Sir Hugh Orde HARDtalk


Sir Hugh Orde

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abuse by African migrants in Libya, perpetrated by anti-Gaddafi rebels.

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You can find out more on that on our website.

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Now it is time for HARDtalk. Relations between Britain's police

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and politicians are under enormous strain. The police's handling of

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the so-called hacking scandal and the London riots raised questions

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of competence and credibility. In turn, the police have voiced grave

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concern about the impact of government cuts on their service.

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Sir Hugh Orde is the president of the Association of Chief Police

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Officers. What has happened to the bonds of trust between the police

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Do you accept the premise that there are worrying

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signs of a loss of faith in the police a month politicians and

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sections of the public? I do not,... Confidence has increased. The

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confidence between the police and community has caught up, not down.

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I think there is a basic bond on the British model of policing and

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the community. It is based on principles - uniform, minimal use

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of force. On the physical level, I think there will always be a

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healthy tension. So there should be. We hold very dear to our model the

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operational independence of Chief Police Officers and every police

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officer. They have the right to make decisions operationally on how

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they do their business. They then of course are held robustly to

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account by those who are paid to do exactly that. You raise several

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issues there - policing techniques, the way the public regards policing

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techniques. Let me just quote to you a survey that came not right

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after the riots in England but that came after the shock waves caused

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by the so-called phone hacking scandal just a few weeks before

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that. It was showing that 45% of almost 3,000 adults sampled said

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that their level of trust in senior police chiefs, the people you

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represent, was either not much or none. Why do you think that could

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be? That is a good question. My sense is, certainly, in the people

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I deal with - that that is not the case. We need to look at how the

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survey was taken. That is an interesting set of facts. My sense

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is that the confidence the public has in the police is balanced by

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other... For example by corruption, how corrupt you perceive police

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officers to be. They see us to be some of the least corrupt public

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servants, not the most. I think there is a debate to be had. I do

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not by the contention that the public does not trust senior police.

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Would you accept that damage has been done by what we learned from

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the revelations in the hacking scandal about the competence of the

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police - they acknowledge themselves - senior officers

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acknowledge that their initial investigation into the allegations

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of phone hacking by news of the World journalists had been

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inadequate and incompetent. Also revelations about extraordinarily

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close and cosy relationships between senior officers and tabloid

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journalists and executives. It was damaging, was it not? No question

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it was damaging. I don't think that's the way most police officers

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behave. Those police officers who felt they had a responsibility left

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the service. In terms of taking personal responsibility perhaps...

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It is systemic, though. It pointed to systemic problems. Let's wait

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and see. My sense is, no, it does not. We must have a relationship

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with the media. We're having a conversation now. The worst thing

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that happened to policing as some of the consequences of these events

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is that the public and the police lose that medium with the press

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through which they hear how are we go about our business. My sense is

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that we need to maintain a relationship with the media - in

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the majority of times we have had that and we must continue that. It

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is a far wider issue than simply a relationship with the media and the

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press, as you are fully aware. We're looking a much wider issues.

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Indeed, it is going to be a huge inquiry. It has many different

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facets - by hacking scandal. Including the way the police

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handled journalism, everything. If we just focus on what we are

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learning - I say systemic - what we are learning about the police and

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its relationships... For example, yesterday and you raft of

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revelations about the lavish gifts, worth tens of thousands of pounds

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that the Metropolitan Police senior officers have taken over the last

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three years, including trips to Royal Ascot, Wimbledon, top rugby

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games, dinners, award ceremonies, is this right? I think that is for

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individual officers to decide what is appropriate and what is not.

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Let's be clear - as achieve in Northern Ireland I would be out

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sometimes three or four nights a week speaking, engaging and

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consulting. Many of those engagements I could frankly do

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without. I have spoken at dinners and all sorts of occasions.

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Sporting events, it all gave me a connection with the public. You

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have to make a judgement call on each event and you have to say, in

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a transparent way, as clearly as you can - that I did that because

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of whatever. I thought it was a benefit to service, having that

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conversation. In Northern Ireland, these engagements were critical.

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They are not always pleasurable. I'm afraid chief officers to have

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to eat, on occasion, and sometimes you have to eat and speak at once.

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But Royal Ascot, Kenneth, some of the gifts that have been valued at

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substantial sums of money -- tennis. I just wonder whether you believe

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they need to reassess sometimes the way in which they conduct

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themselves in public life? course they do. Every individual

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officer is responsible for his or her own behaviour. It is a

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judgement call. What I am concerned about is having some huge

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bureaucratic response to is that would remove the chief officers

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from the public they serve because they are frightened to attend

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anything. That would be a tragedy for policing. Sometimes these

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events may well be fairly lavish. Awards ceremonies - what is wrong

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with that? Do you believe, right now, politicians are seeking to

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play a much more intrusive role in policing? I think the current

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government, of course, it is committed to a substantial police

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reform programme, as is their democratic right. My sense is that

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there is an ongoing, serious debate about where those lines are drawn.

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Before we get into the reforms, and bills are going through Parliament

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at the moment, let's talk about intrusive, day-to-day political

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actions. For example, during the riots that spread across the UK in

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August, the politicians were on holiday at the beginning and when

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they got back, 2-3 days, David Cameron, for one, said he was not

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happy with policing. He said there were far too few police officers on

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the street. That was unacceptable. Did you take umbrage at their word?

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They are entitled to voice... said that the politicians'

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intrusions were irrelevant. What it was was the deliberate campaign to

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misinterpret what I said. What I said was absolutely clear. It was

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on the news. I said that their role, their return to London in relation

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to the tactics decided by chief officers, were an irrelevancy. And

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they were irrelevant. It is as simple as that. The tactics, the

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operating independent Police officers decided what tactics to

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use to respond to the violence. I don't think any politician would

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want to shoulder that responsibility. I have read the

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quote time and time again. It was concise and it was utterly

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different to what was suggested, which is that I said politicians

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were irrelevant. At no time in my career have I said that politicians

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are irrelevant. To be quite clear about this - when politicians make

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comments, as Cameron did about his view that there were far too few

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police on the streets during those first nights, are you saying he was

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perfectly right to make those comments? He had every right to

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make those comments. The comments he made were stating the blindingly

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obvious. There were too few police officers on the streets in the

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first two nights. We are looking at this it on behalf of the police,

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the government and the public. The police report on the riots. We are

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looking at it in detail.... Let's wait and see. My sense of this

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disorder is that it was unique. We had no intelligence. It was a

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unique, spontaneous event across the country. Of course, with more

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than policing, it takes some time to respond. At the same time, come

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incidental or not, David Cameron was making it plain that he wanted

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to hear the advice of a senior US policeman, a former police chief of

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New York, Los Angeles and Boston. He wanted advice from him on how to

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deal with gangs. Its themes he wanted his advice as to why...

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Build baton has been a friend of mine for decades. I invited him to

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a conference in Northern Ireland and he came with other Chief Police

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Officers. The idea that his country is insular and does not want to

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learn, is wrong. We export and import learning. Can you learn from

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Bill Bratton who said - young people have been emboldened by

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over-cautious police tactics and lenient sentencing. The police need

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more arrows in their quiver. He talked about escalating force,

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including the use of water cannon, rubber bullets and pays us. For one

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thing, pays us are not used in this country. They are entirely

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inappropriate. He believes that the Arrows in the quiver, to use his

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phrase... Those weapons are present in policing in his country. The

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British model of policing is fundamentally different from the

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American one. That is not to say there is not learning, but we have

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to put it in context. We advise the Prime Minister on water cannons and

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battens. I am one of the two chiefs currently serving who has used both

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those.... You need static crowds and extreme violence. Neither of

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which were present. I suppose the key phrase there is over-cautious

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police tactics. We do except that? No-one would not. Their tactics

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were a function of police numbers. To deliver robust policing, you

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need sufficient numbers. Hence the question - did we have enough

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police on the street? As soon as we managed to lift the numbers up to

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16,000 on the Tuesday, we were able to use tactics that were not

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available to officers on Saturday or Sunday because they didn't have

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enough people. The primary objective of the police service is

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to protect life. Sometimes, sadly, protecting property has to be

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subordinate. The learning you are seeing now is the relentless

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pursuit of those who committed those crimes against property into

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the future so they realise they do not get away with it. They will be

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criminal justice against those who broke the law. A final point - Bill

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Bratton says it is crucial when dealing with these events that year

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is felt by those engaging in disorder. You off the police. You

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believe that young people involved in those rights were sufficiently

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fearful of the police? Successful policing is when the public do not

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fear the police. Successful policing... You have a young person

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breaking windows trying to steal.... Not terrified by the cops. When law

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and order breaks down, the British model is to use the appropriate use

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of force to bring things back. I have used lethal force in Northern

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Ireland. There is no impediment using extreme force where the

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circumstances dictate. What we saw, in my dad and, I only have 34

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years' service, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about - they were

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in keeping with the British style. The British have such trust in

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It is interesting that Bill Bratton was mooted as a possible candidate

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for the top policing job in the United Kingdom - the Metropolitan

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Police job. In the end, that was shot down and he did not go for the

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job. You did but you did not get it. It is a few days since you learn he

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did not get it - why did you not? It's a competition between three

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other colleagues and all of whom are highly competent and

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professional. The Home Secretary has made a good decision and I wish

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the incumbent all the best. It is more complicated than that. We

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learned... We learned that you were the top

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candidate. It is more complicated. He sat through the two panels. They

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thought they were the guy for the job. I wonder why you didn't get

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There were three interviews... But as was indicated that the word

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their guide best suited for the job?

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I am not privy to that information but I gave it 110 %. The guy that

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has got the job has got it and a fair fight and I know very well...

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Are understood but I suppose the conclusion is that the job was

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taken by the politicians and by Theresa May. The believer was

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political and the fact that you had spoken out and made clear your

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criticisms of some of the things that Bill Bratton had said and that

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some of the things that some politicians have said in the way of

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the policing of the riots - but that count against you?

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It has always been the case that it is a royal appointment. There is no

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difference to the one I came second to last time.

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But at for a direct answer, do you believe your political

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outspokenness came -- counter begins you?

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I am paid to represent the top members of the police service and

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give my professional judgement in a fair and independent way and that

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is what I have done. Whether that had the consequence is not for me

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to comment on. Do you think it will be difficult

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for the new guide to be seen as the guy who was selected by Theresa May

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has been a political appointment? He was a very successful chief in

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Merseyside. Police... The bill gone through Parliament recognises

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operational independence in a stark way. It describes operational

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independence and describes the role of the Chief Constable and

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describes the role of the policing crime commissioner. Operational

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independence is enshrined and the police service will make judgement

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and then be held to account for what they do. That is the proper

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way. Of that point of operational

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independence, we have already alluded to the government's plans

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for elected police commissioners to play a key strategic role in the

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future and policing across communities in the United Kingdom.

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Here is what the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper has said of

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these elections, which are supposed to begin, if the government gets

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its way, in 20th November 12. The danger is of a low turnout, I'm on

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it, marginal or even extremist candidates getting elected to these

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important posts as police commissioners. We could see police

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commissioners pursuant device of politics within sections of the

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community than their policing is supposed to be an must be fair and

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impartial. The Vatican said new share?

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We will have to wait and see how it pans out. It all depends on the

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local identity of the police force. The elections will be fought on

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local issues and the visibility of police officers in local towns

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rather than balancing that. But the national commitment that all the

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offices have is can be keeping -- is keeping the countryside. We

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argue for what is called a strategic... Police inquiries must

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take account of the national agenda. For example, National disorder.

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Staff must be allowed to be released into other parts of the

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country to fight crime. Does this in your view that he

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actually jeopardise operational independence?

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Not as could be constructed because we have operational independence

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enshrined in the bill. The defectors, these are going to

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be elected and therefore democratically mandate players in

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key decisions about policing. -- but the fact is.

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I would like to think of the people who apply for this post are

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sensible and mature individuals. We do not please the majority. We

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police all citizens and not just one party or another. In fact, one

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could make peace... One could make a point that we put more time in

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two minorities. But we must have protections in place and chief

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constables must be protected from being arbitrarily fired forcibly

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not agreeing with the commission. Let me ask you about the

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government's budget cuts. 20% in the police budget. It seems that

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roughly 16,000 police officers may lose their jobs as a result. Do you

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believe it is that they have a detrimental effect on levels of

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crime? And on the police ability to do their job?

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Without question he will lose 16,000 staff. If you lose 20% of

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any organisation, it is bound to have an impact. Our job is to

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minimise that impact that hard choices will have to be made if you

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have less officers. Will a crime levels rise?

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I am not in the business of predicting the future but evidence

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tells us that in eight recession, demand on policing increase. Crime

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it also increases as also there is every risk and we believe that we

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can make a difference. That there is a risk of a rise in

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crime, it is that a message using to politicians?

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Are message every police officer sends to the politicians is that we

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are concerned about the effects of the cuts. This country is in

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serious trouble financially. The commissioner needs to be tested.

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The first job is to minimise the impact on the front line and Currie,

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32% of replied officers are being cut despite cuts in the Budget been

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substantially higher. They will be an impact unquestionably the way

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falls, we will have to wait and see. Here is what Bill Bratton says. He

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says it is wrong to make an association between reductions in

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budget and police numbers and crime going up. He said, look at what I

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achieved. The budget was cut by 15% but I cut crime by 10% at the same

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time so you should not make that up tension.

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He said that one can actually assume that there may well be... I

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am not going to give you every single word of yours but you seem

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to be saying that they could be a real risk of rising crime as a

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result of cuts? Are there is that potential but it

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does not give up that fight before we started. Frontline officers have

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been get down to 82% cut despite higher cuts of budget. -- 2%. In

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most forces in this country forces have been cut. It can be done.

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I began by asking you about the way the public feels about the police.

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We had an extraordinary report yesterday from a lawyer who was

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commissioned to look at the quality of the new recruits into the police

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and he said there were severe problems. He said the entrance

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tests seemed weighty easy and easier than they were and he

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suggested that lots of layers in Court says that police giving

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evidence are almost functionally illiterate. This is a profound

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problem cos I is it not, you have bosses must be worried about?

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I need to see the evidence. I was at that conference but I did not

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hear him say that. I would need to see some hard evidence. My evidence

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is that the standard is far higher. Forget the basic minimum standard -

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the standard in my experience is far higher than where I was. Over

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one third of the officers had at least one degree. The average age

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was 39, not 18. They bring a wealth of experience at a thing to

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discredit the whole rank and file with a sweeping statement is not

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helpful and probably deeply inaccurate. Hearsay and third-hand

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from other lawyers meet some evidence behind it before we have

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to throw up our hands and say the quality of policing in this country

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is bad. The offices I saw during the riots were brave and

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intelligent and thoughtful and doing a very difficult job.

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I hear the passion in your boys but the running theme throughout this

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interview has been feted and credibility in the police from the

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public. A final thought on this - Theresa May has suggested that

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perhaps it would improve the quality of policing if senior

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figures and leaders from other parts of the public sector, from

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the private sector as well, were brought into the police, as leaders,

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implying that actually, the leadership at the moment is

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somewhat lacking medical be better to get none police into the force

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to help out with leadership? -- and it would be better.

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I do not need as a chief police officer people on work experience.

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This is not about that but proven leaders from other sectors to bring

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skills to the force. Qualified to make life and death

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decisions in a world that is unique? I do not think so. We

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already have a mixed economy. Over 50% of some forces are not sworn

:24:07.:24:13.

officers. They bring a wealth of experience. I have had exposed from

:24:13.:24:17.

the legal profession and from a camping and human resources. This

:24:17.:24:27.
:24:27.:24:27.

notion that we are insular is wrong. -- accounting. Frankly, the notion

:24:27.:24:32.

that that we can just ship some one man and the next day they could

:24:32.:24:36.

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