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Minister. Welcome to HARDtalk. He started the Arab Spring in Tunisia, | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
that eights months on, things are not looking very good. Why? | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
depends how you look at them. Some think the interim government has | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
done a fantastic job, maintaining the country running adequately for | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
the last six months. We saw teargas, Batten's used by security forces | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
against demonstrators right across the country. Outside the Ministry | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
of the interior. Tanks and so on. People saying that they were not | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
happy. They were not happy for specific things. Last week they | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
felt that the traditional system needs to be reformed more. And that | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
the judicial system has to be done as quickly as possible. We will | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
talk about the need for reform of the judiciary, but it is broader | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
than that. One demonstrator told Reuters that nothing has changed. | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
He said the government should leave right now. The biggest challenge we | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
:01:20. | :01:22. | ||
have is managing expectations, particularly among the youths. They | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
took the ownership of it. And they have expectations. They want things | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
to change right here, right now. That is very challenging in such a | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
short period of time. Democratic conditions in other countries took | :01:43. | :01:50. | |
many years. Eight he is in Portugal, 15 years in Brazil. -- eight years | :01:50. | :01:59. | |
in Portugal. We tried to tell them that they must be patient. Change | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
cannot happen overnight. They are saying to you that they feel fed up, | :02:05. | :02:12. | |
marginalised. The protests are about a lack of housing, healthcare, | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
water, transportation. They are even asking for the interim Prime | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
:02:28. | :02:28. | ||
Minister it to step down. That is a pretty see the judgement and not | :02:28. | :02:38. | |
the view of the majority of Tunisia's. If you speak to | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
demonstrators they will tell you those things. But the majority of | :02:42. | :02:50. | |
she nations will say, we are not totally satisfied, but things are | :02:50. | :03:00. | |
:03:00. | :03:11. | ||
improving. -- the majority of Tunisians. He took about the youth, | :03:11. | :03:21. | |
very much the Arab Spring has been led by the youth. They are the ones | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
with the grievances, so no wonder they are feeling the ground. -- | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
feeling the brunt. I perfectly understand their grievances. They | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
must be patient because the change will not take place quickly. The | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
interim government has taking emergency measures to alleviate | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
some of the problems that the Government has inherited. We have | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
to recognise that the long-term solutions take some time to be | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
implemented. Let's look at some of the figures. Tourism has gone down | :04:05. | :04:15. | |
:04:15. | :04:17. | ||
60%. 1445 %. The Governor of the Central Bank has said you need an | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
extra $1 billion. Where will that money come from? Things are worse | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
financially than before the revolution because you have lost | :04:27. | :04:37. | |
:04:37. | :04:39. | ||
the tourism revenue. Yes. We were in a position to tackle the | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
financial that successfully. Our two main partners are the World | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
Bank and the African Development Bank. They put in place a $2 | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
billion facility. There was also money from the European Union and | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
other sources. That helped us cover the immediate cash needs. Despite | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
the problems than the cost of the revolution so far we will finish | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
the year with a budget deficit of no more than 5%. You need this | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
money now because the impatience of the people is running high. You say | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
these solutions take time and domestic and foreign investors are | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
saying: We want to see what stability is in Tunisia before we | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
commit new funds. The money has gone down from what it was before | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
the revolution. The interim government has formulated a plan | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
which calls for major investments in the country. They are to be made | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
by using a new tills which the country did not have before large | :05:55. | :06:05. | |
:06:05. | :06:07. | ||
investment vehicles. -- by using new tools. A deposit vehicle has | :06:07. | :06:17. | |
:06:17. | :06:18. | ||
been established, similarly to France, Morocco etcetera. The money | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
will come from deposits and it will be used as a vehicle to invest in | :06:25. | :06:35. | |
two areas. One is infrastructure and promoting small and medium | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
enterprises. Are you doing enough? One economist at the University of | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
Tunis said that investors have relied too much on the market and | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
that these few infrastructure programs are too late or | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
insufficient and will not create enough short-term gains. I would | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
invite him to look at the program because there is another vehicle we | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
are creating which will rely more on private investments. The | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
government will play the role up an investor, helping the private | :07:13. | :07:21. | |
investors career he projects. It takes 50,000 dinars, $40,000, to | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
create a permanent job in the country. We have 70,000 unemployed. | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
You do the maths. You, as Finance Minister, could you personally have | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
pushed much more quickly for large- scale projects that would have | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
created these badly-needed jobs? Could you have done more? But could | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
not have done more. It takes time just to set up these are very large | :07:53. | :08:00. | |
investment vehicles. That has taken months. What we have done as an | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
interim government I am not trying to justify. But in reforming some | :08:05. | :08:15. | |
of the regulatory frameworks and initiating investment vehicles that | :08:15. | :08:25. | |
it not exist in the country. We need the next government to carry | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
on this program. Have you made any groundwork for her the Tunisian | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
economy could flourish in the future? You have been extremely | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
dependent on tourism. Have you value added any activities like | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
textiles, which you export to the European Union. Of course the | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
European Union is also in trouble. Have you a grand vision? House the | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
plan, known as a Chapel End plan, calls for an improved technology | :09:01. | :09:10. | |
component. -- javelin plan. The value adding and technology | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
component is 25%. Those are some of the objectives in a our 5-year plan. | :09:18. | :09:27. | |
Have you got the right workforce with the technology and linguistic | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
skills? Obviously we have to be careful to attract the right people. | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
Some of these vehicles are for structured finance and we need | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
people knowledgeable in these fields. We believe we have very | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
good Tunisians but if need be we may even call on specialists from | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
outside. Your message to these protesters who want things now is, | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
there is no short-term fix. The patient. They are or Sirte object | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
into the fact that they have not seen justice in their country. -- | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
there are also objecting to the fact. One said that Mubarak is up | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
before the court. Why is it that Tunisia, the source of the | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
revolution, these things did not work out. The former president is | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
in Saudi Arabia. A so said before, if you ask a demonstrator they will | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
tell you these things. They watch TV and see things they have not | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
seen in their own country. the route to Tunisia took is very | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
different from the one that it Egypt took. We have decided to go | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
the long way in our democratic transition. The interim government | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
is in a state of low. The separation of the judicial system | :11:05. | :11:15. | |
:11:15. | :11:18. | ||
Do you mean that it does not matter Ben Ali did not stand trial in his | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
own country? Do think the protesters are wrong? He is | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
standing trial. Not physically. is not physically in Tunisia. | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
that a pity? Of course. The two nations and the government has made | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
every effort to bring him back to two new chef. -- the people of | :11:38. | :11:48. | |
:11:48. | :11:50. | ||
Tunisia and the government. They are not giving him back to us. We | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
have created some independent commissioners who are taking care | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
of all of these things. The process is long. The Jody -- judicial | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
process can be long. But it is not to say that all people involved are | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
not making every effort. They are working hard. The process that we | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
have undertaken in Tunisia is very different from the one the | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
Egyptians are pursuing. What do you mean? The Egyptians have put | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
Mubarak and his associates on trial. You are letting that people who | :12:26. | :12:34. | |
associate with the Ben Ali off Scot free? Most of them are in jail. | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
They are being appropriately tried. The only difference is that Ben Ali | :12:39. | :12:48. | |
is not in the country. But even in absentia he has been going through | :12:48. | :12:58. | |
:12:58. | :13:00. | ||
trials. We are letting the judicial system do its thing. Have you read | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
what the Tunisians are saying on the internet? I will give you one | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
example. One wrote about the demonstrations against the | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
judiciary. Lawyers and thousands of demonstrators are still calling for | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
the bringing to justice of all those who wasted public money and | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
did he do their hands with martyrs' blight were involved in the jailing | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
and torturing innocent people. He said that on 8th August. That is | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
quite typical. People are saying that they do not see the wheels of | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
justice in motion at all. They are angry. They are angry. They are all | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
angry. All of those who have gone through the process of trying to | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
come to grips with the expectations of the people of Tunisia, we are | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
all frustrated. But you have to understand that these things take | :13:56. | :14:06. | |
:14:06. | :14:08. | ||
time. We're not going to leave a single don't -- stone. We are going | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
through the process in a very systematic way. In my ministry, we | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
do work. It takes time to do the files, to go through the files and | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
investigations. But it is being done. It is being totally done. | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
What about the missing millions of Ben Ali? How much is he supposed to | :14:28. | :14:38. | |
have? The French France -- branch says that he and his wife | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
controlled something like 40% of the economy and they think $10 | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
billion is unaccounted for. What are the missing billions? I think | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
that is sheer speculation. We do not know what the figure is. As the | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
minister of finance, you do not know how much. I wish I could | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
control the finances, then I would be able to give you the figure. We | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
:15:10. | :15:13. | ||
do not know. We are going about that in the same a professional and | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
meticulous way as we are everything else. We are working with | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
professional cabinets. But you must know the assets he had inside the | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
country and that of his family. Can you not seize those and freeze | :15:25. | :15:35. | |
them? Most of those have been frozen anyway. Inside Tunisia? | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
If how much inside Tunisia did he have? It is a bit difficult to put | :15:39. | :15:46. | |
a figure because you have to go to the valuation process. All of those | :15:46. | :15:54. | |
assets that his family in particular had, including company | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
:16:04. | :16:05. | ||
is, cash and stocks and bonds, real estate and other types of assets. | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
We are identifying them. I think we have identified most of them. There | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
is a commission that has been set up that is in charge of the | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
confiscation of those. Have they not been confiscated yet? Yes. They | :16:21. | :16:29. | |
have. They're going to the second phase now. I chair the commission | :16:29. | :16:39. | |
:16:39. | :16:39. | ||
personally. It's are you going to sell the assets? We may sell them. | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
We may keep them. We may introduce the companies to the Stock Exchange. | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
How much was it? I gave you a figure of $10 billion a tribute to | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
to the French brands of Transparency International. | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
guess would be south of 5 billion. Have you asked overseas banks | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
regarding the overseas assets? do not have any idea about that. | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
says from a San that he has no money in foreign banks. -- from | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
exile. I did not expecting to say anything else. We have to go | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
through the process. We are covering all of the countries in | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
which assets might exist. We will go about it in a systematic way. | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
will take time. Have you asked foreign government? Yes. What have | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
they said? Most of them have expressed their readiness to help. | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
You are part of the interim government that is in place in | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
Tunisia. In late October there will be elections in the country to | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
elect a new body that is going to draw up a new constitution. It will | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
be quite a party. The country is not used to multi-party democracy | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
of -- democracy. You have more than 100 parties registered. That will | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
be chaotic and confusing. That is a concern but it is part of the | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
democratic process. Tunisia is a democracy. Day after day we are | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
going through the journey. A list of 105 countries that people -- | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
parties that people can vote for? think many of those parties will | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
probably form groupings. We expect that to take place. Many of those | :18:29. | :18:39. | |
parties will probably team up. Four or five or six large blocks. One we | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
know about is the Islamist party led by someone who has been in | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
exile in England for many years. Nobody really knows but it is | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
thought they may get something like 20 possibly 30% of the vote. That | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
will give a pretty Islamist tinge to the new body drawing up the | :18:58. | :19:06. | |
constitution. Indeed. Only the votes will confirm that. Are you | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
worried? A lot of women's groups are. The Tunisian constitution | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
safeguards women's rights. There is no polygamy allowed. Their | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
inheritance rights laws are not good. Women cannot marry before the | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
age of 18 and so on. Is that sort of thing going to be compromised? | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
Whether that is totally justified remains to be seen. There is worry | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
amongst women. Tunisia boasts to be the first Arab country to have | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
equal rights for men and women. We are very proud. You will not throw | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
out the baby with the bathwater? It was quoted in the FT, they have | :19:54. | :20:01. | |
been around for a while as a party. They believe they can make | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
improvements to democracy with in an Islamic context in Tunisia. | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
sentence needs to be analysed. What does that mean? To what extent does | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
the Islamic context translate itself into new rules of the game. | :20:19. | :20:28. | |
We do not know that yet. I can tell you that there is a lot of | :20:28. | :20:35. | |
questions being asked. On this specific issue of women's rights, | :20:35. | :20:44. | |
they are worried women's rights organisations will face a loss of | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
the gains made in previous decades. There has been something fantastic | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
in our country. Women play an important role in the civil society. | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
We expect the environment in Tunisia to be influenced by a | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
variety of forces. Political forces but also the civil society will | :21:09. | :21:16. | |
play an important role. To what extent the civil society and the | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
emergence of civil society will deter any extremist movements is | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
something to be kept in mind. must ask you about Libya. On your | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
border, 90,000 Libyans inside your country. What is your feeling about | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
what will happen? People are talking about the beginning of the | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
end for Gaddafi. Tunisia is playing host to talks between the two sides | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
mediated by the Venezuela in mediator. We have heard lots of | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
news come in bits and pieces. Libya had a very adverse effect on the | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
country on tourism. It had an adverse effect on the trade flows | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
and investments between the two countries. More importantly, we | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
feel very bad about the situation there. Don't forget that Libyans | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
are... You want to see peace there but you cannot give us any insider | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
track as to whether things are been rattling for Gaddafi? I think once | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
the settles down in Libya, it will have a beneficial effect in Tunisia. | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
Is the Jasmin revolution beginning to smell bad now? No. It still | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
smells like jazzman. Either way, it is the season for jazzman. If you | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
go to Tunisia, you will smell it all over the place. The revolution | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
was a starting point. The democratic transition that we are | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
going through is going to be painful. It has always been painful. | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
It will not be any different in Tunisia. But it is a process that | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
is going to be successful in the end because we have the proper | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
ingredients in the country to make it a success. Jalloul Ayed, Thank | :23:00. | :23:10. | |
:23:10. | :23:23. | ||
you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank It's northern and western parts of | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
the British what -- are as are in for a quiet night by the south-east | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
and much of central and southern Britain will get off to a wet start. | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
Conditions like that widely there all the way from East Devon up | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
through the Midlands towards Lincolnshire and following on | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
behind that initial reign there will be some heavy downpours and a | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
lot of thunder and lightning. We could see it a couple of inches in | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
rain in some locations. Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales were the | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
most part getting away with one of too scattered showers and a bit of | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
brightness. By Wednesday we will see that area of cloud and rain | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
pushing off to the North Sea. But moving in from the west. A band of | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
weather across Scotland and the northern fringes of Wales gradually | :24:11. | :24:16. |