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was apparently fake about child labour. | :00:04. | :00:13. | |
Time now for HARDtalk. Karl Marx may have told workers | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
they had nothing to lose but their chains but in 2011 the message from | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
the front line of the international union movement is Prius. Global | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
recession has quickened what appears to be a long-term decline | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
in union movement and now unions have a battle on their hands with | :00:32. | :00:39. | |
governments desperate to cut back public spending. My guest today is | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
a Sharan Burrow, the General Secretary of the International | :00:46. | :00:53. | |
Trade Union Confederation. Well the 20th -- I unions in the business of | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
managing decline or will the challenges of the 21st century make | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
:01:09. | :01:12. | ||
the movement more relevant than ever? | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
Sharon mac, welcome to HARDtalk. Why part unions in decline? We're | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
not in decline everywhere. We have the core business of recruiting | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
workers, that is a central pursue its -- purpose, to represent | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
workers. I took this job because we have a global struggle on our hands. | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
The economy is not working for working people. It has trebled in | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
size over past decades but we saw inequity before the global | :01:52. | :02:01. | |
financial crisis. Labour mobility became Labour enslavement in places | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
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like UHT -- UAE. We know that a move to put decent work in place in | :02:11. | :02:21. | |
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democracies - and that is what is spreading across North Africa -- - | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
union membership all over the developed world is going down all | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
over the world. That is not correct. In Australia | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
union membership has gone up after we experienced a decline. Come to | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
any country with me and see that unions are at the heart of whatever | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
is going on in the world of work, standing up for democracy and | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
dignity and the rights of people to a decent life. The global economy | :02:59. | :03:08. | |
:03:09. | :03:11. | ||
is not working for anyone. It may surprise you but the richest | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
billion or 2 billion people in the world and the poorest, the gap has | :03:16. | :03:24. | |
increased. That is not acceptable. These things have to be undone. | :03:24. | :03:34. | |
:03:34. | :03:37. | ||
Banker bashing is one done but how you make yourself small relevant? | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
Working people are feeling angry about stimulus payments. There was | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
at no time and understanding that that would largely bailout banks | :03:51. | :04:01. | |
:04:01. | :04:07. | ||
and not save jobs. We did save some jobs but in France and other places, | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
those governments know that unrest will continue to grow if we do not | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
seek job growth and youth unemployment tackled. But G20 did | :04:20. | :04:30. | |
:04:30. | :04:30. | ||
not mention jobs. That is not true. In Pittsburgh and London we talked | :04:30. | :04:40. | |
:04:40. | :04:41. | ||
about jobs. I am talking about Paris. From -- Nicolas Sarkozy has | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
said that there are three priorities. Jobs. Workers' rights. | :04:48. | :04:58. | |
:04:58. | :04:59. | ||
Also the mechanism that drive the economy, like a minimum wage. | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
economies have followed your prescription and have gone for a | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
large stimulus package, like the US. It has not seen the large jobs | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
creation of that Barack Obama and others wish for. It looks like a | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
jobless economy. We'd talked to the economists in the US and may have | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
differing views. They would say that too much went to bailing out | :05:29. | :05:37. | |
banks and not enough to jobs. But jobs were saved. If you do not | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
invest in jobs you'll not see sustainable growth. We say to the | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
G20 leaders that we want to see jobs protection at the heart of | :05:50. | :06:00. | |
economic policy. If you do not have that you're not sustain any type of | :06:00. | :06:10. | |
fiscal recovery. You are seeing many young people entering the | :06:10. | :06:18. | |
workforce which cannot accommodate them. Looking at how you do that, | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
coming back to the policy divide, because you take a government by | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
the UK that has gone against the stimulus idea and has prioritised | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
reducing the deficit, they say it is the private sector you must look | :06:33. | :06:42. | |
to to provide productive jobs. Unemployment is going down. | :06:43. | :06:52. | |
Employment is going up. economic outlook is very sluggish | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
and will not accommodate those jobs. We think the British Government has | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
got it absolutely wrong and the misery it is starting to cause for | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
the poorest people - who rely on services - is the extraordinary. | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
But unemployment is going down. When we see youth unemployment | :07:14. | :07:24. | |
:07:24. | :07:24. | ||
figures going down... Youth unemployment is now below what it | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
:07:34. | :07:36. | ||
was at the time of the election. is at 20s -- 20%. What will you say | :07:36. | :07:46. | |
:07:46. | :07:47. | ||
to parents? But it is going down. Look at the OECD figures and the | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
:07:57. | :08:00. | ||
IMF figures. The Director General of the OECD said that economics | :08:00. | :08:08. | |
must change. People living in Bulgaria on $2 pensions. You tell | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
me this is working for working people and I would take you to | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
Greece. Two nurses to have worked all of their lives and are seeing | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
their pensions cut. They know who is getting off scot-free. It is | :08:25. | :08:35. | |
:08:35. | :08:39. | ||
bankers. Growth globally is not nearly enough. In many of the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
developed economies the majority of your members are in the public | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
sector and the governments in question up - the Government's | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
fighting to keep their deficits under control - would say they are | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
facing a vested interest. Private sector workers have seen their pay | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
come down or frozen and a scene there pension benefits come down. | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
It is public sector employees you're sitting on privileges that | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
they can no longer enjoy. If we had a lot of time we could unpacked | :09:16. | :09:25. | |
that orthodox. Their private sector workers who are doing very well | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
with our assistance. There is a low-paid workforce who are not and | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
the message for that his social protection. What you mean by that? | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
75% of people have no social protection, no child protection. No | :09:46. | :09:56. | |
:09:56. | :09:57. | ||
welfare, note guarantee of work. This is an imbalance that is about | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
demand. Unless the G20 manages a coherent plan for social protection | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
and job growth then those global imbalances remain and that | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
threatens every economy. If you want to talk about the private | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
sector, they are lacking in responsibility. Take a major | :10:22. | :10:32. | |
:10:32. | :10:34. | ||
campaign. Telstra. Eight could company in Germany but they are | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
denying workers in the US the right to organise. These are corporate | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
citizens in Europe who say they are good companies. We do not accept | :10:46. | :10:56. | |
:10:56. | :10:58. | ||
that. But they have to compete against companies where others are | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
undercutting them. If you do not have fundamental rights at work, | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
where people are treated with dignity and can be sure of a | :11:08. | :11:17. | |
:11:18. | :11:21. | ||
minimum wage and collective bargaining rights... If you have | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
such gross inequality everywhere because you do not have union | :11:25. | :11:35. | |
:11:35. | :11:35. | ||
rights to collective bargaining - like in the US with the telecom | :11:35. | :11:44. | |
company is denying there workers that right... But we have to look | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
at the reality. We started talking about decline. Collective | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
bargaining rights are declining. That is the struggle we will take | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
gone. Corporate companies, one by one if necessary. You have to be | :12:02. | :12:12. | |
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inspired by the people in the Arab world with their revolutions. A | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
finest - finance minister says, if an economy is not working for jobs | :12:21. | :12:31. | |
:12:31. | :12:32. | ||
and social protection, the economy is not working. Unless governments | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
changed the model of Economics, unless they Leeson -- listen to the | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
leadership of the IMF that say that unemployment is a large driver of | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
vulnerability, we are rolling for a rough ride. No-one would disagree | :12:53. | :13:02. | |
with those overall objectives, it is how to get there. A quote - | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
unions have a tendency to sacrifice future generations to current | :13:08. | :13:16. | |
generations since only the current generation is voting. Governments | :13:16. | :13:26. | |
:13:26. | :13:43. | ||
can no longer borrow their way into But is less than the Bank has got | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
from the bail-outs over the last few years. A couple of percentage | :13:48. | :13:55. | |
points of GDP would provide the social protection. The | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
prescriptions are absolutely there. The green economy is something | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
everyone is signed up to. But we are talking about sovereign | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
national debt and that his Government's saying they do not | :14:13. | :14:21. | |
have the money to pay public sector union members the kind of pay and | :14:21. | :14:30. | |
pensions they are talking about. In Greece there is a law against | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
sacking government workers purely on the basis of poor performance | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
for some employers want to be able to hire and fire at will. Today you | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
are making work, tomorrow you are not because we don't like the cover | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
of your hair. But you can manage performance. No question about that. | :14:50. | :14:59. | |
I manage a business myself. I know had to do that. Sovereign debt. In | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
Greece, look at the OECD figures. If everyone in Greece paid their | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
taxes that country would have 30 billion more in their coffers. They | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
would not have sovereign debt. Is it better to make that reform | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
through growth in jobs where you can sustain the future or to cut | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
the economy so that future generations will never have a | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
chance to get a job. These problems can't be solved by | :15:31. | :15:41. | |
collecting taxes. The OECD has said the debt level is expected to rise | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
to 120 % of GDP by 2014. That is unsustainable. I am agreeing with | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
you that I have been part of a movement that helped to restructure | :15:52. | :16:02. | |
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the Australian economy. And look at itself. It has some vulnerabilities, | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
but it is one of the most sustainable economies in the globe. | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
What is a better recipe for what our children? Why is it that | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
governments will not stand up to the bond markets. It is not | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
governments making these decisions, it is the bond agencies engaging in | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
speculative behaviour will wither interest rate swaps and the like. | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
It looks like derivatives at the heart of the financial crisis. | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
is very convenient to make the financial sector the villain. I am | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
not going to sit here and defend them. On but it is not acceptable | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
to say that that is the whole of the problem. The fact is, taxpayers | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
are bedding out the banks and it looks as if they will have to bail | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
out some of the privileged public sector jobs. You mention Australia | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
and sustainable economic performance. But some would say | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
that is on the back of natural resources going to China. That is | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
driving Australian economic performance. Are you satisfied with | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
the Union performance in China? First of all let me go back to your | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
point. I don't except for a minute that public sector workers are | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
privileged workers. Would you really want a society we do not | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
have teachers or nurses. Where they can live with dignity and get | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
decent pensions. I think you and I are actually agreeing. While the | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
bank is do not carry full responsibility, their speculative | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
activity brought us to the brink. They were 40% of investment in the | :17:50. | :18:00. | |
:18:00. | :18:06. | ||
real economy. The real economy 60%. that's not what governments were | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
elected to do. They stand up to the bond markets and saying: We will | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
deal with our financial issues leveraged of growth that comes from | :18:18. | :18:28. | |
:18:28. | :18:28. | ||
employment that gives our children and grandchildren opportunities. | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
There are issues right around Europe at the moment with regard to | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
rights. The financial sector attacked the rights of union | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
workers. On China does not want to be a low wage economy. They could | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
potentially have better collective bargaining rights within a decade | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
than the US. That is the wealth distribution mechanism we take that | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
money from the to be in richest, we distributed and build a demand base. | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
Who is going to buy the products is workers do not have a sustainable | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
income. The private sector cannot sustain an economy based on a lack | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
of income for workers. And yet, you say that. I make challenging the | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
way that I do. But at the end of the day public opinion will beaky | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
to his argument wins between you and those private sector economies. | :19:28. | :19:37. | |
A recent poll in the US. A majority felt that unions reduced the number | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
of good jobs in a country and harm to America's competitiveness in the | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
global economy. I have a different view to that. On the contrary I | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
would say: If you are squeaking people if they want a secured jobs | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
and income, if they believe they should have a fair share of | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
productivity. Look different countries. In three decades the | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
share of wages has decreased by more than 10% despite the fact that | :20:05. | :20:15. | |
the economy doubled in dollar terms. Why he's membership on the decline? | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
Come with me again to a number of countries. You said wages were not | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
holding up in the UK. But surely it's off the back of that that is | :20:26. | :20:36. | |
too -- historically the union movement has flourished. That is | :20:36. | :20:46. | |
:20:46. | :20:47. | ||
our job. To bargain for wages, to see people have equal opportunity. | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
On the experience is very. Our core businesses recruiting a new | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
generation of workers. I could show you are decisions for life project | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
organising young women in some of the poorest countries. 100,000 | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
people have organised around issues for them. Income, freedom from | :21:10. | :21:19. | |
discrimination. On public sector strikes this year. Is there a | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
danger that by pushing too hard you create a government backlash. The | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
UK government has warned that if the public sector unions pushed too | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
hard and create major disruption they will introduce anti- strike | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
legislation. If governments have to resort to taking away fundamental | :21:40. | :21:49. | |
rights of workers who paid are saying to work longer and have less | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
dignity in retirement when they have given their whole lives to | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
looking after us. Even if their benefits, pay and job security is | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
far outstripping the private sector. The public in general may view | :22:07. | :22:17. | |
:22:17. | :22:22. | ||
public sector workers as in some corners an elite workforce. It -- | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
governments want to pit worker against worker. We have to raise | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
jobs to the level of decent work everywhere. President Sarkozy sat | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
down with us last weekend talked about rights and said to the G20 | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
leaders: You must have care he rents. We have to build an economy | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
based on fundamental dignity and rights. That's what our | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
grandchildren one to hear. That's what we want to be part of. Let's | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
work through a strategy but let's not blame the people whose money | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
bailed out the banks and let the bank has simply run free and let | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
governments say, it's not an our full. The public are the people you | :23:12. | :23:20. | |
use public transport. If they get hit with strikes Arvo strikes | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
always right? Should the public be backing public sector workers in | :23:27. | :23:37. | |
:23:37. | :23:42. | ||
every case? -- are those strikes always right? If they will not sit | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
at the table then workers will have no choice. It is a last resort for | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
any wicket, particularly those looking after people in hospitals | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
or schools. If you do not have a government that treats workers with | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
dignity then what is their choice but to stand up for themselves and | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
for future generations of otherwise you will never get people to be | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
teachers or nurses. We do not want to see strikes but we want to see | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
governments with real growth plans for real jobs for the new paradigm | :24:15. | :24:21. |