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Britain. He told delegates he wanted a society where hard work | :00:03. | :00:11. | |
and responsibility were awarded. That is the headlines. Now it is | :00:11. | :00:21. | |
:00:21. | :00:22. | ||
time for HARDtalk. Maybe toppling the Gaddafi regime | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
was the easy part. Libya's new role as are now committed to building a | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
united, democratic state from the ruins of the canal's dictatorship. | :00:33. | :00:40. | |
Can it be done? As yet there is no functioning government in Tripoli. | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
My guest is the chief operations manager of the stabilisation team, | :00:45. | :00:53. | |
Aref Ali Nayed, he is in Dubai. How long will it take the new Libya to | :00:53. | :01:03. | |
:01:03. | :01:26. | ||
Aref Ali Nayed in Dubai, welcome to HARDtalk. There is no fully | :01:26. | :01:36. | |
functioning central government in Tripoli. Why not? I don't think | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
that is an accurate statement. The caretaker executive team has been | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
in Tripoli and from the valley early days of the liberation of | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
Tripoli, the Deputy Prime Minister came into Tripoli and ministers | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
also and the government is being run out of the building of the | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
prime ministership, the Prime Minister's office. Most ministers | :02:04. | :02:13. | |
are in Tripoli. Or at least they had been in Tripoli. It is | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
interesting the way you phrase it, most of them had been in Tripoli. I | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
dare say most of them have been at one time or another but they are | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
not staying there. There is not a sense of a coherent, for the | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
functioning government with ministries operating. Let me just | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
0.8 UN official who said, they need to be seen running the country from | :02:36. | :02:46. | |
:02:46. | :02:50. | ||
Tripoli and we have not seen it yet. -- let me just caught up a -- quote | :02:51. | :02:59. | |
a minister. We are in transition. This was a very busy week as some | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
of the officials were out of the country for meetings. There have | :03:03. | :03:10. | |
been extensive consultations in Benghazi, Misrata. Other cities. I | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
hope that you do not see these consultations as a witness. You | :03:13. | :03:23. | |
:03:23. | :03:25. | ||
should see them as a strength of the government. I think that the | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
notion that there is no central government is inaccurate. It is | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
dangerous. If you are looking for Central Command, Control the type | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
that Gaddafi exercised, we had a revolution because we do not want | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
that. What you have now our networks of people in touch with | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
their localities. They are able to keep the country together and keep | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
the main functions of government going. People do have electricity, | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
water, basic health, schools have opened. I think we have to be fair | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
with what is happening. No matter, I do not underestimate the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
infrastructure changes that have occurred in Tripoli, tTripoli, tes | :04:13. | :04:22. | |
coming back. Here is what a Libyan political analyst has said, he has | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
been writing a lot about the country. He says the current | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
national transitional council lacks vision, legitimacy and power on the | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
ground. Those who have legitimacy, he says, are by and large the | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
:04:47. | :04:50. | ||
people who actually fought in the war. I respect every Libyan's view. | :04:50. | :04:59. | |
I feel the National Transitional Council has consensus of legitimacy, | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
unprecedented - not since the time of the King have we seen a true | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
:05:14. | :05:14. | ||
national consensus. This can sense and is real. Legitimacy is provided | :05:14. | :05:24. | |
:05:24. | :05:37. | ||
by... Correct and this consensus is All of the Libyans who have worked | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
so hard are part of the revolution. The legitimacy is ultimately be the | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
Libyan people. Not with a subset of the Libyan people. I believe the | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
National Transitional Council has that legitimacy. As for the power | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
or underground, they are keeping the country together. Liberating | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
one town, city after another. Libya is a large country and this is not | :06:03. | :06:13. | |
:06:13. | :06:13. | ||
an easy task... Left's talk about security, specifically. -- we will | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
talk about. The security of the people and the ability to command | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
and control security forces. This is about legitimacy in a sense that | :06:27. | :06:36. | |
the National Transitional Council does not control the armed forces | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
that fight in its name. We have seen in Bani Walid and other places | :06:42. | :06:52. | |
:06:52. | :06:54. | ||
that the command and control six with the thermometer. I do to -- | :06:54. | :07:03. | |
sit with different militia. I do not like that word. What is most | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
important is that if you ask the young people who they are fighting | :07:08. | :07:16. | |
for, they tell you they are fighting for Libya. They will tell | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
you they are fighting for the NTC. You keep looking for the | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
centralised army with a top down type of exertion of power, that is | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
what the people revolted against. So long as everyone is fighting for | :07:34. | :07:44. | |
:07:44. | :07:45. | ||
the same cause, fighting for freedom. Hang on, let me stop you | :07:45. | :07:55. | |
:07:55. | :07:55. | ||
for a moment. Your assertion is interesting. Let me. -- let me | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
referred to one person who has Islamist affiliations and has said | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
that he opposes the involvement of so many Gaddafi officials at the | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
top of the National Transitional Council. Of course, I have | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
tremendous respect for these young man who led many battles for the | :08:16. | :08:25. | |
freedom of the country. When you quote him you must understand he | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
speaks as a commander in a group of young fighters and as such, he does | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
a baby orders of the head of the National Transitional Council. -- | :08:36. | :08:45. | |
he does obey the orders. He also has another capacity, as they | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
Libyan he is entitled to his opinion. He can have any opinion he | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
likes. That is the duty, that is what we fought for. I do not like | :08:57. | :09:07. | |
:09:07. | :09:20. | ||
the use of these adjectives - is almost, -- Islamist, non- Islamist. | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
We will talk about the idea of what is happening on the ground. | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
Different elements of the military under the control of the National | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
Transitional Council. We have seen commanders on the ground around | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
Sirte, for example, where they want to finally take the town. They | :09:37. | :09:47. | |
claim there is a lack of resources and an -- and ammunition. The | :09:47. | :09:56. | |
question is, how long will it take to capture a or kill Gaddafi and | :09:56. | :10:06. | |
:10:06. | :10:08. | ||
take the town's? I do not like the word mop up and aggressive | :10:08. | :10:18. | |
:10:18. | :10:21. | ||
activities. The reason the campaigns are taking so long is | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
that they recognise they are dealing with fellow Libyans. They | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
are being incredibly patient, trying to negotiate their way into | :10:30. | :10:38. | |
the towns. Asked the population to liberate itself rather than be | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
invaded from the outside. No Libyan will accept that kind of position | :10:42. | :10:49. | |
of will from fellow Libyans. We see these strategies working. Many | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
people are either fleeing these cities where there are | :10:56. | :11:03. | |
concentrations of the mercenaries who want to fight. We are seeing | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
many towns to have liberated themselves in the south. Tens of | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
towns. People focus on a couple of cases where we have difficulties | :11:14. | :11:24. | |
but these difficult situations showed that people are being | :11:24. | :11:34. | |
:11:34. | :11:44. | ||
patient and prudent. All right, you came. -- team. The messages of | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
defiance from Gaddafi are meaningless. Of course he will be | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
annoying us from time to time but this annoyance does not amount to a | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
real challenge to the sovereignty, integrity and unity of the beer. I | :12:03. | :12:13. | |
:12:13. | :12:17. | ||
would like to add that the chairman of the stabilisation team, they are | :12:17. | :12:27. | |
:12:27. | :12:33. | ||
working with hundreds and hundreds of Libyans. Why is it that many | :12:33. | :12:41. | |
other weapons have been allowed to be stolen out of your stockpiles? | :12:41. | :12:51. | |
:12:51. | :12:52. | ||
You can try to God so many sites in such a vast area and you will see | :12:52. | :13:01. | |
the challenge. -- you will try to guard. Libya is a vast country and | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
our forces are quite small and also quite scattered. Would you with | :13:07. | :13:15. | |
knowledge that you failed. In recent months BBC reporters have | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
said that some of them are completely unguarded. Human Rights | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
Watch says there is serious weaponry, the key ingredient for | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
car bombs are out of the hands of authorities and in the hands of God | :13:33. | :13:43. | |
:13:43. | :13:45. | ||
knows who. There is such a thing as the fog of war. Given the limited | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
resources, the scattered nature of the fighters, the vast country, the | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
amazingly vast arsenals that up all over the place, unidentified, we | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
have succeeded. If he would like to be cynical about it, of course you | :14:02. | :14:12. | |
:14:12. | :14:16. | ||
can call it a failure. It is a It is not a question of cynicism. | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
It is just listening to other people who say that the amount of | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
weapons in circulation a pose a threat to Europe and other nations. | :14:25. | :14:34. | |
It is the case that many arsenals have been secured. You have to be | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
fairer when you are judging to make sure that you are applying to do -- | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
applying resources to the situation at hand. We have talked a lot about | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
legitimacy. Let us talk about future divisions in the politics of | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
Libya. Dear accept that there is growing evidence of the Islamist | :15:01. | :15:09. | |
frustration with post Gaddafi politics? In the divisive aged Jews | :15:09. | :15:19. | |
:15:19. | :15:27. | ||
are not helpful. -- adjectives. I would simply call it the Muslim | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
Brotherhood. You run the risk of lumping together of all kinds of | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
Islamic movements by just using one adjective to put them all together. | :15:37. | :15:47. | |
:15:47. | :15:54. | ||
The approach has to be new -- nuanced. This is a polyphony of | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
voices. It is a mosaic tendency. The Muslim Brotherhood will be | :15:58. | :16:08. | |
there and so will the rubles, the secularists and everybody else. -- | :16:08. | :16:17. | |
rebels. I take your point about caution. You are a theology | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
academic and you have worked on inter-faith programmes around the | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
world. For example, when there is a real discussion inside your country | :16:26. | :16:34. | |
about the role of Sharia law, and we have seen demonstrations about | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
this, what is your view of that? Do you think that is going to be | :16:39. | :16:48. | |
something that will underpin a future Libya? The Libyan people are | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
a Muslim people. The problem is that people often miss the point | :16:55. | :17:05. | |
:17:05. | :17:08. | ||
that Sharia law has many meanings. The traditional meaning in Libya is | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
as a way to honour our Creator and living according to help create a's | :17:13. | :17:23. | |
:17:23. | :17:24. | ||
wishes for humanity. It is a way, a trajectory, and intentionality. It | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
is the spirit of the law rather than a set of rules. Went Libyans | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
long for Sharia law it is a longing for a spiritual path. I believe | :17:36. | :17:46. | |
:17:46. | :17:51. | ||
that -- When Libyans long for. It is not technical and legalistic. It | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
should not do is make it should not be judged as such because that will | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
oversimplify things. The military commander in Tripoli was a member | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
of the Libyan Islamic fighting grid. That has cauat has cauttention to | :18:08. | :18:17. | |
be focused on it in Washington. The that they arat they ard about | :18:17. | :18:27. | |
:18:27. | :18:38. | ||
Islamist influence in the Libyan revolution. -- fighting group. | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
Libyans will be watchful of everyone and will watch for all | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
tendencies. I can assure you that three things will never happen in | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
big because of the diligence of young people. Corruption will never | :18:52. | :19:00. | |
happen again. The overpowering of one tendency over all will never | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
happen again and this is because of the will of the young people. They | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
are very smart and well-informed and up-to-date. They will be able | :19:09. | :19:16. | |
to watch this revolution to make sure it is not taken over by anyone. | :19:16. | :19:26. | |
:19:26. | :19:27. | ||
Everyone in Tripoli knows that the liberation of Tripoli happens when | :19:27. | :19:37. | |
:19:37. | :19:38. | ||
of the people rose up in every street of the capital. It was a | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
collective effort. Dyno that because of al-Jazeera TV and | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
particular angles there has been a focus on particular personalities - | :19:50. | :19:58. | |
- I know that because of. But it was everyone's revolution. Everyone | :19:58. | :20:06. | |
was a part of this revolution. I have respect for those who fought | :20:06. | :20:15. | |
so hard for revolution and democracy. We want a unified and | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
peaceful Libya. You have said you do not think this should be a witch | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
hunt, purges or cleansing. But they must be justice. Certainly for the | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
hundreds -- the families of the hundreds of victims found in mass | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
graves. From the passage you are quoting, I | :20:37. | :20:47. | |
:20:47. | :20:47. | ||
also said there had to be just as. For giving us can only happen | :20:47. | :20:57. | |
:20:57. | :21:04. | ||
through consent. -- for giving -- forgiveness. In Islam, it is | :21:04. | :21:13. | |
encouraged that you forgive but you can only do so after justice. We | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
have been working with other international partners on | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
transition issues ended is important that we as soon as | :21:20. | :21:28. | |
possible put on trial the criminals with blood on their hands. What | :21:28. | :21:37. | |
about those who are implicated in war crimes by forces loyal to the | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
National Transitional Council, particularly against sub-Saharan | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
Africans and black Libyans? Whoever has abused in the other a human | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
being should be put on trial no matter what their affiliation is. | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
Anybody who violate human rights should be put on trial even if he | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
is an official or and governing... There are more then 2,000 people | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
apparently in detention. How many of those are in detention and | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
facing trial because of crimes committed on the side of the | :22:15. | :22:22. | |
National Transitional Council? cannot give you see figures. By do | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
not know them off the top of my head. I can tell you that several | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
people have been arrested for committing violations after the | :22:33. | :22:43. | |
revolution. Revolutionaries have no immunity. Whoever violates human | :22:43. | :22:53. | |
:22:53. | :22:53. | ||
rights, they will be put on trial. The very quickly, what about the | :22:53. | :23:03. | |
:23:03. | :23:07. | ||
question of oil and the economic reconstruction of Libya? Will | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
France and the UK get a lot of contracts as the oil industry is | :23:11. | :23:20. | |
opened up from your administration? I can tell you that the decision | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
for awarding future contracts will be with the future elected | :23:25. | :23:35. | |
:23:35. | :23:36. | ||
government of Libya. There is a general policy of maintaining | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
contracts, legitimate contracts... Will there be rewards for | :23:40. | :23:50. | |
:23:50. | :23:54. | ||
supporters of yours? Such decisions will be the decisions of the next | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
government. My personal opinion: I believe that whoever helped us | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
should have helped us for the good of humanity and for moral reasons. | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
I do not think there should be any allotment of contracts based on the | :24:13. | :24:23. | |
:24:23. | :24:27. | ||
support of the Libyan people. I think this is very important. | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
Whoever fought for the Libyan people should have done so for the | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
sake of much higher values than material gain. Think you very much | :24:36. | :24:45. | |
:24:46. | :24:55. | ||
for joining us. for joining us. | :24:55. | :25:05. | |
:25:05. | :25:08. | ||
-- Thank you. Overnight we drank some more warm air up from the | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
Continent. People will head to the seaside in droves. They could be | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
some mist and low cloud developing, particularly through southern areas | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
of the north Sea. They could be some low cloud. But a lot of | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
sunshine to start the day across England. Scotland will start with a | :25:29. | :25:37. | |
little cloud. It will break during the day. Showers will ease off. A | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
fine, dry and mild start to the day for Northern Ireland. Some patchy | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
mist or shallow for a round first thing that it will soon clear. In | :25:50. | :25:59. | |
the south-west, another glorious start with lots of sunshine around. | :25:59. | :26:07. | |
The only way is up! Very subtle changes through the day. The | :26:07. | :26:17. | |
:26:17. | :26:21. | ||
sunshine will come out. It will spread its way to the north-west. | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
Heading through the night, we will start to see a weather front of | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
making progress into Northern Ireland and western Scotland. It | :26:29. | :26:39. | |
:26:39. | :26:40. | ||
will bring outbreaks of rain. The East will be warm. The east of | :26:40. | :26:50. | |
:26:50. | :26:51. | ||
Scotland and most of England will stay with the warm conditions. On | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
Friday, it is a repeat performance. Partly cloudy for western Scotland, | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
outbreaks of rain for Northern Ireland and dry and sunny elsewhere. | :27:02. | :27:10. |