Browse content similar to 20/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
Theresa May has named the date - she says she'll trigger Article 50 | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
That will fire the starting gun on our departure | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
from the EU and begin two years of intense negotiation. | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Here's what else is coming in today's programme... | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Labour's Deputy Leader Tom Watson accuses left-wing supporters | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
of Jeremy Corbyn of plotting to seize control of the party. | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
Mr Watson says the grassroots Momentum group is in cahoots | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
George Osborne insists he can still be an MP and edit | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
But the Ethics watchdog says rules on MPs' second | :01:16. | :01:25. | |
Should people with learning disabilities be allowed to work | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
The businesswoman and campaigner Rosa Monckton says the rules | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
are an obstacle to some, rather than a protection. | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
And are the Cornish at risk of ethnic oppression? | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
The Council of Europe, which upholds human rights, | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
says the Government needs to do more for Cornish people. | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
of the programme today, two giants of the Westminster | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
scene - former Cabinet minister Eric Pickles, | :01:57. | :01:57. | |
and the former Labour minister Caroline Flint. | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
Some breaking news in the last hour - the Government has announced | :02:00. | :02:17. | |
that it will trigger Article 50 on Wednesday 29th March. | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
Let's talk to our political correspondent Vicki Young. | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
So what is going to happen? It seems a long time since the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
referendum in June but Theresa May always said she wanted to trigger | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
article 50 by the end of March and she will do that. After Prime | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
Minister's Questions next week she will make a statement to the House | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
of Commons and then formally send a letter to Donald Tusk, the president | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
of the European Council. That is what happens, of course many other | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
questions then about the negotiations themselves. It means | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
there is a two-year clock ticking before the UK leads the European | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
Union, and in that time both sides will try | :02:53. | :03:12. | |
to get a deal. What it involves, of course, is open to some speculation, | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
but I think at this point Theresa May getting her way, fulfilling the | :03:17. | :03:18. | |
timetable she said she would, despite some bumps along the way, | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
the Supreme Court of course made the Government bring dinner bill, it | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
went through Parliament, changes were made by the laws, but in the | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
end she will get her way and trigger Article 50 by next Wednesday. | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
You mentioned the letter she will send to the European Union, take us | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
through a bit of a process that will happen on the European Union site? | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
We have had some words dropped saying the commission is ready to | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
begin the Brexit negotiations, because both sides want to say they | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
are in control. Absolutely, until now Theresa May | :03:39. | :03:40. | |
has been in charge of the timetable but as soon as she sends a letter, | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
in many ways attention turns to Brussels. Donald Tusk has said they | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
may be ready to give some response to the letter within 48 hours or so, | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
it will be the European Union Council who gives the negotiating | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
mandate to the commission to set forward their priorities, so we will | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
get to know more about the priorities on both sides. Both sides | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
have talked about things like the right of UK citizens -- EU citizens | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
in the UK, Brits living abroad, but there are things they do not agree | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
on, the so-called divorce bill, for example, will Theresa May be handed | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
a huge bill, saying this is what the UK owes and unless you agree to pay | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
it we will not have talks at all? Will they discuss the extricating of | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
the relationship alongside the future relationship, the trade deal, | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
for example? All these questions unanswered but the 27 other European | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
countries will have a summit in the next few weeks then negotiations can | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
start, although people pointing to things like the French and German | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
elections which may delay it, but the timetable is not that long. Two | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
years sounds like a long time but the person in charge of negotiations | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
for the EU has already said he thinks the re-met needs to be made | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
by October 2000 and 18. Eric Pickles, this is a big moment | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
whether you were in favour of it or not. Your reaction to the fact that | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
a date has now been set? It is a massive moment, I'm pleased we are | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
getting on with it, it is right that they act was unamended, but if we | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
know anything about our friends in the European Union it is a five to | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
midnight organisation so I'm not as confident that everything will be | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
sorted out so quickly. Do you agree that it could be one of those | :05:25. | :05:33. | |
marathon, last days of the negotiation timetable in two years' | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
time, it will be a marathon talks between all sides before a deal is | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
done? My view is that over the next two years there will have to be a | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
lot of work done and that the excitement starts in some respects, | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
the detail, but I think at the end of the two years we are only likely | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
to have the headlines. I think after those two years, there will be maybe | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
five, six years of transitioning into every area of policy, which is | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
why even Theresa May before now has mentioned a transition period. I | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
think you are right, there will be a lot left until five to midnight but | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
don't think it will be over in two years' time, they will be discussion | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
for years to come. In terms of a reflection on the Labour side, | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
should there have been more opposition? I feel the Labour | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
position is the right one, it happens to be the one that I | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
believe, but we have to accept the result of the referendum. At the | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
same time I believe our position was right during the discussion of the | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
bill to raise concerns about the fact that EU nationals working here, | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
paying their taxes, do not know what will happen to them, and I think now | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
that we have got a date next week for the letter to be sent, I hope | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
Theresa May will stand by her word, which is to give that particular | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
area of policy priority. Do you agree | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
that we are unlikely to get beyond what Caroline calls the headline, | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
the divorce settlement, and in terms of having a free-trade deal there | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
will have to be interim proposals so that there is no cliff edge? I think | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
all the things your reporter talked about, the eventual bill, the | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
working out of a trade agreement, the working out about the new | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
relationship, if it will be meaningful, has to take place | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
roughly at the same time because all three are interrelated. But I do | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
think it is going to be very complex and I do think it is going to take | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
an awful lot of time, but I do think that we might not see people fully | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
engaged in this on the continent within the European Union until well | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
into the autumn of this year. We will leave it there, but that is the | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
date that will fire the starting gun on the two years of negotiations of | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
Britain leaving the EU, that is March the 29th, that is next | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
Wednesday, a week on Wednesday is when Theresa May, the Prime | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
Minister, will trigger Article 50. Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson, | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
says left-wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn are involved | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
in a plot which could destroy Mr Watson was reacting to claims | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
that the grassroots Momentum group is planning a takeover in a secret | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
deal with the boss of the Unite Yesterday's Observer newspaper | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
published a recording of the chair of Momentum, | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
Jon Lansman, in which he claimed that Unite would affiliate | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
to Momentum if Len McCluskey Let's have a listen | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
to that recording. Tom Watson has been touring | :08:12. | :08:41. | |
the studios this morning. He says the intentions | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
of Momentum are clear. I think Jon Lansman's secret plan | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
threatens the very electoral existence of the Labour Party, | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
which is why I'm speaking out, We're facing an early general | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
election, and yet you've got a very powerful faction leader saying | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
we need to take control That's not going to get us | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
anywhere on the doorsteps, We're joined now by Momentum | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
activist Rachel Godfrey-Wood. You have heard Tom Watson's words, | :09:07. | :09:19. | |
that there is a secret plot to take over the Labour Party. What did you | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
say as a member of Momentum? I find this pretty disappointing, all | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
Momentum has done since we came into existence is to encourage new Labour | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
members to be as active as possible in the party and build up a party | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
capable of providing a general alternative in this country, and it | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
is disappointing when you get figures from the established Labour | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
hierarchy basically talking about this total nonstory. You say it is a | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
total nonstory but Tom Watson is claiming, and deep you listen to Jon | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
Lansman of Momentum, he says Unite, a big union, will affiliate to | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
Momentum and fully participate in Momentum as for the Communication | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Workers Union. Is that not going to happen? I have no knowledge | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
whatsoever of any discussions, obviously we are a left-wing | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
organisation, we want to work with trade unions because we are one of | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
the most fundamentally unequal countries in the world... So you | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
cannot rule it out? I think it is the wrong focus, trade unions are | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
being under attack, we have the most repressive trade union laws in the | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
country, people in those trade unions want to work with Momentum | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
and to me that makes total sense and think it is disingenuous to portray | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
that is there is something out of line about it. You say it would be | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
logical for a union like Unite to affiliate its upward Momentum, this | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
grassroots organisation within Labour. But why would Unite and the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
Communication Workers Union want to divert their political funds away | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
from the Labour Party's organising for local and general election | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
campaigns towards Momentum, which we know is aiming to fight within the | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
Labour Party? Obviously it is up to trade unions within Unite to take | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
these types of decisions, but I suspect there will be people who | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
understand there is a relationship between defending the industrial | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
interests of those workers and also a political struggle which means | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
having a Labour Party which can genuinely fight for workers' rights, | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
and unfortunately that is not what has existed in the past, | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
particularly when people like Tom Watson had an awful lot of influence | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
in the party. What have you got to be worried about? Isn't this just | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
the case of a union affiliated itself to a grassroots movement in | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
Labour that wants to fight on behalf of the workers? Can I just say Tom | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
was elected at the same time as Jeremy Corbyn, so if Tom is an | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
establishment figure then so is Jeremy. I think Jeremy and others | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
will be concerned from what they have heard on the tape because what | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
is being said by Jon Lansman goes totally against what he promised | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
would happen within Momentum. It was promised that anybody who was not a | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
Labour Party member would not be part of Momentum, and what is quite | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
clear from that tape is Jon is saying, we are not going to get with | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
people from Trotsky and other fringe parties in the country, and that | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
goes against everything he promised Jeromy and others, and I have to say | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
what he be reassured Len McCluskey about. The worrying thing is to have | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
a movement like Momentum which has Labour Party members in it but also | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
a ragbag of other people from different parties and different | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
priorities and what our priority is, which is trying to win a general | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
election, which again Jon Lansman I understand that is getting in the | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
way of their planning, planning to do what? Basically to take over the | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
Labour Party. This is the statement from Unite. They say, they make | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
clear it is exclusively for our executive Council to determine which | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
organisations we affiliate to, there are no plans for Unite to affiliate | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
to Momentum and, for the record, the general secretary Len McCluskey have | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
never met Jon Lansman. Is this a nonstory by Tom Watson? It is a | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
capable Jon Lansman has said at a meeting and for me the most worrying | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
aspect is that Jon Lansman and others in Momentum promised to | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
change the organisation to be one in which only Labour Party members | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
could be part. Rachel has heard the tape, Jon Lansman goes against | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
everything he promised and that must be absolutely disappointing for Jon | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
and the Jeromy and others who have supported Momentum. I am | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
disappointed along with them. What do you say to claims? Momentum's | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
rules are totally clear, non-Labour members will not have membership | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
rights, they cannot vote in elections, they cannot hold key | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
positions. People in local Momentum groups can campaign and take part in | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
broad campaigns in which you might have people in other parties, that | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
is up to them. But you heard the tape, he is saying, I'm not going to | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
kick anybody out, we have a plan, the general election is getting in | :14:10. | :14:11. | |
the way of our planning. That doesn't sound, to me, like | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
someone who has first and foremost caught the interest of not just the | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
Labour Party but the people we seek to represent. What is the plan Jon | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
Lansman is talking about? I don't know, I don't think this is | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
fundamentally about plots or plans, this is about a organisation that | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
wants to bring people into politics, get them engaged, because that is | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
the only way the Labour Party will re-establish itself as a genuine | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
power. Also in the tape Jon Lansman said the group should take control | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
of regional Labour Parties and change selection rules for MPs and | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
councillors. The party, as it stands, is fundamentally | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
unbalanced... So that is the plan? On the National executive council | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
you have 30 odd people and only six are democratically elected by the | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
members, that is not particularly democratic so I think it is | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
understandable but a lot of Labour members and Momentum members want to | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
rebalance that, that is totally legitimate part of Labour Party | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
politics. Isn't that what other groups do? John McDonnell was asked | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
about this, the Shadow Chancellor, and he said that's what Progress | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
does, what other Labour influencing groups do, they try change the | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
direction of the party, isn't that what Momentum is doing? There is | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
nothing wrong with different groups, we have lots of groups linked around | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
environmental policy, health policy, to try to influence the party, but | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
this is a very different nature, Progress you can only be a Labour | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
Party member, we do not have parallel branches in our communities | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
of Progress. What we have in Doncaster and elsewhere are Momentum | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
groups and whether these people are members or not, and it is | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
questionable now the Jon Lansman tape has been heard, there is entry | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
is through Momentum into our party to influence from far left | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
Trotskyist groups who could not get elected on their own platforms but | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
are seeking to come to the Labour Party and this goes against | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
everything that was promised to the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
Corbyn. Do you deny that has been entry is into the Labour Party or | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
attempt to control regional parties and change the candidates that are | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
standing? The problem is organisations like Progress which | :16:23. | :16:34. | |
have opened it up to the kind of big scale business which has no | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
interest... That is ridiculous, Rachel. No interest in what the | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
Labour Party have historically stood for. Are you wanting to change the | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
leadership rules at conference? Would you like to see a change where | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
it is, instead of 15% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, people | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
like Caroline Flint can nominate people who go on the ballot, it | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
would be 5%, thereby people perhaps on the right wing side of the Labour | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
Party would have a left-wing candidate guaranteed on the ballot? | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
We live in one of the most unequal countries in the world, in Momentum | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
we would like to have leadership campaigns where the candidates can | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
challenge those inequalities and I don't see why members of the | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party like Caroline should have | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
Why should you have the right? We are a mainstream political party, we | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
are not a Trotskyist party. I think it is important that members of | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
Parliament have a say because at the end of the day it will be the person | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
they will follow who will lead them in the chamber. To reduce it down to | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
5% is quite ridiculous. What will you do about it? Tom Watson said | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
it's a battle for the future existence of the party and he's | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
sitting in a Shadow Cabinet meeting now to discuss it with John | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
McDonnell. What would you be able to do? I think both John McDonnell and | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
Jeremy Corbyn should be worried and concerned by what has been said by | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
Jon Lansman reportedly over the weekend. I joined the Labour Party | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
in 1979. I've been through the Labour Party through thick and thin. | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Its first and foremost my priority to win a general election. That's | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
what we need to focus on. You mentioned a general election and at | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
the weekend we spoke to Andrew Gwynne, the Labour coordinator. He | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
said he would welcome a snap general election. | :18:21. | :18:22. | |
If the government was to issue a motion in the Commons | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
for an early election, the Labour Party would vote | :18:26. | :18:27. | |
Well, it would be very difficult not to, Andrew. | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
Because if the government wants to dissolve Parliament, | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
wants a general election, we don't want the Tories | :18:33. | :18:34. | |
We want to be in government, we want to have that | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
opportunity to put that case to the British people. | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
Is Labour ready for a snap general election if one were to be called? | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
We should be ready for an election. We are getting ready for local | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
council elections in May. For Theresa May, she may find herself in | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
a difficult position because she might make the same mistake as | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown was still in gang dallying over an election | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
and when it came to it, she lost. Like Gordon Brown, and I say this | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
with respect, Theresa May does not have a mandate. We have seen | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
policies on grammar schools, changes to policies on tax not in the Tory | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
manifesto. She has Brexit to deal with. Theresa May should seek a | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
mandate. It would make it much easier for her if she thinks she can | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
gain seats at an election. I think she has a mandate from the people | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
from the referendum. I think once Article 50 is triggered, I think the | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
possibility of a general election disappears for at least two years. | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
There can't be a snap general election because of the fixed | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
Parliament act. Even if the Labour Party agreed to it, it would take | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
some time. It wouldn't come if they voted in favour. I don't think at | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
the moment they would want to be able to stop it. I think there are | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
further reasons. I think Theresa May is driven by duty. She sees her | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
primary duty to get a smooth transition out of the EU. If it | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
comes, I'm very glad the Labour Party is ready for it, but I don't | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
think there will be many of them left. I think everyone is ready for | :20:18. | :20:19. | |
it. on Standards in Public Life has said | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
he will look again at whether rules on MPs having second jobs need to be | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
changed in light of Mr Osborne's new role at the London | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
Evening Standard. MPs are allowed to have second jobs, | :20:36. | :20:36. | |
but the Commons Code of Conduct states that they must not act | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
as a "paid advocate". They do have to declare any payment | :20:42. | :20:43. | |
for employment outside Parliament in the Register of Members' | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
Financial Interests. The rules also state that Cabinet | :20:47. | :20:47. | |
members must wait three months before they can accept any kind | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
of paid employment, and they should not lobby existing ministers | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
on behalf of any organisation that has employed them for two years | :20:54. | :20:55. | |
after leaving office. The Parliamentary Commissioner | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
for Standards - currently Kathryn Hudson - | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
is tasked with looking The commissioner then reports any | :21:04. | :21:05. | |
breaches of the Code of Conduct to the Committee on Standards - | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
currently chaired by Labour's Kevin Barron - | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
which then decides on a course of action to take against an MP, | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
including recommending suspension from the Commons, | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
if this is necessary. But it is up to the Committee | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
on Standards in Public Life to advise the Prime Minister | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
on ethical standards, and the chair of that committee, | :21:30. | :21:31. | |
Lord Bew, told a Sunday paper this weekend that they would have | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
to "look again at our rules" in light of George Osborne's | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
appointment as editor Eric Pickles, Mr Osborne now has six | :21:39. | :21:54. | |
jobs. Not just two, but six. Can he really effectively represent his | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
constituents? I think that's a matter for him and it's a matter for | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
his employers and his electorate. What do you think? I was as | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
open-mouthed and gobsmacked as the rest of the country with the | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
announcement. But if anyone can make it work, I suspect George can do so. | :22:14. | :22:27. | |
He's a young guy. LAUGHTER I can't look you in the face! I | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
can't see a reason why he can't do it whatever his age, six jobs! We | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
know he's accepted this job as the editor of the Evening Standard. He | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
has accepted a post as the adviser for US asset management Blackrock | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
for ?650,000 per year. He also earns money on speeches and conferences. | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
He is also a fellow at the Washington -based McCain Institute | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
think tank, as well as being an MP. However young and energetic, is it | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
possible to do all of those effectively and represent your | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
constituents? Both politics and running a newspaper are pretty | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
cut-throat. If he it will be apparent. I'm interested that there | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
will be an enquiry. There are hundreds of MPs lining up to become | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
editors of newspapers. I think this is actually a pretty unexceptional | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
thing and I think the committee has had this on the stocks for a long | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
time, they are looking for an excuse and this is the perfect excuse to do | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
it. Has he broken any rules? I don't think he has broken any, but he's | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
not working within the spirit of the rules. It's like when we discuss | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
tax, people working in the spirit of it, and they get away with it. I | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
don't think he can do the job. Which job will suffer? I think being an MP | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
will suffer. I have come down this morning on the train from Doncaster. | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
I was in the office for 10am. The idea that you are only working when | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
Parliament is sitting and you turn up for a debate is not the case. I | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
think he has done a huge disservice by his actions, actually. It's not | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
like he needs the money. He's loaded, as we all know. I think he's | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
done a huge disservice... Do you think it will affect other MPs with | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
second jobs? I think it is a huge disservice to the perception of MPs | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
and what we do with our time. I think he's back in British politics. | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
He has been an important voice in the Conservative Party for 15 years. | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
It's a different thing. If it's all about him and positioning himself in | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
the politics of the future, whatever that might be, future leader of the | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
Conservative Party, or future candidate for Mayor of London, I'm | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
not concerned. Is it a conflict of interest in that case? How can you | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
edit a newspaper like the London Evening Standard and be a politician | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
at the same time cost and blue at that Sarah Samson didn't see it as a | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
part-time job. Let's hope he gets the same amount. There is a world of | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
difference between editing this programme and editing a newspaper. | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
Public broadcasters have to remain impartial. One thing about the | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
British press is that it's a very partial organisation. It has views. | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
So it doesn't matter he's not independent because he will be | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
lobbying for the Conservative Party through the newspaper. Don't get | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
bitter about it! I still have hope for you. Is it true? I suspect he | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
will run a successful paper and there is a tradition of journalists | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
becoming politicians and politicians becoming journalists. I'm not | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
advocating, I'm not saying it's a wonderful thing, but I'm saying I | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
don't think it's as important or significant as perhaps you are | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
making it out to be. Eric Pickles talks about bitterness. Caroline | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
Flint, is that your issue, if he was to edit a paper that was more | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
favourable to the Labour Party, you wouldn't have as big a problem? That | :25:59. | :26:06. | |
hasn't crossed my mind at all. I read Evening Standard when I'm in | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
London and I actually think it's pretty fair in terms of where it | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
dishes at plaudits and the brickbats. But what is terrible is, | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
it's like being an MP is not the most important job in George | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
Osborne's life. That's a disservice to other MPs and it's just not right | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
he should operate in this way. I think you should stand-down. Like | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
Tony Blair, like David Cameron, when they decided to step away from their | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
jobs, they left Parliament. You think he should leave Parliament, do | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
you think he will leave Parliament in the end? They will be so much for | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
Rory around this. Will it undermine public trust in MPs? Plenty of | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
Conservative MPs feel that. Ultimately we will have to see | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
whether he can do these two very exacting jobs. That's up to his | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
electorate. What his electorate will have is a very powerful person as | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
their member of Parliament. I'm not advocating him remaining in | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
Parliament and I'm not advocating him going. I just think | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
circumstances will determine this ultimately. In terms of the conflict | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
of interest, he's running a paper with business pages, they will be | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
dealing with companies. He will still be an adviser to asset | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
management firm Blackrock, that will lead to serious questions on whether | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
he can do that and be an MP. I think that the more important of the two | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
questions, if you'll forgive for saying so. That could be easily | :27:33. | :27:40. | |
dealt with if he laid down proper, what we call Chinese walls, so the | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
business editor had complete autonomy over those matters. Would | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
you trust that enough to inoculate and protect? The consequences of | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
breaching that would be beyond imaginable. But there is no | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
transparency or accountability. Who will decide about whether he is | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
doing his job as an MP more than he does his job as the editor? The | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
truth is that the constituents do not have any say as far as I know in | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
terms of recalling. He was Chancellor of the ex-Jet, I imagine | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
that's more daunting than being the editor of the Evening Standard. -- | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer. I don't believe constituents suffered as a | :28:21. | :28:21. | |
result. Up to 15 new Bills, on top | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
of the Great Repeal Bill, That's according to a new report | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
from the think tank The report also warns that | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
Parliament is unlikely to have much time for legislating anything | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
non-Brexit related, and may have to find alternative ways | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
of achieving policy aims. We are joined now by Jill Rutter, | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
who co-authored the Institute Welcome to the daily politics. Do | :28:42. | :28:52. | |
you think Parliament will struggle with the bills it as to push | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
through? This is a huge, big additional workload for Parliament. | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
The great repeal bill itself is in many ways the least interesting of | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
the pieces of legislation, but it's a massive task. David Davis himself | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
said potentially thousands of pages of secondary legislation coming | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
through. We have major new bills that will need to be put in place. | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
The new migration and customs regimes and a new agricultural | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
policy. MPs will want to get stuck into those. None of these were | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
planned when the Conservatives ran for government in 2015. What will | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
that do to non-Brexit legislation? We estimate, the figures we have | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
heard say there will be 10-15 of Brexit bills of varying sizes and | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
the great repeal bill. When you take that into account and you have these | :29:44. | :29:52. | |
sessions, 5-8 bills in each of those sessions and loads of secondary | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
legislation, normally in Queen's speech you get 20 bills being | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
introduced. You could say up to around half of your conventional | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
legislative programme might to be displaced. You want secondary | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
legislation might be used to amend primary legislation. What we call | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
Henry VIII clauses. This would mean less parliamentary scrutiny, so will | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
we see more rebellion against the government as a result? | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
We have seen the Government try to take him with yet eight hours before | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
and Parliament revolted against that. Parliament needs to be clear | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
that all it is trying to achieve in the great repeal bill is putting | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
existing European law into UK law, it should resisted the temptation to | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
make lots and lots of changes. There is lots of times that after Brexit. | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
Where it needs to change things, it needs to do that through primary | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
legislation and it needs to give Parliament the to make decisions in | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
advance, draft legislation if feasible, proper impact assessments | :30:55. | :30:56. | |
Parliament can understand what it is being asked to do. Thank you very | :30:57. | :30:58. | |
much. We're joined now by the Ukip | :30:59. | :30:58. | |
MP Douglas Carswell. You have no doubt seen the report's | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
conclusions and listened to the interview, but the Government will | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
have a fairly complex, time-consuming few years ahead of | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
it, navigating Brexit. Are you surprised? Self-government takes | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
energy and effort and if anyone in white Minster -- Whitehall | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
Westminster the it is too much effort they should not be in the | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
business of making public policy. The institute has done a good job of | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
outlining some of the things we need to consider and I think the basic | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
principle, which I hope we can get cross-party consensus on, is that no | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
one should really make changes to public policy, and this Great Repeal | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
Bill should become a great transfer bill. If people want to make changes | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
to public policy, I would love to see higher environmental standards, | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
but that in Europe 2017 general election manifesto, get a mandate | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
from people, don't do it on the sly. Do you think that would work? It be | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
take that blueprint, do the Great Repeal Bill, bring things into law, | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
then spend more time bringing in legislation to perfect agriculture | :32:06. | :32:13. | |
etc? Because it is called Great Repeal Bill it sounds like we are | :32:14. | :32:15. | |
starting with a blank piece of paper! Because many of the laws we | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
have we put forward to the EU, it will be about asserting that we want | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
others and there is time down the road for any political party to put | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
forward their own changes in the future, and Theresa May in her 12 | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
objectives said she wanted to keep things like employment protection, | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
and she also said an handset, but that mean she can accept what we | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
already have in terms of the issues around employment rights. Do you | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
accept there will be bills and areas of legislation that cannot just be | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
adopted, to use Caroline's term? Let me just give an example, the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
Institute of Government has said different systems need to be set up, | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
so if we have an immigration system, one that we have not had before | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
because we were guided by EU principles, then we will need | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
primary legislation and that will take time. There are 15 of those | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
bills, will that be done in two years? As I said, self-government | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
takes time and effort. I'm asking if it will be done in those two years. | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
I think it will, the Institute for Government have highlighted | :33:21. | :33:22. | |
important things but they tend to reflect the priorities but I think | :33:23. | :33:35. | |
they over exaggerate the complexities. Let's take their point | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
of view, is the Government preparing for the legislation? I'm sure it is, | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
forgive me for slightly correcting, Henry VIII powers are not about | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
secondary legislation, it is when the Secretary of State is granted | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
powers to do them without reference to Parliament. Secondary legislation | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
takes place all the time in Parliament, morning, afternoon and | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
evening, and sometimes it is a devil of a job to get people to serve | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
though so it has to be done in a reasonable way, and we are going to | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
need to make some slight changes, it will have to take place there. But | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
there were revolts from the Government try to use those sort of | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
clauses to change legislation and it had to be dropped. Would you be | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
happy, Douglas... Henry VIII clauses are not normal but secondary | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
legislation is. Are you happy for less Parliamentary scrutiny over | :34:29. | :34:30. | |
what could be important pieces legislation? In terms of | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
transferring the status quo, transferring it from EU to UK status | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
quo, I don't see the need for a great deal of debate before the next | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
general election. There are three stages by which an idea like Brexit | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
is accepted by the status quo. Number one, where the Institute of | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
Government was six months ago, it is eight it is unthinkable. Number two | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
is to get to where they are now, which is to say it is impractical. | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
Stage three is for them to say it was their idea all along. The | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
Institute for Government and others are making the journey toward | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
accepting this radical idea. Do you think it will offer more | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
opportunities for rebellion and consent if this is the way | :35:09. | :35:27. | |
the Government has to push through legislation? There will be areas | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
where it will be the consensus because we are just adopting into | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
our Bill Watt with EU law. What they will identify are the points of | :35:34. | :35:35. | |
contention and no doubt on that there is likely to be different | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
views, not just across the chamber but maybe within Conservative | :35:39. | :35:40. | |
benches as well. It will be a hard slog. And it will be done in the two | :35:41. | :35:42. | |
years? Oh, yes. We don't know, sitting here, but if there is that | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
amount of pressure being put on Parliament, we haven't even talked | :35:45. | :35:46. | |
about domestic legislation aside from Brexit, could it delay the | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
whole process of leaving the EU? Let's be frank, over the last couple | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
of years Parliament hasn't introduced much in the way of | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
flagship legislation, the tail end of a Cameron coalition, I think MPs | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
could cope with a bit more work. Often MPs have been passing the | :36:03. | :36:10. | |
clarity legislation to look busy. You think Parliament has been lazy | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
in terms of what it has had to do? The last couple of years has been | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
clarity and I think this is the big change, it will involve bringing all | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
legislation that, so we are going to be busy, we're going to be busy all | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
the time. But what about domestic legislation? Aside from Brexit, will | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
there be any time or room for any of that? This is domestic legislation. | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
I mean aside from Brexit. First and foremost it will be the priority and | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
in the last parliament we had one line whips, not discussing primary | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
legislation and that was lazy Government. On domestic policy the | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
problem we have got at the moment is domestic policy is being made up, | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
like grammar schools, like the stuff on tax the other week, and that is | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
not a problem Brexit, that is a problem... I must let Eric answer | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
that, that policy is being made up. I don't accept that, but I do think | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
there is a case for Parliament to sit for five days a week for the | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
next few years to get this thing through, if necessary. What do you | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
think about that? Fundamentally, the grown-ups are back in charge, for | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
the first time in 20, 30 years, grown-ups are running the Government | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
and it can be done, it is a big ask but with grown-ups in charge we are | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
getting there. When are you going back into the Conservative Party?! I | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
give condiments to ministers when they are necessary, it is my job. | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
What about sitting five days a week? Fantastic. What about you, Caroline? | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
Some others do not live in London, some of us live with our | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
constituents. The days when we are in London, too much of it is one | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
line Whip days, too much of it is not sorting out Government business | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
and we should make sure this area of policy gets the time it deserves and | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
we could do that if we looked at... How will George Osborne Poke those | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
other jobs if he has to sit five days a week? He will cope. Is that | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
your answer? That is my answer. Now let's take a look | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
at what else is happening The Foreign Secretary is off | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
on his travels again this afternoon. It's back to the land | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
of his birth for Boris, who has a series of meetings | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
with the Trump administration. Tomorrow, the Scottish Parliament | :38:29. | :38:30. | |
starts a two-day debate on having On Wednesday, it's the Theresa | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
versus Jezza show - and you can catch PMQs live | :38:33. | :38:45. | |
on the Daily Politics. Wednesday also sees the end | :38:46. | :38:47. | |
of consultation on the Government's controversial proposals | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
on new national funding Jeremy Corbyn makes a speech | :38:51. | :38:51. | |
to the Federation of Small Business And on Saturday, EU leaders meet | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
to mark the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome, | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
which marked the start We're joined now by Laura Hughes of | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
the Daily Telegraph and George Eaton Welcome to both of you. George, what | :39:01. | :39:13. | |
is happening in the Labour Party with Tom Watson saying there is a | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
battle for the future of Labour, that Jeremy Corbyn didn't know about | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
this battle within Momentum, saying they need to rebalance the Labour | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
Party? Labour currently, as it often has in recent times, resembles a | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
fight club more than a political party and what the current battle is | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
really about is who gets control of the party after Jeremy Corbyn is | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
gone. All sides are preparing for another leadership contest and the | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
key issue of dispute is the so-called McDonnell Amendment, that | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
would cut the number of nominations you need to get on the ballot from | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
15% of MPs to 5%. What Jeremy Corbyn's supporters fear is that | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
after him they will not be able to get a left-wing success on the | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
ballot and it is precisely that that Jeremy Corbyn's opponents, Tom | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
Watson among them, want to prevent. How does this play out, if it is a | :40:08. | :40:19. | |
battle for succession, who comes after Jeremy Corbyn at whatever | :40:20. | :40:21. | |
point? We have the Unite leadership election going on at the moment | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
between Len McCluskey and Gerard Coyne, what happens next? The | :40:24. | :40:25. | |
interesting thing in mentioning the succession is that John McDonnell | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
has come out today, pretty extraordinary, and attacked John | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
Watson -- Tom Watson in his own Shadow Cabinet and said he is | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
interfering in Unite's leadership contest. I think what Tom Watson is | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
doing and what other Labour MPs are doing is they want to inform Labour | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
members, this is what it will mean, if you change the rules on selection | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
for the leadership, you will end up with somebody else like John | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
McDonnell, someone else in Jeremy Corbyn's close circle, and that is | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
not what they want, so that is probably what this is all about. | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
George, let's talk about another front that Theresa May is fighting | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
on, she has announced she will trigger article 50 to trigger Brexit | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
a week on Wednesday, the 29th, but Nicola Sturgeon has also released | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
the text on a motion on a second independence referendum to be | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
debated on and decided tomorrow, on Wednesday. How does that play out? | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
There is going to be a vote in the Scottish parliament and it will pass | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
the SNP with a majority if you include the Independents in the | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
Scottish parliament. Nicola Sturgeon will use this to bolster the case, | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
she has already been mocking Theresa May saying that she has a mandate, I | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
don't think Nicola Sturgeon was taken by surprise when Theresa May | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
refused to grant her a second referendum bites spring 2019, I | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
think her calculation is that the anger that this will cause among | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
Scots will ultimately help the cause of independence when that second row | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
-- that a second referendum happens. As George said, Nicola Sturgeon | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
probably wasn't surprised that Theresa May rejected the timing of | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
autumn 2080 or early 2019 but she has repeated it in imagine, though | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
she said it would be most appropriately between those two | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
dates. Does it indicate any flexibility on the SNP side? Maybe, | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
over the weekend there were murmurs that Nicola would be more flexible | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
but it is interesting they have used that word again in this motion that | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
has gone out today. I don't know how flexible, she has to appear like she | :42:37. | :42:38. | |
is taking a strong stance because over the next two days where we have | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
this debate in Scotland the Unionists will make a case that | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
Nicola Sturgeon doesn't really have a plan for what would happen if | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
Scotland did become independent. What currency would they use? How | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
would they get rid of the ?15 billion deficit? Questions like that | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
still have not been answered so she has to stick them on something and | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
perhaps it will be the key date. Law reviews and Georgie Dibaba thank | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
you both very much. Before we leave the week ahead, this idea of a Green | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
paper on capping energy prices, is this deja vu for you and Ed | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
Miliband? It does feel a bit like that Groundhog Day moment and we had | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
a debate in Parliament last week in which Jessye Norman was not | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
unfriendly to what some of us have been saying for some time which is | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
that we need to do something about this market because people on | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
standard variable tariffs are paying over the odds, and finally actually | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
in the speech Theresa May made at the weekend, she acknowledged the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
energy market isn't working so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
will get progress. Tell our viewers this is slightly different to you | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
and Ed Miliband proposed a few years which was a cap, the difference that | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
in the worst and best deals? Relative gap is what John Penrose is | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
suggesting, I don't agree with that, I think basically what we should | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
have is a protective great that the regulator provides for those people | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
on the standard variable tariffs and what it would mean is if their bills | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
-- is that their bills cannot go above a certain level and it would | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
be regulated because since about 2012 they have spent more than 8 | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
billion more than they needed to. Do you agree something needs to be | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
done? We have seen huge hikes in energy prices in the last few | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
months. There have been spectacular hikes and I think some consumers | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
feel they have been taken for risk, so we will see what this Green paper | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
says and it it pragmatically means we have to adopt some of this then | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
so be it. You would be broadly in favour of looking at the idea of | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
capping prices? I want to see what it looks like, we have seen a shift | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
in energy prices but nothing that would reflect the shift in prices | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
consumers have paid, so I want to see that... So you think the market | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
is broken in the late Caroline things? That is what Theresa said at | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
the weekend. Markets sometimes can be skewed. | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
Now, from April the minimum wage will rise to ?7.50 an hour. | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
That's as part of the government's plan to take it to more | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
But is it harming at least one group more than it helps? | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
The businesswoman and campaigner Rosa Monckton thinks | :45:13. | :45:14. | |
that the minimum wage is preventing employers from hiring more people | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
with learning disabilities, because their output simply can't | :45:18. | :45:19. | |
Is it just for the money, or to have a role in society, | :45:20. | :45:39. | |
Almost 1.5 million people in the UK have a learning disability, | :45:40. | :45:52. | |
but of those, just under 6% are in work. | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
My daughter Domenica has Down's syndrome. | :45:57. | :45:58. | |
Last year I started a charity for people with learning | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
This is the training cafe where our young people can | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
hone their practical and social skills before trying | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
Something that makes it increasingly difficult to get people | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
with learning disabilities into work is the sharp rise in | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
the minimum wage, soon to go up to ?7.50 an hour. | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
Most people think this is only a good thing. | :46:27. | :46:28. | |
But if it costs more for a company to hire someone | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
than the value of their output, then that person will | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
For those people, the minimum wage doesn't raise their | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
Yet it's considered profoundly controversial to even raise | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
the subject of a therapeutic exemption of the minimum wage for | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
Policymakers seem to live in an abstract world, | :46:49. | :46:57. | |
more concerned with the rhetoric of human rights and equality, | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
rather than what might benefit real human beings. | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
People with a learning disability may still live at home. | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
Often they have no understanding of money. | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
They want to work so they can have a fulfilled and purposeful | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
life, and make friends rather than be alone in front | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
For those people, we need to focus less on their right to a minimum | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
wage, and more on their right to the dignity of a paid job. | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
Do you accept that this is a very difficult issue for politicians to | :47:28. | :47:38. | |
grapple with when they talk about disabled people and what they are | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
worth in terms of work? I don't understand why it should be. Because | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
the mistake that's being made is that people are being judged by the | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
financial worth. This is not about that. It's not about money. It's | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
about what you're worth is as a human being, and it's about the | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
dignity of going to work, the psychological and social benefits of | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
being included. Caroline Flint, do you accept that for people with | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
learning disabilities the minimum wage rules have become in some way | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
an obstacle and is not a protection in terms of them being offered and | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
getting jobs. I don't personally have evidence of that. I think | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
probably before the minimum wage rules came in it wasn't any easier | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
for these young people to find work either. When it comes to disability, | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
physical or mental or learning disabilities, there are such a range | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
of different people that are part of those groups. I understand part of | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
what you are saying, but to say there should be a different level | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
for the minimum wage is probably not the right way forward. There has to | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
be something else. When I was a minister at the WP, often employers | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
were just excluding people because they weren't sure how to work with | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
people, it wasn't to do with pay. -- at the DWP. That requires the | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
government and others to be more involved in getting that right. The | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
employers I have seen over the years who employ people with various | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
disabilities say to me, we wonder why we didn't do it before because | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
it's been great for our company and workforce. The problem is that when | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
ministers and politicians look at the laws, if they were to set | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
different standards all levels, wouldn't it devalue the work of all | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
disabled workers potentially, because as Caroline Flint said, | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
there is a great degree of variation. No. We are talking | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
specifically about people with learning disabilities. I can't | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
emphasise that distinction enough. There already exists within the | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
national minimum wage a therapeutic exemption for peace workers, who are | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
unusually slow in their output. I would suggest to politicians that | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
you look at people in the support group of employment support | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
allowance. I think there are about half a million people there. Many of | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
them might not be able to work anyway. But introduce assessments, | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
introduced as a pilot the therapeutic or minimum wage for that | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
particular cohort. Could you see that happening? We remember Lord | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
Freud saying something similar a couple of years ago. He was a | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
minister at the time. He ended up in a lot of trouble. I understand why | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
politicians are reluctant to look into this. It's important about that | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
idea of worth. You have to recognise that the person with learning | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
disabilities and the employer both need support. You need to offer | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
support to the employer as well as the employees. The point being made | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
is that these are perfectly good, perfectly able employees who can get | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
the satisfaction of work, and enhance the environment for other | :50:53. | :51:00. | |
co-workers. You referred to Lord Freud, who at the time said, when he | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
was discussing this very issue, there is a small, there is a group, | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
and I know exactly who you mean, when you say they are not worth the | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
full wage. It might have been clumsy speech, but were you offended by it? | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
Certainly Labour politicians were and many organisations who felt they | :51:19. | :51:29. | |
were offending people and what they're worth was. You're making the | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
mistake of talking about the financial worth. You need to speak | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
to parents who have adult children with learning disabilities sitting | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
at home and not able to go to work because their economic output isn't | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
worth the minimum wage. I have had the most appalling trolling online | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
since I wrote this article in the Spectator. Unbelievable. But I am | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
sustained by all the e-mails I have received from parents, from siblings | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
saying, please hold your head up above the parapet. We need our young | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
people to get into work. 1.4 million people in the UK have a learning | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
disability, and 1.3 million of them are unemployed. Surely any steps | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
similar to what Rosa Monckton is suggesting, would go some way to | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
encouraging employers to take on more people with a learning | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
disability. The statistics are appalling. I would say that they | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
were probably just as appalling before we had the minimum wage as we | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
do today. Part of the question for me, it is about worth, in terms of | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
individuals themselves feeling like they are contributing and engaging | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
with others. We have seen a huge amount of services that supported | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
young people with learning disabilities and older people, and | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
you mentioned this in your article, they have been shut down and they | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
don't have places to go any more. It requires a wider look. To be honest, | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
going for the minimum wage, I don't think first and foremost it's the | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
biggest problem, but there is certainly something that needs to be | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
addressed, because lots of these young people will be living longer | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
than they did a few decades ago. That's something we need to face as | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
a society for these young people. Eric Pickles suggested more support | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
for employers to encourage people to take on more people with learning | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
disabilities. Mencap, who don't agree with your stance, say it's | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
important for companies to take on more roles for people with learning | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
disabilities. It's one way of looking at it, but businesses are | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
not charities. They need an incentive to take young people with | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
learning disabilities into the workplace. Eric Pickles, if there | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
was a situation where you could talk about different standards and levels | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
of pay, do you think there would be any political weight behind an idea | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
like that? I hesitate to disagree with Rosa, but in the present | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
climate if a government tried to do that, it would be howled out before | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
any good could come of it. I recognise what Caroline says. I | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
would be very much in favour of fundamentally looking at ways in | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
which can get more people with learning difficulties into | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
employment. I think offering support to the employer, offering support to | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
the employee at the same time, a route. But in the modern world it | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
would simply be hounded out, as Lord Freud was hounded out. But it | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
shouldn't be. I know that. Everybody wants to feel like they belong | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
somewhere. All these young people who have been brought up, in | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
mainstream schools, they have been brought up to believe they are part | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
of society and suddenly they are not any more. Maybe there's another way, | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
what is it to incentivise employers? Personally I would say, don't reduce | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
the minimum wage. There are other ways. Employers get all sorts of | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
other things with tax credits here and there and other bits of support. | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
For many things that I don't think are worthwhile, but this could be | :55:02. | :55:10. | |
something different. That's what we do our centre. We have people in | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
employee are supportive positions and we hope they will be offered | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
full-time and part-time jobs at the end of it. One of our candidates | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
last week was offered 12 hours per week at the minimum wage because | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
she's worth it, with support. Another was not. They looked at it | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
very scientifically and said, this person can do 70% of the job. As a | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
company we cannot justify paying the national minimum wage. For the sake | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
of clarity, I accept that, but I was talking about somebody working | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
alongside them in the work itself. But there are people, there is the | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
access to work funding from the government to pay for somebody for a | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
year to be with that person. A lifelong learning disability is | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
exactly that, when that person pulls away, what will happen then? | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
Rosamund Pike, thank you for coming in. -- Rosa Monckton, thank you for | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
coming in. Are the Cornish at risk | :56:09. | :56:09. | |
of ethnic oppression? The Council of Europe - | :56:10. | :56:11. | |
not to be confused with the European Council - | :56:12. | :56:13. | |
have condemned the Government The Cornish were formally | :56:14. | :56:15. | |
designated a minority in 2014, but the Council says the Government | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
has failed to maintain Let's talk now to the leader | :56:20. | :56:21. | |
of Mebyon Kernow, But what say you, Eric Pickles, have | :56:22. | :56:39. | |
you been neglecting your duty and obligation to the people of | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
Cornwall? I'm the guilty man, I gave money to the Cornish language when I | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
was secretary of state. I gave it in order the Liberal Democrats wouldn't | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
block I think half ?1 billion of savings. So it was a bribe? | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
Absolutely! I can't fool you for your honesty. I think it was half a | :57:00. | :57:07. | |
billion in worth. But what about the government helping Cornish people. | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
The government 's help should be to the people of Cornwall, the industry | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
and education in Cornwall. I'm not entirely sure. I would like the idea | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
that Cornish would continue in some form or another, but after all, most | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
of that went into people learning the language, which I'm sure is very | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
beautiful. Do you think it's right, even though Eric Pickles says he | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
only did it so the Liberal Democrats would do not do something the | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
Conservative Party did or didn't want, that the Cornish up entreated | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
the way they should have been. It's not a bad thing to recognise the | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
diversity we have in the United Kingdom. The culture and languages | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
of our great country fine. That's what I said in my press release. | :57:53. | :58:04. | |
What I do find in all of this, I think they are calling for an | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
independence for Cornwall. I don't go down that route. I think | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
something at the general election that this party, who got less than | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
2% of the vote, just four councillors in the whole of Cornwall | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
from this party, I think we could reduce things to such a level that | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
it gets a bit ridiculous. But culture and language and making sure | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
that isn't lost and supporting it in different ways is a good thing. But | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
there's no point if you are not going to do anything about it. You | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
might put the money in but you haven't backed it up. Somebody said, | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
what kind of idiot funded this in the first place, and I said, that | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
would be me! You have just reinforced that on the programme. We | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
don't often get yes ounces from politicians. But thank you for that. | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
of the day - do join me then. Bye-bye. | :59:00. | :59:01. |