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abuse by African migrants in Libya, perpetrated by anti-Gaddafi rebels. | :00:03. | :00:13. | |
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You can find out more on that on our website. | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
Now it is time for HARDtalk. Relations between Britain's police | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
and politicians are under enormous strain. The police's handling of | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
the so-called hacking scandal and the London riots raised questions | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
of competence and credibility. In turn, the police have voiced grave | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
concern about the impact of government cuts on their service. | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Sir Hugh Orde is the president of the Association of Chief Police | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
Officers. What has happened to the bonds of trust between the police | :00:38. | :00:48. | |
:00:48. | :01:16. | ||
Welcome to HARDtalk. Do you accept the premise that there are worrying | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
signs of a loss of faith in the police a month politicians and | :01:21. | :01:31. | |
:01:31. | :01:34. | ||
sections of the public? I do not,... Confidence has increased. The | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
confidence between the police and community has caught up, not down. | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
I think there is a basic bond on the British model of policing and | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
the community. It is based on principles - uniform, minimal use | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
of force. On the physical level, I think there will always be a | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
healthy tension. So there should be. We hold very dear to our model the | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
operational independence of Chief Police Officers and every police | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
officer. They have the right to make decisions operationally on how | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
they do their business. They then of course are held robustly to | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
account by those who are paid to do exactly that. You raise several | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
issues there - policing techniques, the way the public regards policing | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
techniques. Let me just quote to you a survey that came not right | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
after the riots in England but that came after the shock waves caused | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
by the so-called phone hacking scandal just a few weeks before | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
that. It was showing that 45% of almost 3,000 adults sampled said | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
that their level of trust in senior police chiefs, the people you | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
represent, was either not much or none. Why do you think that could | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
be? That is a good question. My sense is, certainly, in the people | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
I deal with - that that is not the case. We need to look at how the | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
survey was taken. That is an interesting set of facts. My sense | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
is that the confidence the public has in the police is balanced by | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
other... For example by corruption, how corrupt you perceive police | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
officers to be. They see us to be some of the least corrupt public | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
servants, not the most. I think there is a debate to be had. I do | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
not by the contention that the public does not trust senior police. | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
Would you accept that damage has been done by what we learned from | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
the revelations in the hacking scandal about the competence of the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
police - they acknowledge themselves - senior officers | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
acknowledge that their initial investigation into the allegations | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
of phone hacking by news of the World journalists had been | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
inadequate and incompetent. Also revelations about extraordinarily | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
close and cosy relationships between senior officers and tabloid | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
journalists and executives. It was damaging, was it not? No question | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
it was damaging. I don't think that's the way most police officers | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
behave. Those police officers who felt they had a responsibility left | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
the service. In terms of taking personal responsibility perhaps... | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
It is systemic, though. It pointed to systemic problems. Let's wait | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
and see. My sense is, no, it does not. We must have a relationship | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
with the media. We're having a conversation now. The worst thing | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
that happened to policing as some of the consequences of these events | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
is that the public and the police lose that medium with the press | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
through which they hear how are we go about our business. My sense is | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
that we need to maintain a relationship with the media - in | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
the majority of times we have had that and we must continue that. It | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
is a far wider issue than simply a relationship with the media and the | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
press, as you are fully aware. We're looking a much wider issues. | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
Indeed, it is going to be a huge inquiry. It has many different | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
facets - by hacking scandal. Including the way the police | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
handled journalism, everything. If we just focus on what we are | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
learning - I say systemic - what we are learning about the police and | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
its relationships... For example, yesterday and you raft of | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
revelations about the lavish gifts, worth tens of thousands of pounds | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
that the Metropolitan Police senior officers have taken over the last | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
three years, including trips to Royal Ascot, Wimbledon, top rugby | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
games, dinners, award ceremonies, is this right? I think that is for | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
individual officers to decide what is appropriate and what is not. | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
Let's be clear - as achieve in Northern Ireland I would be out | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
sometimes three or four nights a week speaking, engaging and | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
consulting. Many of those engagements I could frankly do | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
without. I have spoken at dinners and all sorts of occasions. | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
Sporting events, it all gave me a connection with the public. You | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
have to make a judgement call on each event and you have to say, in | :05:59. | :06:08. | |
a transparent way, as clearly as you can - that I did that because | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
of whatever. I thought it was a benefit to service, having that | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
conversation. In Northern Ireland, these engagements were critical. | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
They are not always pleasurable. I'm afraid chief officers to have | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
to eat, on occasion, and sometimes you have to eat and speak at once. | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
But Royal Ascot, Kenneth, some of the gifts that have been valued at | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
substantial sums of money -- tennis. I just wonder whether you believe | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
they need to reassess sometimes the way in which they conduct | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
themselves in public life? course they do. Every individual | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
officer is responsible for his or her own behaviour. It is a | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
judgement call. What I am concerned about is having some huge | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
bureaucratic response to is that would remove the chief officers | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
from the public they serve because they are frightened to attend | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
anything. That would be a tragedy for policing. Sometimes these | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
events may well be fairly lavish. Awards ceremonies - what is wrong | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
with that? Do you believe, right now, politicians are seeking to | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
play a much more intrusive role in policing? I think the current | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
government, of course, it is committed to a substantial police | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
reform programme, as is their democratic right. My sense is that | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
there is an ongoing, serious debate about where those lines are drawn. | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Before we get into the reforms, and bills are going through Parliament | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
at the moment, let's talk about intrusive, day-to-day political | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
actions. For example, during the riots that spread across the UK in | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
August, the politicians were on holiday at the beginning and when | :07:46. | :07:55. | |
they got back, 2-3 days, David Cameron, for one, said he was not | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
happy with policing. He said there were far too few police officers on | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
the street. That was unacceptable. Did you take umbrage at their word? | :08:05. | :08:13. | |
They are entitled to voice... said that the politicians' | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
intrusions were irrelevant. What it was was the deliberate campaign to | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
misinterpret what I said. What I said was absolutely clear. It was | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
on the news. I said that their role, their return to London in relation | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
to the tactics decided by chief officers, were an irrelevancy. And | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
they were irrelevant. It is as simple as that. The tactics, the | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
operating independent Police officers decided what tactics to | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
use to respond to the violence. I don't think any politician would | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
want to shoulder that responsibility. I have read the | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
quote time and time again. It was concise and it was utterly | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
different to what was suggested, which is that I said politicians | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
were irrelevant. At no time in my career have I said that politicians | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
are irrelevant. To be quite clear about this - when politicians make | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
comments, as Cameron did about his view that there were far too few | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
police on the streets during those first nights, are you saying he was | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
perfectly right to make those comments? He had every right to | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
make those comments. The comments he made were stating the blindingly | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
obvious. There were too few police officers on the streets in the | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
first two nights. We are looking at this it on behalf of the police, | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
the government and the public. The police report on the riots. We are | :09:35. | :09:44. | |
looking at it in detail.... Let's wait and see. My sense of this | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
disorder is that it was unique. We had no intelligence. It was a | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
unique, spontaneous event across the country. Of course, with more | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
than policing, it takes some time to respond. At the same time, come | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
incidental or not, David Cameron was making it plain that he wanted | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
to hear the advice of a senior US policeman, a former police chief of | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
New York, Los Angeles and Boston. He wanted advice from him on how to | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
deal with gangs. Its themes he wanted his advice as to why... | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
Build baton has been a friend of mine for decades. I invited him to | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
a conference in Northern Ireland and he came with other Chief Police | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
Officers. The idea that his country is insular and does not want to | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
learn, is wrong. We export and import learning. Can you learn from | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
Bill Bratton who said - young people have been emboldened by | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
over-cautious police tactics and lenient sentencing. The police need | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
more arrows in their quiver. He talked about escalating force, | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
including the use of water cannon, rubber bullets and pays us. For one | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
thing, pays us are not used in this country. They are entirely | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
inappropriate. He believes that the Arrows in the quiver, to use his | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
phrase... Those weapons are present in policing in his country. The | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
British model of policing is fundamentally different from the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
American one. That is not to say there is not learning, but we have | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
to put it in context. We advise the Prime Minister on water cannons and | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
battens. I am one of the two chiefs currently serving who has used both | :11:30. | :11:40. | |
:11:40. | :11:41. | ||
those.... You need static crowds and extreme violence. Neither of | :11:41. | :11:49. | |
which were present. I suppose the key phrase there is over-cautious | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
police tactics. We do except that? No-one would not. Their tactics | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
were a function of police numbers. To deliver robust policing, you | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
need sufficient numbers. Hence the question - did we have enough | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
police on the street? As soon as we managed to lift the numbers up to | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
16,000 on the Tuesday, we were able to use tactics that were not | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
available to officers on Saturday or Sunday because they didn't have | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
enough people. The primary objective of the police service is | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
to protect life. Sometimes, sadly, protecting property has to be | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
subordinate. The learning you are seeing now is the relentless | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
pursuit of those who committed those crimes against property into | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
the future so they realise they do not get away with it. They will be | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
criminal justice against those who broke the law. A final point - Bill | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
Bratton says it is crucial when dealing with these events that year | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
is felt by those engaging in disorder. You off the police. You | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
believe that young people involved in those rights were sufficiently | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
fearful of the police? Successful policing is when the public do not | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
fear the police. Successful policing... You have a young person | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
breaking windows trying to steal.... Not terrified by the cops. When law | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
and order breaks down, the British model is to use the appropriate use | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
of force to bring things back. I have used lethal force in Northern | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
Ireland. There is no impediment using extreme force where the | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
circumstances dictate. What we saw, in my dad and, I only have 34 | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
years' service, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about - they were | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
in keeping with the British style. The British have such trust in | :13:35. | :13:45. | |
:13:45. | :13:46. | ||
It is interesting that Bill Bratton was mooted as a possible candidate | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
for the top policing job in the United Kingdom - the Metropolitan | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
Police job. In the end, that was shot down and he did not go for the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
job. You did but you did not get it. It is a few days since you learn he | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
did not get it - why did you not? It's a competition between three | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
other colleagues and all of whom are highly competent and | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
professional. The Home Secretary has made a good decision and I wish | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
the incumbent all the best. It is more complicated than that. We | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
learned... We learned that you were the top | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
candidate. It is more complicated. He sat through the two panels. They | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
thought they were the guy for the job. I wonder why you didn't get | :14:32. | :14:40. | |
There were three interviews... But as was indicated that the word | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
their guide best suited for the job? | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
I am not privy to that information but I gave it 110 %. The guy that | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
has got the job has got it and a fair fight and I know very well... | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
Are understood but I suppose the conclusion is that the job was | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
taken by the politicians and by Theresa May. The believer was | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
political and the fact that you had spoken out and made clear your | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
criticisms of some of the things that Bill Bratton had said and that | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
some of the things that some politicians have said in the way of | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
the policing of the riots - but that count against you? | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
It has always been the case that it is a royal appointment. There is no | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
difference to the one I came second to last time. | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
But at for a direct answer, do you believe your political | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
outspokenness came -- counter begins you? | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
I am paid to represent the top members of the police service and | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
give my professional judgement in a fair and independent way and that | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
is what I have done. Whether that had the consequence is not for me | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
to comment on. Do you think it will be difficult | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
for the new guide to be seen as the guy who was selected by Theresa May | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
has been a political appointment? He was a very successful chief in | :16:11. | :16:20. | |
Merseyside. Police... The bill gone through Parliament recognises | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
operational independence in a stark way. It describes operational | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
independence and describes the role of the Chief Constable and | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
describes the role of the policing crime commissioner. Operational | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
independence is enshrined and the police service will make judgement | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
and then be held to account for what they do. That is the proper | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
way. Of that point of operational | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
independence, we have already alluded to the government's plans | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
for elected police commissioners to play a key strategic role in the | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
future and policing across communities in the United Kingdom. | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
Here is what the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper has said of | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
these elections, which are supposed to begin, if the government gets | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
its way, in 20th November 12. The danger is of a low turnout, I'm on | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
it, marginal or even extremist candidates getting elected to these | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
important posts as police commissioners. We could see police | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
commissioners pursuant device of politics within sections of the | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
community than their policing is supposed to be an must be fair and | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
impartial. The Vatican said new share? | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
We will have to wait and see how it pans out. It all depends on the | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
local identity of the police force. The elections will be fought on | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
local issues and the visibility of police officers in local towns | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
rather than balancing that. But the national commitment that all the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
offices have is can be keeping -- is keeping the countryside. We | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
argue for what is called a strategic... Police inquiries must | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
take account of the national agenda. For example, National disorder. | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
Staff must be allowed to be released into other parts of the | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
country to fight crime. Does this in your view that he | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
actually jeopardise operational independence? | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
Not as could be constructed because we have operational independence | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
enshrined in the bill. The defectors, these are going to | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
be elected and therefore democratically mandate players in | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
key decisions about policing. -- but the fact is. | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
I would like to think of the people who apply for this post are | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
sensible and mature individuals. We do not please the majority. We | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
police all citizens and not just one party or another. In fact, one | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
could make peace... One could make a point that we put more time in | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
two minorities. But we must have protections in place and chief | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
constables must be protected from being arbitrarily fired forcibly | :18:54. | :19:02. | |
not agreeing with the commission. Let me ask you about the | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
government's budget cuts. 20% in the police budget. It seems that | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
roughly 16,000 police officers may lose their jobs as a result. Do you | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
believe it is that they have a detrimental effect on levels of | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
crime? And on the police ability to do their job? | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
Without question he will lose 16,000 staff. If you lose 20% of | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
any organisation, it is bound to have an impact. Our job is to | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
minimise that impact that hard choices will have to be made if you | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
have less officers. Will a crime levels rise? | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
I am not in the business of predicting the future but evidence | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
tells us that in eight recession, demand on policing increase. Crime | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
it also increases as also there is every risk and we believe that we | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
can make a difference. That there is a risk of a rise in | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
crime, it is that a message using to politicians? | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
Are message every police officer sends to the politicians is that we | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
are concerned about the effects of the cuts. This country is in | :20:12. | :20:21. | |
serious trouble financially. The commissioner needs to be tested. | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
The first job is to minimise the impact on the front line and Currie, | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
32% of replied officers are being cut despite cuts in the Budget been | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
substantially higher. They will be an impact unquestionably the way | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
falls, we will have to wait and see. Here is what Bill Bratton says. He | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
says it is wrong to make an association between reductions in | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
budget and police numbers and crime going up. He said, look at what I | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
achieved. The budget was cut by 15% but I cut crime by 10% at the same | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
time so you should not make that up tension. | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
He said that one can actually assume that there may well be... I | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
am not going to give you every single word of yours but you seem | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
to be saying that they could be a real risk of rising crime as a | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
result of cuts? Are there is that potential but it | :21:13. | :21:22. | |
does not give up that fight before we started. Frontline officers have | :21:22. | :21:31. | |
been get down to 82% cut despite higher cuts of budget. -- 2%. In | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
most forces in this country forces have been cut. It can be done. | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
I began by asking you about the way the public feels about the police. | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
We had an extraordinary report yesterday from a lawyer who was | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
commissioned to look at the quality of the new recruits into the police | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
and he said there were severe problems. He said the entrance | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
tests seemed weighty easy and easier than they were and he | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
suggested that lots of layers in Court says that police giving | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
evidence are almost functionally illiterate. This is a profound | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
problem cos I is it not, you have bosses must be worried about? | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
I need to see the evidence. I was at that conference but I did not | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
hear him say that. I would need to see some hard evidence. My evidence | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
is that the standard is far higher. Forget the basic minimum standard - | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
the standard in my experience is far higher than where I was. Over | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
one third of the officers had at least one degree. The average age | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
was 39, not 18. They bring a wealth of experience at a thing to | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
discredit the whole rank and file with a sweeping statement is not | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
helpful and probably deeply inaccurate. Hearsay and third-hand | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
from other lawyers meet some evidence behind it before we have | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
to throw up our hands and say the quality of policing in this country | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
is bad. The offices I saw during the riots were brave and | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
intelligent and thoughtful and doing a very difficult job. | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
I hear the passion in your boys but the running theme throughout this | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
interview has been feted and credibility in the police from the | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
public. A final thought on this - Theresa May has suggested that | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
perhaps it would improve the quality of policing if senior | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
figures and leaders from other parts of the public sector, from | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
the private sector as well, were brought into the police, as leaders, | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
implying that actually, the leadership at the moment is | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
somewhat lacking medical be better to get none police into the force | :23:37. | :23:45. | |
to help out with leadership? -- and it would be better. | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
I do not need as a chief police officer people on work experience. | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
This is not about that but proven leaders from other sectors to bring | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
skills to the force. Qualified to make life and death | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
decisions in a world that is unique? I do not think so. We | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
already have a mixed economy. Over 50% of some forces are not sworn | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
officers. They bring a wealth of experience. I have had exposed from | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
the legal profession and from a camping and human resources. This | :24:17. | :24:27. | |
:24:27. | :24:27. | ||
notion that we are insular is wrong. -- accounting. Frankly, the notion | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
that that we can just ship some one man and the next day they could | :24:32. | :24:36. |