Amr Moussa, Secretary General of the Arab League, 2001 - 2011 HARDtalk


Amr Moussa, Secretary General of the Arab League, 2001 - 2011

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Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk, on the shores of Lake

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Como in northern Italy. My guest today genet here from Cairo. Amr

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Moussa is widely tipped to beat Egypt's next President. He was

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Hosni Mubarak's Foreign Minister and then was the chief of the Arab

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League. Can he deliver the profound political change that so many

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Egyptians crave after their un unevolution?

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Amr Moussa, welcome to HARDtalk. Hosni Mubarak was toppled from

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power in February. It is more than si siater and Egypt is being

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run by a military government. The trust it? -- do you trust it. It

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has been handed over the authority to rule Egypt and the

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demonstrations of the people supported that. It came with

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popular support. At the same time the army was supportive, even

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protective of the demonstrators. There was a kind of understanding

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that a transitional period will be managed by the council. As the

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saying goes, that was then and this is now. What we see now is that

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elections have been postponed, it seems until November - presidential

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elections will not happen this year as was originally planned. More

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than that... We should be worried. We shall continue to be worried

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because things are not yet determined one way or the other. It

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is healthy, a healthy thing for an Egyptian citizen to be worried

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about his country and the future of his country. The question of

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elections, yes indeed I am one of those who supported that the

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presidential elections should be run. Then comes the parliamentary

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elections. We wanted a civilian president to preside over the

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process and end the transitional period. That is not going to happen.

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This will not happen immediately but if the parliamentary elections

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take place in the proper way, under good security arrangements and that

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immediately after they are followed by a presidential elections, that

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will do. Can I come back to my original, simple question. Right

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now, given the situation in Egypt today the EU trust the head of the

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Supreme Military Council and his counsel to do the right thing by

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democracy? I trust them because they have said that they do not

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want to stay for any longer, any more are in power and want to

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handover the power to the elected representatives, either of

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Parliament or a president. The fear out that the revolution may be

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stolen that is expressed by some of the Tahrir Square protesters is

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based on several things. Thousands of protesters who were detained by

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the security forces in February, March, April, remain in custody.

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fully agree with what the people demand on the military and civilian

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trial. I called for the natural law of the country to be the overseer.

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You just day-to-day clear possession. -- you just stated a

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clear situation. Should we continue, day after day with demonstrating or

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we have to do something else. Demonstrations will take a

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different shape. Given the thousands in detention, the fact

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that the military had declared the strikes illegal, the fact that

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Tahrir Square has been cleared out, some on the use committees have

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called for a mass protest. They want over one million people on

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Tahrir Square on September 9th. Will you be at the forefront of the

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protest? I am in favour of them protesting the way they want to

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protest... Will he be there? -- will you be there? At the front?

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The reason I push you is that new will be aware, as I am, that there

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are elements within the youth movement in particular that

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question your commitment to a genuine, Democratic Reform Movement

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in Egypt. To quote the call of nature of one of the movements, you

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had the chance to support the revolution's early and refused. You

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were watching. Bath did you were sure that Mubarak was a darling,

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you've joined them. -- after it you were sure that he was going.

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doubt that this quotation is correct or even the man that says

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that is correct. Egypt now is full of people that will say anything

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because nobody asks them to authenticate what they are saying.

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That was there a week before the President left and became the

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former president. If I may say so, maybe people like him that the

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judge you on your record, the longer term record. They say where

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was Amr Moussa during the years he served loyally to the Mubarak

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government? For where was his voice for so many years? What is your

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response to that. You can say so, as they like. My opinion and

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position was very clear out on so many issues of that kind, internal

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and external affairs. I disapprove of certain things. You want to be

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eat at's next President, the first elected President post the

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revolution. If Hosni Mubarak is convicted of the crimes he is

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convicted, would you offer him a pardon, clemency or not? I wonder

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how a person like you could ask such a question. The people are

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going to elect a president who should work within the framework of

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a constitution. This is not going to give the President all authority

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over such things. In such cases if they request is referred to me, I

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shall refer it to the parliament to be decided. The next president is

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not going to be a dictator. We are talking about a constitutional

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President. Let me ask you about your vision for Egypt. People want

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to know, if you want to leave the country, they want to know what you

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stand for. How could you encapsulate your vision for the

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future... First of all, rebuild Egypt. Egypt has been left in total

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disarray in so many areas of life. We have to rebuild the country.

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Based on three basic items of a major political agenda - number one,

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democracy, number two reform and number three, development. The

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country needs reform in all four corners of our lives. Development -

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that would reach the poor. One of the mistakes of the past economic

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policies that has not been addressed, to extend that now we

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have almost 50% if not more of the Egyptian people that live around

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the poverty line. Let me ask you about the Muslim Brotherhood and

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other Islamic parties that will be a power or in the elections. Are

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you ready to work with them? Democracy is a democracy. To read

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an election to prevent this or that clips from winning? -- to rig to

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prevent a group winning? If they have a significant, a controlling

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power over the new parliament... believe they will have a sizable

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number are and this will be the result of democracy and we should

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accept it. He would engage with them over their desire to see a

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much more Muslim Egypt? There will be other sizable numbers. A debate

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will take place. They will support one point of view and others will

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have a different point of view. the Egyptians listen to you they

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want to try to figure out what you stand for. I stand for a civil

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society and a clear constitution, a modern constitution that guarantees

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the liberty of everybody with an article dealing with the Islamic

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reference. As it exists at today, I am for it, everyone is for it but

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also for the stipulation that all Egyptians are equal before the law

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regardless of religion, cholera, creed. -- colour, creed. There has

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been a major controversy in Cairo because scholars have demanded that

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Cairo University, in its literature department, stop depicting a set

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text depicting a lesbian relationship. It is one small case

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but... This is a small case! I want to know whether you believe.

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you're trying to be trivial now why we are talking about a major issue!

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Why should we accept lesbian? What is the measure for that? Those sort

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of cultural issues, you believe, are not important in defining the

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more he did? There are more important things than this question

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about lesbians. There are exceptions. Why should you raise

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such things when we are talking about basic rights, constitution,

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the future of Egypt as if everything relies on that. I refuse

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that logic! I am just trying to get a sense of the Egypt that you want

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to see. Egypt is much bigger to be Let me ask you about Israel. He

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spent many a long year dealing with it. As a citizen of Egypt. In deed.

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Do you want to see a realignment of Egypt's foreign policy, a tougher

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stance against Israel? The Egyptian policy is very clear and it should

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be. As far as the conflict is concerned, we should stick to the

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Arab nations. The agreement in 2002 is the basic document but Egypt

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will follow in relation to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This is the

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constitution that we are going to stick to. The in the immediate

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aftermath of the downfall of Hosni Mubarak, the Foreign Minister has

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moved on but he started using a new language. We heard the Egyptian

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government refer to Israel as the enemy. Reaching out to Hamas. A

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warming-up of relations with Iran. Reaching out to Hamas is not wrong,

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it is the right thing to do. They are Palestinians. What the Egyptian

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government tried to do is bring both of them together and they were

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working on that before the fall of my Barack and after the fall of my

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Barack. -- Mubarak. -- Mubarak. to that describing his well as the

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enemy? Who did? We have reports of this. You can pick and choose

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things. Definitely, Israel is anniversary when it comes to the

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Palestinian question, when it comes to the rights of Palestinians. --

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and add bursary. -- an adversary. We had a peace treaty with Israel.

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This treaty is to be respected provided they respected as well.

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That leads to another interesting question. What we saw last month

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was violence across the Israel- Egypt border. An incursion from

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Sinai into Israel. It was an incursion from the other direction.

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Both ways. The Israelis insist militants attacked targets inside

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Israel. Our government insists it was the other way around and I

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stick with that. The Bottom Line is this - there was a recent report

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that you sign a protest document, which called for the expulsion of

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Israel's ambassador, more Egyptian troops into the Sinai and the hall

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to a natural gas exports to Israel. -- the halt of. A supported the

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recalling of the ambassador. After the Israelis embarked on certain

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violations. Right now, this is important, people will be watching

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this in Israel and across the world. They wanted to know what kind of

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Egyptian the do you might be. Do you believe it will be the right

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thing to do to expel is well's ambassador, to cut of natural gas

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supplies? -- is well's. You are putting that very crudely. Had I

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been Foreign Minister, I would have recalled the ambassador, first

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thing. We should revisit this agreement. Really? A will tell you

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why. It was not the right one. It was a case of corruption linked to

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that deal. As a government official, if there was a case of corruption,

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if the Egyptian negotiators indeed excepted a price that was much

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lower than the international prize and the fact that Jordan has agreed

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recently to increase the price of gas, why not do the same as the

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Israelis? It is interesting the tone you take it on relations with

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Israel. You talked on the importance of listening to the

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Egyptian people. Opinion polls suggest the majority of Egyptians

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support either radical amendment or the revoking of the Camp David

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peace accords between Egypt and Israel. Is that something you would

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consider as leader? First of all, the document is not applicable

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anymore. It has been replaced by the treaty. Let us call it the

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peace treaty. The current peace treaty. As we are going to be

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involved, more and more, in rebuild in Egypt, we are not going to take

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an adventurous foreign policy. have little time left and before we

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end, I must ask you about the bigger Arab world picture. The so-

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called Arab Spring. If you are the leader of the Post-revolutionary

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Egypt, will you make it your business to try and extend this

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there of democracy across the region? -- the sphere. I believe

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that should be the centrepiece of Egyptian democracy, to support

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modernisation and a change. Is it therefore not a problem that also

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long, as Foreign Minister and secretary general of the Arab

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League, you have had extraordinarily close and friendly

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partnership relations with a whole host of authoritarian leaders

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across the region? I hope, when we meet next time, you will have read

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more about what I have done in the Arab League. Most of the proposals,

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the resolutions, about changing, modernising the Arab world,

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development, they were introduced by me. Read the documents. I have

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read many of your speeches. speeches, resolutions. Ministerial

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resolutions. They called for change. Let's talk about the delivery of

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change. In brief, yes or no, do you support the Western intervention to

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deliver the ousting of Gaddafi? as secretary general of the Arab

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League, implement the resolution adopted by the council in putting

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the matter before the Security Council. How the security council

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acted is a different story but my role was to put the case of

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attacking civilians in Libya before the Security Council to prevent it.

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As we sit here today, are you pleased to see Green Square renamed

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Marta's Square. -- Martyrs'. Are you happy to see the Gaddafi family

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out of the country? This change was necessary and I am. Let us talks

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Syria. Would you like to see the Arab League, Arab countries taking

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much more proactive interventionist stance to get Bashar al-Assad out

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of Syria? We try to intervene in the early days. The revolution in

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Syria. Some of the Arab countries neighbouring Syria advised that we

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should move slowly. Until things were clear. My inclination was, do

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not touched the demonstrators. Do not choose violence against the

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people and their demonstrations or protests. This was my put his --

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position and continues to be my position. In the Guardian, I read a

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powerful piece by a Syrian opposition figure saying, we do not

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want the West to intervene in Syria. The Syrian people do not want that

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but what we would like to see is the Arab world and Turkey doing

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everything in their power to get Bashar al-Assad out. If you were

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the next elected leader of Egypt? Will that be your mission? Are we

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going to stay until I am elected some time next year? We have to act

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now. Arab countries and society have to act now and asked the

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Syrian authorities to stop using violence against the Syrian

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population. And if not, they should come back to the Arab League and

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asked for sanctions as they did against Libya. I hope they will

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come back with such a recommendation. In short, you want

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to see the complete isolation of Syria from the Arab world? No. I

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want the change to take place in those Arab countries. I want them

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to understand, all of them, at the time has come for them to

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understand that people cannot accept the continuation of their

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life under pressure and under dictatorship and so on. This is the

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point a call on them to understand. This is a historic dimension and a

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historic to the top and which is going to take place whether they

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like it or not. -- to take place. senior figure in the Social

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Democratic Party, a small party in Egypt, he said the other day, it

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Egypt built a modern, secular state it will have an impact across the

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whole region but if Egypt goes into a dark tunnel, it will take the

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whole region with it. Do you agree? Yes. Which way is Egypt going to

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go? I agree with the general meaning of what the gentleman has

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said but I hope Egypt will be the Engine to take the whole of the

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Middle East behind it into more open horizons of democracy, of

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prosperity and freedom. I hope so. Egypt is capable of doing so.

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Moussa, we have to end there. Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.

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Good morning. It looked as though the weather knew that most children

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go back to school this week. There has been a change of weather. The

:24:37.:24:40.

summer holidays are over. Autumn has well and truly arrived. Quite

:24:40.:24:43.

cool this week. Rain at times and pretty windy as well. Plenty of

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leaves blown off the trees over the next couple of days. This area of

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low pressure moves in and look how tightly packed the isobars are. It

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means it will be a windy start to the day. Temperatures will sit in

:24:54.:25:02.

double figures. With the cloud, rain and win, you won't bother

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about that. The most important thing is it will be a grey or wet

:25:06.:25:09.

for the start of your journey to school or work. At eight o'clock in

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the morning, plenty of rain in England. That extends down into

:25:12.:25:16.

East Anglia. A grey, wet morning in the south-east. Along that south

:25:16.:25:20.

coast, a similar story. We might see indications across South Wales

:25:20.:25:24.

of some of that rain but the south- west in general will be grey and

:25:24.:25:26.

wet. Perhaps some brightness starting to develop across Wales

:25:26.:25:33.

but further inland, rather grey, wet and windy too. It is going to

:25:33.:25:43.
:25:43.:25:44.

be a case of dry across Northern Ireland but showers gather. Won't

:25:44.:25:48.

be long before we see frequent showers. A real clump of heavy rain

:25:48.:25:52.

across western Scotland for a time. It really is going to be a scenario

:25:52.:25:55.

of plenty of showers. A lot of rain around first thing in the morning.

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As the day continues, the bulk of the rain will drift south and east,

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allowing for a slightly brighter start. The wind is still with us

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throughout the day and will drive showers along the west coast. Some

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will filter further inland in the afternoon. The best of the weather,

:26:09.:26:11.

perhaps, reserved for the second half of the day. Temperatures

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gradually cranking their way up towards 16 or 18 degrees. Not

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brilliant out there by any means. If you're heading off to the Rose

:26:18.:26:20.

Bowl watch the one-day international, a wet start but

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hopefully there will be some play in the afternoon. You can listen to

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that on 5 live. Once the rain clears away, it stays pretty breezy

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throughout the week and further showers driven along by the

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westerly wind. A rather unsettled scenario. On Wednesday, a breezy

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:26:46.:26:47.

day. The best of any brightness perhaps in sheltered south-eastern

:26:47.:26:50.

areas, temperatures up to 20 degrees. From Thursday and Friday

:26:50.:26:53.

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