | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
don't make those statistics and they are being missed. -- big gap is. How | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
do you address this? They are not being left out. There is a very | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
strong association between relative low income and all kinds of poor | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
outcomes for children. Low educational attainment, poor health, | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
low self-worth and so on. The real problem at the moment is that poorer | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
families are facing ?22 billion of tax cuts and benefits cuts. 60% of | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
those are hitting working and low income families. So now they cannot | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
make those ends meet and it shows in the statistics. 60% of poor children | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
live with a working parent, as these are telling us. Just to welcome | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
viewers from Scotland. What you say to the fact that the Treasury has | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
blocked these definitions because they do not want to look at what | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
they can see as -- what they might see as expensive targets and cannot | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
see a way of getting around them? The Government has said today they | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
want to focus on the reasons people live in poverty. And that is the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
right approach. The exciting on target to do with income simply | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
drives policy in the wrong direction. Do we need to have those | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
targets in place in order to measure child poverty? Well, we must say | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
what we mean by poverty when we talk of poverty and the big question is, | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
is it a relative measure or an absolute measure? Are people | :33:06. | :33:07. | |
relatively poor because they are living in quite a rich country and | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
though their income isn't bad, it is a lot worse than other people's? | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
Poverty lobby was always in favour of relative poverty rather than | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
absolute, and just because a slight dip now in our fortunes has kind of | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
reversed and moved the goalposts in a way that is unhelpful to the | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
poverty lobby, I don't think we should abandon that important | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
principle that poverty is a relative concept. I'm certainly not | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
complaining about what the indicators are showing. And in fact | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
it is very easy to read what is going on and you can tell what is | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
happening to average incomes. You have odd findings every now and then | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
but poverty is always relative to the society you live in. People need | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
cash to pay their bills, keep their house warm, to buy food. But those | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
definitions can be misleading because some of those are absolute? | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
The reality is, there is no single measure which is perfect, so what we | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
need is to introduce more measures looking at other things as well, | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
things like addiction, things like the cost of housing and the impact | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
of that. Rather than just focusing on one headline figure. A loss of | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
those things are already in the child poverty measure but we used to | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
have some other things included. I'm not against adding measures to the | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
existing measures and I think it would be quite important to look at | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
other issues. Thank you. We've all heard of fly-tipping but | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
what about horse fly-grazing? It's where people leave their horses on | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
farmland without payment or permission, and it seems to be a | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
growing problem. MPs have recently debated the issue and one who's had | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
lots of problems in his constituency thinks more desperately needs to be | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
done. Here's Damian Hinds, with his soapbox. | :34:55. | :35:10. | |
The sight of horses grazing on the field is a beautiful countryside | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
sight. As long as they are there legally. Unfortunately, that is not | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
always the case. Horses abandoned in a farmer's field or left by the side | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
of the road, that could be a nuisance for farmers and endanger | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
the safety of people in the area, and of course can have terrible | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
consequences for the welfare of the animals themselves. These horses at | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
Newton balance in East Hampshire really well looked after and cared | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
for. But equine charities estimate there could be 7000 horses in | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
England and Wales at risk of welfare problems. With upwards of 3000 on | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
land without consent. And that number is growing. In the first | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
quarter of 2013, the British horse Society saw complaints about horse | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
welfare rise by 50% on the previous year. A few unscrupulous owners | :36:02. | :36:11. | |
leave their animals on private land without payment or permission. | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
Sometimes the conditions can be terrible, without adequate grass to | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
graze on. They might be there for days or weeks until the verities are | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
notified and then they just move them onto another piece of land. Not | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
only is it an act of theft using the farmer's grazing land without | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
permission terrible burden on the charities concerned with horse | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
welfare who try to help. One piece of land in my constituency recently | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
had 46 horses left on it, though in that case with payment and | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
permission. But the horses were not being properly looked after authored | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
by their owner. The RSPCA had to remove them. Shortly after this, | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
another 18 horses appeared. Many of them were in a terrible state and | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
one died soon after in a century. -- sanctuary. Local authorities need | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
more powers to remove horses before they just get moved to another | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
location and the cycle starts over again. I welcome DEFRA's efforts to | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
negotiate a limit to the free movement of horses from the | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
continent to this country but there is still a problem with horses | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
originating in England and Wales. In Wales, and you control of horses act | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
has come into force. I am concerned that without similar initiatives | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
here in England, the problem could be further displaced across the | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
border. -- a new control. And the Conservative MP Damian Hinds | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
joins us now. Obviously a problem in your constituency. Is it a big | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
problem across the UK? It is, and you all the numbers on the film. And | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
it is a movable problem and it does move. Since we had a big hug and my | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
constituency it has gone down somewhat in Hampshire but then has | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
moved elsewhere. -- a bid problem. Why do you think people are | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
struggling to look after their horses, because presumably that is | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
why they are being dumped or abandoned? I am not sure we can make | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
those assumptions so quickly. I'm sure there is an element of that but | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
it also seems there is a small number of people who own very large | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
numbers of horses, who, as part of their practice, will keep moving | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
them from piece of land to piece of land. Can you impound horses? No. | :38:21. | :38:29. | |
The local authority will typically have one option, which is once they | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
have been through a process and had a statutory delay, they have to | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
auction the waters off after micro-chipping them, which increases | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
their value. Sometimes they then get what back by the original owner! -- | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
fought back. In Wales impounding is an option and there are certain acts | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
where impounding can be a possibility, including in Hampshire. | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
If the horse becomes ill or dies, whose responsibility would that be? | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
I think the full misery clear. The people who either irresponsibly | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
breed horses or leave them without due care for their welfare, it is | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
definitely their fault. The responsibility depends on whatever | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
horse charity has taken them in and the way they deal with it. So they | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
could blame the farmer on whose land it has been left? Yes, and I think | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
this whole issue is a big burden because once you have animals on | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
your land, the idea that you have responsibility for them. It is | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
already. It is not allowed to fly graze horses. We have had the Welsh | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
act in for a month and we need to see what impact that powers and | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
whether it displaces the problem across the board, and also how | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
effective it is in Wales. But this is something I am sure the team will | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
keep under review. What about microchip in horses? It is very | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
important and we need more enforcement as well. It is important | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
to get a good deal. You can get free microchips in circumstance can -- | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
certain circumstances. My llamas escaped a few months ago and went | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
fly grazing in a neighbour's... He came home and they were very | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
understanding! I am delighted to hear it! | :40:29. | :40:30. | |
On one level, the Greens are doing pretty well. They've got an MP, two | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
MEPs, they control a council and have a meaningful presence in | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
English local government generally. But where do they go next? Is it | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
possible for an organisation which is still viewed by a sizeable chunk | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
of the electorate, rightly or wrongly, as a single-issue party to | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
get any bigger, and if so, how do they make the breakthrough? Or is | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
this as good as it gets for the Greens? | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
St Mary's ward in Oxford. They do things a little differently here. It | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
has been home to generations of thinkers and that desire to | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
challenge the conventional wisdom extends to their politics. People in | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
this part of Oxford tend to believe in green. Along with the | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
affectionately named news of Brighton, it is a party stronghold, | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
and some people think it could become an electoral ghetto from | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
which the party find it hard to escape. Looking at the European | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
election, it is the Greens who will struggle to get airtime because you | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
have UKIP and the whole in- out referendum question. And actually, | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
they have not been out there on national issues such as flooding and | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
climate change that have been really good opportunities recently. At the | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
moment in England and Wales, the Greens have one MP, two MEPs, two | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
members of the Greater London assembly and more than 40 local | :41:54. | :42:03. | |
councillors. And the than doubled since 1998, almost 13,000 now, and | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
the party that runs Brighton council has significant presence in a number | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
of places including Oxford. All good but is it something of a comfort | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
blanket? Is not according to the man who helped write the last election | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
manifesto for them. It might be the other political parties who are | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
wearing the comfort blanket rather than the Greens, and they need to | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
persuade the mainstream parties that the issues they have been | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
campaigning on for a long time of the key ones to which they should be | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
paying attention. But previous attempts to access the mainstream | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
are precisely what led this candidate to quit the party in | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
frustration. I suspect if you look to their individual policies, many | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
of those would actually get majority support but as a whole, the party | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
has found it for a difficult to connect with the mainstream | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
electorate and unless that changes, the Green Party is stuck with 3% of | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
the vote. By the way, this is not a pretty lake we are standing next to. | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
It is a flood plain, which he sings rather makes his point. We have seen | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
the worst floods ever over the last few weeks in British history. | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
Climate change is the defining issue of the 21st century. Only the Greens | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
really seem to take it very seriously, but unless they bring on | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
a lot of other policies to attract mainstream voters, the Green Party | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
will not be able to solve the climate change problem. Oxford is | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
part of the fabric of this green and pleasant land, but will dreaming of | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
the dreaming spires be the limit for the Green Party? We are joined now | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
by the leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett. Where were you | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
during the floods? There seem to be a few people in that film is saying | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
that was your big opportunity and you didn't capitalise it? We | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
definitely had a ten point plan on how to react to the floods and we | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
are the lighted Ed Miliband picked up the call we made for Owen | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
Paterson to go as Environment Secretary, so there we can see our | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
call making a real impact and making on the national stage. But we didn't | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
see you. Was it an opportunity, a missed opportunity, to get higher | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
profile rather than let the other parties take on your plan? Well, I | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
went down to the Thames barrier instead and stood in front of a | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
successful anti-Flood project which showed how we can work together to | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
deal with the threat of climate change. So, I did not choose the | :44:23. | :44:31. | |
Wellington boot route. There is another party trying to make an | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
impact and be more successful than you, UKIP, and bus stops and | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
Brighton and no sign of a breakthrough in the polls. -- asked | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
ups. Have you reached your limit? Not at all. We got our first County | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
Council is in Essex, Cornwall, Sussex and Kent and several places | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
in the West Midlands, so we are a much more national party than we | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
were before and we have doubled our membership and it is going up | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
steadily and significantly, so we are definitely on an upward curve, | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
and, with European elections, which are representational... We only need | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
a swing of 1.6% which would travel our number of MEPs in Brussels. We | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
have great campaigns in the south-west, the north-west, the east | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
of the region and the Humber. Great candidates out there on the ground | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
making a real impact on issues like winning the railways back into | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
public hands. And also Caroline Lucas in Parliament. And the bill to | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
bring railways back into public hands is up for debate tomorrow. Do | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
you see them making headway in the general elections? I don't think | :45:39. | :45:46. | |
it's very likely. The problem with a first past the post system, and I | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
shouldn't say single issue parties, climate change is the big issue, but | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
the problem is what does it leave you to say on everything else that | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
is coherent? I believe in ideology. I think a mainstream political party | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
needs to have a view on what are the main springs of human behaviour and | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
how government can control and organise society to the best | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
advantage. For the Greens, climate change and ecological issues are the | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
hook, the portal brings you in, but there has to be something in the | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
room once people have been brought in and it's not clear to me in terms | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
of what life ought to be like, what the role of government is, the Green | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
party has anything to say. I would invite you to read the 2010 | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
manifesto, and that made the point that social and environmental | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
justice are indivisible. We talk about the need for everybody in | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
Britain to have access to a decent quality-of-life. I was at an | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
anti-ATOS process, and we were speaking out against the welfare | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
cuts, the bedroom tax, and speaking out to ensure that everyone in | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
society has sufficient resources for a decent life? Are you on the left? | :47:00. | :47:07. | |
To the left of the Labour Party. But in Brighton, where the Greens are | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
running the show there has been infighting, and they have fell out | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
about budget cuts, and even Caroline Lucas has opposed their policies. | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
It's hardly setting a good example of what Greens would be like in some | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
sort of government. I think you haven't quite thought -- caught up | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
with things. Brighton has been calling for a referendum for 4.75% | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
increase in council tax, about 60p per person per week, to meet social | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
care needs, to ensure older people get the care they need. But they | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
have been fighting amongst themselves. What we have is a real | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
vision of how we can accept that the cuts have gone too far, austerity is | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
a disaster for the poor people of Britain, the most disadvantaged. We | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
are currently playing for the errors of the bankers by taking it out of | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
the pockets of the poor, and it has to stop. But that is obviously not | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
cutting through. Matthew MUST -- Matthew's point is they are running | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
the administration in Brighton and they have fought over striking | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
binmen and there has been no coherence. We have a coherent | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
message about issues within fighting for. We start of the decade leading | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
on the living wage and making the minimum wage a living wage. If you | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
are in full time you should earn enough money to live on. That's a | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
simple message and one where we are starting to win. We saw the Tory MP | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
making that point in the Guardian this week. Do you think they will | :48:38. | :48:48. | |
win another seat? I don't think so. I don't think there should be any | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
competition between you and UKIP because you are in different | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
places, but there are a range of voters who want to vote for somebody | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
who is not the mainstream, and I think you will lose some to UKIP, | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
oddly enough. I think there is a small percentage of people who will | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
hover between, but a lot of people think that the three main parties do | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
not meet their needs and don't recognise that society has to change | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
significantly and politics has to. The three largest parties are stuck | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
in the 20th century and have not moved on to recognise we need a new | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
economic and political model. Natalie Bennett, thank you. Well, as | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
we've been on air German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been addressing | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
both Houses of Parliament. Here's what she had to say a few moments | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
ago. I have been told many times during the last few days that there | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
are very special expectations of my speech here today. Supposedly, or so | :49:41. | :49:49. | |
I have heard, some expect my speech to pave the way for a fundamental | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
reform of the European architecture which will satisfy all kinds of | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
alleged or actual British wishes. I'm afraid they are in for a | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
disappointment. I have also heard that others are expecting the exact | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
opposite, and are hoping that I will deliver the clear and simple message | :50:15. | :50:16. | |
here in London that the rest of Europe is not prepared to pay almost | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
any price to keep Britain in the European Union. I'm afraid that | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
these hopes will be dashed as well. Angela Merkel, speaking in English, | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
and the expectation was she would speak in German, and I've never | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
heard her speak in English before, but she did set out that she said | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
she was not there to deliver fundamental reform so there will be | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
disappointment on the backbenches of the Tories. Some will be delighted. | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
They would have been sad if she was ready to deal. It's such an early | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
stage that I would not expect the German Chancellor to come to Britain | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
and say, like you, I want fundamental reform of the European | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
Union and the architecture and structure and the machinery of the | :51:04. | :51:05. | |
European Union. This is not the time to say that. But, could she have | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
nuanced it a little more? Will David Cameron be disappointed by what she | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
said in rather clear terms? I wouldn't think he would be very | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
surprised. It is an opening bid, as we were, and now we wait to hear | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
David Cameron's opening bid. They will now go and have those | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
discussions and it will be interesting to see the reaction. She | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
also said that others who were hoping she would deliver the clear | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
and simple message in London that Europe is not prepared to pay any | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
price to keep Britain in the European Union, I suppose, once | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
again, one is not going to be surprised, but she is laying the | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
marker down. Yes, taking this stuff -- top stand at the beginning. I've | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
just been told that's the only bit of the speech that were -- was to be | :51:50. | :51:56. | |
said in English. This year marks the 30th anniversary of the launch of | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
Spitting Image. The show spanned the early years of Margaret Thatcher's | :52:01. | :52:02. | |
government to the end of John Major's. And up to 15 million people | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
tuned in on Sunday evenings to watch politicians being lampooned. Who can | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
forget besuited Margaret Thatcher and grey John Major? Next month, the | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
BBC Four programme, Arena, will tell the story of Spitting Image. Say it | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
to the whole cabinet. Shut up, Norman. Speak up, man, for god sake, | :52:22. | :52:29. | |
you're not the platform now. Nigel pinched my pen. Nigel, is this true? | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
You know my policy on stealing from 1's friends. Cabinet, what do we | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
call it when people go around stealing other people's property? | :52:38. | :52:46. | |
You? A free-market economy? What do we call it, David? Socialism. The | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
leader we should have one word from your name, and one word from mine. | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
From yours, I thought we would take the word David. And from yours, | :52:58. | :53:09. | |
David? What about Owen? So it's David Owen, head of the social | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
Democratic party. Well, that's put my mind at rest. Thank you very | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
much, David. David, have you just burst the hot water bottle? No... | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
Joining me now are the creators of Spitting Image, Peter Fluck and | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
Roger Law and as we've just seen, one of the people they mercilessly | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
satirised, Lord Steel. Laughing, as you were. Did you hate your | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
caricature? Not at all. What was interesting about the whole | :53:39. | :53:40. | |
programme is that the politicians that weren't on it complained | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
bitterly. Why they would have rather been on it than miss out. -- they | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
would have been -- rather been on it. Did you watch it religiously? | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
Regularly. I thoroughly enjoyed it. What effect did it have on your | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
career? I don't think any. Some people thought it made me look a lot | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
weaker partner, but I don't believe it. I don't think people took the | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
politics of spitting image seriously, they just enjoy the | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
entertainment of it and it was a good send-up of a lot of people. Is | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
that true asthma well, he's bigger than I thought he should be. Why did | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
you think you should be so tiny? Because it was funny. Why did you | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
think he should be so small in stature? You are quite tall, aren't | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
you. I recall how it happened. It was an accident. When we first | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
started making puppets, we naively thought that the smaller they are, | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
the cheaper they are. Since we had to make a complete cast of puppets | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
we started with small ones, and we realised you could not get the | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
clothes from Oxfam from -- for a little puppet, so the cost shot up | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
because everything had to be tailor-made. What people don't know | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
if you have more than one puppet. I know that there are at least two | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
images today, one in the House of Commons, one of mine, and one of | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
Margaret Thatcher, and there is one in the daily record office in | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
Glasgow. Those rascals we employed were sending them out the back door. | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
I'm sure of it. Did David steel deserve that betrayal? Well, we had | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
1000 puppets, and you could put on David steel with David Owen more | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
than once. It was when you did Elizabeth Taylor, and the only joke | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
they had was that she was fat. They did the fat joke, and we spent three | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
days crafting this fantastic puppet for one sketch. You want to see | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
repeat business. Marvellous. Why do you think the programme was so | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
successful? Because it was as abrasive and unpleasant and rude as | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. We were there at the right time. Do you | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
think it caught the time? I would think it was very much of its time. | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
Several people could have done the show. You go back to the 70s, writes | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
in the street, the 70s was awful, the most awful decade of my life -- | :56:19. | :56:26. | |
riots in the street. I would have killed several people to be made a | :56:27. | :56:34. | |
puppet. Were you never on it? Brian Walden, he had a puppet, and every | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
night I would pray there would be a Matthew Parris puppet. That is how I | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
would know I was famous. Jeffrey Archer sent in some reference | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
pictures. What did you do with them? We said we would never do him, | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
but then he got caught with a prostitute of the railway station | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
and we had to. Would you do something like that today? I | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
wouldn't want to make another 1500 puppets, but I think it could be | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
done. Nigel Farage is one already. David Cameron isn't because he has a | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
tiny mouth like a cat 's bottom, and to make a puppet out of that would | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
be difficult. It's amazing what you did with puppetry. It's what the | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
puppeteers did. Even so, you brought the thing to such a wide audience. | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
They had to go through weight training, they weighed a tonne. | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
Today's politics could do with that. People think I'm a nice, benign | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
gentlemen these days, and I think Spiting Image was just warm and | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
lovely -- Spitting. His answer to bringing it back would always be | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
that it is ?25 per bag of play, so you do it. Apart from Nigel Farage, | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
who else would you like to make? What's the name of the presenter | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
with the huge ears always on television? Andrew Marr. You could | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
do him, because he is pompous and has ears like that. What about | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
Andrew Neil? Gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you to two David | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
steel. There's just time before we go to | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which box set did David | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
Cameron give Angela Merkel during her last visit to the UK? Was it: a) | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
Benidorm? B) Midsomer Murders? C) The Inbetweeners? Or d) Auf | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
Wiedersehen Pet? I think it was Midsummer murders, . That is the | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
right answer. Thank you to Matthew Parris for stepping into the fray. | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
The one o'clock News is starting on BBC One. Andrew is back on BBC One | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
tonight. Goodbye. | :58:55. | :58:56. |