Browse content similar to 16/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
Questions over the Conservatives general election campaign spending | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
have snowballed this morning, as the party is fined a record | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
Meanwhile, 12 police forces investigating local Tory campaigns | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Chancellor Phillip Hammond is forced to drop a tax rise | :00:59. | :01:13. | |
, so where could the Government be forced to back down next? | :01:14. | :01:26. | |
With reports of student unions banning certain newspapers, | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
words like "man-kind" and even "sombreros", is free speech | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
really under threat at British universities? | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
And style, understatement, refinement - all things | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
you won't find in this limousine made for Donald Trump and about to | :01:43. | :01:51. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:52. | :02:04. | |
of the programme today, someone I can assure you didn't | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
arrive here by limousine - not least because he'd quickly write | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
an article about the BBC wasting money - it's | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
Let's begin today with the news that the Conservatives have been | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
fined a record ?70,000 by the electoral commission. | :02:17. | :02:18. | |
This is one of a series of investigations into how the party | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
spent money at the 2015 general election and a number | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
It follows a long-running investigation into claims the Tories | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
may have broken electoral law by Channel 4 News, which in turn led | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Well, don't worry, because JoCo is here with the details. | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
Political parties have to keep a record of all their spending | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
during election campaigns to make sure they comply with | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
The Electoral Commission, the independent watchdog | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
which oversees election expenses has fined the Conservatives a record | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
?70,000 for breaking election expense rules. | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
The Commission says there were "numerous failures" | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
in reporting the spending on three by-elections in 2014 | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
These included missing payments of at least ?104,000 and ?118,000 | :02:56. | :03:08. | |
that was either not reported or incorrectly reported. | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
A portion of that amount was recorded as national party | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
spending when it should have been written down as local | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
candidate spending, which has much smaller limits. | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
What's more Conservatries did not include the required invoices | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
or receipts for 81 payments to the value of nearly ?53,000. | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
The Conservatives have accepted the fine and said they made | :03:33. | :03:34. | |
Separately, a dozen police forces have sent files | :03:35. | :03:43. | |
to the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether charges | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
should be brought over how the Conservatives spent money | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
The Tories aren't the only party to feel the force | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
of the Electoral Commission, last year both Labour and the Lib | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
Dems were fined ?20,000 each for undeclared election expenses. | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
I spoke to Claire Bassett the chief executive | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
of the Electoral Commission earlier and I begain by asking | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
of the Electoral Commission earlier and I began by asking | :04:09. | :04:10. | |
her what she thought of the Conservatives claim | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
that they made an administrative error. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
What we have found is a number of failings right across three | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
by-elections in 2014 and the UK Parliamentary general election | :04:19. | :04:20. | |
in 2015 that covered a number of aspects of the work. | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
We think these are unprecedented, the level we have seen, | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
and for that reason, we have imposed a ?70,000 fine | :04:27. | :04:28. | |
which is the highest we have ever imposed. | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
Would you have imposed more if you had had the scope to do so? | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
That ?70,000 actually represents five different separate fines | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
which have been added up, and certainly, at least one of those | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
we would have liked to have been higher than the maximum ?20,000 | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
We think that level is just too low and that, in fact, | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
this could be seen as a cost of doing business for some parties, | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
particularly if you are spending millions of pounds at a general | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
We would like to see Parliament increase that, | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
certainly, so it is in line with other regulators. | :05:09. | :05:09. | |
Just to ask again about the administrative error | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
line, or justification, from the Conservatives - | :05:12. | :05:13. | |
do you think that is justified in terms of this explanation? | :05:14. | :05:15. | |
Well, what we have found, we examined the national party | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
spending return for the by-elections and for the general election | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
and what we found was numerous instances where campaign spending | :05:21. | :05:22. | |
was either inaccurately reported, missing, or not apportioned | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
properly and what that says is that there was a system failure | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
in how they were recording that spending and how those | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
So it is a significant failure and what it meant | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
is that we were actually unable to establish accurate | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
levels of what was spent in some areas, for example. | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
The whole controversy has centred around what actually | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
counts as local spending, local campaign spending | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
for a specific candidate in a specific constituency, | :05:55. | :05:56. | |
and national spending from the central office of a party | :05:57. | :05:58. | |
As far as you are concerned, what is the main difference? | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
What we have looked at is only the national spending, | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Candidate spending returns are under a different regime | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
and that is what the police and the CPS are looking at. | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
But in terms of what we looked at, money spent on campaigning - | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
was it spent on the big national campaigns that were about getting | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
that party elected or were they about supporting an individual | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
candidate in a specific constituency to get elected? | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
I think that is the best way of summarising the difference. | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
How co-operative were the Conservatives? | :06:33. | :06:34. | |
Well, there have been some delays in completing the investigation | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
and those are largely down to difficulties we have had | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
obtaining information to carry out this investigation | :06:41. | :06:42. | |
and unfortunately, at one point, we did have to seek | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
Labour and the Liberal Democrats were also fined ?20,000 each. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
The Conservatives have been fined significantly more. | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
Does that mean that the Conservatives were a lot worse? | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
It means the scale and nature was more serious. | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
The Conservatives' was also across the three by-elections | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
which wasn't the case in the other two. | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
But that fine also reflects the difficulty we had | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
in completing the investigation, the challenges brought | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
In the other two instances, both the parties very quickly | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
put their hands up and co-operated fully with the investigations, | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
which unfortunately was not the case here. | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
And we did ask to speak to the Conservatives and Labour | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
on this issue this morning, but neither want to | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
Maybe they are busy doing something else. | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
But let's talk now to our assistant political editor, Norman Smith. | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
He's outside the Conservative Party's HQ, | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
central office as it used to be known, in Westminster. | :07:45. | :07:45. | |
Norman, so a record fine from the Commission and now all eyes on the | :07:46. | :07:54. | |
Crown Prosecution Service. Because that will establish as to whether | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
this breach of the election rules was deliberate. It was a tactic by | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
the Conservative Party, in effect to give them an advantage in key | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
marginal seats by enabling their candidates to spend more. Now, the | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
electoral Commission are saying this is not something they investigate, | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
this is beyond their jurisdiction. They simply do not know what the | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
intent was, whether it was honest administrative error, as | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
Conservative officials here insist, or whether there was a deliberate | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
intent to give Tory candidates a key advantage in those critical wards. | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
But, I mean there is no getting away, I think, from the severity and | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
almost anger, you sense from the Electoral Commission at the way the | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
Conservative Party responded to this investigation, the fact they had to | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
get a court order to obtain the key documents. And there is also one | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
telling paragraph towards the end of the report where they say they fear | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
there was "a realistic prospect that Conservative candidates did indeed | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
have an advantage." Now that is clearly, I suppose the smoking gun. | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
Whether this at the end of the day was simply poor book keeping or | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
something else was going on. Norman that's Tory headquarters behind you | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
there in our shot. How worried are they in that building? ? Well, I | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
think they have to be worried. I mean these are very, very serious | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
suggestions and they are just allegations, let's be honest. I mean | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
their response so far, it seems to me, to be rather desperately | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
suggesting that really this as big news as we seem to think it is, this | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
was down to some administrative mistakes. They suggest the amount of | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
money involved is comparatively small compared to their overall | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
election spend. 0.6%. They say they have never been fined for this sort | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
of thing before. They are also crit of the electoral -- critical of the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
Electoral Commission, taking a swipe at them, suggesting they need to | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
review the way they go about their work. But clearly we need to wait | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
until the police conclude their inquiries to get more details as to | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
whether this was deliberate and whether there was intent behind the | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
abuse of rules. Busy say. Rod Liddell how serious is it for the | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Tories? Very serious. The laughable thing is Labour hasn't making as | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
much hay as it as they should be. You could, at the least, if the | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
smoking gun is found, as Norman say, demand a rerun of the by elections, | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
even though the general election superceded, in the Will the defence | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
of dome crasscy. The reality is the spend per constituent... It is quite | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
small It is quite small, it could have a significant difference. | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
Labour may not be making as much of it as you think they should because | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
they got fined. It was ?20,000. The Tories have ?7 o 0,000 and it is a | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
record -- ?70,000 Yes but we have been looking into the Tory with more | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
alack right and vigorous. And of course, Ukip. I think they got down | :11:14. | :11:22. | |
and Labour. Ukip are being investigated but we haven't heard | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
from the Electoral Commission from them. But Labour and the be Lib Dems | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
are caught up in an investigation too. The reason they are keeping | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
quite quiet. The obvious thing to ask for is a rerun of the | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
by-elections, in terms of democracy, what is the last thing that Jeremy | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
Corbyn wants now? Probably and more late Thursday nights for us More | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
late Thursday nights for you. Those are the words | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
of Chancellor Philip Hammond in this morning's Sun, | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
as he explains the Government's decision to perform a U-turn | :11:52. | :11:53. | |
on its planned rise in National Insurance only a week | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
after he announced it at the Budget. The toxic mixture of being seen | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
to break a manifesto commitment, opposition from Tory MPs, | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
the newspapers, and crucially, to the plan and Mr Hammond had to go | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
the despatch box yesterday to eat a fairly big | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
serving of humble pie. It is very important, | :12:09. | :12:20. | |
both to me and to my right honourable friend, | :12:21. | :12:22. | |
the Prime Minister, that we comply not just with the letter but also | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
the spirit of the commitments Therefore, as I set out in my letter | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
this morning to the chairman of the select committee, | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
my right honourable friend, the member for Chichester, | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
I have decided not to proceed with the class four NICs measures | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
set out in the Budget. There will be no increases | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
in National Insurance contribution The genuinely self-employed | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
carry real financial risk I know that a Conservative | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
government really wants a tax system that will support risk takers | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
and growth creators. Will the Chancellor commit to work | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
with colleagues over the coming months who believe it is time | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
to take a holistic and simplifying view of personal taxation | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
for the self-employed which will support | :13:11. | :13:11. | |
wholeheartedly those who build Might the Chancellor consider | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
to make up the loss in revenue to bear down on those employers | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
who force their employees into self-employment | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
against their wish, destabilise their lives | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
and thereby get out of paying National Insurance contributions, | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
as all good employers do pay? As a slavish supporter | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
of the Government, I am in some difficulty because my article | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
robustly supporting the Chancellor's early policy | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
in the Forest Journal is already Having been persuaded | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
of the correctness of the course he is now following, | :13:47. | :13:58. | |
I merely needed an opportunity Joining us now is the former | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
Minister for Government A Welcome back to the programme. Now | :14:01. | :14:17. | |
you were involved in drawing up the Tory manifesto for 2015. It stated | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
four times there would be no rise in national insurance contributions. | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
Did you forget to send a copy to Philip Hammond? I'm not responsible | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
for sending copies of manifesto for anybody. I suspect what was | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
happening was the Treasury was focussing on the legislation that | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
then happened and that legislation specifically tied down income tax | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
and the ordinary national insurance you and I play as employees but | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
didn't tie down the self-employed such. I suspect they focussed on | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
that. You know civil servants keep an eye on the manifesto as W they | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
read through it and gut it before parties come into power and yet we | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
learn that Mr Hammond wasn't even sure that this was a Conservative | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
manifesto pledge until he heard the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg say it in | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
this very studio. That's remarkable. It is not as remarkable as it would | :15:05. | :15:15. | |
be if it had not been translated into law... One particular type of | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
National Insurance was put into law, the manifesto did not discriminate. | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
You are right it did not but the lauded. When the law was going | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
through, the Labour Party said we were doing it to fulfil the | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
manifesto commitment. It was what it was mainly aimed at. The manifesto | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
was not consistent ultimately with what Philip Hammond did. As a matter | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
of history, we will all recall, what was going on was there was a big | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
hoo-ha about raising income tax and the suggestion that the ordinary | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
National Insurance would be raised. Nobody thought it actually referred | :15:57. | :16:07. | |
to the class two, three, four NICS. We were meant to work that out? A | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
senior adviser to Mr Cameron said it was an idea you thought up on the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
hoof at the last minute, and emptied it in the election grid and you | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
said, make a promise not to raise income tax, National Insurance, VAT. | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
Long history, a question of whether Ed Miliband would raise taxes, the | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
suggestion he would raise National Insurance instead. Would the Tories | :16:30. | :16:43. | |
raise it as well? In retrospect, it would have been better if it had | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
been more carefully phrased so in that, rather than just... So that it | :16:47. | :16:47. | |
could have exempted what Philip Hammond is trying to do. Fact is | :16:48. | :16:49. | |
fact. As we are now, it is right that we come back to this issue in | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
the next Parliament after a review. Fiasco, shambles? No, no. Three | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
weeks from now, you will not remember what it was about. I can | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
assure you I will! Be in no bad about that! You will be on to the | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
next big thing. There are some big things and this is quite a small | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
thing. The big-ticket item is the question of whether the Budget needs | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
to be fiscally neutral. Philip decided rightly it should be. It | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
will now have to be done in a different way. We might forget it or | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
put it to the back of our minds if you do a U-turn on something else, | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
now you have shown you are an easy target for backbench treasure. What | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
is the next? New schools funding, grammar schools? Probate charges | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
which are going to shoot through the roof? I am charmed you think I am | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
the representative of Her Majesty's government. I was dismissed a year | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
ago. You going to defend them even though you will probably come back | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
and say they were right to change in four weeks? I am happy to defend | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
rational policy-making. I think the change Philip Hammond made was | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
rational even though it contradicted the manifesto. I know it is | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
extremely difficult to judge all of these things. There will be changes | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
of course. The big issue is whether in general the Government is taking | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
us in the right direction and it is. It has poisoned the well between ten | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
and 11. Mr Hammond's acolytes off the record briefed that the people | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
around the Prime Minister are economically illiterate. The | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
consequence is these people who have never been known not to bear a | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
grudge, they go for Mr Hammond and force him into having to back down. | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
It is not yet at the Tony Blair- George Brown shade of things but it | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
is not great. Compared to what happened for many years... That was | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
not good for the country. This is not good for the country. I do not | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
actually think there is a breakdown at all. I do not know the intimate | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
detail but my impression is that actually both Philip and Theresa | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
will find a good way of operating. Tony Blair and George Brown managed | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
to run a government without operating. If you were Jean-Claude | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
Juncker or any of the other negotiators, you would look and say, | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
this government is a pushover, give them pressure and they capitulate. | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
It hardly suggest that when you get to something that really matters | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
like the Brexit negotiations that you will be able to stand up. If | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
that is a mistake that EU negotiators make it will be a very | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
serious mistake because Theresa May is no pushover. Challenged by the | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
House of Lords on a much bigger issue, she robustly stood up for the | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
position she was taking and the House of Lords backed down. If you | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
are asking the question, will Theresa May stick up for her | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
position on the EU Brexit? She will and very powerfully. I have | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
negotiated with her for 16 years and I almost always lost. Explain to me, | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
you said to me that this policy, the one announced in the budget, was | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
rational. But it was counted out in the manifesto and the rational | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
policy which was introduced last week is now no more. By definition, | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
that makes your government is rational. No. It means there was a | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
rational policy which it was not possible to pursue because the | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
manifesto was badly worded. It was a mistake. The moral case, if that is | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
as you are saying, it would have been to say, we were did the | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
manifesto wrongly, the policy stays. Between us, I would have preferred | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
it to be said. You backing the U-turn or sticking with the | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
pre-U-turn policy? The pre-U-turn policy was good. It will have to | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
come back in a different form. Sticking to the exact words of the | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
manifesto is an important issue because at the next time we issue a | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
manifesto, people need to know it is what we will do. I want to move on | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
to election expenses, your party has been fined a record ?70,000, you | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
failed to declare ?276,000 of expenses. Can nobody count in Tory | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
Central office? As you observed earlier, all three political parties | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
were found to have accounting systems which were not... Not like | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
you both. The inaccuracies were in the three by-elections as well, it | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
is a larger fine. All parties should obviously have accounting systems | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
which are perfect. The Electoral Commission said the scale was | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
completely different for the Conservatives, the scale and scope | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
of the issues concerning the Conservative Party election | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
expenses. And they could not get anything out of you. They were not | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
trained to get anything out of me! The parties should always cooperate | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
with the authorities -- they were not trying to get anything out of | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
me. The Electoral Commission said your party was guilty of | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
unreasonable and uncooperative conduct. At one stage, to get | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
central office to release information, they had to go for a | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
court order. There is law here and what parties are obliged to do is | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
break the law and part of that is to have accounting systems that work, | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
we should have that, it is an embarrassment... Given that the | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
accounting systems were pretty dodgy... Not Baggio, wrong. -- not | :22:41. | :22:49. | |
dodgy. I will not accept that they were dodgy. It suggest someone was | :22:50. | :22:59. | |
intentionally... We do not know. We both know, we all know, that the | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
prosecuting authorities, the police, are properly looking at it. Why | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
didn't you call operate? I suspect the accounting systems were just | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
wrong. It was clear you had made mistakes, intentionally or not, that | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
is a matter for down the road. Why didn't you call operate? I think the | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
party did have to cooperate will stop unreasonable and uncooperative | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
conduct. You delayed the investigation for months. When you | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
say, I did not delay anything... The party delayed the investigation for | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
months. I suspect there are many different accounts of exactly what | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
went on. The important point is, we should not have been in this | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
position. If the accounts had been perfect, this would not happen. | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
Whose fault is it? They have been reported to the police. As has the | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
opposite number in the Lib Dems. It is the correct thing to do. The | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
accounting systems were wrong. The fact is, 70,000 is a slap on the | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
wrist. You need to have a blue ball and get some Tory hedge funds | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
supporter, have little Jemima and Hamish some work express for a -- | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
work express for a couple of days. You are making it into a major | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
political thing. The real disincentive for parties which will | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
force them to keep proper accounts is the fact you have terrible | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
problems in the media and with the public if you don't. The real thing | :24:39. | :24:48. | |
is that 12 police forces are reporting your party to the CPS. I | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
suspect they will clear the party of any wrongdoing in that sense. 12 | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
police forces are wrong? All 12? We do not know what they said. You must | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
not prejudge these things. You are... We don't know what the | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
outcome is. I suspect it will be to clear them. I am saying it is wrong | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
not to have proper accounting systems. What actually keeps the | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
parties honest in that respect and make sure they do do their job | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
properly is the amount of exposure that goes on if you don't. That is | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
more important than a fine. Shouldn't we go and run the | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
by-elections again? You can do what you like! Sorry to be the moral | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
arbiter on this programme, wouldn't that be the moral thing to do? It | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
would be silly for someone to do that. They need to see what happens | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
with the prosecuting authorities. Having a moral arbiter is a pretty | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
new thing to have in politics! Oliver Letwin, thank you very much. | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
Now, let's talk a little further about that Government U-turn | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
on the rises in National Insurance contributions. | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
It was announced shortly before PMQs yesterday, which didn't give | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
Labour's Jeremy Corbyn long to work out how to exploit the climb-down. | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
But it also caused problems for some on the Conservative side, | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
including the International Development Minister, Rory Stewart, | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
who had been defending the tax rise in this very studio just before | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
It is important to understand that the majority of self-employed | :26:20. | :26:28. | |
people will not be worse off as a result of this measure. | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
The pension benefits have gone up over time and the reason for the | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
discrepancy is gone. It is important to understand | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
that the majority of self-employed people will not be worse off | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
as a result of this measure. So, if you're on, for example, | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
?17,000 a year, like the majority of my constituents, you would be | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
?309 better off in terms of your tax It sounds to me as though | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
the Government has made a difficult decision, | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
which I think is the right decision, which is that we have to keep | :26:58. | :26:59. | |
to the spirit of the manifesto. Amazing how quickly the U-turn is | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
can change people's mines! We're joined now by Tom Newton-Dunn | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
from the Sun and by Kate McCann It was a big screeching U-turn. It | :27:10. | :27:20. | |
was. Record-breaking. We have never had the main tax policy of a budget | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
collapse within seven days. Six days. That is true. The credibility | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
of the Chancellor? It has not helped him a huge amount. I would say he is | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
damaged but this is far from terminal. Rumours of Philip | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
Hammond's demise and sacking in the summer are grossly exaggerated. The | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
truth is the PM and the Chancellor are an old married couple and like a | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
lot of old married couples, there is not a lot of love left but they will | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
go on together. Speak for yourself! The last Tory manifesto was before | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
his time, he said, before the time of the current leadership, it does | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
not really wash, does it? It does not. I do not think Oliver Letwin's | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
comments will wash either, him saying we were only talking about | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
class one NICS. We have all had to learn the differences! It is | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
disingenuous to make that argument. It gets to the heart of the problem | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
which is that you should not put things like this in the manifesto | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
because National Insurance is of -- is a massive revenue raiser. Massive | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
learning curve, what have we learnt about this government? What does it | :28:39. | :28:40. | |
say about Theresa May and Philip Hammond? We have learned they are | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
seriously capable of major screw ups. We will get to the bottom of | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
this eventually. I am told there is a great story at the time of the | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
making of the decision. The original tax rise or the U-turn? The original | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
tax rise. Philip Hammond is an excessive physical disciplinarian, | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
he has to make the budgets balanced and find ways of paying for things | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
that will not come out or borrowing so he won the original battle to pay | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
for the 2 billion of social care and Oliver Letwin could have tried to | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
explain how on earth he left Philip Hammond with the hospital pass of 1 | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
million ring fences. He won the original battle and it went terribly | :29:27. | :29:28. | |
wrong and Number 10 say they predicted it in advance, hence why | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
then forced a pretty rapid U-turn. We know from that that decisions are | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
made in Number 10 far too quickly and informed and there is another | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
element, putting all of this into the wider perspective, the Tory MPs | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
are talking about this today, the sheer workload on top of the | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
Chancellor and the PM, Brexit, Donald Trump, the fiscal problem, | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
how to pay for social care and the NHS, and the Scottish referendum. | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
You think these mistakes will become more frequent as a result? Four | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
crises pretty tough to deal with and it is almost inevitable the wheels | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
will come off on one of them. We talked briefly before with Oliver | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
Letwin about if they folded under pressure over this issue, in | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
physical terms, ?2 billion, what will be the next thing they will | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
fault over? Problems with the schools funding already. The | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
government whips are worried about the bus services Bill which sounds | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
boring but lots of backbench MPs are upset about that, cutting bus | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
services in local constituencies. The wider problem is exactly what | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
you say, what it means for party discipline. Tory MPs have | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
effectively become the official opposition. Jeremy Corbyn is not | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
holding Theresa May to account. We saw that yesterday. The U-turn was | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
forced by the Tory backbenches. It is not anything to do with the | :30:54. | :30:55. | |
Labour Party. In terms of Tory backbenchers, we | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
demonstrated with Rory Stewart, he had to about-turn on air and Dominic | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
Raab was defending the policy after the Budget, how upset will they be, | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
in terms of having defended a policy that then makes them look stupid | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
when it is dropped? Very upset. There is the policy mess and the | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
communications handling of it. To have a mid-rapging Government | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
minister, live on television and not telling him, no-one bothering to | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
ring up and say - don't go too strong on this, we are about to pull | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
the rug from under your feet. Although a letter was sent. Why does | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
number ten not know we have a minister live on air defending this. | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
It wreaks of a shambles. Let's talk about Labour, Jeremy Corbyn had to | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
respond. He had about 20 minutes or so when this became apparent that | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
the Chancellor was going to drop these tax rises on national | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
insurance contributions and it seems he did not handle it W what impact | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
does that have on Labour and the Government? The impactd on the | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
Government is to cheer them up immensely. There is, as Kate says, | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
there is no official Opposition effectively. No attempt to hold | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
Theresa May to K he simply cannot do it. All he can do is wish everybody | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
a happy St Patrick's Day. An, enanity. So, off Labour Party where | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
the majority of the Labour MPs do not like him and are clubbed | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
together because the alternative could be worse than Corbyn and an | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
electorate which also does not like him and mistrusts him even more than | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
it mistrusted Ed Miliband. It is absolutely disastrous. And I can't | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
see any way out of it at all in the short term. You know, this is going | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
to go on for two years. Thank you both very much. | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
We are getting reports of a shooting in the French down of Grasse in the | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
Cote d'Azur. We don't have any details yet. Implications is that it | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
is a terrorist incident but we don't yet know. | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
Are universities restricting free speech? | :33:07. | :33:08. | |
The practice of "no-platforming", where individuals are banned | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
from speaking on campus, aren't new, but there have been reports that | :33:11. | :33:12. | |
an increasing number of people and activities are being restricted | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
over questions of sexuality, race and gender. | :33:16. | :33:17. | |
Jenny Kumah's been back to university to find out more. | :33:18. | :33:29. | |
University - a place for debating, challenging ideas and analysing | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
But campuses also strive to be places where all students feel safe | :33:33. | :33:43. | |
and able to get involved without judgment and intimidation. | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
It seems these two ideas are causing conflict on campus. | :33:48. | :33:49. | |
There is growing concern that some student unions are becoming | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
increasingly restrictive as they try to balance | :33:55. | :33:56. | |
allowing free speech with protecting different groups. | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
There have been a number of high-profile incidents recently, | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
like one union banning Mexican hats from a freshers' fare | :34:03. | :34:10. | |
for being racist, and some unions have banned cross dressing for fun. | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
Here at Queen Mary University of London, the Free-Speech Society | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
isn't happy that a vote has resulted in a ban on the Sun, | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
the Daily Mail and the Daily Express being sold at union-run shops here. | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
Why shouldn't students be able to purchase them on campus | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
and discuss the ideas and challenge them if they don't like them | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
We should have that debate and have those discussions, | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
but banning them or banning the sale of them doesn't help | :34:38. | :34:39. | |
The student union told me there is no one available | :34:40. | :34:47. | |
to give an interview today, but they have just e-mailed me | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
a statement and they say this is a commercial boycott | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
and the union should not tolerate hateful | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
discourse in its venues, including in the | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
But questions have also been raised about student unions | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
Six groups are not allowed a platform on campuses | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
But recent decisions to exclude some high-profile | :35:06. | :35:15. | |
Feminist writer Julie Bindel was barred from speaking | :35:16. | :35:25. | |
They said her views on trans people would incite hatred. | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
And a National Union of Student representative refused to share | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
a platform with gay rights activist Peter Tatchell, accusing him | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
Your party's long history of anti-Semitism, homophobia and | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
When you have got a massive platform in the media and elsewhere | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
suggesting that your freedom of speech has been curtailed | :35:47. | :35:48. | |
by you not being invited to a student union event, | :35:49. | :35:50. | |
Students are exercising their freedom of speech | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
by calling out and disagreeing with certain views. | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
But last October, police were called to the University College London | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
when things got heated as pro-Palestinian supporters | :36:06. | :36:07. | |
protested about a former Israeli soldier's talk. | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
A university report found individuals planned to stop | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
the event and created an intimidating atmosphere. | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
This week, Baroness Deech called on the Government to write | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
to university authorities to urge them to make sure that | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
their self-governing, democratically-elected student | :36:25. | :36:33. | |
Universities need to act promptly when the law is broken and deal | :36:34. | :36:44. | |
with the offending students quickly, otherwise the students will go down, | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
it will be the end of term, and the situation will not | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
Baroness Deech says she is considering putting | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
forward an amendment to the Higher Education Bill | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
to strengthen free speech at universities, but the Government | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
insists there are already sufficient laws in place. | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
Before we move on. More reports of what is happening in France. Several | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
people seem to be injured in a shooting incident at a French | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
school. A gunman son understood to have opened fire at a high school in | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
Grasse, about 30 minutes north of Cannes on the Cote d'Azur. The | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
headteacher is said to be among those wounded. So we are getting a | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
little bit more of a picture there, but still a lot yet to come through. | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
Going back to the story we did the film on now. We are joined by author | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
and journalist Kate Welsh. Welcome to the programme. A recent free | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
speech survey by Spike said 94% of UK universities have censored free | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
speech in the past year, some have no platform, people like Germaine | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
Greer, Roger sth Scruton and a human rights' activist called Miriam | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
Namasi. Are you happy? I don't believe it is censorship. I think | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
freedom of speech is the right to accept the consequences of that | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
speech. That means if certain institutions don't want to promote | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
or give you a platform to say these things, then you have to accept | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
that. Really? Yes, I do. That's not curtailing freedom of speech? No, I | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
don't think it is. But people... People like Germaine Greer. But you | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
have taken away the freedom of these people to speak at the university? | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
They can speak wherever they like. But it freedom of speech is not | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
freedom to be invited wherever you want. What is the point of a | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
university if you don't allow a variety of views to be expressed? A | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
variety of views, that's absolutely fine. Clearly not if you are | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
Germaine Greer. I think - students are being asked to pay increasingly | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
higher fees. I think that if they object to people like Germaine | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
Greer, Julie Bindel and others being given, frequently pretty hefty | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
speaking frees and a plot form at their universities. Julie Bildel | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
does not take fees for that and she has worked for 30 years raising | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
awareness of violence against women and done so, you know, thanklessly | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
and for her to be bored from universities, simply because she has | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
a different view to you or so. People in that university about | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
transgender issues is a disgrace, as it is with Peter Tatchell. Hold on, | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
hold on. Let Kate Welsh come back. Just to save money. It is ludicrous. | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
I think Julie Bindel has done some fantastic things for women's issues, | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
I will not decry that. I believe she has frequently incited hatred | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
against transgender people. She hasn't. She has defended them. I | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
have heard her do it. She has done it to me of I have spoken to her | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
about it. She has supported trapped gender people. She look test notion, | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
a scientific fact that someone who has transitioned from a man to a | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
woman is still, technically, essentially, a man. The issue is not | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
right or wrong, the issue is shouldn't you be able to hear the | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
views on both sides of the argument. The Lincoln university, the student | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
union t banned the university Conservative Association from social | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
media because the Association had point odd out that the university | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
had a low ranking what enit came to free speech. This is getting | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
ridiculous I don't think that is on the same par as criticising who is | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
being invited to speak at universities or to say that a | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
democratically elected student union, preferring not to sell papers | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
like the Daily Mail. Why would you do it at all? Why are you scared | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
of... ? I'm in the remotely scared. Isn't a university exactly the place | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
where there should be this cross fertilisation of ideas of political | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
opinions, a breadth of ininformed opinion, of contentious opinion, of | :40:50. | :40:51. | |
things which you might find difficult to accept and things which | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
I might find difficult to accept. That's what should happen at | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
university. Surely that's point? But freedom of speech and freedom of | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
expression for minority groups has traditionally been oppressed or made | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
difficult to access by people who criticise their ability to exist, | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
like Julie Bindel with transpeople. She doesn't criticise that. We havep | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
been around that. The principle at issue is here is not the rights or | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
wrongs of any of the issue, it is that a of university, if you are | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
lucky enough to get to one, is one of the view times in your life when | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
you can go along and hear every view under the sun, but, in fact, what is | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
happening now, is that the views are being channelled into a very narrow | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
tunnel and if you are outside of that with your views, you don't get | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
in? I think it is a very exciting time to be a student right now. I | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
graduated ten years ago, we didn't - the progressive movement that's | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
flowering now was reallip only in bud then but I think students are | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
turning around and saying no to bigotry and hate speech. Well they | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
can go to meetingsings and say that. It is a main or the doing that. It | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
is the minority in the student unions doing that. I speak to | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
someone with a kid at university. He said all this rubbish, this idiocy, | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
this politically correct nonsense has no purchase whatsoever amongst | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
the wider student body. It has a purchase only amongst the perenlely | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
active amongst the political groups within there. . Who are generally | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
from oppressed groups. Universities have been a safe place for straight, | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
white men. We are seeing now an increase, a levelling of the playing | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
field for other voices to be heard. You are stopping other people's | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
voices being heard. That will mean removing the platform from one | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
person and giving it to someone else. Well, a women removing it from | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
a gay woman. City University in London, a who runs a well-known | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
journalism course, voted to ban the Daily Mail and The Daily Express. | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
Running a journalism course, fabulous The Daily Mail and | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
journalism don't go hand in hand. That is your view. That doesn't give | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
you a vote for banning them They are saying that in this specific campus, | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
they are not banning it anywhere else. Where people are studying | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
journalism. If you don't like the Daily Mail, I can understand that, | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
but... It is commercial boycotting. There was theed a am Smith institute | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
support recently which suggested, I think that 85% of university | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
lecturers tended to the left, were liberals, tended to the left. Sure | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
but that's always been the case. That's regularly the case, pretty | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
much. Back in the '60s they did this comparison it was something like | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
60%, still a majority but nothing like the hegonomy within those | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
universities now, is all from this sort of left, liberal, censorious, | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
intolerant and there are tearian. Well that's your view as well. Sthoo | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
yes, I have just said it. Yes, in terms of viewpoint, it isn't | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
generally accepted by everyone that that is the view at universities. | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
Well left-wing view is. Thank you very much. We'll move on. | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
Now, it's been another interesting week for Ukip, | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
after they were forced to deny on Tuesday that they had suspended | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
former donor and founder of the Leave.EU campaign, | :44:22. | :44:22. | |
Mr Banks had previously donated ?1 million to the party, | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
but in recent months, he had been very critical of the new Ukip | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
leadership and of the party's only Westminster MP. | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
On Tuesday morning, Mr Banks tweeted that his Ukip | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
He claimed this was because he had accused the current Ukip leadership | :44:36. | :44:43. | |
of not being able to "knock the skin off a rice pudding". | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
And also confirmed he would be setting up his own "movement" - | :44:47. | :44:57. | |
calling it Ukip 2.0 the force awakens - on Twitter. | :44:58. | :44:59. | |
A Ukip party spokesman instead said that Mr Banks | :45:00. | :45:01. | |
had not been suspended but that his membership lapsed | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
in January and he "chose not to renew, despite reminders". | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, who isn't exactly best | :45:07. | :45:08. | |
friends with Mr Banks, made the slightly barbed response, | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
"It's always very sad when one of Ukip's 40,000 members leaves | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
the party for whatever reason," he said. | :45:15. | :45:15. | |
And we are joined now by the Ukip MEP, Bill Etheridge. | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
Welcome to the programme. Is the party trying to silence Arron Banks? | :45:21. | :45:30. | |
Ukip does not silence anyone, we are often in the headlines for debating | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
things voraciously between us. You could not silence Arron Banks if you | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
wanted to. Has he been suspended? His membership lapse. There is no | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
hard feelings for the leadership towards Arron Banks and I would hope | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
the other way round either. Even though he has been critical of the | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
currently. Paul Nuttall? Arron Banks does not say things in a politically | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
correct way. He did a fantastic job in the referendum. I wish him well. | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
Relations cannot be that cordial or he would not be setting up a new | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
movement, he would be staying with Ukip. He has been speaking about a | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
new movement for some time. It will not be competing with Ukip, as I | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
understand it. It will be called the patriotic alliance and we have heard | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
today from Mr Banks's spokesman that it will be launched the day after | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
the May elections. Good luck to him. Democracy. You said relations are | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
still cordial and there are no hard feelings, that does not smack of | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
cordial relations if you go and set up a rival party. You can have a | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
difference of opinion. He can do whatever he wants. He is a very | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
political guy and that is great. Do you support him in his venture? | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
Would you consider joining? No, I am Ukip until the end and I am going to | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
be a part of it until the end. If it is called Ukip 2.0, the force of w | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
is, Star Wars and allergies, doesn't it feel as if Ukip is at war with | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
itself or not with itself, with another party? -- the force awakens. | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
He did a cross-party organisation and his aim was very similar to ours | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
and he has been a great help, a donor and many other things and I am | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
very grateful. Are you welcoming this new party adding to the colour | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
of democracy? No, it sounds ludicrous. The title of it and the | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
way it has been presented. The thing which Ukip is often prone to, | :47:42. | :47:54. | |
occasional bursts of amour propre. There is a huge deficit in this | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
country, a vast number of people are not prepared to vote for Jeremy | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
Corbyn's Labour Party and they are not prepared to vote for what has | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
become a shambles of Ukip, what we saw at Stoke and Copland. There are | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
all of the votes out there looking for a conduit. Ukip is effectively | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
dissolving. That is how it seems to me. I am not going to sit here next | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
to you of all people and say, we did a great job in Stoke. It was | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
disastrous. However, it does not mean we cannot improve and learn | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
from it. There is a whole range of things we can do. This country needs | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
a party that is more about lower taxation, smaller state, less | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
politically correct. I do not think that appeals to many of the Labour | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
voters in the north. Moving on election spending, as you know, | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
files have been sent to prosecutors and the Tory party has been fined | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
?70,000 by the Electoral Commission for issues to do with the election | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
expenses. In theory, as Rod Liddle raised earlier, there could be a | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
by-election. Why haven't you asked for one in South Thanet? We are | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
waiting to see how things develop. I would love to see one and I think we | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
would come up very strong. You could have challenged it at the time? The | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
party is watching and seeing how it develops. If there is not unity, we | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
will go at it, all guns blazing, and we would have a very strong | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
candidate. You would support Nigel Farage Rennie again? Great | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
politician. Did you listen to his interview with Marine Le Pen? I have | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
not listened to it yet. It will be good, I am sure. When I spoke to him | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
about Marine Le Pen a while ago, he distanced himself from the French | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
presidential candidate, she was not that then. He said, we do not want | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
anything to do with her. Why is he cosying up to her now? There are | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
fundamental differences in policy between Ukip and the National Front. | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
Many of them. It was right not to go into a grouping. For Nigel to speak | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
to another patriotic leader in Europe, have discussions, that is | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
perfectly legitimate. Now they are friends? Nigel is friendly with lots | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
of people, it does not mean they are on the same page politically. There | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
is an arguing for saying Theresa May should speak to her as well. An | :50:25. | :50:32. | |
intruder burst into the high school in southern France and open fire. | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
The town hall in Grasse saying it is not a terrorism incident, it | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
involved students. The BBC News Channel will keep you abreast of | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
developments during the day. Theresa May has just been speaking about the | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
second independence referendum for Scotland which has been proposed by | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
the Scottish Nationalists. She has said, now is not the time. Just now | :50:59. | :51:07. | |
we should be putting all our energies into making sure we get the | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
right deal for the UK and Scotland in our negotiations with the EU. | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
That is my job as Prime Minister. Right now, we should be working | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
together and not pulling apart, we should be working together to get | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
the right deal for Scotland and the UK. That is my job as Prime | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
Minister. For that reason, I say to the SNP, now is not the time. | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
Argument developing as to when the next referendum for Scottish | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
independence should be. The Prime Minister saying not one Brexit | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
negotiations going on. -- not while. Now, if you're a fan of cars | :51:41. | :51:49. | |
with plenty of leather, gold, wood-panelling and high-tech gadgets | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
- it sounds a bit like Jo-Co's Austin Allegro - | :51:53. | :51:54. | |
then you could be in for a treat this weekend because a limousine | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
that was made for one Donald J Trump Introducing the ultimate | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
Trump-mobile. In 1988, this luxury limo was | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
designed exclusively by Cadillac to carry The Donald around | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
his business empire. But for the last ten years, | :52:14. | :52:22. | |
it's been in this mechanic's yard in the little less | :52:23. | :52:31. | |
glamorous Gloucester. It's now owned by Craig Ayres | :52:32. | :52:33. | |
who says he saved it from the He knew I was interested | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
in Cadillacs and limos I knew it was something different, | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
I bought it there and then and drove Rumour has it Trump made | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
a deal with Cadillac to This was a prototype but the plans | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
were abandoned and Trump just kept It's different to drive | :52:52. | :53:02. | |
than anything else. You don't drive a Cadillac, | :53:03. | :53:04. | |
you pilot one. It had a lot of features | :53:05. | :53:06. | |
on there well ahead of its Everybody looks at it, | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
a lot of people like it. When this car was built, | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
no expense was spared. It was designed to cater | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
for Trump's every mood. Its rosewood interiors housed | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
a once state-of-the-art TV, VCR and even | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
afax machine. The roof was heightened | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
for extra space, and the personalised branding left nothing | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
to the imagination as to who might Howdy, young lady, | :53:30. | :53:31. | |
what do you want to know? What was it like being | :53:32. | :53:48. | |
owned by Donald Trump? It was pretty hair-raising, | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
let me tell you. There's a lot of beautiful women | :53:52. | :53:53. | |
that's ridden in me, I tell you. I hope I can find another | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
owner to love me. The car is up for auction on Sunday, | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
so, soon, someone else can Joining us now is the design critic | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
and author, Stephen Bayley. This limousine, the auction estimate | :54:13. | :54:35. | |
is between 10- ?12,000. I believe everything we buy tells stories | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
about us. It probably betrays us. You can see this in Trompe's | :54:42. | :54:48. | |
properties. Churchill once said about, we shape our buildings and | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
our buildings shaped us. Here we have a man who wants to live on a | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
golf course. Someone once described golf as the last refinement of the | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
suburban mind. Here you have a man, the leader of the free world, | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
dedicated himself to it. There are other paradigms where a president | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
might live, Frank Lloyd Wright, on the Prairie, the could have chosen a | :55:13. | :55:25. | |
heart. -- hut. The first television interview he did after he won the | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
election, he was sitting on the Louis XVI Simon King golden throne. | :55:33. | :55:40. | |
-- Sun King. How will you liberate the dispossessed of Kentucky? | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
Someone once said there was a marvellous line about the woman who | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
did all of Henry Frick's collecting for him, he introduced new American | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
money to old French furniture. There has always been that sort of thing | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
in American taste, you project status, the Cadillac, gold helps, | :56:01. | :56:08. | |
French references help. The Cadillac, the stretch limo, there | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
was a time, in the 80s and 90s, that was not an unusual sight in New | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
York. The thing unique in having that. It was a commodity stuff for | :56:17. | :56:24. | |
midtown Manhattan. It has rather changed now. You do not see the | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
stretch limos so much now, even in New York. Were they ever considered | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
good taste? No, I do not think so. I would be prepared to bid for the car | :56:38. | :56:47. | |
except it is not quite bling enough. I want it to offend people. The | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
problem is, these cars may work on the avenues and streets of New York, | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
they do not work on the Ben Delaney is of the Home Counties. -- bendy | :57:00. | :57:10. | |
lanes. It is a projection of tasteful stop he has a lot of taste | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
and it is always bad. It is 70s, is it? What about Donald Trump's taste? | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
I am told an MOT comes with it for a couple of months. If the tax comes | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
as well, I am in! You have your own flag on the door! I think it is a | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
rather beautiful car and I do not like cars very much. Is it | :57:37. | :57:44. | |
snobbery...? Yes, of course it is. He seems to be assessed with gilded | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
stuff. There is the strange thing in Trump Tower, I was speaking about | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
his preference... Trump Tower, the interior, the lobby is designed to | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
be waterfalls and gold and escalators, reflective surfaces | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
often used by people insecure in their tastes in order to project, | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
his apartment, I have not been invited but I have seen pictures, | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
that was designed by one of the people who worked on his casinos. | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
The president, golf and casinos, his parameters for interior design. | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
Heaven for him! In most parts of America, that will impress them. | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
I'll be back here tonight on BBC One after Question Time for This Week, | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
with Michael Portillo, Liz Kendall, Agnes Poirier, | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
historian Kate Williams and Andrew Rawnsley. | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
I'll also be back at noon tomorrow with all the big political | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
The psychiatrist was a figment of his imagination. | :58:47. | :59:03. | |
You never live in the moment any more. | :59:04. | :59:10. | |
Can we find her before he does something? | :59:11. | :59:18. | |
If anything were to happen to her, Charlie... | :59:19. | :59:22. |