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This is the scene at Westminster this afternoon. | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
The heart of London, usually alive with people, remains | :00:10. | :00:11. | |
in lockdown after yesterday's deadly terror attack. | :00:12. | :00:51. | |
Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
We'll be dedicating the whole programme to yesterday's terror | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
attack in which three people were killed and at | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
least 40 others injured, some of them critically. | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
The attacker was also shot and killed by armed police. | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
Flags are flying at half mast and a one minute's silence has been | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
observed in the House of Commons and around Whitehall. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
Otherwise, Parliamentary business has resumed as normal this morning. | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
The Prime Minister Theresa May has made a statement | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
She told MPs, "We will never waver in the face of terrorism." | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
She also confirmed that the suspect in the attack was British born, | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
had previously been investigated by MI5, but as a peripheral figure, | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
and was "not part of the current intelligence picture." | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
Two of the victims have been named as Police Constable Keith | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
PC Palmer died after being stabbed outside the Houses of Parliament. | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
Mrs Frade, a college worker, died after being struck | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
She was on her way to pick up her two | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
Armed police have carried out raids at addresses in Birmingham and | :02:02. | :02:14. | |
London. Scotland Yard says eight people have been arrested. | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
With us for the whole of the programme today | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
are the former Conservative party leader Iain Duncan Smith and Shadow | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
Emily, where were you when this was unfolding? I had just come down the | :02:23. | :02:31. | |
escalator and I was at the bottom part of the square, where the | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
shooting took place. I heard the shooting and I saw lights flashing | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
as the shooting happened. It was obviously magnified, the sound was | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
magnified because we were in the corridor. People turned and were | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
running back towards me. The police started saying we should go in the | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
opposite direction. I went to portcullis house. The more modern | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
building, across the road from Big Ben? You go across the road. I went | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
up the escalator into a big atrium. There were a lot of people there. I | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
started to worry about that. I also thought there was a shot outside, so | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
I thought somebody might be shooting outside and somebody in the | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
building, coming down the back. I stood behind a pillar, I was with a | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
young MP, who was very jittery and have lost one of her friends. We | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
found him, and had a moment of laughter. I don't get on with him | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
very well, I said I was pleased to see him and he said he didn't think | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
he would hear me say that. We decided the best thing to do was not | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
to stay there, because if there was a gunman it would be best for people | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
to scatter. We barricaded us into an office, in Portcullis House. That | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
was locked down as well? Then I went to my office to be with my staff. | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, what were you doing? I had just come across the | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
road, the division was on and I was coming to see somebody at lunch. The | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
gates, when a division is on, were open. I went straight through. The | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
same gate the attacker came through? Yes, I literally walked past a | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
police officer, went straight past him at the gate. He said, quick, go | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
in that way, it is quicker. I went down and got into the division | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
lobby, out the other side. I was going up the corridor, there was | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
bustling chaos all of a sudden, something was going on. It turned | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
out the Prime Minister had been rushed away out the back of the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
lobby. I didn't think much about it and headed to the tearoom and my | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
office. We didn't know much about what was going on. Suddenly I saw | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
the sitting was suspended. I was going to get notes because I was | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
going to take part in the debate. Sitting was suspended, I thought, | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
what the hell is going on? The speakers do not work very well, I | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
could not work it out. Then suddenly was banging on doors, get out, they | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
cleared everybody into the central lobby. There are no windows there? | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
That was the idea. Eventually, nobody knew what was happening and | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
we shuffled through the Westminster Hall. The oldest part? Exactly, it | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
is pretty cold, but there we were. And we stood there until just before | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
eight o'clock. You were in Parliament when this was going on? I | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
spent quite a few hours in the same part of parliament as Iain Duncan | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
Smith. Where Emily was standing, the edge of Portcullis House, I had just | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
left. The division Bell had gone, I was with a friend, we walked through | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
the bottom of the stairs, where the stabbing and shooting took place. We | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
heard the gunshots. For a moment, I didn't know what it was. Despite the | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
fact we had been told something like this would happen, it was still a | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
shock. The gunshots were still behind us, back in the square. We | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
saw armoured police running towards the danger, telling us to run away | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
from it. Which we did. They, of course, ran straight to the scene of | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
where Keith Palmer, the police officer, had lost his life been | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
stabbed. We were either end of the corridor? Yes. These are people we | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
see on a daily basis, people we say hello to. The armed police ushered | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
us in, there were scores of people, hundreds, by the time we got to the | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
Central lobby. Parliamentarians, old, young, schoolchildren. | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
Everybody was locked down. The guards with the big rifles, running | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
through. They did not know at that point whether somebody was loose, | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
armed, in the building. As Iain Duncan Smith said, they didn't want | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
us near any class because of the fear of an explosion. We stayed | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
there, moved to the Central Lobby and five hours later the evacuation | :06:48. | :06:48. | |
started. Earlier this morning, | :06:49. | :06:49. | |
the Prime Minister Theresa May gave Mr Speaker, yesterday an act of | :06:50. | :07:04. | |
terrorism tried to silence our democracy. But today we meet as | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
normal, as generations have done before us, and as future generations | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
will continue to do, to deliver a simple message. We are not afraid. | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
Our resolve will never waver in the face of terrorism. We meet here, in | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
the oldest of all parliaments, because we know that democracy and | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
the values it entails will always prevail. Those values, free speech, | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
liberty, human rights and the rule of law, are embodied here in this | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
place. But they are shared by free people around the world. A terrorist | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
came to the place where people of all nationalities and cultures | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
gathered to celebrate what it means to be free. He took out his rage | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
indiscriminately, against innocent men, women and children. Mr Speaker, | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
this was an attack on free people everywhere. And a half of the | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
British people, I would like to thank our friends and allies around | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
the world who have made it clear that they stand with us at this | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
time. What happened on the streets of Westminster yesterday afternoon | :08:24. | :08:36. | |
second -- sickened us all. At the moment, while there is an | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
investigation, there are limits on what I can say. But let me set out | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
what I can tell the house. At approximately 2:40pm yesterday, a | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
single attacker drove his vehicle at speed into innocent pedestrians | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
crossing Westminster Bridge, killing two people and injuring around 40 | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
more. In addition to 12 Britons admitted to hospital, we know that | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
the victims include three French children, two Romanians, four South | :09:04. | :09:13. | |
Koreans, one German, one Pole, one Irish, one Chinese, one Italian, one | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
American and two Greeks. We are in close contact with the governments | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
of the countries affected. The injured also included three police | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
officers, who were returning from an event to recognise their bravery. | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
Two of those three remain in a serious condition. Mr Speaker, the | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
attacker then left the vehicle and approached a police officer at | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
carriage Gates, attacking that officer with a large knife, before | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
he was shot dead by an armed police officer. Tragically, as the house | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
will know, 48-year-old PC Keith Palmer was killed. PC Palmer had | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
devoted his life to the service of his country. He had been a member of | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
the Parliamentary and diplomatic protection command for 15 years, and | :10:04. | :10:11. | |
a soldier in the Royal Artillery before that. He was a father and | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
husband, killed doing a job he loved. He was every inch a hero and | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
his actions will never be forgotten. The whole house will join me in | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
sending our deepest condolences to his family and the families and | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
friends of all of those that have been killed or injured in | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
yesterday's awful attacks. I know also that the house will want to | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
thank all those who acted with such speed and professionalism yesterday | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
to secure this place and ensure we are able to meet, as we are doing | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
today. Mr Speaker, at 7:30pm last night, I chaired a meeting with the | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
emergency committee, Cobra, and will have further meetings and briefings | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
with security officials today. The threat level to the UK has been set | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
at a severe, meaning that an attack is highly likely for some time. This | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
is the second highest threat level. The highest level, critical, means | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
there is a specific intelligence that an attack is imminent. As there | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
is no such intelligence, the independent joint terrorism analysis | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
Centre has decided the threat level will not change in the light of | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
yesterday's attack. Mr Speaker, the whole country will want to know who | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
was responsible for this atrocity and the measures that we are taking | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
to strengthen security, including here in Westminster. A full | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
counterterrorism investigation is already under way. Hundreds of our | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
police and security officers have been working through the night to | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
establish everything possible about this attack, including its | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
preparation, motivation and whether there were any associates involved | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
in its planning. While there remain limits on what I can say at this | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
stage, I can confirm that overnight the police have searched six | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
addresses and made eight arrests in Birmingham and London. It is still | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
believed that this attacker acted alone and the police have no reason | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
to believe there are imminent further attacks on the public. His | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
identity is known to the police and MI5. When operational considerations | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
allow, he will be publicly identified. What I can confirm is | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
that the man was British-born and that, some years ago, he was once | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
investigated by MI5 in relation to concerns about violent extremism. He | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
was a peripheral figure. The case is historic. He was not part of the | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
current intelligence picture. There was no prior intelligence on his | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
intent or of the plot. Intensive investigations continue. As Acting | :12:53. | :13:03. | |
Deputy Commissioner confirmed last night, the working assumption is | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
that the attacker was inspired by Islamist ideology. We know that the | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
threat from Islamist terrorism is very real. And while the public | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
should remain utterly vigilant, they should not and will not be cowed by | :13:15. | :13:28. | |
this threat. As Acting Deputy Commissioner Rowley Cosmic Key, we | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
stepping up patrols in cities across the country, with more police and | :13:34. | :13:41. | |
armed police on the streets. Since June 2013, our police, security and | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
intelligence agencies have successfully disrupted 13 separate | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
terrorist plots in Britain. Following the 2015 strategic defence | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
and Security review, we protected the police budgets for | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
counterterrorism and committed to increase cross government spending | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
on counterterrorism by 30% in real terms over the course of this | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
Parliament. Over the next five years, we will invest an extra ?2.5 | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
billion in building our global security and intelligence network, | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
employing 1900 additional staff at MI5, MI6 and GCHQ, and more than | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
doubling our global network of counterterrorism experts, working | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
with priority countries across Europe, the Middle East, Africa and | :14:25. | :14:25. | |
Asia. Mr Speaker, in terms of security | :14:26. | :14:35. | |
here at Westminster we should eat clearer first of all that an | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
attacker attempted to break into Parliament and was shot dead within | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
20 yards up the gate. If his intention was to gain access to this | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
building we should be clear he did not succeed. The police heroically | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
did their job. But as is routine, the police together with the House | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
parodies are reviewing the security of the Parliamentary estate, | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
coordinated with Cabinet Office who have responsibility for security | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
measures in place around government secure zones. All of us in this | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
House have a responsibility for the security and safety of our staff and | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
advice is available for members who needed. Mr Speaker, yesterday we saw | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
the worst of humanity but we will remember the best. We will remember | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
the extraordinary efforts to save the life of PC Keith Palmer | :15:30. | :15:31. | |
including those by my right honourable friend, the Member for | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
Bournemouth East. And we will remember the exceptional bravery of | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
our police, security and emergency services who once again ran towards | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
the danger even as they encouraged others to move the other way. On the | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
half of the whole country, I want to pay tribute to them for the work | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
they have been doing to reassure the public, treat the injured and bring | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
security back to the streets of our capital city. That they have lost | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
one of their own in yesterday's attack only makes the cameras and | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
professionalism all the more remarkable. -- calmness. More will | :16:09. | :16:21. | |
be set in the coming days but the greatest response lies not in the | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
words of politicians but in the everyday actions of ordinary people. | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
For beyond these halls today in scenes repeated in towns and cities | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
across the country millions of people are going about their days | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
and getting on with their lives. The streets are as busy as ever, the | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
offices of all, the copy shops and cafes bustling. As I speak millions | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
will be boarding trains and planes to go to London to see for | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
themselves the greatest city on earth. It is in these actions | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
millions of acts of normality that we find the best response to | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
terrorism. A response that denies our enemies their victory, that | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
refuses to let them win. That shows the bill never given. In response | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
that driven by Doug Sainsbury that drove a husband and father to put | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
himself between us and our attacker and to pay the ultimate price. A | :17:19. | :17:27. | |
response that says men and women who propagate this had an evil, you will | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
not defeat us. Let this be the message from this House and nation | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
today, our values will prevail and I commend this statement to the House. | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
Order, order. Colleagues, I am biased that we have enjoined today | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
by French Foreign Minister who is accompanied by a number of his | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
colleagues and also by the deputy Foreign Secretary the right | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
honourable gentleman the Member for Rutland and Melton so we appreciate | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
your presence and you're very fitting display of solidarity with | :18:09. | :18:09. | |
us. Speaker John Bercow responding | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
to the Prime Minister's Theresa May. And he acknowledged the presence of | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
the French Foreign Minister in the Commons this morning. | :18:22. | :18:22. | |
And we'll hear the response from Jeremy Corbyn | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
We're joined now by our Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg. | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
The Prime Minister told us the attacker was British-born, he had | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
been on a sort of MI5 watchlist some time ago wasn't part now of any | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
current intelligence investigations and we are also learning more about | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
what happened yesterday. We are and in the last 20 minutes I was told it | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
was not one of the armed guards in the Palace of Westminster who would | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
be there as part of routine security who shot the attacker, I understand | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
in fact it was one of the bodyguards of the Defence Secretary Michael | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
Fallon. The crucial difference above that is that of course those | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
bodyguards, the close protection officers are only in the Palace of | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
Westminster when those ministers are actually there. So as I understand, | :19:10. | :19:18. | |
those events in Palace Yard, we have seen the pictures of where the | :19:19. | :19:20. | |
attacker was stopped in his tracks, but is a part of Westminster that | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
ministers sweep in and out of in armed cars with their own security | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
detail, it is as I understand, a member of one of those teams who | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
stop the attack are getting any further and getting closer into the | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
heart of Westminster for there were hundreds of people. That is a | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
crucial difference, it hasn't been officially confirmed by the | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
Metropolitan Police yet but we understand that is what happened. | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
That explains because I was puzzled yesterday, that the attacker was | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
shot by plainclothed policemen as they were called but it turns out we | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
think to be the close protection officers of the Defence Secretary | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
which of course immediately raises the question, it was entirely | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
fortuitous that they were there at that time. It was a time MPs were | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
voting and just as MPs around the place rushed towards the House of | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
Commons division is lobbied to go through ministers from around | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
Whitehall get into their cars, they rushed down fight all into | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
Parliament, carry out their duty, voting, and you are absolutely | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
right, if as we understand it, the person who stop the attacker getting | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
further, but of course horrifically they might have potentially have | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
been able to cause more damage and potentially a much greater loss of | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
life was only stopped as we understand it, by a coincidence of | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
the time that the tactic place during a vote in the House of | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
Commons. As I say, important to note, this is not officially been | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
confirmed by the government or the Metropolitan Police but we | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
understand that BBC news that is the case and it seems potentially, it is | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
a coincidence that the loss of life was as small as it was although of | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
course for the people involved, events as great as they could | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
possibly be. Is there a suggestion he was able to get through the gates | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
because of the coincidence, he had smashed his car, he had run round... | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
During a vote, I think you've already said, the gates are open to | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
allow ministers to go in and out but even at times when they vote isn't | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
taking place against two open every now and again and there are | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
policemen on the front and everyone says hello as they go past but I | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
think in the coming days and of course the focus is on the | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
investigation, the current security arrangements, of course, that is | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
what is in peoples's minds and the Prime Minister was extremely careful | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
and I was in the chamber and clearly from all sides of the House was | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
given very robust support in the tone that she struck, calling for | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
unity and resolve other than today at this stage looking to find fault. | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
But I do think in the coming days there will be a lot of discussion | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
about whether or not the security inside the Commons is really as it | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
should be. As we've been remarking it is impossible even to imagine, | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
it's not even 24 hours since this all started but it has obvious been | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
the case that once you are inside Westminster, it feels like an | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
extremely safe place. Very difficult to get in, we all what past dozens | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
of armed officers all the time but once you're in, it has always been | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
very much regarded as a place of safety, that's one of the wonderful | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
things about it for politicians and members of the public who can come | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
in and walk around and spot a government minister but as details | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
of this become crystal clear, we are only starting to piece things | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
together, there will be very real concerns raised about security | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
inside the Palace of Westminster and having been part of the lockdown | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
yesterday the staff in Parliament were trying their absolute best to | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
keep everybody safe. But there was a lot of shouting, especially in the | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
early moments, quite a chaotic atmosphere and people didn't | :23:12. | :23:13. | |
necessarily know for they were meant to be going or what to do. I was | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
part of a group of people, we were moved around if you times to parts | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
of the parliamentary estate, I know MPs work unhappy, some of them about | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
being kept in the chamber, their burglaries in case it was a chemical | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
attack, people had to stay in the chamber, MPs and peers at the other | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
end would not necessarily happy about that at all. It's a huge | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
relief or escape that this terrorist was not armed in the wake that | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
terrorists at the Bataclan or Charlie Hebdo were organised or | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
Brussels. I think we are going to leave it there because we have a lot | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
to talk about but you have given us quite a dramatic element Laura, so | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
thank you. We will talk to the security minister shortly. | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
Now, as we heard, addresses in London and Birmingham | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
Our correspondent Phil Mackie is in Birmingham and we | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
Can you bring us up to date with what's happening? We know for | :24:15. | :24:23. | |
arrests were made in Birmingham, three of them in the flats here, | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
flats above this restaurant and around 11 o'clock last night armed | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
forces came and sealed off the road, you can here the traffic in the | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
background, a busy route into Birmingham, they sealed it off, came | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
in here, shops and restaurants which were still quite busy at 11pm last | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
night, everyone was kept on lockdown for two hours and three men were | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
seen being taken away. In the small hours, a little bit later, boxes of | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
evidence were taken out. There is still a lot of activity going on | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
here, into the afternoon, we haven't had confirmation that these arrests | :25:01. | :25:02. | |
were linked to what happened in Westminster but it's got to be more | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
than a coincidence and all enquiries are being referred to Scotland Yard. | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
What's the atmosphere like in the area for you are because of Busby of | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
concern and worrying to the local community there as well? It's one of | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
those strange places in Birmingham, that way across the road is one of | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
the richest parts of the city, Edgbaston, millionaires Row, this | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
side, just about in Ladywood, just about the poorest area of Birmingham | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
and one of the three poorest districts in the country, a real | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
transient population, people from all across the world and they don't | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
necessarily know each other. We spoke to neighbours who solve what | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
happened last night, clearly frightened by armed officers at the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
door but they can't really see a great about who was in there and | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
what they might have been up to. I can tell you actually now there are | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
probably about ten times as many journalists as members of the public | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
and there are one or two annoyed businesspeople, the restaurant | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
owners who would quite like to get open and camphor obvious reasons, | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
journalists from all over the world gathered here because really is this | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
investigation on falls this is probably the only location in the | :26:11. | :26:12. | |
country we can see anything happen then. Thank you. I can bring you | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
news the Islamic State terror group has claimed the Westminster attacker | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
was a soldier of the Islamic State. That's just been released in the | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
last few minutes. That is the standard format they use when | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
claiming responsibility for Islamic State attacks. This would be a good | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
time to bring in the security minister Ben Wallace. | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
We're joined now by the Security Minister Ben Wallace. | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
To pick up on the conversation we were having with Laura about what | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
happened in the Palace of Westminster and new Palace Yard, | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
shooting, the shooting of the attacker that was done by protection | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
officers we understand, the Defence Secretary, can you confirm that? I | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
cannot, we are not going to speculate about an incident, I think | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
the facts as presented by Mark Rowley, and followed up why the | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
Prime Minister in her statement is where we are. I learned a long time | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
ago in my previous life in counterterrorism not to speculate... | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
It can't be a matter of speculation who shot the attacker. As the | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
security minister you must know by now. I know what's been going on but | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
we have to establish... You know who shot the attacker? I am aware of | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
what went on yesterday to the best of my ability. So it's not | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
speculation. What we need to do is give space to law enforcement | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
agencies, to make sure they can verify the facts as witnesses have | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
made representations about what they saw, piece together the incident and | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
exploit the intelligence and I think, you know, as you said, it | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
hasn't been confirmed, talking about who may or may not have actually | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
shot the attacker, I don't think is how all at this moment. Except it | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
raises questions about security, security of people who work within | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
the Palace of Westminster as well as those outside of MPs, | :28:14. | :28:15. | |
parliamentarians, staff, visitors and tourists to the area. Do you | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
think it is sufficiently robust, bearing in mind the police officer | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
who died in the line of duty, Keith Palmer, was an armed as he tried to | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
apprehend the attacker? I think it's robust, let's not forget the tragic | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
murder of Keith Palmer happened but he died doing a job alongside armed | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
officers of protecting that entrance and the assailants didn't get more | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
than 20 yards into Parliament and he was stopped with lethal force. We | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
shouldn't forget that. I was listening to Laura Coombes bird's | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
comment about what was going on inside, and I think we should | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
remember that the police and work are systematic you cleared a | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
difficult building to clear. -- Laura Coombes bird. But people with | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
the untrained eye couldn't see us that we were being moved from an | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
cleared and two-tiered areas. I understand they were sweeping the | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
whole of the building but I think it remains this crucial issue, you say | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
there are armed guards, police officers at the gates which opened | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
to let ministerial cars in and out, is that the case? I'm not going to | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
go any further about who actually was involved in the shooting | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
incident, I think what I can say is that our police forces who police | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
both outside and inside and the government quarter around part of | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
Whitehall are many and there are plenty of plans in place that you | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
don't see but happen every day to try and keep us as safe as possible. | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, are you reassured that the security systems in place | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
at Westminster are robust enough? Well, he was quite clear in the | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
sense that he doesn't want to discuss this now, and I understand | :30:06. | :30:07. | |
that. I think the point being made is legitimate, that we will need to | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
look at this after the dust has settled, to figure out whether or | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
not there was sufficient protection at key entrances. For example, at St | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
Stephen's entrance, there are always go there all the time, because that | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
is where the public often come. The question will be raised about if | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
there is an armed officer there. I don't know if this is true or not, | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
but maybe now is not the time for this. But it will certainly happen, | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
because a lot of colleagues will ask questions about what was taking | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
place during the course of the lockdown. The attacker himself, the | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
Prime Minister described him as peripheral. We could be I -- he | :30:46. | :30:56. | |
could have been involved in extremes, do you think the security | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
services and GCHQ have enough resources to tackle all of the | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
potential suspect that could perform this kind of lone wolf attack? I do. | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
I ask them that regularly. I asked, and this Government has increased | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
resources to fight terrorism by 30% over this Parliament. That is a | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
massive increase. We expanded MI5, MI6 and GCHQ to meet the threat. We | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
are very alive to asking the agencies whether they have the | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
support and resources they need. We also have to tackle terrorism within | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
the bounds of the legal framework. Have to make sure that we always do | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
things that are proportionate and necessary in order to do it. That | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
are the guidelines that the intelligence officers followed the | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
letter, to achieve safety as much as possible. Emily Thornberry, Lord | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
Carlile has said today that the Government will obviously, in his | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
words, have to look at the level of staffing in organisations like the | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
security services and GCHQ. Do agree? I do. | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
I think it's interesting this man was seen as peripheral. I would be | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
interested to know when he was identified as being peripheral and | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
if it was somebody the Home Office knew about when Theresa May was | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
there, and why it was decided he was peripheral. Obviously, you have to | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
have priorities. Resources will never be finite, you have to make | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
decisions about who is peripheral and who isn't. With more resources | :32:31. | :32:38. | |
you can cast the net further. I agree there will have to investigate | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
this. Just so the public understand the scale of the effort going on | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
now... Because of the numbers of people we are talking about? He was | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
considered peripheral, but he had been checked. There are lots of | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
character similar to this in communities, I know in my borough, | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
north-east London, there will be a lot of characters like this on the | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
margins. The question is, how much resource do you need to follow all | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
of these people? It is a big question, it is not that we are not | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
doing anything. The question is, how far are we prepared to go and how | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
much are we prepared to spend? I used the expression lone wolf, he | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
was on his own, he plunged his car into pedestrians, killing two of | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
them, and able to bridge the security into Westminster. We have | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
just spoken to Phil Mackey, who talked about raids in London and | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
Birmingham, does that imply it is part of a wider network? Nobody is | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
100% alone. The attack was clearly perpetrated by one person, but what | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
we know from looking at France and Germany is that they have either | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
been radicalised online, and therefore there is an implication | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
summary has reached out from abroad or at home, or in some events there | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
was logistical support. I think that is what the leaves are which are | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
being exploited at the moment by security agencies and police forces | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
to get to the bottom of that. The initial incident has effectively | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
closed. It was viewed as a single attacker. I would like to make one | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
point about intelligence. One thing that is really important to remember | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
is that we always get into this area, intelligence in retrospect, | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
I'm afraid, is always right. Every day, intelligence services and | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
police officers see in front of them segments or scraps of intelligence | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
and they have to make a judgment, amongst thousands of different | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
scraps of intelligence, where to put the resource and which defines | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
intent. There are a lot of people who might talk about things, but who | :34:34. | :34:41. | |
is going to do something? Not now, and Iain Duncan Smith is right, | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
there will be a debrief, a review, whatever you want to call it, of the | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
whole event. That is why we are such good agencies and police forces, | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
because we learn, if there are mistakes, we learn where we can | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
improve. It is important to remember that we do not put these people out | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
here as if they have made some kind of mistake. Intelligence in | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
retrospect is always viewed as right. At a time, it is a judgment | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
call and I trust their judgment. And we hear that they are boiling point | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
all the time? Being armed only with a knife, it | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
might suggest it may not be a lone wolf, but it would suggest he was | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
not part of a well-organised network. He did another evil with a | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
knife, but he could have been armed with more than that? After Paris, in | :35:29. | :35:38. | |
response to Paris, there was an increase across the United Kingdom | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
in armed police, increasing their capability. We have also done a | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
number of investigative intelligence operations, trying to find weapons. | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
I think we got over 800 weapons in a single one month operation. We have | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
taken off the streets and invested in armed police to detain that. -- | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
deter. Lets now pause and look back | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
at yesterday's terrible events Adam Fleming was in an around | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
Westminster yesterday afternoon and evening, | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
here's his report. The moment we knew something | :36:14. | :36:14. | |
was wrong - seriously wrong. On Westminster Bridge, | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
a car ploughed through tourists including some French students, | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
killing two people. The vehicle crashed into the fence | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
that surrounds Parliament. The scene, just inside the gates, | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
just moments later. The attacker on the ground, | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
a knife by his side. Meters away, the unarmed officer | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
who had stopped him getting into Parliament was being treated | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
by paramedics and a Government minister, | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
but they couldn't save his life. I am now going to suspend | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
the sitting of the house. This house is now suspended, | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
but please wait here. As Parliament froze in terror, | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
the Prime Minister was sped away There has been a serious | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
incident within the estate. It seems that a police | :37:10. | :37:19. | |
officer has been stabbed, that the alleged assailant was shot | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
by armed police. An air ambulance is currently | :37:22. | :37:34. | |
attending the scene. Across Parliament, hundreds | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
were marooned in lockdown. MPs, peers, staff, visitors - | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
including schoolchildren. Many were escorted across the roads | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
to Westminster Abbey, welcomed with coffee and a prayer | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
from the Dean. They emerged hours later, | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
after telling police The Prime Minister was only a few | :37:54. | :37:55. | |
feet in front of me when we came A huge member of her security | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
entourage went down and said something to her, and she said, | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
"Oh." So I think that's when people | :38:07. | :38:07. | |
realised there was something We are all able to walk out | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
of here tonight in darkness because a police officer has | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
put his life on the line That is a measure of just not | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
that police officer, but all of the people who have been | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
involved in this today. Thank you so much to all the police | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
and security services, really thinking of all of them, | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
and their colleague who didn't make Just immensely grateful | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
for all that they do, for all of us, putting their lives | :38:37. | :38:48. | |
on the line every day. Terrible, terrible day | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
here in Westminster. Then came responses from those | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
who run the country and the city. These street of Westminster, home | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
to the world's oldest Parliament, are ingrained with a spirit | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
of freedom that echoes in some of the furthest | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
corners of the globe. My message to those that | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
want to harm us and destroy our way of life is that you won't succeed, | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
you won't divide us. Scotland Yard gave information | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
about the police officer One of those who died today | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
was a police officer, PC Keith Palmer, a member | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
of our Parliamentary Keith, aged 48, had 15 years service | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
and was a husband and father. The authorities' assumption, | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
that this was a case A new day brought increased | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
security, as Met officers remembered their fallen colleague | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
with a minute's silence. Also observed in | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
the Commons chamber. Questions to the Secretary of State | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
for International Trade? Later, there is a debate | :39:56. | :40:04. | |
on next week's agenda, Business almost as usual, | :40:05. | :40:06. | |
defiance in a very Westminster way. The union flag still flying at | :40:07. | :40:22. | |
half-mast over the Palace of Westminster. We can now speak to | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
Gordon Corera, the BBC security correspondent. A moving story, what | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
are the most significant things we now know about what happened | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
yesterday? Two things have really come out this morning. First, we had | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
a statement, purporting to be from so-called Islamic State, saying that | :40:44. | :40:45. | |
the person who carried out the attack was responding to its call, | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
and that it was one of its, in its rays, soldiers. That does not | :40:51. | :40:52. | |
necessarily mean the group itself was in contact with it beforehand, | :40:53. | :41:02. | |
but it does imply there is some kind of inspiration linked to so-called | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
Islamic State. I think that is one significant development in the last | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
30 minutes or so. The other thing is a statement from the Prime Minister, | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
that this was an individual identified by the authorities, even | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
though they are not naming him, and was known to MI5, on the periphery | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
of a previous investigation. It was interesting that the authorities | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
decided to be proactive and say that early on, even before the name came | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
out. I think they realise it is something that will come out and | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
raise questions. If you like, they wanted to get ahead of that and say, | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
yes, we did know about this individual, but no, we did not know | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
about his intent to carry out the attack. I picking this up right, is | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
there a sense that he was on the MI5... Well, let me put it this way, | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
he was on MI5's radar sometime back, we don't know when, and maybe you | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
can tell us, but it looks like they concluded, among all of the | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
priorities and threats that they have to monitor, that he was pretty | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
far down the list, and therefore he dropped off the radar? Is that how | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
we see things? Yes, that is one way of putting it. I think a lot of | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
people come up in counterterrorism investigations. Say there is one | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
person who they consider is dangerous and plotting, they will | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
look at all of the associates of that individual. They might decide | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
some are dangerous, some are not, some they might watch for a while | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
and then there is no sign of activity, new priorities come up and | :42:32. | :42:33. | |
they will replace those where there has been no sign of intent. There is | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
a continuous process of prioritisation by MI5 and the police | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
of their surveillance resources and investigative resources. It has been | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
controversial in the past, because some of the July the 7th 2005 | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
attackers had been investigated in a previous inquiry, the year before. | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
The Woolwich attackers came up in previous investigations. You are | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
increasingly seeing this, that MI5 have noticed somebody. But it does | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
not mean they are always going to be followed all the time, the resources | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
are not there. The figure we had recently from the police is that | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
there are about 500, or more than 500, live investigations. You are | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
talking about thousands of people that they are constantly looking at | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
and trying to work out which ones are the priority. That doesn't mean | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
people will not question whether something did go wrong, whether | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
there are lessons to be learned. I think the response you are already | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
hearing from the authorities is that this was someone who was peripheral, | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
and therefore did not merit greater surveillance resources at the time | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
was since. Gordon, thank you very much. That was the BBC security | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
correspondent. We are joined from Edinburgh by Chris Phillips, who | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
spent seven years running the National Counterterrorism Security | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
Office. What analysis do you make of this attacker and its significance? | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
The most important thing to think of at this moment, and I have to say I | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
am a little bit disappointed by Laura Kuenssberg there, who is | :44:05. | :44:12. | |
already, less than 24 hours later, trying to apportion blame. She is | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
not, she is reporting what she knows. I think the fact we are | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
trying to make a big thing that there were no police officers with | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
guns there, I don't think it is appropriate at the moment, because | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
there were police officers with guns and this guy was stopped from | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
entering the Houses of Parliament. The important thing to realise is | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
that this type of attack that we have seen, with somebody driving on | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
the pavement, could be committed by pretty much anybody in this country. | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
You would have to have the intention and motivation, but it could be. It | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
is almost impossible to stop that. I don't think anybody is arguing with | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
that. We saw what happened in Nice as well. No free society can stop an | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
individual from deciding to drive their car or truck onto the pavement | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
and mowing people down indiscriminately. What I would like | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
to know, given your background, is... Will it be quite difficult for | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
the security services to establish whether he had a network or not? | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
Whether he was this loan will for was he part of a wider operation? -- | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
Lone Wolf. He only needed a car and knife, he didn't necessarily need to | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
be part of a network? Absolutely, that is the big difficulty with this | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
type of attack. However, the police and security services will be | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
looking very closely now at his past, who he has been talking to. | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
That is not aided by the difficulties that they have with | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
encryption of social media at the moment, which makes the job of the | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
police and security services in the investigation much more difficult. | :45:50. | :45:51. | |
But the important thing is to identify if there is people he is | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
linked to, and what their motivations are, whether they are | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
likely to do something like this. You know, well we call this a Lone | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
Wolf attack, it is very unlikely other people will not know. Those | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
are the people that can stop this, if they had known it was going to | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
happen, they could have made the phone call. Of course, but they | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
weren't going to stop him if they were complicit. That is what we need | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
to find out. One more question on this, just explain the significance, | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
I assume that it is standard practice that people can be on the | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
security services radar, and then they don't find something out, they | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
have to move resources, priorities elsewhere, so that people come in | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
and out of MI5 and other security services radar? | :46:40. | :46:47. | |
Absolutely and not only have we got people who have come back from | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
Warsaw but we have people released from prison is for terrorism | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
offences and are back in the community and show no signs of being | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
de-radicalised. Sheer weight of numbers of these people means that | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
some poor soul has two make a decision, a risk assessment decision | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
about who is most likely to commit and offence, there is a lot of | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
others to -- of that goes around that, but actually the resources | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
will never be enough to follow 4000 people. Thank you for joining us. | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
Let me go back to my guests, Emily, given what you've heard so far what | :47:31. | :47:40. | |
are your uppermost thoughts now? Two things, it's right we have to make | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
decisions about priorities but the net can be wider with greater | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
resources and I think we need to think about that but the second | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
thing, policing is most effective when you work with the community and | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
I think Putin, perhaps looking again at the engagement, the way in which | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
the government tries to engage with particular communities is not | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
working very well, I think that's important, and I think police can | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
only make us safe if we want to work with them. And the intelligence that | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
we can get from the community is important, good relationships need | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
to be there, people need to trust the police and we don't see as many | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
police on the streets any more, we don't see police doing football | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
matches and setting up boxing tournament and so on because | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
resources have been stripped. -- put in. That undermine security in a | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
software. Perfectly reasonable points to me, we don't know if any | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
of that is relevant to this attack. No, of course not but I'm just | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
saying... But it's a general point you are making. Iain Duncan Smith, | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
your thoughts? I think it's right that now is not the time to get into | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
the detail and figure out what went right or wrong or didn't happen but | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
I do think, the main point I take away is something a member of my | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
family is said to me over the last 24 hours, I have a daughter working | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
in Vancouver and they understand genuinely what the threat is, the | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
Public understands it's in a New World, the threat will go on and on | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
and we have a real problem defending ourselves against it and that is | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
going to be the big issue over time, the recognition first of all that a | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
low-key man in a car with a knife can create mayhem tells you that | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
this problem is a very large scale problem and whilst we want to make | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
sure we have the right resources we need to understand what that takes, | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
we are not a police state, we are a Free State and we believe in peoples | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
rights and freedoms in the balance between that is always a difficult | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
job for a government and I understand, other countries as you | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
know, you're much more towards the heavy-handed policing with | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
paramilitary police, we've never done that. For us, I think we get | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
the balance right and that's the key issue. Islamic State have made a | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
further statement and they said this attack which they are now taking | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
responsibility for was in response to their calls to targets are dozens | :50:08. | :50:15. | |
of the coalition forces in the Middle East and it seems these calls | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
came because the more Islamic State has been under attack in Iraq and | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
Mosul and also in Raqqa as well, the more they have tried to ignite the | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
worst in Europe and the United States to carry out attacks. They | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
are blaming that is part of what happened yesterday as part of that | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
strategy. Let's get more international response. Iain Duncan | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
Smith mentioned his daughter in Vancouver. | :50:42. | :50:43. | |
Leaders around the world have been quick to declare solidarity | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
with the UK following yesterday's attack in Westminster. | :50:47. | :50:47. | |
Many took to Twitter to express their condolences. | :50:48. | :50:49. | |
Here's Ellie with a summary of how the world responded. | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
Within hours of the attack world leaders have sent messages of | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
support. Donald Trump tweeted that he'd spoken to Theresa May to offer | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
his condolences. The victims are in our thoughts and prayers, the City | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
of London and Her Majesty is government have the Full Sutton port | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
of the US government in responding to the attack and bringing those to | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
justice you are responsible. It came a year to the day since the terror | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
attacks in Brussels, the President of the European Council tweeted that | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
Europe stood firm with the UK and was ready to help and this morning, | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
the President of the European Commission gave his reaction. Again | :51:31. | :51:43. | |
and again, we see this kind of event and I am really admiring the | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
resilience. This morning, the French Foreign Minister showed he stood | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
shoulder to shoulder with the British, watching on in Parliament. | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
Sir, we appreciate your presence and you're very fitting display of | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
solidarity with us. And in Paris last night this icon of France was | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
plunged into darkness as a mark of respect. And in Tel Aviv, the City | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Hall made this tribute to London. It's emerged that ensured that once | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
came from 11 different countries, international solidarity has been | :52:18. | :52:19. | |
offered from far and wide. That's the global reaction to what | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
happened yesterday. So what are the Government's options | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
in responding in terms of laws, policing and powers for the Security | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
Service. The cross-bench peer, Lord Carlile, | :52:31. | :52:32. | |
was the Government's Independent Reviewer | :52:33. | :52:34. | |
of Terrorism Legislation until 2011. Welcome to the programme. It's very | :52:35. | :52:46. | |
early days but do you have any thoughts in your mind is to what | :52:47. | :52:48. | |
policy prescription could now follow? I don't think we need much | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
change in the law, the law is robust, it was very carefully | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
considered by parliament last year and I agree with what Iain Duncan | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
Smith said yesterday about the quality of our laws and attitude. I | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
think we may have to look at the work done by the security services, | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
it is of very high quality, they are often the unsung heroes who protect | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
us but there is an issue about whether they have sufficient | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
resources. If somebody comes onto the radar have to make a judgement, | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
this said earlier the programme, maybe if they had some more money | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
and people they could hold people on their radar for longer and applied | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
the proportion of provisions of the investigatory Powers act for longer. | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
Hasn't it been the case that the intelligence services have had | :53:37. | :53:37. | |
massive increases in their budgets over the years because of the war on | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
terror has become not a boot is on the ground job any more, it is an | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
intelligence fight, and intelligence led fight now and that more | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
resources could obviously help but it seems to me, the amount of | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
resources, they could be infinite if you need to cover everybody? If I | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
may, there are two important points, the attrition on so-called Islamic | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
State which she mentioned a moment or two ago, is causing Islamic State | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
to radicalise people, to commit acts as individuals in countries like the | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
United Kingdom and the resources have to be proportionate to that. | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
The second thing that has happened is that for us when I started as | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
independent reviewer of terrorism legislation we were dealing mostly | :54:25. | :54:32. | |
with IED is, now we are dealing with cars and lorries, are more | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
ubiquitous threat and we have to equip them with resources to deal | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
with that threat. The intelligencer this is monitored chatter, that | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
often helps them, it all to them, they can monitor the movement of | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
funds and so on because that can often help them as well and we are | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
pretty good in this country compared to continental Europe on guns but if | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
the man is not armed with a gun and if he's not part or been ignited by | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
chatter coming out of Raqqa or somewhere else it's really tough, | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
one intelligence officer said to me this is a needle in a haystack, a | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
piece of hay in a haystack? It's right to say perpetrators are mostly | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
motivated by chatter, two people, if you forgive me, of our sort of age, | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
Andrew, to believe they would be radicalised by something on a screen | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
is almost unimaginable but it's true. I think it's worth reflecting | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
the security services in the United Kingdom and the government, in the | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
last six months or so have taken well over 50,000 sites of the | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
Internet and we have to keep up that effort as well. And that requires | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
resources. Thank you or being with us. MPs gathered in the House of | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
Commons this morning note a to maintain the appearance of business | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
as usual and after the prime ministers statement which we heard | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
earlier the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn offered his response to the | :56:01. | :56:01. | |
attacks yesterday. What happened yesterday, | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
within metres of where we sit now, The police are still piecing | :56:07. | :56:08. | |
together what took place It behoves us all not | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
to rush to judgment, but to wait for the police | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
to establish the facts, to stay united in our communities | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
and not allow fear or the voices Today, we are united by our humanity | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
and by our democratic values. And by that human | :56:27. | :56:38. | |
impulse of solidarity. To stand together, in times | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
of darkness and adversity. Mr Speaker, I express my condolences | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
to the family and friends of police officer Keith Palmer, | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
who gave his life yesterday in defence of the public | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
and of our democracy. And we're joined now | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
by the Labour MP Liam Byrne, who represents a Birmingham | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
constituency and who recently wrote a book on counter-extremism | :57:05. | :57:06. | |
and "winning the battle of ideas". How do you think the government | :57:07. | :57:16. | |
should respond to this sort of attack? We are moving into the new | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
face of this conflict, things coming together, about 50% of those | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
convicted of counter terrorism offences early in the century are | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
coming out of jail over the next couple of years, you have the risk | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
of claw-back of foreign fighters, radicalised, battle hardened but you | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
also have got the change in operational tactics by Isis IB -- as | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
they are disaggregated, the caliphate is becoming a virtual | :57:46. | :57:47. | |
caliphate and the messaging from the Middle East at the moment is no | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
longer come to build utopia in the caliphate, it's changed over the | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
last three months, sharply focused on this is how you commit a lone | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
wolf attack, this is the night to buy, the specification of HGV to | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
acquire, we are into a new phase and therefore our response has to | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
change. How does it change? Let's look at it from a community point of | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
view, Emily mentioned about community engagement, you are a MP, | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
the second city identified as a place where there are convicted | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
terrorists scum off what would you do? A couple of things, strengthened | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
the work we continue to do in schools, teachers do a great job but | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
very often they are not greatly supported by government policies, | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
for example, academies are able to opt out of delivering a balanced | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
religious education, that's not necessarily good. We don't have | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
universal community service, getting kids to mix with each other, the big | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
front this year is a different kind of approach to social media | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
companies, at the moment they are still the messaging command and | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
control structure of choice... And we just heard from Alex Carlile how | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
much influence they have. Terrorists have the golden hour, two and a half | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
to three hours to get something down once it goes up but they will often | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
get 30 to 50% of the messaging through in that time. Right now | :59:11. | :59:12. | |
companies like Google, Facebook, Apple don't have a team of engineers | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
figuring out how to solve this problem and frankly we need to get | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
on top of that and we need to get on top of them because they have not | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
taken this issue seriously enough. Thank you. Very interesting. | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
I'll be back this evening on BBC One with This Week | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
I'll be joined by Counter extremism expert Jonathan Russell, | :59:35. | :59:42. | |
actor, Simon Callow, commentator Miranda Green, | :59:43. | :59:44. | |
and journalist Quentin Letts, who watched yesterday's events | :59:45. | :59:47. |