Jalloul Ayed, Tunisia's Finance Minister HARDtalk


Jalloul Ayed, Tunisia's Finance Minister

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Minister. Welcome to HARDtalk. He started the Arab Spring in Tunisia,

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that eights months on, things are not looking very good. Why?

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depends how you look at them. Some think the interim government has

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done a fantastic job, maintaining the country running adequately for

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the last six months. We saw teargas, Batten's used by security forces

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against demonstrators right across the country. Outside the Ministry

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of the interior. Tanks and so on. People saying that they were not

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happy. They were not happy for specific things. Last week they

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felt that the traditional system needs to be reformed more. And that

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the judicial system has to be done as quickly as possible. We will

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talk about the need for reform of the judiciary, but it is broader

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than that. One demonstrator told Reuters that nothing has changed.

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He said the government should leave right now. The biggest challenge we

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have is managing expectations, particularly among the youths. They

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took the ownership of it. And they have expectations. They want things

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to change right here, right now. That is very challenging in such a

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short period of time. Democratic conditions in other countries took

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many years. Eight he is in Portugal, 15 years in Brazil. -- eight years

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in Portugal. We tried to tell them that they must be patient. Change

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cannot happen overnight. They are saying to you that they feel fed up,

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marginalised. The protests are about a lack of housing, healthcare,

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water, transportation. They are even asking for the interim Prime

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:02:28.:02:28.

Minister it to step down. That is a pretty see the judgement and not

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the view of the majority of Tunisia's. If you speak to

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demonstrators they will tell you those things. But the majority of

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she nations will say, we are not totally satisfied, but things are

:02:50.:03:00.
:03:00.:03:11.

improving. -- the majority of Tunisians. He took about the youth,

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very much the Arab Spring has been led by the youth. They are the ones

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with the grievances, so no wonder they are feeling the ground. --

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feeling the brunt. I perfectly understand their grievances. They

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must be patient because the change will not take place quickly. The

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interim government has taking emergency measures to alleviate

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some of the problems that the Government has inherited. We have

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to recognise that the long-term solutions take some time to be

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implemented. Let's look at some of the figures. Tourism has gone down

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60%. 1445 %. The Governor of the Central Bank has said you need an

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extra $1 billion. Where will that money come from? Things are worse

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financially than before the revolution because you have lost

:04:27.:04:37.
:04:37.:04:39.

the tourism revenue. Yes. We were in a position to tackle the

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financial that successfully. Our two main partners are the World

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Bank and the African Development Bank. They put in place a $2

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billion facility. There was also money from the European Union and

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other sources. That helped us cover the immediate cash needs. Despite

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the problems than the cost of the revolution so far we will finish

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the year with a budget deficit of no more than 5%. You need this

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money now because the impatience of the people is running high. You say

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these solutions take time and domestic and foreign investors are

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saying: We want to see what stability is in Tunisia before we

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commit new funds. The money has gone down from what it was before

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the revolution. The interim government has formulated a plan

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which calls for major investments in the country. They are to be made

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by using a new tills which the country did not have before large

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investment vehicles. -- by using new tools. A deposit vehicle has

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been established, similarly to France, Morocco etcetera. The money

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will come from deposits and it will be used as a vehicle to invest in

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two areas. One is infrastructure and promoting small and medium

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enterprises. Are you doing enough? One economist at the University of

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Tunis said that investors have relied too much on the market and

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that these few infrastructure programs are too late or

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insufficient and will not create enough short-term gains. I would

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invite him to look at the program because there is another vehicle we

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are creating which will rely more on private investments. The

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government will play the role up an investor, helping the private

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investors career he projects. It takes 50,000 dinars, $40,000, to

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create a permanent job in the country. We have 70,000 unemployed.

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You do the maths. You, as Finance Minister, could you personally have

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pushed much more quickly for large- scale projects that would have

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created these badly-needed jobs? Could you have done more? But could

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not have done more. It takes time just to set up these are very large

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investment vehicles. That has taken months. What we have done as an

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interim government I am not trying to justify. But in reforming some

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of the regulatory frameworks and initiating investment vehicles that

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it not exist in the country. We need the next government to carry

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on this program. Have you made any groundwork for her the Tunisian

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economy could flourish in the future? You have been extremely

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dependent on tourism. Have you value added any activities like

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textiles, which you export to the European Union. Of course the

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European Union is also in trouble. Have you a grand vision? House the

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plan, known as a Chapel End plan, calls for an improved technology

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component. -- javelin plan. The value adding and technology

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component is 25%. Those are some of the objectives in a our 5-year plan.

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Have you got the right workforce with the technology and linguistic

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skills? Obviously we have to be careful to attract the right people.

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Some of these vehicles are for structured finance and we need

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people knowledgeable in these fields. We believe we have very

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good Tunisians but if need be we may even call on specialists from

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outside. Your message to these protesters who want things now is,

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there is no short-term fix. The patient. They are or Sirte object

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into the fact that they have not seen justice in their country. --

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there are also objecting to the fact. One said that Mubarak is up

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before the court. Why is it that Tunisia, the source of the

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revolution, these things did not work out. The former president is

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in Saudi Arabia. A so said before, if you ask a demonstrator they will

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tell you these things. They watch TV and see things they have not

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seen in their own country. the route to Tunisia took is very

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different from the one that it Egypt took. We have decided to go

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the long way in our democratic transition. The interim government

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is in a state of low. The separation of the judicial system

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Do you mean that it does not matter Ben Ali did not stand trial in his

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own country? Do think the protesters are wrong? He is

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standing trial. Not physically. is not physically in Tunisia.

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that a pity? Of course. The two nations and the government has made

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every effort to bring him back to two new chef. -- the people of

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Tunisia and the government. They are not giving him back to us. We

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have created some independent commissioners who are taking care

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of all of these things. The process is long. The Jody -- judicial

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process can be long. But it is not to say that all people involved are

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not making every effort. They are working hard. The process that we

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have undertaken in Tunisia is very different from the one the

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Egyptians are pursuing. What do you mean? The Egyptians have put

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Mubarak and his associates on trial. You are letting that people who

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associate with the Ben Ali off Scot free? Most of them are in jail.

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They are being appropriately tried. The only difference is that Ben Ali

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is not in the country. But even in absentia he has been going through

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trials. We are letting the judicial system do its thing. Have you read

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what the Tunisians are saying on the internet? I will give you one

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example. One wrote about the demonstrations against the

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judiciary. Lawyers and thousands of demonstrators are still calling for

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the bringing to justice of all those who wasted public money and

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did he do their hands with martyrs' blight were involved in the jailing

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and torturing innocent people. He said that on 8th August. That is

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quite typical. People are saying that they do not see the wheels of

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justice in motion at all. They are angry. They are angry. They are all

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angry. All of those who have gone through the process of trying to

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come to grips with the expectations of the people of Tunisia, we are

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all frustrated. But you have to understand that these things take

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time. We're not going to leave a single don't -- stone. We are going

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through the process in a very systematic way. In my ministry, we

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do work. It takes time to do the files, to go through the files and

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investigations. But it is being done. It is being totally done.

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What about the missing millions of Ben Ali? How much is he supposed to

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have? The French France -- branch says that he and his wife

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controlled something like 40% of the economy and they think $10

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billion is unaccounted for. What are the missing billions? I think

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that is sheer speculation. We do not know what the figure is. As the

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minister of finance, you do not know how much. I wish I could

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control the finances, then I would be able to give you the figure. We

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do not know. We are going about that in the same a professional and

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meticulous way as we are everything else. We are working with

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professional cabinets. But you must know the assets he had inside the

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country and that of his family. Can you not seize those and freeze

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them? Most of those have been frozen anyway. Inside Tunisia?

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If how much inside Tunisia did he have? It is a bit difficult to put

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a figure because you have to go to the valuation process. All of those

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assets that his family in particular had, including company

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is, cash and stocks and bonds, real estate and other types of assets.

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We are identifying them. I think we have identified most of them. There

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is a commission that has been set up that is in charge of the

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confiscation of those. Have they not been confiscated yet? Yes. They

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have. They're going to the second phase now. I chair the commission

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personally. It's are you going to sell the assets? We may sell them.

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We may keep them. We may introduce the companies to the Stock Exchange.

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How much was it? I gave you a figure of $10 billion a tribute to

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to the French brands of Transparency International.

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guess would be south of 5 billion. Have you asked overseas banks

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regarding the overseas assets? do not have any idea about that.

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says from a San that he has no money in foreign banks. -- from

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exile. I did not expecting to say anything else. We have to go

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through the process. We are covering all of the countries in

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which assets might exist. We will go about it in a systematic way.

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will take time. Have you asked foreign government? Yes. What have

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they said? Most of them have expressed their readiness to help.

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You are part of the interim government that is in place in

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Tunisia. In late October there will be elections in the country to

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elect a new body that is going to draw up a new constitution. It will

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be quite a party. The country is not used to multi-party democracy

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of -- democracy. You have more than 100 parties registered. That will

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be chaotic and confusing. That is a concern but it is part of the

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democratic process. Tunisia is a democracy. Day after day we are

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going through the journey. A list of 105 countries that people --

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parties that people can vote for? think many of those parties will

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probably form groupings. We expect that to take place. Many of those

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parties will probably team up. Four or five or six large blocks. One we

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know about is the Islamist party led by someone who has been in

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exile in England for many years. Nobody really knows but it is

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thought they may get something like 20 possibly 30% of the vote. That

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will give a pretty Islamist tinge to the new body drawing up the

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constitution. Indeed. Only the votes will confirm that. Are you

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worried? A lot of women's groups are. The Tunisian constitution

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safeguards women's rights. There is no polygamy allowed. Their

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inheritance rights laws are not good. Women cannot marry before the

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age of 18 and so on. Is that sort of thing going to be compromised?

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Whether that is totally justified remains to be seen. There is worry

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amongst women. Tunisia boasts to be the first Arab country to have

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equal rights for men and women. We are very proud. You will not throw

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out the baby with the bathwater? It was quoted in the FT, they have

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been around for a while as a party. They believe they can make

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improvements to democracy with in an Islamic context in Tunisia.

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sentence needs to be analysed. What does that mean? To what extent does

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the Islamic context translate itself into new rules of the game.

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We do not know that yet. I can tell you that there is a lot of

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questions being asked. On this specific issue of women's rights,

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they are worried women's rights organisations will face a loss of

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the gains made in previous decades. There has been something fantastic

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in our country. Women play an important role in the civil society.

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We expect the environment in Tunisia to be influenced by a

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variety of forces. Political forces but also the civil society will

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play an important role. To what extent the civil society and the

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emergence of civil society will deter any extremist movements is

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something to be kept in mind. must ask you about Libya. On your

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border, 90,000 Libyans inside your country. What is your feeling about

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what will happen? People are talking about the beginning of the

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end for Gaddafi. Tunisia is playing host to talks between the two sides

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mediated by the Venezuela in mediator. We have heard lots of

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news come in bits and pieces. Libya had a very adverse effect on the

:21:56.:22:01.

country on tourism. It had an adverse effect on the trade flows

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and investments between the two countries. More importantly, we

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feel very bad about the situation there. Don't forget that Libyans

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are... You want to see peace there but you cannot give us any insider

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track as to whether things are been rattling for Gaddafi? I think once

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the settles down in Libya, it will have a beneficial effect in Tunisia.

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Is the Jasmin revolution beginning to smell bad now? No. It still

:22:31.:22:35.

smells like jazzman. Either way, it is the season for jazzman. If you

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go to Tunisia, you will smell it all over the place. The revolution

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was a starting point. The democratic transition that we are

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going through is going to be painful. It has always been painful.

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It will not be any different in Tunisia. But it is a process that

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is going to be successful in the end because we have the proper

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ingredients in the country to make it a success. Jalloul Ayed, Thank

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:23:10.:23:23.

you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank It's northern and western parts of

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the British what -- are as are in for a quiet night by the south-east

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and much of central and southern Britain will get off to a wet start.

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Conditions like that widely there all the way from East Devon up

:23:36.:23:39.

through the Midlands towards Lincolnshire and following on

:23:39.:23:43.

behind that initial reign there will be some heavy downpours and a

:23:43.:23:47.

lot of thunder and lightning. We could see it a couple of inches in

:23:47.:23:54.

rain in some locations. Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales were the

:23:54.:23:57.

most part getting away with one of too scattered showers and a bit of

:23:57.:24:01.

brightness. By Wednesday we will see that area of cloud and rain

:24:01.:24:06.

pushing off to the North Sea. But moving in from the west. A band of

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weather across Scotland and the northern fringes of Wales gradually

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