17/03/2017 Daily Politics


17/03/2017

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Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon trade blows over a new independence

:00:37.:00:45.

referendum for Scotland - which of them will come out on top?

:00:46.:00:50.

Hold the front page - from high-vis to hack,

:00:51.:00:57.

George Osborne is the new editor of the London Evening Standard.

:00:58.:01:01.

And breaking up's not always easy, so what can

:01:02.:01:07.

Czechoslovakia's Velvet Divorce teach us about Brexit?

:01:08.:01:12.

All that in the next hour and with us for the first

:01:13.:01:15.

half of the programme - Channel Four wanted her

:01:16.:01:18.

for the Great British Bakeoff, but they had to settle for that

:01:19.:01:21.

So we have journalist and former press secretary to Paddy Ashdown -

:01:22.:01:26.

who I think still counts herself as a Liberal Democrat -

:01:27.:01:29.

First this morning, in the last hour the BBC has learned

:01:30.:01:35.

that former Chancellor, George Osborne, is to be the editor

:01:36.:01:38.

He is going to combine the job with the reigning as an MP, we are told.

:01:39.:01:47.

He's got lots of other interests as well.

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The man who broke the news is the BBC's media editor,

:01:50.:01:52.

Why is he doing this? I think he is doing this because it's a clear

:01:53.:02:01.

indication that he doesn't think that staying within Parliament and

:02:02.:02:04.

staying part of Theresa May's team is going to be a fruitful few years

:02:05.:02:09.

of his life. He's still very much in his prime, 45 years old. The way he

:02:10.:02:14.

was dismissed from cabinet in a rather brutal fashion last summer,

:02:15.:02:18.

where Theresa May briefed the line out saying if you wanted to lead the

:02:19.:02:24.

Tory party he needs to better understand it from the backbenches,

:02:25.:02:29.

I think it left him feeling a bit left out. How on earth he reconciles

:02:30.:02:33.

this with the other jobs he's got, one being a full-time MP and another

:02:34.:02:41.

with four days a rock with -- four days a month with Black Rock where

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he gets paid ?650,000 a year which most people take a lifetime to

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earn... There will also be a boundary change... Hold on, let's

:02:52.:03:00.

undertake some of this bit by bit. In your view, is he aware of just

:03:01.:03:05.

how gruelling the job of being a hands-on editor of the Standard is.

:03:06.:03:10.

You have to be at your desk by six aim to me you've got several edits

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and is to get away and by mid-afternoon when you do that

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you've then got to get all the feature pages away for the next day.

:03:17.:03:21.

It is a 12, sometimes 15 hour day. How can you do that and be an MP?

:03:22.:03:26.

Andrew, you be an MP? Andrew, you been an editor, you were editor of

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the Sunday Times and I was editor of the Independent. It is an

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extraordinarily ruling job, I sometimes did 100 hours a week. It

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is extraordinarily gruelling. I would sometimes be at the office at

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five in the morning. The Standard has come down to one edition so he

:03:49.:03:54.

thinks he might be free by the afternoon but it doesn't work like

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that, you've got to go to meetings and shares starve. It's not just

:03:59.:04:01.

about seeing off the pages, it's about managing a team, dealing with

:04:02.:04:06.

different politicians and commercial strategy. He is paid a tonne of

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money by Black Rock, major financial institution, where does that leave

:04:13.:04:16.

the city pages of the Evening Standard? They are compromised? It

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will be very interesting to see how George Osborne covers Black Rock and

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the pages of the Standard as well. His former senior adviser is one of

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the people who helped recruit him there. He has huge connections in

:04:31.:04:33.

the world of asset management and also huge connections in the world

:04:34.:04:39.

of Conservative politics. What I'm going to be looking closely at how

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he covers the Conservative Party. The worst thing that could happen

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for the Evening Standard and four George Osborne would be for him to

:04:46.:04:49.

come across as a Tory lackey. For what it's worth I don't think he

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will. I think he thinks that vengeance is a dish best served

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through the pages of a very powerful newspaper and I think this is

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something of a coup for the Standard. But how does he reconciles

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it with his other jobs, we will see. It's a coup for someone who is a

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journalist never minded politician! I'm waiting for an application to be

:05:11.:05:16.

a brain surgeon! You used to work for them, what is in this for the

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Ledvedevs, who own the Evening Standard? They get a high profile

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and high calibre editor. You don't know he's high calibre: he has never

:05:29.:05:32.

been an editor! It is an interesting and bold appointment. The Standard

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does not have a cover price so it is very reliant on print media

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advertising. That is a market that is disappearing to the tune of about

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20%. What George Osborne is going to have to do is not just the editorial

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bid but also the commercial bid, transforming that business from

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being just a journalistic business to one that deals with events,

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ticketing, marketing, data, all that kind of stuff that newspaper

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companies now have to do and that is what the Ledvedevs will want him to

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do. All right. Congratulations on breaking the story. It has surprised

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and increased my propensity to be surprised, that is for sure. We are

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joined now from his constituency from the Labour MP John Mann. What

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is your reaction to his appointment as the editor of the Evening

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Standard? Well, I would be saying good luck to him, off you go, just

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like my colleague Tristram Hunt going off to be the director of the

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Victoria and Albert easy for some reason. But he seems to want to stay

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on and collect his parliamentary salary as well! It seems to me he is

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taking the Mickey out of the taxpayer and the general public. It

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would be unprecedented, we can't find a previous example of this, him

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remaining a member of Parliament and of course as we were saying he has

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got several interests as well, you don't think he can do that and be a

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hands-on editor of the Evening Standard? You don't think he can do

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both? He won't be taking anyone's share of work in parliament coming

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won't be attending any committees, he won't be attending the sessions

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inside parliament. He will turn up to the occasional vote, having not

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heard the debate. And I think that is fundamentally wrong. It also

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devalues our democracy because his constituents are not getting value

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for money out of it. We all know he's going to go at the next

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election because he has been booted out by Theresa May ignominiously and

:07:36.:07:39.

the boundary commission abolishes his seat! He ought to go now, and

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good luck to him if he goes. Tristram Hunt did the honourable

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thing, he got a new job and he didn't pretend he could do a second

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job as well. In George Osborne's case, this is a third job back row

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wrecks totally an acceptable for him to still be standing. Why do you

:07:57.:08:01.

think he's going to go at the next election? He may see himself and

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many close to him do, that he is the king of the water and now the king

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of the editor's seat in the Standard. If the whole Brexit

:08:11.:08:14.

business goes wrong, he could see himself placed for a comeback in the

:08:15.:08:19.

Tory party and the Standard may well provide him with a springboard to do

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that. George told us it was all going to be disaster by now and he

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was wrong on that. So his economic predictions have never proved to be

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very reliable. But what's he going to be doing as an MP? I've just done

:08:34.:08:40.

three surgeries and I've got another two to do today in my constituency.

:08:41.:08:44.

People come to me with issues they can only go to an MP on. To give you

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an example, the very last person I saw 20 minutes ago is the mother of

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a British soldier murdered by the IRA in 1979 and she is angry that

:08:54.:09:01.

there is no national memorial for those that were killed in Northern

:09:02.:09:05.

Ireland. The only person she can go to his/her MP. Will she get any joy

:09:06.:09:09.

out of me raising the issue? I've no idea. I will do so do the best of my

:09:10.:09:15.

ability. If she's got nowhere else to go, George Osborne is not going

:09:16.:09:20.

to be doing that kind of work, and it devalues Parliament by allowing

:09:21.:09:25.

MPs to carry on in this way and Pretend, because that's what he's

:09:26.:09:29.

doing, that he is being an MP, when he's not. He's doing two other jobs

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and he shouldn't be an MP as well. OK, thank you for that.

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We are joined in the studio by George, political commentator. Is

:09:37.:09:48.

this a stepping stone to a new dimension in his political career?

:09:49.:09:52.

Or is it a stepping stone out of politics and into other things? I

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think it's a stepping stone out of politics, Andrew. Because I think

:09:57.:10:00.

George Osborne didn't stand down at the same time as his friend David

:10:01.:10:05.

Cameron did because he still thought he might have a route back into the

:10:06.:10:10.

top of politics. Especially wanting to get his own back on Theresa May

:10:11.:10:14.

four way that she got rid of him. But I think he has possibly realised

:10:15.:10:19.

that's not going to happen. This is the sort of job that, if it comes

:10:20.:10:23.

up, it's very difficult for someone who always wanted to be a

:10:24.:10:30.

journalist, to refuse. The EU by that? Because all the information I

:10:31.:10:34.

have suggests that George Osborne has been biding his time? -- do you

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buy that? He thinks it will be a disaster, it will end in tears and

:10:41.:10:44.

he will be vindicated. I think if he does want this to be a way back into

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the very top politics, it would be the very top I imagine that he would

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be interested in, I think he's making some serious miss calculation

:10:52.:10:55.

is. For example, a few days a month on an incredibly inflated salary at

:10:56.:11:00.

a financial institution doesn't go down well with the public and I

:11:01.:11:03.

think the idea of running a newspaper for the capital city when

:11:04.:11:06.

you are simultaneously, on the same day it was announced, today, that he

:11:07.:11:15.

had the job at the Standard, he was one of the most controversial voices

:11:16.:11:18.

lobbying on this issue of school funding. He cannot do both!

:11:19.:11:27.

Certainly in terms of the logistics, if he wants to be a hands-on editor

:11:28.:11:31.

it is very hard is the how he can be an MP, having had first-hand

:11:32.:11:35.

experience of what is involved in being an editor. But what is in it

:11:36.:11:42.

for the Ledvedevs? What is in it for the Russian oligarchs that owned

:11:43.:11:48.

this newspaper? As they said, it is a coup for the Standard, to have

:11:49.:11:56.

someone that high-calibre as the front man for the newspaper. Is he

:11:57.:12:01.

going to be Dave facto and editor in chief above the fray where someone

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else does all the hard work? That's what we're going to have to seek.

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Because there are two ways of doing this, you can either be the front

:12:10.:12:13.

person, the person who networks for the Evening Standard, presents the

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Evening Standard on the grand stage, or you can be someone who gets

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involved with the inky staff. He wanted to be a journalist when you

:12:24.:12:28.

was a young man. He wasn't back, they didn't hire him! Coming in as

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editor! Was he born with a silver pen in his mouth? As you possibly

:12:34.:12:41.

know, he is a very entertaining and engaging person in private.

:12:42.:12:44.

Absolutely. But the Evening Standard is the paper of Europe's financial

:12:45.:12:53.

capital. He is being paid, what is it, ?650,000 a year by one of the

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major financial institutions. Where does that leave the Standard's city

:13:00.:13:03.

pages? I think he will have to make a choice. If he enjoys being editor

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of the Standard then being an adviser to Black Rock and an MP will

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have to go. Good the Ledvedevs afford to match his salary... I

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don't think he needs that money, didn't think anyone does. Well, he

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has taken it! Yes, but for how long. I don't think he regards Black Rock

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is a long-term solution. Maybe he fancied being there of London. The

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question of whether you get inky fingers or you are celebrity editor,

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I think it is important for the standard to have that kind of

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figurehead. The previous editor was very good because she managed to do

:13:47.:13:51.

both. But she was a proper journalist. She was a proper

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journalist and she editorially positioned the Standard very well

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but she was also on the party pages making sure the Standard was hosting

:14:00.:14:06.

all the big debates and you don't have to be a non-journalist to

:14:07.:14:09.

deliver that for the Standard, I think it is a bit of an insult to

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the profession. This is a Labour city. How would you deal with the

:14:16.:14:26.

Standard? This is it has always had that problem because it is a

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slightly conservative leaning newspaper. It had me completely by

:14:31.:14:35.

surprise but game on! Me to! Thank you.

:14:36.:14:39.

The war of words between the Prime Minister, Theresa May,

:14:40.:14:45.

and Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, showed

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no sign of abating today as both leaders

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address their party's conferences this weekend.

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The pair started trading blows after Ms Sturgeon called on Monday

:14:51.:14:53.

for a second referendum on independence for Scotland to be

:14:54.:14:55.

held between Autumn 2018 and Spring 2019 in light of the Brexit vote.

:14:56.:14:58.

Ms Sturgeon was first to launch an attack, saying she had

:14:59.:15:01.

been "met with a brick wall of intransigence" from Westminster.

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But Theresa May was quick to retaliate, accusing the SNP

:15:06.:15:07.

of "tunnel vision" and "playing politics with the future

:15:08.:15:09.

After suggestions that the Prime Minister could block the referendum

:15:10.:15:13.

until after the 2021 Holyrood, the First Minister shot back

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on twitter, "I was elected as FM on a clear manifesto

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The PM is not yet elected by anyone."

:15:19.:15:21.

That didn't seem to faze Mrs May, who used an interview yesterday

:15:22.:15:24.

to repeat her view that "now is not the time" for a referendum, saying,

:15:25.:15:27.

"It would be unfair to Scotland," to hold one before Brexit

:15:28.:15:32.

But Ms Sturgeon described the Prime Minister's attitude

:15:33.:15:38.

as a "democratic outrage" and insisted that it will be

:15:39.:15:40.

We're joined now from the SNP Spring Conference in Aberdeen

:15:41.:15:48.

by the party's deputy leader, Angus Robertson.

:15:49.:15:56.

The First Minister wants a referendum before the spring of

:15:57.:16:04.

2019, when the whole Article 50 process should end, the Prime

:16:05.:16:09.

Minister says no, not one until at least after the Brexit process is

:16:10.:16:15.

done and dusted. What happens next? Well I think it is important to

:16:16.:16:20.

unpick what that means, because the Prime Minister and this is where it

:16:21.:16:24.

gets confusing, she says there shouldn't be a referendum in

:16:25.:16:27.

Scotland now. Now, the time is not right. I agree with her and the

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Scottish Government is not proposing to hold a referendum now, because

:16:32.:16:36.

the negotiations are about to start. The Scottish Government has said

:16:37.:16:39.

that it makes sense for people in Scotland to know the outcome of the

:16:40.:16:44.

Brexit negotiations. To that extent there is not a disagreement. What

:16:45.:16:50.

confuses me is the British wants to create the impression that it is OK

:16:51.:16:55.

for Parliaments, the British and the European Parliaments and other

:16:56.:16:59.

European governments to agree to deal on Brexit, but people in

:17:00.:17:03.

Scotland will be denied that choice. What is happening is that the Tories

:17:04.:17:10.

are trying to suggest that they're intransigent, but not saying they're

:17:11.:17:14.

ruling o' ought referendum. -- ruling out a referendum. So it is

:17:15.:17:18.

important to understand the time scales, the UK Government should be

:17:19.:17:22.

able to proceed with negotiations. There is a mandate in England and

:17:23.:17:27.

Wales for Brexit. I #3w But it would be unfair to deny the people in

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Scotland a choice. There is supposed to be six months lchs s... I haven't

:17:32.:17:38.

got much time. There has been some stories o' going on in London. I

:17:39.:17:43.

will ask your reaction. Will I be offered a job editing the daily

:17:44.:17:48.

politics. Maybe, you should see the crew we have at the moment.

:17:49.:17:54.

Honestly. I still pay my membership to the national union of

:17:55.:17:56.

journalists. I don't think George Osborne has ever done that. You

:17:57.:18:00.

could be right. You or Nicola Sturgeon are assuming we will know

:18:01.:18:05.

the nature of the Brexit deal by the autumn of 2018, but you know the way

:18:06.:18:11.

Europe works, this things could go down to the wire and if we don't

:18:12.:18:14.

know the nature of the Brexit deal until the very last minute, when

:18:15.:18:21.

would you then have the referendum? That can't happen. It simply can't

:18:22.:18:25.

happen for the reason there needs to be approval in the UK and in the EU

:18:26.:18:31.

and among the member states. You're right, often things overrun in a

:18:32.:18:35.

European context. But there must be a period, whether it is negotiated

:18:36.:18:41.

within the two years, or whether there is some sort of extension, one

:18:42.:18:46.

way or the other, there has to be a period for Parliaments to agree the

:18:47.:18:50.

deal and the European institutions to agree the deal and it is a simple

:18:51.:18:55.

basic democratic point if there is a period for decision-making, then not

:18:56.:18:59.

only should Parliaments in Britain and Europe be able to decide on our

:19:00.:19:02.

future, but voters in Scotland should be able to decide too and we

:19:03.:19:08.

are democrats and think the First Minister was elected with a mandate,

:19:09.:19:11.

something the Prime Minister does not have on this, that there should

:19:12.:19:15.

be a referendum with a change of circumstances like Scotland being

:19:16.:19:18.

taken out of the EU against our will. That is what should happen.

:19:19.:19:24.

You are a democrat and you will know that the ability to call a

:19:25.:19:27.

referendum is a reserved power for Westminster. If Westminster does not

:19:28.:19:34.

approve that within the time scale you want, would you consider calling

:19:35.:19:39.

an advisory referendum in Scotland? Well, I think the important thing to

:19:40.:19:43.

bear in mind is that this is going to be decided on in the Scottish

:19:44.:19:47.

Parliament next week. I think people need to understand how, I'm not sure

:19:48.:19:51.

all of your viewers will understand there will be a vote in the Scottish

:19:52.:19:54.

Parliament next week as to whether there should be an independence

:19:55.:19:59.

referendum. I think some people don't understand how incendiary it

:20:00.:20:05.

would be for a UK government to overrule Scotland's democratically

:20:06.:20:07.

elected Parliament and its Government that has Hamman Tait --

:20:08.:20:12.

that has a mandate on this and the Prime Minister said now is not the

:20:13.:20:16.

time for a referendum. We agree. What is the answer to my question,

:20:17.:20:23.

will you call an advisory referendum? No, that is not my plan,

:20:24.:20:32.

our plan is to make sure the UK Government lives up to its

:20:33.:20:35.

responsibility that if we are in a union 245 that is a partnership of

:20:36.:20:42.

equals, they have to respect Scotland's Parliament and if they

:20:43.:20:45.

vote for a referendum and the Prime Minister wants to continue by

:20:46.:20:49.

declaiming the UK is based on respect, she must respect that

:20:50.:20:55.

decision. If not, the claims are shown to be empty. There was a time

:20:56.:21:00.

when you and Nicola Sturgeon talked about there has to be the clear will

:21:01.:21:04.

of Scottish people to have a second referendum. Now you had a second

:21:05.:21:09.

referendum in your man ifesto on the the conditions you said, there will

:21:10.:21:12.

probably be a majority in the Scottish Parliament. But there is no

:21:13.:21:16.

evidence that it is the clear will of the Scottish people to have a

:21:17.:21:22.

second referendum. Hold on a second. You're just stressing and quite

:21:23.:21:26.

rightly that the Scottish Government was elected with a manifesto

:21:27.:21:30.

commitment. I know UK governments think they can break these things,

:21:31.:21:34.

but in Scotland it matters and our government was elected with more

:21:35.:21:38.

votes than the Labour Party and the Conservative Party combined in

:21:39.:21:41.

Scotland and you're suggesting that if Scotland's votes there should be

:21:42.:21:45.

a referendum, that a UK Government can ignore that. I'm not suggesting

:21:46.:21:50.

that, I'm asking you a question, I'm asking a question and you're tap

:21:51.:21:53.

dancing around it. If you would let me finish. I would like you to

:21:54.:22:02.

answer the question. This is right at the heart of matter, people in

:22:03.:22:07.

Westminster need to understand if they disregard Scotland's

:22:08.:22:10.

Parliament, a majority voting in favour of Scotland having a

:22:11.:22:13.

referendum, and they are then going to go on to say that Scotland not

:22:14.:22:18.

only cannot have a referendum now, but it must take even more years and

:22:19.:22:23.

Scotland will have left the EU by then, the consequences for the

:22:24.:22:28.

United Kingdom is there will not be a United Kingdom. Because the

:22:29.:22:33.

fiction of respect will have exposed as being empty. Let me try again. I

:22:34.:22:42.

used to talk to SNP politicians and activists and they used to say,

:22:43.:22:47.

look, we need clear evidence in the opinion poms that Scotland -- polls

:22:48.:22:52.

that Scotland wants another referendum. A number of of polls,

:22:53.:23:01.

50% there there should not be a referendum. There is not a clear

:23:02.:23:05.

will of the Scottish people as yet to have a second referendum. I'm

:23:06.:23:13.

terribly sorry, Andrew, you have only read Ute from part of SNP

:23:14.:23:18.

manifesto and should have. I was reading from John Curtice. If in is

:23:19.:23:24.

a material change in circumstances and Scotland faces being taken out

:23:25.:23:32.

of the EU against its will I'm not arguing that. I'm not talking about

:23:33.:23:36.

opinion polls when the Scottish people had a vote, they voted for an

:23:37.:23:40.

SNP Government on the basis of that manifesto. Not opinion polls. I'm

:23:41.:23:46.

not arguing about that. In a democracy, when people are elected

:23:47.:23:49.

to do that, that is what they should do. That is what the SNP plans to

:23:50.:23:55.

do. Can you give us evidence that as opinion stands now in Scotland, that

:23:56.:23:59.

the Scottish people want a second referendum? Where is the evidence

:24:00.:24:02.

that there is a majority among the Scottish people for a second

:24:03.:24:07.

referendum? As you well know, there are a range of polls, some of them

:24:08.:24:12.

showing that people want a referendum now. Not one shows a

:24:13.:24:17.

majority for that. Some saying they don't want a referendum at al. But

:24:18.:24:23.

our political system is not based on opinion polls, but on real votes and

:24:24.:24:28.

in Scotland we had a real vote and the people decided to elect a

:24:29.:24:34.

Scottish Government led by the SNP with a cast iron manifesto on this

:24:35.:24:37.

very issue, that is Scotland's Government at the present time. And

:24:38.:24:42.

Scotland's Government intends to make a proposal a to the Scottish

:24:43.:24:44.

Parliament and the Parliament is likely to vote for this. This is

:24:45.:24:48.

much more important than opinion polls. Except your party used to

:24:49.:24:54.

talk about opinion polls. You used to say, several leading SNP members

:24:55.:25:01.

said to me, we could haven't a second referendum until there was a

:25:02.:25:07.

clear 60/40 majority in the polls for having one. That is not me

:25:08.:25:11.

saying that, maybe not you, but that used to be what you argued. I'm

:25:12.:25:15.

saying now there is no evidence that is the case so far? No, there is

:25:16.:25:21.

evidence that people faced with a prospect of Scotland being taken out

:25:22.:25:25.

of the the European Union against the will of people here and it has

:25:26.:25:32.

not been mentioned but 62% of voters in Scotland voted to remain in the

:25:33.:25:39.

EU, in these circumstances and it was in SNP manifesto, the Scottish

:25:40.:25:44.

government could proceed with people to choose. You say you understand

:25:45.:25:49.

and then you question it. No, I ask a different matter and you keep

:25:50.:25:53.

answering a question that I'm not asking. So I think we will both quit

:25:54.:25:58.

while we are not ahead. We had better leave it there. Thank you

:25:59.:26:03.

very much. Where is this going to go? At the moment, Theresa May has

:26:04.:26:09.

managed to rearm the SNP. Who actually have been facing problems

:26:10.:26:14.

domestically with how they have been administering the government of

:26:15.:26:17.

Scotland. What is the evidence of that. There is no signs in the poll

:26:18.:26:22.

Naas Brexit has been a O'O'-- that Brexit has been a game-changer in

:26:23.:26:27.

Scotland. The demand for a second referendum and how they may vote,

:26:28.:26:31.

Brexit has not moved the dial on that. You can't deny them their

:26:32.:26:35.

excuse about it having materially changed. There is no question about

:26:36.:26:41.

that. That is for if SNP. What I'm saying, there is a lot of focus

:26:42.:26:45.

group work being done in Scotland and what they are finding that is

:26:46.:26:50.

the prospect of endless Tory governments in Westminster, that

:26:51.:26:55.

they don't like. That is a worry. But Brexit, single market, customs,

:26:56.:26:58.

union, none of that has moved the dial. But this is a fantastic

:26:59.:27:04.

tactical move for the SNP to distract attention back on to the

:27:05.:27:07.

whole issue of process about a second referendum. Because they can

:27:08.:27:11.

portray the London government blocking the will of the Scottish

:27:12.:27:16.

people and just... That is something that plays very well for them. I

:27:17.:27:19.

think that the thing about the SNP is they're good at strategy, but

:27:20.:27:29.

they're better attack ticks. And -- better at tactics. That will help

:27:30.:27:38.

them in their eventual goal. The Prime Minister has been addressing

:27:39.:27:42.

the issue in Scotland. This is what she said to the Conservative spring

:27:43.:27:45.

conference. We have seen that tunnel vision on display again this week.

:27:46.:27:51.

The SNP argue that we should break up the UK, because we are leaving

:27:52.:27:56.

the EU. But three years ago, they campaigned for a result that would

:27:57.:28:00.

have taken Scotland out of the EU altogether. They're happy to see

:28:01.:28:05.

power rest in Brussels, but if those powers come back to London, they

:28:06.:28:08.

want them give on the Edinburgh to try and give them back to Brussels.

:28:09.:28:19.

And the Conservative MSP, Murdo Fraser, joins

:28:20.:28:21.

The SNP put into Nair manifesto on which they won to form a government,

:28:22.:28:29.

if there was a material change there should be a second referendum, there

:28:30.:28:33.

has been a material change, so they're within Nair rights to call a

:28:34.:28:38.

second referendum? Well of course the SNP don't have a majority in the

:28:39.:28:43.

Scottish Parliament. They went into the Scottish Parliament election

:28:44.:28:46.

with a majority and they lost a majority on that manifesto you

:28:47.:28:51.

mentioned. Of course, we had a vote in 2014, it is not even three years.

:28:52.:28:55.

There has been a material change. We had a high turn out. Let's remember

:28:56.:29:01.

in 2014 we knew there was an EU referendum in prospect and that was

:29:02.:29:05.

happening. It was mentioned in the SNP's White Paper. But if we accept

:29:06.:29:08.

the material change argument, the SNP do not have a majority in the

:29:09.:29:15.

Scottish Parliament, they lost their majority based upon their manifesto.

:29:16.:29:18.

There is a majority in the Scottish Parliament for a second referendum.

:29:19.:29:22.

You say they don't have a majority, the whole system was designed not to

:29:23.:29:27.

give anybody a majority, but for a period 2 SNP did. And with the Green

:29:28.:29:33.

Party there is a majority in the Scottish Parliament, they're a

:29:34.:29:35.

proindependence party and they talked of a change with Brexit. The

:29:36.:29:41.

Scottish Parliament is within its right to call for another

:29:42.:29:48.

referendum. Is it not? The six Green members were not elected on that

:29:49.:29:51.

basis. Their manifesto said they would have to get a million

:29:52.:29:56.

signatures on a petition before they could support another referendum.

:29:57.:29:59.

But there is another point about the Scottish Parliament. I couldn't but

:30:00.:30:04.

smile listening to your interview with Angus Robertson, who doesn't

:30:05.:30:08.

sit in the Scottish Parliament, but you think might pay attention as

:30:09.:30:14.

deputy leader of the SNP, the SNP Government in Edinburgh routinely

:30:15.:30:18.

ignore and dismiss votes in the the Scottish Parliament when they lose

:30:19.:30:22.

them. Just last week they lost a vote on education. Two weeks ago

:30:23.:30:28.

they lost two votes. What happens to the Scottish Government when nay

:30:29.:30:31.

lose votes in Scottish Parliament in they ignore them and now they have

:30:32.:30:38.

the arrogance to say that the UK Government has to listen to votes in

:30:39.:30:43.

the Scottish Parliament when they ignore votes. You couldn't make it

:30:44.:30:50.

up. Angus Robert Robertson seems to be ignorant. Which part of SNP

:30:51.:30:54.

manifesto don't you understand, we believe the Scottish Parliament

:30:55.:30:57.

should have the right to hold another referendum if there is a

:30:58.:31:01.

material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014. Such as

:31:02.:31:07.

Scotland being taken out of the EU agains our will.

:31:08.:31:14.

That is exactly what has happened! So why are you complaining... I know

:31:15.:31:21.

your party has had problems delivering on your manifesto

:31:22.:31:26.

recently, but they are delivering on what they promised. That is a

:31:27.:31:31.

manifesto on which they fought an election which they came into with a

:31:32.:31:33.

parliamentary majority and came out having lost. They got 46.5% of the

:31:34.:31:40.

vote, Mr Fraser. But they did not get a majority. People in Scotland,

:31:41.:31:46.

and our votes more than double, our seats more than doubled in the

:31:47.:31:49.

Scottish Parliament. People in Scotland do not want another

:31:50.:31:53.

referendum. It is a distraction from the important business that the SNP

:31:54.:31:57.

need to be getting on with, sorting out the mess they made on the

:31:58.:32:02.

Scottish economy, education, health service and justice system. That's

:32:03.:32:05.

what they need to be doing. People will not take kindly to this

:32:06.:32:09.

distraction. We will see how opinion goes on that stand-off over that. It

:32:10.:32:14.

will be interesting to see whether the Scottish people Paul Kerr at the

:32:15.:32:17.

idea of Westminster stubbing it or whether they don't care as much as

:32:18.:32:21.

Mr Robinson would have us believe. But what is the Tory position? Is it

:32:22.:32:26.

the timing of a second referendum that you object to or the very

:32:27.:32:30.

principle of one? What Theresa May made clear yesterday that we're not

:32:31.:32:39.

saying "No, not ever? -- win at saying" no, not ever" we're just

:32:40.:32:48.

saying "No, not now". Between now and never, when? What we have to do

:32:49.:32:55.

is have an informed decision. The people of Scotland must be able to

:32:56.:32:58.

make an informed choice about their future. That means two things.

:32:59.:33:04.

That's called a referendum. Understanding what Brexit means and

:33:05.:33:08.

the consequences of it for Scotland. And also understanding what the

:33:09.:33:11.

alternative would be. The SNP are claiming they would want a

:33:12.:33:15.

referendum because they are being taken out of the EU against our

:33:16.:33:20.

will, and yet in the last few days it has become entirely unclear what

:33:21.:33:26.

the SNP position on EU membership is. There's suggesting that Scotland

:33:27.:33:37.

would not necessarily get back into the EU. You're telling me about SNP

:33:38.:33:44.

policy. I know where it isn't. I'm asking you what your policy is,

:33:45.:33:50.

would you agree to a referendum once the Brexit deal is done and dusted?

:33:51.:33:56.

What the Prime Minister said yesterday was that the test would be

:33:57.:34:00.

that we would see the consequences of Brexit and the impact of that and

:34:01.:34:04.

we would see what the SNP alternative would be and if there

:34:05.:34:08.

was a demonstrable demand from the Scottish people for another

:34:09.:34:11.

referendum, then at that time we would consider it, but we're not

:34:12.:34:16.

going to do it before those tests. OK, Mr Fraser, thank you very much

:34:17.:34:17.

for joining us. Coming up in a moment

:34:18.:34:23.

it's our regular look at what's been For now it's time to say

:34:24.:34:28.

goodbye to Miranda Green. So for the next half an hour, we're

:34:29.:34:31.

going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing what's next

:34:32.:34:41.

for Brexit and the rest of the EU. First though here's our guide

:34:42.:34:44.

to the latest from Europe - The Dutch Prime Minister Mark Wotte

:34:45.:34:56.

celebrated victory in his country's election, easily defeating the

:34:57.:35:02.

anti-immigration right wing party of Geert Wilders. Commission President

:35:03.:35:08.

Jean-Claude Juncker said he was scandalised. We would never accept

:35:09.:35:16.

the comparison between the Nazis and the now governments. The European

:35:17.:35:19.

Court of Human Rights ruled that Hungary unlawfully kept two migrants

:35:20.:35:28.

in a transit zone. It could... The Spanish Prime Minister says an

:35:29.:35:30.

independent Scotland would have to join the back of the queue for EU

:35:31.:35:36.

membership. Spain's membership is worried about the separatist

:35:37.:35:41.

movement in Catalonia. The EU's highest court has ruled that

:35:42.:35:44.

companies who ban staff from -- kanban staff who wear specific

:35:45.:35:52.

religious symbols but it must be based on the company requiring all

:35:53.:35:54.

employees to dress neutrally. And with us for the next 30

:35:55.:36:01.

minutes I've been joined by the UKIP MEP Gerard Batten

:36:02.:36:04.

and the Conservative Let's take a look at

:36:05.:36:06.

the European Court of Justice's What do you make of it? It seems to

:36:07.:36:13.

break the ECJ into line with where the UK is, as far as I can work out.

:36:14.:36:18.

You can't discriminate against one culture or religion, you must be

:36:19.:36:25.

fair to all. Theresa May made it clear at PMQs that she disapproved

:36:26.:36:28.

of the ruling, she said women had the right to choose how they dress.

:36:29.:36:33.

That's not quite what the ECJ is saying. She's saying Barbu but if

:36:34.:36:40.

there is to be some restriction on the front facing element then all

:36:41.:36:47.

should be treated equally and fairly. First of all, we shouldn't

:36:48.:36:50.

be under the restriction of the ECJ... I got that bit! Burst of all

:36:51.:36:56.

it's about commission today company have a dress code? That's not an

:36:57.:37:00.

unreasonable thing. This judgment is fraught with difficulties because it

:37:01.:37:03.

would also mean that people can't wear Jewish skull caps, Christian

:37:04.:37:10.

crosses... It is not about having a policy on headscarves but a policy

:37:11.:37:13.

on face coverings so that you have the same rule for everybody whether

:37:14.:37:17.

in a public building or private. Is it right, do you think, that seeks

:37:18.:37:21.

would not be able to wear turbans at work? -- that Sikhs would not be

:37:22.:37:29.

able to wear turbans at work? That's not what it's doing at all. It's

:37:30.:37:35.

giving companies the chance to treat all its employees fairly. If it said

:37:36.:37:40.

we wanted their religious symbols at all that any kind, would the Sikhs

:37:41.:37:45.

then be in trouble with the turban? Because as I understand it, that is

:37:46.:37:51.

a religious manifestation for Sikhs. It would have to justify why it was

:37:52.:37:55.

making that statement and if it they couldn't justify it, they would not

:37:56.:38:01.

be allowed to. Interesting development, we will see what the

:38:02.:38:07.

national law courts make of it. They were saying that the details needed

:38:08.:38:10.

to be sorted out at a national and local level.

:38:11.:38:12.

Now, yesterday the bill enabling Theresa May to trigger Article 50

:38:13.:38:15.

and start the negotiations which will end with Britian's exit

:38:16.:38:17.

Downing Street has said that the Prime Minister will trigger

:38:18.:38:21.

Article 50 at the end of the month - so what will happen next?

:38:22.:38:24.

European Council president Donald Tusk has said

:38:25.:38:28.

he would need just 48 hours to respond to the UK with "draft

:38:29.:38:31.

Tusk has also said an extraordinary meeting of the EU27 -

:38:32.:38:42.

that's all the EU countries minus the UK -

:38:43.:38:44.

will take place in April, or possibly May, where European

:38:45.:38:47.

leaders will decide a guideline for the negotiating mandate.

:38:48.:38:50.

Only once the mandate is agreed will the official

:38:51.:38:53.

negotiations begin, probably sometime in June or July,

:38:54.:38:56.

with citizen's rights and the Brexit divorce bill likely

:38:57.:38:58.

Both sides need to reach an agreement by October 2018,

:38:59.:39:12.

leaving enough time for the UK and European Parliaments to sign off

:39:13.:39:16.

European talks often go way beyond the deadline.

:39:17.:39:23.

If there's no agreement, there is a chance that the UK

:39:24.:39:34.

could "crash out of the EU on world trade terms."

:39:35.:39:36.

Brexit Secretary David Davis said on Wednesday that the UK

:39:37.:39:39.

Government had not assessed the economic impact of such

:39:40.:39:41.

Donald Tusk addressed the issue when he addressed

:39:42.:39:44.

to the European Parliament on Wednesday.

:39:45.:39:47.

I want to be clear that a no-deal scenario would be bad for everyone.

:39:48.:39:52.

Because it would leave a number of issues unresolved.

:39:53.:40:04.

We will not be intimidated by threats and I can

:40:05.:40:07.

assure you they simply will not work.

:40:08.:40:11.

Our goal is to have a smooth devolve and a good framework for the

:40:12.:40:15.

future and it is good to know that Prime Minister Theresa May shares

:40:16.:40:18.

Our use surprised, or does it matter, that the government, given

:40:19.:40:28.

that it said this could be an option, that no deal would be better

:40:29.:40:33.

than a bad deal, has not had a game plan for what no deal would mean? --

:40:34.:40:39.

are you surprised? Yes, considering we've done it, it's surprisingly

:40:40.:40:43.

haven't done it. You talked about WTO terms and the big issue here is

:40:44.:40:47.

about trade. There's no way you're going to unravel the tens of

:40:48.:40:51.

thousands of EU laws before you leave but on trade they need to made

:40:52.:40:55.

a simple offer, they need to have continued tariff free trade with

:40:56.:41:03.

freedoms on services and capital but they cannot have people. We could

:41:04.:41:09.

offer them that option and then it would be in their interests to do

:41:10.:41:13.

it, because this would be a decision of the Council, by the way, when

:41:14.:41:18.

they do this, and Angela Merkel would have to answer for the German

:41:19.:41:23.

car-makers to say why they are not accepting a deal to do this but

:41:24.:41:27.

would prefer the external tariffs brought up. It is a deal that could

:41:28.:41:31.

be done in an afternoon. That is the principal but it doesn't tell us

:41:32.:41:34.

what the economic consequences would be. Are you surprised the government

:41:35.:41:39.

has not done this yet all is economic modelling so discredited

:41:40.:41:42.

after what we said before the referendum vote that it is not worth

:41:43.:41:48.

the candle? I think we are focused on the positive and constructive

:41:49.:41:55.

case. Right now we must focus on getting the best deal, it will be a

:41:56.:42:01.

multitrack approach to these negotiations. Some things are

:42:02.:42:08.

straightforward. Michelle is going to head up the negotiations on the

:42:09.:42:13.

EU side and he is saying that we need to agree the divorce build a

:42:14.:42:17.

four-week talk about the post Brexit relationship between the EU and the

:42:18.:42:22.

UK. The British government, particularly David Davis, are saying

:42:23.:42:26.

we need to talk about both at the same time. That could be a

:42:27.:42:30.

deal-breaker if the Europeans don't agree to that. The whole thing is

:42:31.:42:32.

fraught with difficulties because there is a report being prepared by

:42:33.:42:41.

the economic and monetary committee. They want the ECJ to have continued

:42:42.:42:46.

control of jurisdiction, they want to control their tax policy. The man

:42:47.:42:53.

in charge of negotiations is Mr Hofstadt, who is the most

:42:54.:42:58.

enthusiastic integrationist you will find. He's not in charge! He is a

:42:59.:43:06.

senior observer, is he not? On the half of the parliament. On the heart

:43:07.:43:10.

of the parliament. He will have no negotiating role whatsoever. The

:43:11.:43:14.

lines described here, every single one of those committees is doing

:43:15.:43:18.

that. They want the hardest deal imaginable. The fairest one I've

:43:19.:43:22.

read is from the Constitutional affairs committee which was actually

:43:23.:43:25.

quite a fair exposition of what we are and what could happen. For

:43:26.:43:29.

example, one of the things they say is that we are under no legal

:43:30.:43:33.

obligation to pay any money into the budget. That was the House of Lords

:43:34.:43:37.

that said that. Your other committee has said that now? The

:43:38.:43:39.

constitutional affairs committee of the European Parliament. All right.

:43:40.:43:44.

Do you think it would be a deal-breaker if the European stick

:43:45.:43:47.

to the current plan, we need to agree the divorce bill before we

:43:48.:43:51.

talk about our future relationship? As far as I'm concerned, the first

:43:52.:43:59.

thing... The bottom line, if it is indeed a deal-breaker, the problem

:44:00.:44:02.

is for the EU, they need the money from the UK. Money has become a

:44:03.:44:09.

bigger issue now, hasn't it? The continuing programmes right now,

:44:10.:44:12.

French farmers will need money, where is it going to come from if

:44:13.:44:16.

not from the UK in that period? The last thing they need is the UK

:44:17.:44:21.

walking away from the table. Let me ask you just briefly, do you buy

:44:22.:44:26.

this rather sanguine approach that we will have, in effect, the shape

:44:27.:44:32.

of the deal by the autumn of 2018. In all the summits I've covered in

:44:33.:44:39.

European Union negotiations, they always go down to the wire? I think

:44:40.:44:43.

we've already got it in a way because Mrs May is not going to

:44:44.:44:46.

reveal a single EU law or amend one before we leave and she is going to

:44:47.:44:51.

incorporate the inside body of the EU lock into British law, so what

:44:52.:44:54.

changes... Do you think it could be done by the autumn of 2018? I'm just

:44:55.:45:00.

talking about the timetable. Do you think it could all be done? They

:45:01.:45:05.

certainly can't renegotiate every EU law by then. Do you think it could

:45:06.:45:08.

be done to give time for the Scottish parliament, the British

:45:09.:45:11.

Parliament, everyone else to have a say? I believe the divorce could be

:45:12.:45:15.

done within that period but the other element is the trade deal

:45:16.:45:18.

itself and that could take longer. I think there's no point pretending

:45:19.:45:22.

otherwise. The bottom line is the divorce structure and settlement

:45:23.:45:24.

cover these elements can be mapped out in a two-year period. The main

:45:25.:45:28.

thing is the issues I've just described. Very well, we will see,

:45:29.:45:30.

all to play for. What is the future

:45:31.:45:34.

direction of Europe? Following the shock of Brexit

:45:35.:45:35.

and the election of the openly hostile Donald Trump,

:45:36.:45:39.

will the EU come closer together, or is the path forward one

:45:40.:45:41.

of looser cooperation? MEPs in Strasbourg have been looking

:45:42.:45:44.

at the five options laid out by the Commission in a White Paper,

:45:45.:45:46.

as Dan Johnson has been finding out. Rome, 60 years ago when Europe's

:45:47.:46:00.

future was first mapped out. Many of the original principles still guide

:46:01.:46:05.

it, but this week's Europe's leaders started discussing a new direction.

:46:06.:46:12.

The idea of a multispeed Europe will be one option. I understand the

:46:13.:46:21.

reason for this. Some expect systemic changes that would loosen

:46:22.:46:24.

ties and strengthen the role of nations. But which way to turn, how

:46:25.:46:30.

best to get an agreement and are they serious about change? The

:46:31.:46:34.

Brexit decision has give an push to go into this direction and finally

:46:35.:46:38.

it has already reached the commission and you know some of the

:46:39.:46:42.

other political groups in this House that we do need to reconsider some

:46:43.:46:45.

of the things and some of the ways we have done politics in the past in

:46:46.:46:53.

the European Union. Five options to be considered. Carrying on. Cutting

:46:54.:46:57.

back to nothing but the single market. Already effectively ruled

:46:58.:47:03.

out by the commission. Those who want to do more would allow closer

:47:04.:47:07.

integration for some while others moved at their own pace. They could

:47:08.:47:14.

all do less more efficiently. Or they could agree on doing much more

:47:15.:47:19.

together. The leader of Parliament's second biggest group know what is he

:47:20.:47:26.

wants. The best scenario is the fifth scenario, the possibility to

:47:27.:47:35.

go home, to go forward together, for more European integration, the

:47:36.:47:42.

majority of the people understand that we need a strong, more united

:47:43.:47:49.

Europe. It happens he was previously a forensic pathologist, so that

:47:50.:47:53.

begged an of course question. I don't think that Europe is a dead

:47:54.:47:58.

body! Thank you doctor. There does seem to be an acceptance that Europe

:47:59.:48:06.

has lost its way. So now there is a pause to look for a new way forward.

:48:07.:48:12.

But everyone has to agree on the best route. That I hope to do that

:48:13.:48:16.

by the end of the year. But that could be a tough ask. . Some euro

:48:17.:48:30.

sceptics don't like either option. They are one option with different

:48:31.:48:34.

degrees. Let's exclude the first one, that is keep everything like it

:48:35.:48:38.

is and in fact we are seeing that is not working. The second one is just

:48:39.:48:43.

focus on the the market. But the commission say we do not want is in.

:48:44.:48:47.

The other that he are three different degrees of integration.

:48:48.:48:51.

But the point is integration for what and to do what? Is this the way

:48:52.:48:59.

to get people to love Europe again? I think there needs to be a bottom

:49:00.:49:06.

up European movement. I think we as pro-Europeans need to go to streets

:49:07.:49:10.

and say we want this, because in some many countries there has been a

:49:11.:49:15.

narrative of the EU being something of the elite, being top down and we

:49:16.:49:20.

need to show no this is not true. The challenge is to gather new

:49:21.:49:24.

momentum and get back on track. All aboard then. Even if we don't know

:49:25.:49:31.

exactly where we are heading! All except the UK of course, Britain

:49:32.:49:36.

won't be along for the ride. You would have thought that the prospect

:49:37.:49:42.

of Britain leaving the EU, whip is a huge historic event, whether you're

:49:43.:49:47.

for or against, would have concentrated to minds to say where

:49:48.:49:52.

do we go from here without Britain as the EU 27? But it seeps to me --

:49:53.:49:58.

seems to me they're as divided as ever, is that right? Yes, everyone

:49:59.:50:06.

is pointing in a different direction and saying is forward. Jean-Claude

:50:07.:50:11.

Juncker had the trick of multispeed Europe. That seems to be getting

:50:12.:50:18.

cress dense. Credence. People like that if they're in the fast lane. In

:50:19.:50:24.

the slow lane is the east European and the Nordics. So those in the

:50:25.:50:30.

fast track see why it is important, those on the slow track wonder how

:50:31.:50:34.

they get into the fast track. The elections, we have had the Dutch

:50:35.:50:37.

election and that has produced a result which I suspect will take a

:50:38.:50:41.

long while to form a government in Holland. We have the French and the

:50:42.:50:48.

Germans coming up. A France run by Mr Macron and a Germany run by Mr

:50:49.:51:05.

Schultes would be done from one run by marine Le Pen. Yes the most

:51:06.:51:11.

sensible option would be No 2, to concentrate on tariff-free trade.

:51:12.:51:15.

And then maybe you would have wanted to stay in. We want the trade but

:51:16.:51:20.

not the rest of it. But they're not going do that. ?" No. Junk.

:51:21.:51:30.

Jean-Claude Juncker said he would knot say, but we think it is ongs

:51:31.:51:39.

five. It is option five. Emmanuel Macron is a strong European, Mr

:51:40.:51:46.

Shultz is a strong European too, in Italy, four out of five of the

:51:47.:51:50.

biggest parties are against euro. They haven't as yet had an election,

:51:51.:51:55.

but they might. We don't know. So the east Europeans are a whole

:51:56.:52:00.

different ball game too. It is quite difficult to see the way forward

:52:01.:52:04.

with all these differences of opinion? The only thing that seems

:52:05.:52:12.

to bring Europe together is Brexit. A lot of populist movements may not

:52:13.:52:18.

win elections, but they're dragging the debate to their part. As they

:52:19.:52:25.

did in Holland. So the complexion of Europe will change even if nay don't

:52:26.:52:32.

win. Whatever path they take and it won't be our decision, but whatever

:52:33.:52:37.

path Europe does take, is it in our interests that give than it is still

:52:38.:52:41.

our biggest market by a long whey, is it in our interest that it should

:52:42.:52:48.

succeed? It is in our interest it does not go into economic melt down.

:52:49.:52:53.

But there is a tremendous disaster waiting which is what happens to the

:52:54.:52:58.

euro. In the report of Jean-Claude Juncker, it said we have to do

:52:59.:53:01.

something about the rates of youth unemployment. In the second

:53:02.:53:07.

paragraph it said we must deepen union. But one of the causes of

:53:08.:53:13.

problem is the European single currency. He is trying to make it

:53:14.:53:22.

work with the proper banking union. The difficulty with that given the

:53:23.:53:27.

Dutch election is that reforming the urp will be more difficult than

:53:28.:53:32.

ever. -- euro. There is not a common prison, so there is no at common

:53:33.:53:39.

solution. -- not a common problem. The 2019 European elections could

:53:40.:53:44.

see more parties like Ukip being elected. You will be leaving space

:53:45.:53:47.

probably. Divorces can be messy

:53:48.:53:50.

and if you fall out in a big way - over the money for example -

:53:51.:53:54.

it can make it very difficult So how can a messy Brexit

:53:55.:53:56.

breakup be avoided? Well, our Adam's been to the former

:53:57.:54:00.

Czechoslovakia to look at what can be learned

:54:01.:54:02.

from the "velvet divorce." Picture the scene,

:54:03.:54:14.

it is New Year's Eve 1992 and this square

:54:15.:54:16.

is packed with people celebrating the

:54:17.:54:19.

end of Czechoslovakia and the birth of an independent Slovak Republic

:54:20.:54:23.

in a process known as the Velvet Divorce, so-called, because not

:54:24.:54:27.

a single shot was fired. In Bratislava Castle,

:54:28.:54:33.

evidence of where it all started - handmade signs

:54:34.:54:36.

from the protests that But the public weren't

:54:37.:54:38.

as involved in The main contender here

:54:39.:54:45.

is the leader is the Slovak Nationalist Vladimir Meciar

:54:46.:54:50.

was the victor in elections in 1992. Over an intense few weeks,

:54:51.:54:58.

he negotiated a split with his counterpart in the richer

:54:59.:55:01.

Czech half of the country. There was no referendum

:55:02.:55:04.

and the divorce followed a simple There are ten million Czechs,

:55:05.:55:06.

five million Slovaks, plus or minus, property was divided

:55:07.:55:12.

two to one, military was divided similar way,

:55:13.:55:16.

diplomatic service and our embassies were divided, so very peacefully

:55:17.:55:21.

and we didn't have any border disputes, because we always had

:55:22.:55:24.

border between Czech and Slovak Republics, so I think

:55:25.:55:28.

there were no major fights. Since then, Slovakia has joined

:55:29.:55:36.

the EU and flourished. Iveta Radicova is a member

:55:37.:55:38.

of the former Prime She says the split was undemocratic,

:55:39.:55:44.

left her country briefly bankrupt Some things were really solved ten

:55:45.:55:50.

years later, not immediately. All institutions of

:55:51.:55:57.

controlling mechanisms. For the the next generation

:55:58.:56:15.

of politicians like the Economy Minister,

:56:16.:56:22.

it is all ancient history. I think we are a bit

:56:23.:56:24.

Czech Republic in best partnership with other

:56:25.:56:30.

neighbour countries. I'm not the only

:56:31.:56:35.

visitor from the UK. The Brexit Secretary

:56:36.:56:40.

David Davies was in Could he have spied any

:56:41.:56:42.

lessons for the UK's upcoming I don't think ill it

:56:43.:56:46.

will be over in one or The key is to maintain good

:56:47.:56:54.

will and maintain good relationship where you are,

:56:55.:56:58.

not playing game and tricks. It is a triumph of

:56:59.:57:04.

nationalism and not much else as the two republics

:57:05.:57:06.

go their separate ways. Watching another famous

:57:07.:57:10.

correspondent who stood on this spot, the lesson I have learned

:57:11.:57:11.

is separating seems massive at the time, but living apart lasts

:57:12.:57:15.

for much, much longer. During the Scottish referendum I did

:57:16.:57:32.

a documentary about breaking up and looked at the velvet divorce.

:57:33.:57:37.

Although it involved two small country, there were score o's of

:57:38.:57:42.

treaties. The lesson is if you made the decision to go, go and sort the

:57:43.:57:48.

details out. Try and sort out the details before you won't end up

:57:49.:57:54.

going. But the British government's position, it may not be acceptable

:57:55.:57:59.

to the British people, before we go, we want to see what it means. There

:58:00.:58:03.

are some things we can untangle quickly, other involve us building

:58:04.:58:08.

something afresh. So we have a new relationship and a severing of the

:58:09.:58:14.

old. We can do that if we both enter the discussion in the right frame of

:58:15.:58:18.

mind kneeing harming one side -- knowing harming one side harms the

:58:19.:58:26.

other. Can you do it without there being a victor? The rest can be

:58:27.:58:32.

sorted it won't be difficult. The immigration is the next biggest

:58:33.:58:37.

problem. It can be done, but you have to be focussed on the outcome

:58:38.:58:41.

and that is a good deal for both sides that. What is the people of

:58:42.:58:43.

Europe want. We shall see. Thanks to Gerard Batten

:58:44.:58:48.

and Ian Duncan. I hope you join me for the next one.

:58:49.:58:57.

Goodbye.

:58:58.:59:00.

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