George Bizos - Former lawyer to Nelson Mandela HARDtalk


George Bizos - Former lawyer to Nelson Mandela

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mistakes. Right now, it is time for HARDtalk.

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South Africa's constitution is coming under mounting pressure.

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Politicians are warning of the judges not to defy the will of the

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people. Where does that leave the independence of the judiciary? My

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guess -- guest today is well placed to judge. In a legal career

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spanning six decades, George Bizos defended Nelson Mandela and a host

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of other ANC leaders. He helped draft the post-apartheid

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constitution. Extraordinary achievements. Are they now under

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threat? George Bizos, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. It is a pleasure to have you here. You have played an

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extraordinary role in South Africa's modern history. If we go

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back to the beginning, would it be fair to say he became South African

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by chance? Absolutely. I was a 13- year-old refugee when I was taken

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from Egypt which was in danger of being conquered. You're taking it

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to Egypt by the British because you had to flee from the actual home in

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Greece? Yes. In order to help the soldiers that were trapped in

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Greece to escape from the Nazi occupation. They brought us to

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South Africa and waited to Egypt. But being a refugee once was enough.

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So there you were, in a strange new country thousands of miles from

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your homeland and within a decade or so, you had got a great

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education, you trained as a lawyer, to also seemed to have developed

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this burning commitment to human rights? I wonder where that

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commitment as a young man came from? I was radicalised in South

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Africa when I went to the University in Johannesburg. Most of

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the student body in 1948 had fought in the war and either postponed or

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delayed their studies. They were faced together with us, a minority

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elected government that did not support the war and introduced

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apartheid. The student body was up in arms. Both with the university

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authorities and the Government. This was not what they had fought

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for. Among West -- among my cohort was Nelson Mandela. What were your

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first impressions of him? How did you then come to be part of his

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defence team in those amazing days of the early 60s? He was a figure

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as a student no different to what the world has come to know of them.

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He was immaculately dressed, he was fearless, he was very articulate

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and spoke about a part tied and the regime and the unfairness of the

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treatment of the few black students at the University. We became

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friends. Was it clear to you even then that this man had something

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very special? Absolutely. Were you saying to yourself, I want to

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follow him? It was not a conscious decision. There were other black

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students and in the Faculty, particularly in medicine, and they

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were a powerful group to put pressure on the university

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authorities and had an effect on the student body as a whole.

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ended up in 1964 being an important member of the Mandela defence. I

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would like to quote you some of the very famous words Mandela came out

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with the end of the trial. I believe it was before sentencing.

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He talked of, "a struggle for the right to live. An ideal of a

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democratic free society for which I am prepared to die." they are

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amazing words. I wonder if you as one of his lawyers had a hand in

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putting them together? There is a long story here. Putting it --

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giving evidence in the treason trial, he gave lengthy evidence. We

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were guided as a team about what he would say. Contrary to the belief

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of many South Africans that a black man could not have put this speech

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together, it was a team effort. I am credited by one of the lawyer's

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of having contributed three words to that last paragraph. What were

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they? When he says that he was prepared to die, on the morning

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before he delivered it, I said our like to suggest an amendment. I

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said, just put the words, "If needs be." what was the significance? I

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did not want to suggest that he was seeking martyrdom. I said, you want

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to live and see established what you have fought for your life.

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trial and what the ANC was about at that time raises a big question for

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me. The ANC decided that such was the difficulty of the resistance

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struggle and the import for the people of South Africa that they

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would engage in arms struggle as well as resistance by peaceful

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means. Than raised all sorts of questions about the difference

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between a freedom fighter and a terrorist. Can you define for me

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what you believe is the threshold of oppression beyond which you can

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call yourself a freedom fighter? Laws which are or prohibiting any

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activity within the human rights area or should appear as a last

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resort -- should as a last resort be disobeyed. There is a difference

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between terrorism and legitimate resistance with elements of

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violence. The ANC unequivocally adopted the idea that every care

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should be taken that they should not be a loss of human life. So in

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your views -- in your view, the action that the ANC took was

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legitimate? There were legitimate as a last resort against a -- an

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oppressive regime. For over 50 years, we have been knocking on the

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door of the dead without any response. We have adopted this not

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for the purposes of overthrowing the state by violence but to show

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that the situation can't continue and we hope for a peaceful

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settlement to end the oppression and the violence. From the 50s to

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the present day you have been a lawyer and you have always worked

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for Human Rights. Did you at any point take the decision to formally

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joined the ANC? I never joined the ANC for a technical reason. If you

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become a member of a political organisation, you can't act for it.

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In court. Was your heart ANC? Absolutely. Unapologetically.

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Still? Yes. Unapologetically. I support the policies of the ANC.

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would like to talk about some of their reservations. You will one of

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the advisers on the work to draft the constitution which is seen

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around the world as a model of transparency and human rights. But

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there are many senior figures inside the ANC movement today who

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are putting extraordinary pressure on that constitution and suggesting

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that it is inadequate to deliver justice for the black majority in

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South Africa. There are two groups of critics of the constitution. The

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one that you mentioned and another consisting of privileged whites who

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do not distinguish between fundamental human rights and

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privileges. For the majority of people in the national executive of

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the ANC, there is a centre which does not support those few in the

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African National Congress to make adverse remarks every time they

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lose a case. I can quote some adverse remarks. I'm not convinced

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that these are just out riders because these are important people.

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The Secretary General for example says that the courts today in South

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Africa are acting as an oppositional and counter

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revolutionary force. I remember that well. The 4th -- former Chief

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Justice and I made a public statement that the Secretary

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General did not represent the spirit of the African National

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people. But he is the Secretary General. But he made that statement

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as a result of pressure. There are many people like him. For example,

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we had a deputy police minister questioning the integrity of white

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judges and magistrates. You can't become a deputy commissioner of

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police and not be an interpreter or of policy of the majority party in

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parliament. All these people who make these statements, the centre

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of the legal profession, the judges can't respond but we can. Every

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time such a statement is made, we go on record that this is not the

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constitution that we fought for and they have no right to make such

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remarks. Let me take it to the very top. Let's talk about the leader of

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your country. He said that once government has decided on the

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appropriate policy, the judiciary can't raise that as an opportunity

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to change policy. He is clearly We do not judge the policy. You can

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have whatever policy you want, with one proviso, that it is not -- that

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it does not contravene any of the fundamental rights guaranteed by

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the Bill of Rights in the constitution. He then explains

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himself. This is the problem with politicians. They make statements

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in public in order to be applauded by the audience. It is populism,

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isn't it? I wonder if you feel that he himself has a tendency to go in

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that direction. How do you feel about him appointing a new chief

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justice, it had to many a human rights lawyers, does not represent

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the majority of South African thinking it? I agree with that. I

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served 15 years on the Commission for the appointing a former Chief

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Justices and judges in the various courts. Let's be blunt done. What

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do you think about the appointment of the new Chief Justice? I have

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reservations, but, you know, I use the biblical - I am told, I had not

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read it myself - the apostle Paul said, there were a lot of quarrels

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about the appointment of bishops and he said, once a bishop has been

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a pointed, you must kneel and say, he has been appointed to last. What

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gives me confidence about the judiciary, despite the appointment

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of a comparatively experienced judge as the Chief Justice, there

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are nine and soon a tenth, judges. Even though he may have been

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perceived, including by me, has not the ideal person to be appointed.

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Nevertheless, I have confidence. The other nine judges that are

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there already are sufficiently strong to hold the ship on its

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course. You think that particular part of the checks and balances

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system in South Africa can withstand the pressure. What about

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one more, in brief, the media. We are seeing a protection of

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Information Bill being pushed by the Government, which would

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introduce draconian punishments for journalists who leak, or use a

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leaked government documents. They can be put in jail for 25 years,

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what you think about that? I am completely against it. I have

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condemned it, whenever I had been given an opportunity to speak in

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public. I think that those that are pushing the built in its current

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form must have consulted some clever colleague of mine that

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advise them, if they push it through, the constitutional court

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is likely to declare it unconstitutional. It has been on

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the paper of for over two years. They have now taking it off for the

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rest of the year. The Centre is holding. How long for, though? It

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seems to me that there is a profound anger among some in South

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Africa, particularly among the younger generation of black people,

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we still see the gross inequity in the country. They see the lack of

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housing, the fundamental lack of jobs. They also see the very rich,

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small percentage of people, at the top of society. A recent guest on

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HARDTalk expressed his anger on terms that many South Africans

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regard as populist and may be dangerous and divisive. I agree

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with that. But he is president of the ANC Youth League, which

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challenges your idea that all these people are truly insignificant.

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There is a difference between the North African sort of situation,

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that people who are protesting we had different ideas or are either

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ignored. This does not happen in South Africa. There are bodies such

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as the Human Rights Commission, the protector of the people's rights.

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There are numerous non-governmental organisations, like the one I am

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working for. Which you would Ardo are still part of the checks and

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balances? Yes. It strikes me that it is not about institutions, it is

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about individuals. It brings me back to Nelson Mandela. You still

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see him, you are one of his greatest long-standing friends. Do

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you wish, believe, that Mandela should speak out about the dangers

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to the constitution, to the balance of powers? He has withdrawn from

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private life. I know... After an early stage, when he did not stand

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for a second term, he had to say over and over again when he was

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asked to intervene - he had a simple question, go and ask Mike

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President. -- simple answer. He did not want to be a Court of Appeal

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for the Government that was duly elected. But that begs a question,

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is he out of sympathy with the current president, do you believe?

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He refuses to comment. He has only once seriously condemned the

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Government, with good result. That was on the question of Aids. When

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the policy was enunciated by the President. He condemned it in no

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uncertain terms over personal feelings. It was after what he

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considered catastrophic results as a result of this sort of negative

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policy in relation to trade and or acknowledgement of the size of the

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problem. -- treatment. He has not spoken out since then, in a

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political way. I tell you somebody who has and it is, in a sense

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continuing the theme about the power and struggle in the

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liberation of the country, Desmond Tutu. As you know, in the last few

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days, he has said the most passionate things about his

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concerns about today's south Africa. He says, as a result of them

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blocking the Dalai Lama coming to his 80th birthday party at, he said

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this, all the people involved in the liberation struggle must be

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turning in a grey today. He warned that, South Africans will one day

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pray for the fall of the ANC. will inevitably do so. I agree with

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the Archbishop, whom I personally consider one of my friends. He is a

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man that I admire. I am not taking him by the excuses of the

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Government -- taking in. What I would say is I was late in applying

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for my visa to the UK by only two days, when I noticed that my

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previous visa had expired. And you still got in? To be clear, you are

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saying that the Dalai Lama was refused entry because South Africa

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is friends with China? I have no doubt that it paid in important

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role. I think many of us should hold our heads down in Shane...

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What does this say about the present-day South Africa? A country

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that was born out of struggle should appreciate human rights more

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than any other. Is it South Africa, always the deputy minister? Was he

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told that it would be bad for trade between China and South Africa?

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question is, where are the next generation of people to speak out

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about this? Never mind Desmond Tutu or George Bizos, where are the next

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generation of leaders who will stand up to the direction it is

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taking? ISP to audiences of young students regularly. Mr Malema does

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not refute -- represent the vast majority of people in South Africa.

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