20/03/2017 Daily Politics


20/03/2017

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Theresa May has named the date - she says she'll trigger Article 50

:00:41.:00:43.

That will fire the starting gun on our departure

:00:44.:00:48.

from the EU and begin two years of intense negotiation.

:00:49.:00:51.

Here's what else is coming in today's programme...

:00:52.:00:55.

Labour's Deputy Leader Tom Watson accuses left-wing supporters

:00:56.:00:58.

of Jeremy Corbyn of plotting to seize control of the party.

:00:59.:01:05.

Mr Watson says the grassroots Momentum group is in cahoots

:01:06.:01:07.

George Osborne insists he can still be an MP and edit

:01:08.:01:15.

But the Ethics watchdog says rules on MPs' second

:01:16.:01:25.

Should people with learning disabilities be allowed to work

:01:26.:01:28.

The businesswoman and campaigner Rosa Monckton says the rules

:01:29.:01:32.

are an obstacle to some, rather than a protection.

:01:33.:01:35.

And are the Cornish at risk of ethnic oppression?

:01:36.:01:39.

The Council of Europe, which upholds human rights,

:01:40.:01:41.

says the Government needs to do more for Cornish people.

:01:42.:01:51.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, two giants of the Westminster

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scene - former Cabinet minister Eric Pickles,

:01:57.:01:57.

and the former Labour minister Caroline Flint.

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Some breaking news in the last hour - the Government has announced

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that it will trigger Article 50 on Wednesday 29th March.

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Let's talk to our political correspondent Vicki Young.

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So what is going to happen? It seems a long time since the

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referendum in June but Theresa May always said she wanted to trigger

:02:27.:02:29.

article 50 by the end of March and she will do that. After Prime

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Minister's Questions next week she will make a statement to the House

:02:33.:02:36.

of Commons and then formally send a letter to Donald Tusk, the president

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of the European Council. That is what happens, of course many other

:02:41.:02:44.

questions then about the negotiations themselves. It means

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there is a two-year clock ticking before the UK leads the European

:02:49.:02:52.

Union, and in that time both sides will try

:02:53.:03:12.

to get a deal. What it involves, of course, is open to some speculation,

:03:13.:03:16.

but I think at this point Theresa May getting her way, fulfilling the

:03:17.:03:18.

timetable she said she would, despite some bumps along the way,

:03:19.:03:21.

the Supreme Court of course made the Government bring dinner bill, it

:03:22.:03:23.

went through Parliament, changes were made by the laws, but in the

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end she will get her way and trigger Article 50 by next Wednesday.

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You mentioned the letter she will send to the European Union, take us

:03:29.:03:31.

through a bit of a process that will happen on the European Union site?

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We have had some words dropped saying the commission is ready to

:03:34.:03:35.

begin the Brexit negotiations, because both sides want to say they

:03:36.:03:38.

are in control. Absolutely, until now Theresa May

:03:39.:03:40.

has been in charge of the timetable but as soon as she sends a letter,

:03:41.:03:44.

in many ways attention turns to Brussels. Donald Tusk has said they

:03:45.:03:48.

may be ready to give some response to the letter within 48 hours or so,

:03:49.:03:54.

it will be the European Union Council who gives the negotiating

:03:55.:03:59.

mandate to the commission to set forward their priorities, so we will

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get to know more about the priorities on both sides. Both sides

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have talked about things like the right of UK citizens -- EU citizens

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in the UK, Brits living abroad, but there are things they do not agree

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on, the so-called divorce bill, for example, will Theresa May be handed

:04:16.:04:20.

a huge bill, saying this is what the UK owes and unless you agree to pay

:04:21.:04:24.

it we will not have talks at all? Will they discuss the extricating of

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the relationship alongside the future relationship, the trade deal,

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for example? All these questions unanswered but the 27 other European

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countries will have a summit in the next few weeks then negotiations can

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start, although people pointing to things like the French and German

:04:42.:04:45.

elections which may delay it, but the timetable is not that long. Two

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years sounds like a long time but the person in charge of negotiations

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for the EU has already said he thinks the re-met needs to be made

:04:55.:04:58.

by October 2000 and 18. Eric Pickles, this is a big moment

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whether you were in favour of it or not. Your reaction to the fact that

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a date has now been set? It is a massive moment, I'm pleased we are

:05:09.:05:12.

getting on with it, it is right that they act was unamended, but if we

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know anything about our friends in the European Union it is a five to

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midnight organisation so I'm not as confident that everything will be

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sorted out so quickly. Do you agree that it could be one of those

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marathon, last days of the negotiation timetable in two years'

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time, it will be a marathon talks between all sides before a deal is

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done? My view is that over the next two years there will have to be a

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lot of work done and that the excitement starts in some respects,

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the detail, but I think at the end of the two years we are only likely

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to have the headlines. I think after those two years, there will be maybe

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five, six years of transitioning into every area of policy, which is

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why even Theresa May before now has mentioned a transition period. I

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think you are right, there will be a lot left until five to midnight but

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don't think it will be over in two years' time, they will be discussion

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for years to come. In terms of a reflection on the Labour side,

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should there have been more opposition? I feel the Labour

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position is the right one, it happens to be the one that I

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believe, but we have to accept the result of the referendum. At the

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same time I believe our position was right during the discussion of the

:06:25.:06:27.

bill to raise concerns about the fact that EU nationals working here,

:06:28.:06:31.

paying their taxes, do not know what will happen to them, and I think now

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that we have got a date next week for the letter to be sent, I hope

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Theresa May will stand by her word, which is to give that particular

:06:39.:06:43.

area of policy priority. Do you agree

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that we are unlikely to get beyond what Caroline calls the headline,

:06:54.:06:57.

the divorce settlement, and in terms of having a free-trade deal there

:06:58.:06:59.

will have to be interim proposals so that there is no cliff edge? I think

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all the things your reporter talked about, the eventual bill, the

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working out of a trade agreement, the working out about the new

:07:05.:07:07.

relationship, if it will be meaningful, has to take place

:07:08.:07:11.

roughly at the same time because all three are interrelated. But I do

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think it is going to be very complex and I do think it is going to take

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an awful lot of time, but I do think that we might not see people fully

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engaged in this on the continent within the European Union until well

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into the autumn of this year. We will leave it there, but that is the

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date that will fire the starting gun on the two years of negotiations of

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Britain leaving the EU, that is March the 29th, that is next

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Wednesday, a week on Wednesday is when Theresa May, the Prime

:07:41.:07:42.

Minister, will trigger Article 50. Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson,

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says left-wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn are involved

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in a plot which could destroy Mr Watson was reacting to claims

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that the grassroots Momentum group is planning a takeover in a secret

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deal with the boss of the Unite Yesterday's Observer newspaper

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published a recording of the chair of Momentum,

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Jon Lansman, in which he claimed that Unite would affiliate

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to Momentum if Len McCluskey Let's have a listen

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to that recording. Tom Watson has been touring

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the studios this morning. He says the intentions

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of Momentum are clear. I think Jon Lansman's secret plan

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threatens the very electoral existence of the Labour Party,

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which is why I'm speaking out, We're facing an early general

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election, and yet you've got a very powerful faction leader saying

:08:57.:09:00.

we need to take control That's not going to get us

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anywhere on the doorsteps, We're joined now by Momentum

:09:03.:09:06.

activist Rachel Godfrey-Wood. You have heard Tom Watson's words,

:09:07.:09:19.

that there is a secret plot to take over the Labour Party. What did you

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say as a member of Momentum? I find this pretty disappointing, all

:09:27.:09:29.

Momentum has done since we came into existence is to encourage new Labour

:09:30.:09:33.

members to be as active as possible in the party and build up a party

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capable of providing a general alternative in this country, and it

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is disappointing when you get figures from the established Labour

:09:41.:09:48.

hierarchy basically talking about this total nonstory. You say it is a

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total nonstory but Tom Watson is claiming, and deep you listen to Jon

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Lansman of Momentum, he says Unite, a big union, will affiliate to

:09:58.:10:02.

Momentum and fully participate in Momentum as for the Communication

:10:03.:10:06.

Workers Union. Is that not going to happen? I have no knowledge

:10:07.:10:10.

whatsoever of any discussions, obviously we are a left-wing

:10:11.:10:13.

organisation, we want to work with trade unions because we are one of

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the most fundamentally unequal countries in the world... So you

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cannot rule it out? I think it is the wrong focus, trade unions are

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being under attack, we have the most repressive trade union laws in the

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country, people in those trade unions want to work with Momentum

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and to me that makes total sense and think it is disingenuous to portray

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that is there is something out of line about it. You say it would be

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logical for a union like Unite to affiliate its upward Momentum, this

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grassroots organisation within Labour. But why would Unite and the

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Communication Workers Union want to divert their political funds away

:10:57.:10:59.

from the Labour Party's organising for local and general election

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campaigns towards Momentum, which we know is aiming to fight within the

:11:04.:11:10.

Labour Party? Obviously it is up to trade unions within Unite to take

:11:11.:11:14.

these types of decisions, but I suspect there will be people who

:11:15.:11:18.

understand there is a relationship between defending the industrial

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interests of those workers and also a political struggle which means

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having a Labour Party which can genuinely fight for workers' rights,

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and unfortunately that is not what has existed in the past,

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particularly when people like Tom Watson had an awful lot of influence

:11:31.:11:36.

in the party. What have you got to be worried about? Isn't this just

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the case of a union affiliated itself to a grassroots movement in

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Labour that wants to fight on behalf of the workers? Can I just say Tom

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was elected at the same time as Jeremy Corbyn, so if Tom is an

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establishment figure then so is Jeremy. I think Jeremy and others

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will be concerned from what they have heard on the tape because what

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is being said by Jon Lansman goes totally against what he promised

:12:06.:12:09.

would happen within Momentum. It was promised that anybody who was not a

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Labour Party member would not be part of Momentum, and what is quite

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clear from that tape is Jon is saying, we are not going to get with

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people from Trotsky and other fringe parties in the country, and that

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goes against everything he promised Jeromy and others, and I have to say

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what he be reassured Len McCluskey about. The worrying thing is to have

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a movement like Momentum which has Labour Party members in it but also

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a ragbag of other people from different parties and different

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priorities and what our priority is, which is trying to win a general

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election, which again Jon Lansman I understand that is getting in the

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way of their planning, planning to do what? Basically to take over the

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Labour Party. This is the statement from Unite. They say, they make

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clear it is exclusively for our executive Council to determine which

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organisations we affiliate to, there are no plans for Unite to affiliate

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to Momentum and, for the record, the general secretary Len McCluskey have

:13:11.:13:14.

never met Jon Lansman. Is this a nonstory by Tom Watson? It is a

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capable Jon Lansman has said at a meeting and for me the most worrying

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aspect is that Jon Lansman and others in Momentum promised to

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change the organisation to be one in which only Labour Party members

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could be part. Rachel has heard the tape, Jon Lansman goes against

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everything he promised and that must be absolutely disappointing for Jon

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and the Jeromy and others who have supported Momentum. I am

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disappointed along with them. What do you say to claims? Momentum's

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rules are totally clear, non-Labour members will not have membership

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rights, they cannot vote in elections, they cannot hold key

:13:53.:13:57.

positions. People in local Momentum groups can campaign and take part in

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broad campaigns in which you might have people in other parties, that

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is up to them. But you heard the tape, he is saying, I'm not going to

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kick anybody out, we have a plan, the general election is getting in

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the way of our planning. That doesn't sound, to me, like

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someone who has first and foremost caught the interest of not just the

:14:20.:14:22.

Labour Party but the people we seek to represent. What is the plan Jon

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Lansman is talking about? I don't know, I don't think this is

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fundamentally about plots or plans, this is about a organisation that

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wants to bring people into politics, get them engaged, because that is

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the only way the Labour Party will re-establish itself as a genuine

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power. Also in the tape Jon Lansman said the group should take control

:14:41.:14:44.

of regional Labour Parties and change selection rules for MPs and

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councillors. The party, as it stands, is fundamentally

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unbalanced... So that is the plan? On the National executive council

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you have 30 odd people and only six are democratically elected by the

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members, that is not particularly democratic so I think it is

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understandable but a lot of Labour members and Momentum members want to

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rebalance that, that is totally legitimate part of Labour Party

:15:12.:15:15.

politics. Isn't that what other groups do? John McDonnell was asked

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about this, the Shadow Chancellor, and he said that's what Progress

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does, what other Labour influencing groups do, they try change the

:15:24.:15:27.

direction of the party, isn't that what Momentum is doing? There is

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nothing wrong with different groups, we have lots of groups linked around

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environmental policy, health policy, to try to influence the party, but

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this is a very different nature, Progress you can only be a Labour

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Party member, we do not have parallel branches in our communities

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of Progress. What we have in Doncaster and elsewhere are Momentum

:15:50.:15:52.

groups and whether these people are members or not, and it is

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questionable now the Jon Lansman tape has been heard, there is entry

:15:57.:16:00.

is through Momentum into our party to influence from far left

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Trotskyist groups who could not get elected on their own platforms but

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are seeking to come to the Labour Party and this goes against

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everything that was promised to the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy

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Corbyn. Do you deny that has been entry is into the Labour Party or

:16:14.:16:17.

attempt to control regional parties and change the candidates that are

:16:18.:16:22.

standing? The problem is organisations like Progress which

:16:23.:16:34.

have opened it up to the kind of big scale business which has no

:16:35.:16:36.

interest... That is ridiculous, Rachel. No interest in what the

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Labour Party have historically stood for. Are you wanting to change the

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leadership rules at conference? Would you like to see a change where

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it is, instead of 15% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, people

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like Caroline Flint can nominate people who go on the ballot, it

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would be 5%, thereby people perhaps on the right wing side of the Labour

:16:52.:16:56.

Party would have a left-wing candidate guaranteed on the ballot?

:16:57.:17:00.

We live in one of the most unequal countries in the world, in Momentum

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we would like to have leadership campaigns where the candidates can

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challenge those inequalities and I don't see why members of the

:17:08.:17:10.

Parliamentary Labour Party like Caroline should have

:17:11.:17:15.

Why should you have the right? We are a mainstream political party, we

:17:16.:17:23.

are not a Trotskyist party. I think it is important that members of

:17:24.:17:28.

Parliament have a say because at the end of the day it will be the person

:17:29.:17:32.

they will follow who will lead them in the chamber. To reduce it down to

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5% is quite ridiculous. What will you do about it? Tom Watson said

:17:38.:17:40.

it's a battle for the future existence of the party and he's

:17:41.:17:44.

sitting in a Shadow Cabinet meeting now to discuss it with John

:17:45.:17:48.

McDonnell. What would you be able to do? I think both John McDonnell and

:17:49.:17:54.

Jeremy Corbyn should be worried and concerned by what has been said by

:17:55.:17:57.

Jon Lansman reportedly over the weekend. I joined the Labour Party

:17:58.:18:02.

in 1979. I've been through the Labour Party through thick and thin.

:18:03.:18:07.

Its first and foremost my priority to win a general election. That's

:18:08.:18:12.

what we need to focus on. You mentioned a general election and at

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the weekend we spoke to Andrew Gwynne, the Labour coordinator. He

:18:17.:18:20.

said he would welcome a snap general election.

:18:21.:18:22.

If the government was to issue a motion in the Commons

:18:23.:18:25.

for an early election, the Labour Party would vote

:18:26.:18:27.

Well, it would be very difficult not to, Andrew.

:18:28.:18:30.

Because if the government wants to dissolve Parliament,

:18:31.:18:32.

wants a general election, we don't want the Tories

:18:33.:18:34.

We want to be in government, we want to have that

:18:35.:18:38.

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:18:39.:18:43.

Is Labour ready for a snap general election if one were to be called?

:18:44.:18:48.

We should be ready for an election. We are getting ready for local

:18:49.:18:52.

council elections in May. For Theresa May, she may find herself in

:18:53.:18:56.

a difficult position because she might make the same mistake as

:18:57.:19:00.

Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown was still in gang dallying over an election

:19:01.:19:06.

and when it came to it, she lost. Like Gordon Brown, and I say this

:19:07.:19:12.

with respect, Theresa May does not have a mandate. We have seen

:19:13.:19:16.

policies on grammar schools, changes to policies on tax not in the Tory

:19:17.:19:20.

manifesto. She has Brexit to deal with. Theresa May should seek a

:19:21.:19:26.

mandate. It would make it much easier for her if she thinks she can

:19:27.:19:30.

gain seats at an election. I think she has a mandate from the people

:19:31.:19:35.

from the referendum. I think once Article 50 is triggered, I think the

:19:36.:19:42.

possibility of a general election disappears for at least two years.

:19:43.:19:46.

There can't be a snap general election because of the fixed

:19:47.:19:50.

Parliament act. Even if the Labour Party agreed to it, it would take

:19:51.:19:54.

some time. It wouldn't come if they voted in favour. I don't think at

:19:55.:19:58.

the moment they would want to be able to stop it. I think there are

:19:59.:20:02.

further reasons. I think Theresa May is driven by duty. She sees her

:20:03.:20:08.

primary duty to get a smooth transition out of the EU. If it

:20:09.:20:14.

comes, I'm very glad the Labour Party is ready for it, but I don't

:20:15.:20:17.

think there will be many of them left. I think everyone is ready for

:20:18.:20:19.

it. on Standards in Public Life has said

:20:20.:20:27.

he will look again at whether rules on MPs having second jobs need to be

:20:28.:20:31.

changed in light of Mr Osborne's new role at the London

:20:32.:20:35.

Evening Standard. MPs are allowed to have second jobs,

:20:36.:20:36.

but the Commons Code of Conduct states that they must not act

:20:37.:20:41.

as a "paid advocate". They do have to declare any payment

:20:42.:20:43.

for employment outside Parliament in the Register of Members'

:20:44.:20:46.

Financial Interests. The rules also state that Cabinet

:20:47.:20:47.

members must wait three months before they can accept any kind

:20:48.:20:50.

of paid employment, and they should not lobby existing ministers

:20:51.:20:53.

on behalf of any organisation that has employed them for two years

:20:54.:20:55.

after leaving office. The Parliamentary Commissioner

:20:56.:21:01.

for Standards - currently Kathryn Hudson -

:21:02.:21:03.

is tasked with looking The commissioner then reports any

:21:04.:21:05.

breaches of the Code of Conduct to the Committee on Standards -

:21:06.:21:10.

currently chaired by Labour's Kevin Barron -

:21:11.:21:12.

which then decides on a course of action to take against an MP,

:21:13.:21:15.

including recommending suspension from the Commons,

:21:16.:21:18.

if this is necessary. But it is up to the Committee

:21:19.:21:25.

on Standards in Public Life to advise the Prime Minister

:21:26.:21:29.

on ethical standards, and the chair of that committee,

:21:30.:21:31.

Lord Bew, told a Sunday paper this weekend that they would have

:21:32.:21:34.

to "look again at our rules" in light of George Osborne's

:21:35.:21:38.

appointment as editor Eric Pickles, Mr Osborne now has six

:21:39.:21:54.

jobs. Not just two, but six. Can he really effectively represent his

:21:55.:21:57.

constituents? I think that's a matter for him and it's a matter for

:21:58.:22:03.

his employers and his electorate. What do you think? I was as

:22:04.:22:09.

open-mouthed and gobsmacked as the rest of the country with the

:22:10.:22:13.

announcement. But if anyone can make it work, I suspect George can do so.

:22:14.:22:27.

He's a young guy. LAUGHTER I can't look you in the face! I

:22:28.:22:33.

can't see a reason why he can't do it whatever his age, six jobs! We

:22:34.:22:40.

know he's accepted this job as the editor of the Evening Standard. He

:22:41.:22:46.

has accepted a post as the adviser for US asset management Blackrock

:22:47.:22:52.

for ?650,000 per year. He also earns money on speeches and conferences.

:22:53.:22:56.

He is also a fellow at the Washington -based McCain Institute

:22:57.:23:01.

think tank, as well as being an MP. However young and energetic, is it

:23:02.:23:05.

possible to do all of those effectively and represent your

:23:06.:23:08.

constituents? Both politics and running a newspaper are pretty

:23:09.:23:11.

cut-throat. If he it will be apparent. I'm interested that there

:23:12.:23:17.

will be an enquiry. There are hundreds of MPs lining up to become

:23:18.:23:22.

editors of newspapers. I think this is actually a pretty unexceptional

:23:23.:23:28.

thing and I think the committee has had this on the stocks for a long

:23:29.:23:32.

time, they are looking for an excuse and this is the perfect excuse to do

:23:33.:23:37.

it. Has he broken any rules? I don't think he has broken any, but he's

:23:38.:23:40.

not working within the spirit of the rules. It's like when we discuss

:23:41.:23:44.

tax, people working in the spirit of it, and they get away with it. I

:23:45.:23:50.

don't think he can do the job. Which job will suffer? I think being an MP

:23:51.:23:54.

will suffer. I have come down this morning on the train from Doncaster.

:23:55.:23:59.

I was in the office for 10am. The idea that you are only working when

:24:00.:24:03.

Parliament is sitting and you turn up for a debate is not the case. I

:24:04.:24:08.

think he has done a huge disservice by his actions, actually. It's not

:24:09.:24:11.

like he needs the money. He's loaded, as we all know. I think he's

:24:12.:24:18.

done a huge disservice... Do you think it will affect other MPs with

:24:19.:24:22.

second jobs? I think it is a huge disservice to the perception of MPs

:24:23.:24:26.

and what we do with our time. I think he's back in British politics.

:24:27.:24:30.

He has been an important voice in the Conservative Party for 15 years.

:24:31.:24:36.

It's a different thing. If it's all about him and positioning himself in

:24:37.:24:39.

the politics of the future, whatever that might be, future leader of the

:24:40.:24:44.

Conservative Party, or future candidate for Mayor of London, I'm

:24:45.:24:49.

not concerned. Is it a conflict of interest in that case? How can you

:24:50.:24:52.

edit a newspaper like the London Evening Standard and be a politician

:24:53.:24:57.

at the same time cost and blue at that Sarah Samson didn't see it as a

:24:58.:25:02.

part-time job. Let's hope he gets the same amount. There is a world of

:25:03.:25:08.

difference between editing this programme and editing a newspaper.

:25:09.:25:12.

Public broadcasters have to remain impartial. One thing about the

:25:13.:25:17.

British press is that it's a very partial organisation. It has views.

:25:18.:25:21.

So it doesn't matter he's not independent because he will be

:25:22.:25:27.

lobbying for the Conservative Party through the newspaper. Don't get

:25:28.:25:29.

bitter about it! I still have hope for you. Is it true? I suspect he

:25:30.:25:36.

will run a successful paper and there is a tradition of journalists

:25:37.:25:40.

becoming politicians and politicians becoming journalists. I'm not

:25:41.:25:44.

advocating, I'm not saying it's a wonderful thing, but I'm saying I

:25:45.:25:47.

don't think it's as important or significant as perhaps you are

:25:48.:25:51.

making it out to be. Eric Pickles talks about bitterness. Caroline

:25:52.:25:55.

Flint, is that your issue, if he was to edit a paper that was more

:25:56.:25:58.

favourable to the Labour Party, you wouldn't have as big a problem? That

:25:59.:26:06.

hasn't crossed my mind at all. I read Evening Standard when I'm in

:26:07.:26:08.

London and I actually think it's pretty fair in terms of where it

:26:09.:26:11.

dishes at plaudits and the brickbats. But what is terrible is,

:26:12.:26:17.

it's like being an MP is not the most important job in George

:26:18.:26:20.

Osborne's life. That's a disservice to other MPs and it's just not right

:26:21.:26:23.

he should operate in this way. I think you should stand-down. Like

:26:24.:26:30.

Tony Blair, like David Cameron, when they decided to step away from their

:26:31.:26:34.

jobs, they left Parliament. You think he should leave Parliament, do

:26:35.:26:37.

you think he will leave Parliament in the end? They will be so much for

:26:38.:26:43.

Rory around this. Will it undermine public trust in MPs? Plenty of

:26:44.:26:48.

Conservative MPs feel that. Ultimately we will have to see

:26:49.:26:51.

whether he can do these two very exacting jobs. That's up to his

:26:52.:26:58.

electorate. What his electorate will have is a very powerful person as

:26:59.:27:05.

their member of Parliament. I'm not advocating him remaining in

:27:06.:27:08.

Parliament and I'm not advocating him going. I just think

:27:09.:27:12.

circumstances will determine this ultimately. In terms of the conflict

:27:13.:27:16.

of interest, he's running a paper with business pages, they will be

:27:17.:27:20.

dealing with companies. He will still be an adviser to asset

:27:21.:27:24.

management firm Blackrock, that will lead to serious questions on whether

:27:25.:27:29.

he can do that and be an MP. I think that the more important of the two

:27:30.:27:32.

questions, if you'll forgive for saying so. That could be easily

:27:33.:27:40.

dealt with if he laid down proper, what we call Chinese walls, so the

:27:41.:27:43.

business editor had complete autonomy over those matters. Would

:27:44.:27:49.

you trust that enough to inoculate and protect? The consequences of

:27:50.:27:53.

breaching that would be beyond imaginable. But there is no

:27:54.:27:57.

transparency or accountability. Who will decide about whether he is

:27:58.:28:00.

doing his job as an MP more than he does his job as the editor? The

:28:01.:28:04.

truth is that the constituents do not have any say as far as I know in

:28:05.:28:10.

terms of recalling. He was Chancellor of the ex-Jet, I imagine

:28:11.:28:13.

that's more daunting than being the editor of the Evening Standard. --

:28:14.:28:20.

Chancellor of the Exchequer. I don't believe constituents suffered as a

:28:21.:28:21.

result. Up to 15 new Bills, on top

:28:22.:28:24.

of the Great Repeal Bill, That's according to a new report

:28:25.:28:27.

from the think tank The report also warns that

:28:28.:28:30.

Parliament is unlikely to have much time for legislating anything

:28:31.:28:34.

non-Brexit related, and may have to find alternative ways

:28:35.:28:38.

of achieving policy aims. We are joined now by Jill Rutter,

:28:39.:28:41.

who co-authored the Institute Welcome to the daily politics. Do

:28:42.:28:52.

you think Parliament will struggle with the bills it as to push

:28:53.:28:59.

through? This is a huge, big additional workload for Parliament.

:29:00.:29:04.

The great repeal bill itself is in many ways the least interesting of

:29:05.:29:08.

the pieces of legislation, but it's a massive task. David Davis himself

:29:09.:29:12.

said potentially thousands of pages of secondary legislation coming

:29:13.:29:15.

through. We have major new bills that will need to be put in place.

:29:16.:29:20.

The new migration and customs regimes and a new agricultural

:29:21.:29:24.

policy. MPs will want to get stuck into those. None of these were

:29:25.:29:29.

planned when the Conservatives ran for government in 2015. What will

:29:30.:29:35.

that do to non-Brexit legislation? We estimate, the figures we have

:29:36.:29:40.

heard say there will be 10-15 of Brexit bills of varying sizes and

:29:41.:29:43.

the great repeal bill. When you take that into account and you have these

:29:44.:29:52.

sessions, 5-8 bills in each of those sessions and loads of secondary

:29:53.:29:55.

legislation, normally in Queen's speech you get 20 bills being

:29:56.:29:59.

introduced. You could say up to around half of your conventional

:30:00.:30:02.

legislative programme might to be displaced. You want secondary

:30:03.:30:09.

legislation might be used to amend primary legislation. What we call

:30:10.:30:14.

Henry VIII clauses. This would mean less parliamentary scrutiny, so will

:30:15.:30:16.

we see more rebellion against the government as a result?

:30:17.:30:22.

We have seen the Government try to take him with yet eight hours before

:30:23.:30:27.

and Parliament revolted against that. Parliament needs to be clear

:30:28.:30:31.

that all it is trying to achieve in the great repeal bill is putting

:30:32.:30:35.

existing European law into UK law, it should resisted the temptation to

:30:36.:30:39.

make lots and lots of changes. There is lots of times that after Brexit.

:30:40.:30:44.

Where it needs to change things, it needs to do that through primary

:30:45.:30:47.

legislation and it needs to give Parliament the to make decisions in

:30:48.:30:54.

advance, draft legislation if feasible, proper impact assessments

:30:55.:30:56.

Parliament can understand what it is being asked to do. Thank you very

:30:57.:30:58.

much. We're joined now by the Ukip

:30:59.:30:58.

MP Douglas Carswell. You have no doubt seen the report's

:30:59.:31:06.

conclusions and listened to the interview, but the Government will

:31:07.:31:09.

have a fairly complex, time-consuming few years ahead of

:31:10.:31:13.

it, navigating Brexit. Are you surprised? Self-government takes

:31:14.:31:18.

energy and effort and if anyone in white Minster -- Whitehall

:31:19.:31:22.

Westminster the it is too much effort they should not be in the

:31:23.:31:25.

business of making public policy. The institute has done a good job of

:31:26.:31:29.

outlining some of the things we need to consider and I think the basic

:31:30.:31:33.

principle, which I hope we can get cross-party consensus on, is that no

:31:34.:31:36.

one should really make changes to public policy, and this Great Repeal

:31:37.:31:41.

Bill should become a great transfer bill. If people want to make changes

:31:42.:31:46.

to public policy, I would love to see higher environmental standards,

:31:47.:31:50.

but that in Europe 2017 general election manifesto, get a mandate

:31:51.:31:55.

from people, don't do it on the sly. Do you think that would work? It be

:31:56.:32:01.

take that blueprint, do the Great Repeal Bill, bring things into law,

:32:02.:32:05.

then spend more time bringing in legislation to perfect agriculture

:32:06.:32:13.

etc? Because it is called Great Repeal Bill it sounds like we are

:32:14.:32:15.

starting with a blank piece of paper! Because many of the laws we

:32:16.:32:21.

have we put forward to the EU, it will be about asserting that we want

:32:22.:32:24.

others and there is time down the road for any political party to put

:32:25.:32:27.

forward their own changes in the future, and Theresa May in her 12

:32:28.:32:34.

objectives said she wanted to keep things like employment protection,

:32:35.:32:37.

and she also said an handset, but that mean she can accept what we

:32:38.:32:41.

already have in terms of the issues around employment rights. Do you

:32:42.:32:45.

accept there will be bills and areas of legislation that cannot just be

:32:46.:32:50.

adopted, to use Caroline's term? Let me just give an example, the

:32:51.:32:55.

Institute of Government has said different systems need to be set up,

:32:56.:32:59.

so if we have an immigration system, one that we have not had before

:33:00.:33:02.

because we were guided by EU principles, then we will need

:33:03.:33:05.

primary legislation and that will take time. There are 15 of those

:33:06.:33:09.

bills, will that be done in two years? As I said, self-government

:33:10.:33:15.

takes time and effort. I'm asking if it will be done in those two years.

:33:16.:33:20.

I think it will, the Institute for Government have highlighted

:33:21.:33:22.

important things but they tend to reflect the priorities but I think

:33:23.:33:35.

they over exaggerate the complexities. Let's take their point

:33:36.:33:40.

of view, is the Government preparing for the legislation? I'm sure it is,

:33:41.:33:46.

forgive me for slightly correcting, Henry VIII powers are not about

:33:47.:33:50.

secondary legislation, it is when the Secretary of State is granted

:33:51.:33:54.

powers to do them without reference to Parliament. Secondary legislation

:33:55.:34:00.

takes place all the time in Parliament, morning, afternoon and

:34:01.:34:03.

evening, and sometimes it is a devil of a job to get people to serve

:34:04.:34:08.

though so it has to be done in a reasonable way, and we are going to

:34:09.:34:11.

need to make some slight changes, it will have to take place there. But

:34:12.:34:15.

there were revolts from the Government try to use those sort of

:34:16.:34:19.

clauses to change legislation and it had to be dropped. Would you be

:34:20.:34:24.

happy, Douglas... Henry VIII clauses are not normal but secondary

:34:25.:34:28.

legislation is. Are you happy for less Parliamentary scrutiny over

:34:29.:34:30.

what could be important pieces legislation? In terms of

:34:31.:34:35.

transferring the status quo, transferring it from EU to UK status

:34:36.:34:38.

quo, I don't see the need for a great deal of debate before the next

:34:39.:34:43.

general election. There are three stages by which an idea like Brexit

:34:44.:34:47.

is accepted by the status quo. Number one, where the Institute of

:34:48.:34:51.

Government was six months ago, it is eight it is unthinkable. Number two

:34:52.:34:54.

is to get to where they are now, which is to say it is impractical.

:34:55.:34:58.

Stage three is for them to say it was their idea all along. The

:34:59.:35:02.

Institute for Government and others are making the journey toward

:35:03.:35:06.

accepting this radical idea. Do you think it will offer more

:35:07.:35:08.

opportunities for rebellion and consent if this is the way

:35:09.:35:27.

the Government has to push through legislation? There will be areas

:35:28.:35:30.

where it will be the consensus because we are just adopting into

:35:31.:35:33.

our Bill Watt with EU law. What they will identify are the points of

:35:34.:35:35.

contention and no doubt on that there is likely to be different

:35:36.:35:38.

views, not just across the chamber but maybe within Conservative

:35:39.:35:40.

benches as well. It will be a hard slog. And it will be done in the two

:35:41.:35:42.

years? Oh, yes. We don't know, sitting here, but if there is that

:35:43.:35:44.

amount of pressure being put on Parliament, we haven't even talked

:35:45.:35:46.

about domestic legislation aside from Brexit, could it delay the

:35:47.:35:50.

whole process of leaving the EU? Let's be frank, over the last couple

:35:51.:35:53.

of years Parliament hasn't introduced much in the way of

:35:54.:35:57.

flagship legislation, the tail end of a Cameron coalition, I think MPs

:35:58.:36:02.

could cope with a bit more work. Often MPs have been passing the

:36:03.:36:10.

clarity legislation to look busy. You think Parliament has been lazy

:36:11.:36:14.

in terms of what it has had to do? The last couple of years has been

:36:15.:36:20.

clarity and I think this is the big change, it will involve bringing all

:36:21.:36:25.

legislation that, so we are going to be busy, we're going to be busy all

:36:26.:36:30.

the time. But what about domestic legislation? Aside from Brexit, will

:36:31.:36:34.

there be any time or room for any of that? This is domestic legislation.

:36:35.:36:42.

I mean aside from Brexit. First and foremost it will be the priority and

:36:43.:36:46.

in the last parliament we had one line whips, not discussing primary

:36:47.:36:50.

legislation and that was lazy Government. On domestic policy the

:36:51.:36:54.

problem we have got at the moment is domestic policy is being made up,

:36:55.:36:56.

like grammar schools, like the stuff on tax the other week, and that is

:36:57.:37:01.

not a problem Brexit, that is a problem... I must let Eric answer

:37:02.:37:06.

that, that policy is being made up. I don't accept that, but I do think

:37:07.:37:12.

there is a case for Parliament to sit for five days a week for the

:37:13.:37:16.

next few years to get this thing through, if necessary. What do you

:37:17.:37:21.

think about that? Fundamentally, the grown-ups are back in charge, for

:37:22.:37:25.

the first time in 20, 30 years, grown-ups are running the Government

:37:26.:37:28.

and it can be done, it is a big ask but with grown-ups in charge we are

:37:29.:37:31.

getting there. When are you going back into the Conservative Party?! I

:37:32.:37:38.

give condiments to ministers when they are necessary, it is my job.

:37:39.:37:42.

What about sitting five days a week? Fantastic. What about you, Caroline?

:37:43.:37:50.

Some others do not live in London, some of us live with our

:37:51.:37:53.

constituents. The days when we are in London, too much of it is one

:37:54.:37:57.

line Whip days, too much of it is not sorting out Government business

:37:58.:38:01.

and we should make sure this area of policy gets the time it deserves and

:38:02.:38:05.

we could do that if we looked at... How will George Osborne Poke those

:38:06.:38:08.

other jobs if he has to sit five days a week? He will cope. Is that

:38:09.:38:15.

your answer? That is my answer. Now let's take a look

:38:16.:38:19.

at what else is happening The Foreign Secretary is off

:38:20.:38:21.

on his travels again this afternoon. It's back to the land

:38:22.:38:25.

of his birth for Boris, who has a series of meetings

:38:26.:38:28.

with the Trump administration. Tomorrow, the Scottish Parliament

:38:29.:38:30.

starts a two-day debate on having On Wednesday, it's the Theresa

:38:31.:38:32.

versus Jezza show - and you can catch PMQs live

:38:33.:38:45.

on the Daily Politics. Wednesday also sees the end

:38:46.:38:47.

of consultation on the Government's controversial proposals

:38:48.:38:50.

on new national funding Jeremy Corbyn makes a speech

:38:51.:38:51.

to the Federation of Small Business And on Saturday, EU leaders meet

:38:52.:38:54.

to mark the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome,

:38:55.:38:58.

which marked the start We're joined now by Laura Hughes of

:38:59.:39:00.

the Daily Telegraph and George Eaton Welcome to both of you. George, what

:39:01.:39:13.

is happening in the Labour Party with Tom Watson saying there is a

:39:14.:39:17.

battle for the future of Labour, that Jeremy Corbyn didn't know about

:39:18.:39:21.

this battle within Momentum, saying they need to rebalance the Labour

:39:22.:39:26.

Party? Labour currently, as it often has in recent times, resembles a

:39:27.:39:31.

fight club more than a political party and what the current battle is

:39:32.:39:35.

really about is who gets control of the party after Jeremy Corbyn is

:39:36.:39:41.

gone. All sides are preparing for another leadership contest and the

:39:42.:39:45.

key issue of dispute is the so-called McDonnell Amendment, that

:39:46.:39:49.

would cut the number of nominations you need to get on the ballot from

:39:50.:39:55.

15% of MPs to 5%. What Jeremy Corbyn's supporters fear is that

:39:56.:39:58.

after him they will not be able to get a left-wing success on the

:39:59.:40:03.

ballot and it is precisely that that Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, Tom

:40:04.:40:07.

Watson among them, want to prevent. How does this play out, if it is a

:40:08.:40:19.

battle for succession, who comes after Jeremy Corbyn at whatever

:40:20.:40:21.

point? We have the Unite leadership election going on at the moment

:40:22.:40:23.

between Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne, what happens next? The

:40:24.:40:25.

interesting thing in mentioning the succession is that John McDonnell

:40:26.:40:28.

has come out today, pretty extraordinary, and attacked John

:40:29.:40:34.

Watson -- Tom Watson in his own Shadow Cabinet and said he is

:40:35.:40:36.

interfering in Unite's leadership contest. I think what Tom Watson is

:40:37.:40:43.

doing and what other Labour MPs are doing is they want to inform Labour

:40:44.:40:47.

members, this is what it will mean, if you change the rules on selection

:40:48.:40:51.

for the leadership, you will end up with somebody else like John

:40:52.:40:56.

McDonnell, someone else in Jeremy Corbyn's close circle, and that is

:40:57.:40:59.

not what they want, so that is probably what this is all about.

:41:00.:41:03.

George, let's talk about another front that Theresa May is fighting

:41:04.:41:06.

on, she has announced she will trigger article 50 to trigger Brexit

:41:07.:41:11.

a week on Wednesday, the 29th, but Nicola Sturgeon has also released

:41:12.:41:16.

the text on a motion on a second independence referendum to be

:41:17.:41:20.

debated on and decided tomorrow, on Wednesday. How does that play out?

:41:21.:41:25.

There is going to be a vote in the Scottish parliament and it will pass

:41:26.:41:32.

the SNP with a majority if you include the Independents in the

:41:33.:41:35.

Scottish parliament. Nicola Sturgeon will use this to bolster the case,

:41:36.:41:41.

she has already been mocking Theresa May saying that she has a mandate, I

:41:42.:41:46.

don't think Nicola Sturgeon was taken by surprise when Theresa May

:41:47.:41:50.

refused to grant her a second referendum bites spring 2019, I

:41:51.:41:55.

think her calculation is that the anger that this will cause among

:41:56.:41:58.

Scots will ultimately help the cause of independence when that second row

:41:59.:42:06.

-- that a second referendum happens. As George said, Nicola Sturgeon

:42:07.:42:09.

probably wasn't surprised that Theresa May rejected the timing of

:42:10.:42:14.

autumn 2080 or early 2019 but she has repeated it in imagine, though

:42:15.:42:18.

she said it would be most appropriately between those two

:42:19.:42:22.

dates. Does it indicate any flexibility on the SNP side? Maybe,

:42:23.:42:26.

over the weekend there were murmurs that Nicola would be more flexible

:42:27.:42:30.

but it is interesting they have used that word again in this motion that

:42:31.:42:36.

has gone out today. I don't know how flexible, she has to appear like she

:42:37.:42:38.

is taking a strong stance because over the next two days where we have

:42:39.:42:42.

this debate in Scotland the Unionists will make a case that

:42:43.:42:45.

Nicola Sturgeon doesn't really have a plan for what would happen if

:42:46.:42:49.

Scotland did become independent. What currency would they use? How

:42:50.:42:54.

would they get rid of the ?15 billion deficit? Questions like that

:42:55.:42:57.

still have not been answered so she has to stick them on something and

:42:58.:43:03.

perhaps it will be the key date. Law reviews and Georgie Dibaba thank

:43:04.:43:06.

you both very much. Before we leave the week ahead, this idea of a Green

:43:07.:43:11.

paper on capping energy prices, is this deja vu for you and Ed

:43:12.:43:15.

Miliband? It does feel a bit like that Groundhog Day moment and we had

:43:16.:43:19.

a debate in Parliament last week in which Jessye Norman was not

:43:20.:43:22.

unfriendly to what some of us have been saying for some time which is

:43:23.:43:26.

that we need to do something about this market because people on

:43:27.:43:29.

standard variable tariffs are paying over the odds, and finally actually

:43:30.:43:33.

in the speech Theresa May made at the weekend, she acknowledged the

:43:34.:43:37.

energy market isn't working so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we

:43:38.:43:40.

will get progress. Tell our viewers this is slightly different to you

:43:41.:43:46.

and Ed Miliband proposed a few years which was a cap, the difference that

:43:47.:43:50.

in the worst and best deals? Relative gap is what John Penrose is

:43:51.:43:55.

suggesting, I don't agree with that, I think basically what we should

:43:56.:44:00.

have is a protective great that the regulator provides for those people

:44:01.:44:03.

on the standard variable tariffs and what it would mean is if their bills

:44:04.:44:08.

-- is that their bills cannot go above a certain level and it would

:44:09.:44:11.

be regulated because since about 2012 they have spent more than 8

:44:12.:44:15.

billion more than they needed to. Do you agree something needs to be

:44:16.:44:19.

done? We have seen huge hikes in energy prices in the last few

:44:20.:44:22.

months. There have been spectacular hikes and I think some consumers

:44:23.:44:29.

feel they have been taken for risk, so we will see what this Green paper

:44:30.:44:33.

says and it it pragmatically means we have to adopt some of this then

:44:34.:44:37.

so be it. You would be broadly in favour of looking at the idea of

:44:38.:44:41.

capping prices? I want to see what it looks like, we have seen a shift

:44:42.:44:45.

in energy prices but nothing that would reflect the shift in prices

:44:46.:44:49.

consumers have paid, so I want to see that... So you think the market

:44:50.:44:54.

is broken in the late Caroline things? That is what Theresa said at

:44:55.:44:58.

the weekend. Markets sometimes can be skewed.

:44:59.:45:01.

Now, from April the minimum wage will rise to ?7.50 an hour.

:45:02.:45:04.

That's as part of the government's plan to take it to more

:45:05.:45:07.

But is it harming at least one group more than it helps?

:45:08.:45:12.

The businesswoman and campaigner Rosa Monckton thinks

:45:13.:45:14.

that the minimum wage is preventing employers from hiring more people

:45:15.:45:17.

with learning disabilities, because their output simply can't

:45:18.:45:19.

Is it just for the money, or to have a role in society,

:45:20.:45:39.

Almost 1.5 million people in the UK have a learning disability,

:45:40.:45:52.

but of those, just under 6% are in work.

:45:53.:45:56.

My daughter Domenica has Down's syndrome.

:45:57.:45:58.

Last year I started a charity for people with learning

:45:59.:46:04.

This is the training cafe where our young people can

:46:05.:46:10.

hone their practical and social skills before trying

:46:11.:46:17.

Something that makes it increasingly difficult to get people

:46:18.:46:21.

with learning disabilities into work is the sharp rise in

:46:22.:46:23.

the minimum wage, soon to go up to ?7.50 an hour.

:46:24.:46:26.

Most people think this is only a good thing.

:46:27.:46:28.

But if it costs more for a company to hire someone

:46:29.:46:31.

than the value of their output, then that person will

:46:32.:46:34.

For those people, the minimum wage doesn't raise their

:46:35.:46:39.

Yet it's considered profoundly controversial to even raise

:46:40.:46:45.

the subject of a therapeutic exemption of the minimum wage for

:46:46.:46:48.

Policymakers seem to live in an abstract world,

:46:49.:46:57.

more concerned with the rhetoric of human rights and equality,

:46:58.:47:01.

rather than what might benefit real human beings.

:47:02.:47:04.

People with a learning disability may still live at home.

:47:05.:47:07.

Often they have no understanding of money.

:47:08.:47:10.

They want to work so they can have a fulfilled and purposeful

:47:11.:47:13.

life, and make friends rather than be alone in front

:47:14.:47:16.

For those people, we need to focus less on their right to a minimum

:47:17.:47:24.

wage, and more on their right to the dignity of a paid job.

:47:25.:47:27.

Do you accept that this is a very difficult issue for politicians to

:47:28.:47:38.

grapple with when they talk about disabled people and what they are

:47:39.:47:42.

worth in terms of work? I don't understand why it should be. Because

:47:43.:47:46.

the mistake that's being made is that people are being judged by the

:47:47.:47:51.

financial worth. This is not about that. It's not about money. It's

:47:52.:47:56.

about what you're worth is as a human being, and it's about the

:47:57.:48:00.

dignity of going to work, the psychological and social benefits of

:48:01.:48:04.

being included. Caroline Flint, do you accept that for people with

:48:05.:48:08.

learning disabilities the minimum wage rules have become in some way

:48:09.:48:12.

an obstacle and is not a protection in terms of them being offered and

:48:13.:48:17.

getting jobs. I don't personally have evidence of that. I think

:48:18.:48:20.

probably before the minimum wage rules came in it wasn't any easier

:48:21.:48:24.

for these young people to find work either. When it comes to disability,

:48:25.:48:29.

physical or mental or learning disabilities, there are such a range

:48:30.:48:34.

of different people that are part of those groups. I understand part of

:48:35.:48:38.

what you are saying, but to say there should be a different level

:48:39.:48:42.

for the minimum wage is probably not the right way forward. There has to

:48:43.:48:46.

be something else. When I was a minister at the WP, often employers

:48:47.:48:52.

were just excluding people because they weren't sure how to work with

:48:53.:48:57.

people, it wasn't to do with pay. -- at the DWP. That requires the

:48:58.:49:00.

government and others to be more involved in getting that right. The

:49:01.:49:05.

employers I have seen over the years who employ people with various

:49:06.:49:08.

disabilities say to me, we wonder why we didn't do it before because

:49:09.:49:12.

it's been great for our company and workforce. The problem is that when

:49:13.:49:16.

ministers and politicians look at the laws, if they were to set

:49:17.:49:20.

different standards all levels, wouldn't it devalue the work of all

:49:21.:49:26.

disabled workers potentially, because as Caroline Flint said,

:49:27.:49:29.

there is a great degree of variation. No. We are talking

:49:30.:49:36.

specifically about people with learning disabilities. I can't

:49:37.:49:40.

emphasise that distinction enough. There already exists within the

:49:41.:49:46.

national minimum wage a therapeutic exemption for peace workers, who are

:49:47.:49:51.

unusually slow in their output. I would suggest to politicians that

:49:52.:49:55.

you look at people in the support group of employment support

:49:56.:49:58.

allowance. I think there are about half a million people there. Many of

:49:59.:50:03.

them might not be able to work anyway. But introduce assessments,

:50:04.:50:07.

introduced as a pilot the therapeutic or minimum wage for that

:50:08.:50:12.

particular cohort. Could you see that happening? We remember Lord

:50:13.:50:16.

Freud saying something similar a couple of years ago. He was a

:50:17.:50:20.

minister at the time. He ended up in a lot of trouble. I understand why

:50:21.:50:24.

politicians are reluctant to look into this. It's important about that

:50:25.:50:31.

idea of worth. You have to recognise that the person with learning

:50:32.:50:34.

disabilities and the employer both need support. You need to offer

:50:35.:50:41.

support to the employer as well as the employees. The point being made

:50:42.:50:46.

is that these are perfectly good, perfectly able employees who can get

:50:47.:50:52.

the satisfaction of work, and enhance the environment for other

:50:53.:51:00.

co-workers. You referred to Lord Freud, who at the time said, when he

:51:01.:51:04.

was discussing this very issue, there is a small, there is a group,

:51:05.:51:09.

and I know exactly who you mean, when you say they are not worth the

:51:10.:51:14.

full wage. It might have been clumsy speech, but were you offended by it?

:51:15.:51:18.

Certainly Labour politicians were and many organisations who felt they

:51:19.:51:29.

were offending people and what they're worth was. You're making the

:51:30.:51:33.

mistake of talking about the financial worth. You need to speak

:51:34.:51:37.

to parents who have adult children with learning disabilities sitting

:51:38.:51:41.

at home and not able to go to work because their economic output isn't

:51:42.:51:47.

worth the minimum wage. I have had the most appalling trolling online

:51:48.:51:53.

since I wrote this article in the Spectator. Unbelievable. But I am

:51:54.:51:57.

sustained by all the e-mails I have received from parents, from siblings

:51:58.:52:02.

saying, please hold your head up above the parapet. We need our young

:52:03.:52:07.

people to get into work. 1.4 million people in the UK have a learning

:52:08.:52:12.

disability, and 1.3 million of them are unemployed. Surely any steps

:52:13.:52:16.

similar to what Rosa Monckton is suggesting, would go some way to

:52:17.:52:21.

encouraging employers to take on more people with a learning

:52:22.:52:25.

disability. The statistics are appalling. I would say that they

:52:26.:52:28.

were probably just as appalling before we had the minimum wage as we

:52:29.:52:32.

do today. Part of the question for me, it is about worth, in terms of

:52:33.:52:38.

individuals themselves feeling like they are contributing and engaging

:52:39.:52:42.

with others. We have seen a huge amount of services that supported

:52:43.:52:46.

young people with learning disabilities and older people, and

:52:47.:52:49.

you mentioned this in your article, they have been shut down and they

:52:50.:52:53.

don't have places to go any more. It requires a wider look. To be honest,

:52:54.:52:57.

going for the minimum wage, I don't think first and foremost it's the

:52:58.:53:01.

biggest problem, but there is certainly something that needs to be

:53:02.:53:06.

addressed, because lots of these young people will be living longer

:53:07.:53:09.

than they did a few decades ago. That's something we need to face as

:53:10.:53:14.

a society for these young people. Eric Pickles suggested more support

:53:15.:53:20.

for employers to encourage people to take on more people with learning

:53:21.:53:24.

disabilities. Mencap, who don't agree with your stance, say it's

:53:25.:53:28.

important for companies to take on more roles for people with learning

:53:29.:53:32.

disabilities. It's one way of looking at it, but businesses are

:53:33.:53:35.

not charities. They need an incentive to take young people with

:53:36.:53:39.

learning disabilities into the workplace. Eric Pickles, if there

:53:40.:53:42.

was a situation where you could talk about different standards and levels

:53:43.:53:47.

of pay, do you think there would be any political weight behind an idea

:53:48.:53:52.

like that? I hesitate to disagree with Rosa, but in the present

:53:53.:53:59.

climate if a government tried to do that, it would be howled out before

:54:00.:54:04.

any good could come of it. I recognise what Caroline says. I

:54:05.:54:07.

would be very much in favour of fundamentally looking at ways in

:54:08.:54:11.

which can get more people with learning difficulties into

:54:12.:54:16.

employment. I think offering support to the employer, offering support to

:54:17.:54:19.

the employee at the same time, a route. But in the modern world it

:54:20.:54:25.

would simply be hounded out, as Lord Freud was hounded out. But it

:54:26.:54:33.

shouldn't be. I know that. Everybody wants to feel like they belong

:54:34.:54:37.

somewhere. All these young people who have been brought up, in

:54:38.:54:41.

mainstream schools, they have been brought up to believe they are part

:54:42.:54:45.

of society and suddenly they are not any more. Maybe there's another way,

:54:46.:54:50.

what is it to incentivise employers? Personally I would say, don't reduce

:54:51.:54:54.

the minimum wage. There are other ways. Employers get all sorts of

:54:55.:54:57.

other things with tax credits here and there and other bits of support.

:54:58.:55:01.

For many things that I don't think are worthwhile, but this could be

:55:02.:55:10.

something different. That's what we do our centre. We have people in

:55:11.:55:16.

employee are supportive positions and we hope they will be offered

:55:17.:55:19.

full-time and part-time jobs at the end of it. One of our candidates

:55:20.:55:23.

last week was offered 12 hours per week at the minimum wage because

:55:24.:55:27.

she's worth it, with support. Another was not. They looked at it

:55:28.:55:32.

very scientifically and said, this person can do 70% of the job. As a

:55:33.:55:37.

company we cannot justify paying the national minimum wage. For the sake

:55:38.:55:42.

of clarity, I accept that, but I was talking about somebody working

:55:43.:55:45.

alongside them in the work itself. But there are people, there is the

:55:46.:55:49.

access to work funding from the government to pay for somebody for a

:55:50.:55:52.

year to be with that person. A lifelong learning disability is

:55:53.:55:58.

exactly that, when that person pulls away, what will happen then?

:55:59.:56:02.

Rosamund Pike, thank you for coming in. -- Rosa Monckton, thank you for

:56:03.:56:08.

coming in. Are the Cornish at risk

:56:09.:56:09.

of ethnic oppression? The Council of Europe -

:56:10.:56:11.

not to be confused with the European Council -

:56:12.:56:13.

have condemned the Government The Cornish were formally

:56:14.:56:15.

designated a minority in 2014, but the Council says the Government

:56:16.:56:19.

has failed to maintain Let's talk now to the leader

:56:20.:56:21.

of Mebyon Kernow, But what say you, Eric Pickles, have

:56:22.:56:39.

you been neglecting your duty and obligation to the people of

:56:40.:56:43.

Cornwall? I'm the guilty man, I gave money to the Cornish language when I

:56:44.:56:49.

was secretary of state. I gave it in order the Liberal Democrats wouldn't

:56:50.:56:53.

block I think half ?1 billion of savings. So it was a bribe?

:56:54.:56:59.

Absolutely! I can't fool you for your honesty. I think it was half a

:57:00.:57:07.

billion in worth. But what about the government helping Cornish people.

:57:08.:57:13.

The government 's help should be to the people of Cornwall, the industry

:57:14.:57:17.

and education in Cornwall. I'm not entirely sure. I would like the idea

:57:18.:57:21.

that Cornish would continue in some form or another, but after all, most

:57:22.:57:28.

of that went into people learning the language, which I'm sure is very

:57:29.:57:31.

beautiful. Do you think it's right, even though Eric Pickles says he

:57:32.:57:37.

only did it so the Liberal Democrats would do not do something the

:57:38.:57:40.

Conservative Party did or didn't want, that the Cornish up entreated

:57:41.:57:44.

the way they should have been. It's not a bad thing to recognise the

:57:45.:57:48.

diversity we have in the United Kingdom. The culture and languages

:57:49.:57:52.

of our great country fine. That's what I said in my press release.

:57:53.:58:04.

What I do find in all of this, I think they are calling for an

:58:05.:58:07.

independence for Cornwall. I don't go down that route. I think

:58:08.:58:12.

something at the general election that this party, who got less than

:58:13.:58:16.

2% of the vote, just four councillors in the whole of Cornwall

:58:17.:58:19.

from this party, I think we could reduce things to such a level that

:58:20.:58:23.

it gets a bit ridiculous. But culture and language and making sure

:58:24.:58:26.

that isn't lost and supporting it in different ways is a good thing. But

:58:27.:58:30.

there's no point if you are not going to do anything about it. You

:58:31.:58:33.

might put the money in but you haven't backed it up. Somebody said,

:58:34.:58:38.

what kind of idiot funded this in the first place, and I said, that

:58:39.:58:43.

would be me! You have just reinforced that on the programme. We

:58:44.:58:47.

don't often get yes ounces from politicians. But thank you for that.

:58:48.:58:52.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:53.:58:54.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:55.:58:56.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories

:58:57.:58:59.

of the day - do join me then. Bye-bye.

:59:00.:59:01.

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