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mistakes. Right now, it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
South Africa's constitution is coming under mounting pressure. | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
Politicians are warning of the judges not to defy the will of the | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
people. Where does that leave the independence of the judiciary? My | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
guess -- guest today is well placed to judge. In a legal career | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
spanning six decades, George Bizos defended Nelson Mandela and a host | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
of other ANC leaders. He helped draft the post-apartheid | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
constitution. Extraordinary achievements. Are they now under | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :01:10. | ||
threat? George Bizos, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
Thank you. It is a pleasure to have you here. You have played an | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
extraordinary role in South Africa's modern history. If we go | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
back to the beginning, would it be fair to say he became South African | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
by chance? Absolutely. I was a 13- year-old refugee when I was taken | :01:33. | :01:41. | |
from Egypt which was in danger of being conquered. You're taking it | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
to Egypt by the British because you had to flee from the actual home in | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
Greece? Yes. In order to help the soldiers that were trapped in | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
Greece to escape from the Nazi occupation. They brought us to | :01:59. | :02:09. | |
:02:09. | :02:11. | ||
South Africa and waited to Egypt. But being a refugee once was enough. | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
So there you were, in a strange new country thousands of miles from | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
your homeland and within a decade or so, you had got a great | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
education, you trained as a lawyer, to also seemed to have developed | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
this burning commitment to human rights? I wonder where that | :02:33. | :02:41. | |
commitment as a young man came from? I was radicalised in South | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
Africa when I went to the University in Johannesburg. Most of | :02:48. | :02:56. | |
the student body in 1948 had fought in the war and either postponed or | :02:56. | :03:05. | |
delayed their studies. They were faced together with us, a minority | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
elected government that did not support the war and introduced | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
apartheid. The student body was up in arms. Both with the university | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
authorities and the Government. This was not what they had fought | :03:24. | :03:34. | |
:03:34. | :03:39. | ||
for. Among West -- among my cohort was Nelson Mandela. What were your | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
first impressions of him? How did you then come to be part of his | :03:44. | :03:52. | |
defence team in those amazing days of the early 60s? He was a figure | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
as a student no different to what the world has come to know of them. | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
He was immaculately dressed, he was fearless, he was very articulate | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
and spoke about a part tied and the regime and the unfairness of the | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
treatment of the few black students at the University. We became | :04:18. | :04:26. | |
friends. Was it clear to you even then that this man had something | :04:26. | :04:34. | |
very special? Absolutely. Were you saying to yourself, I want to | :04:34. | :04:44. | |
:04:44. | :04:52. | ||
follow him? It was not a conscious decision. There were other black | :04:52. | :05:02. | |
:05:02. | :05:03. | ||
students and in the Faculty, particularly in medicine, and they | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
were a powerful group to put pressure on the university | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
authorities and had an effect on the student body as a whole. | :05:13. | :05:23. | |
:05:23. | :05:23. | ||
ended up in 1964 being an important member of the Mandela defence. I | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
would like to quote you some of the very famous words Mandela came out | :05:27. | :05:35. | |
with the end of the trial. I believe it was before sentencing. | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
He talked of, "a struggle for the right to live. An ideal of a | :05:41. | :05:51. | |
:05:51. | :05:52. | ||
democratic free society for which I am prepared to die." they are | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
amazing words. I wonder if you as one of his lawyers had a hand in | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
putting them together? There is a long story here. Putting it -- | :06:02. | :06:12. | |
:06:12. | :06:15. | ||
giving evidence in the treason trial, he gave lengthy evidence. We | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
were guided as a team about what he would say. Contrary to the belief | :06:22. | :06:32. | |
of many South Africans that a black man could not have put this speech | :06:32. | :06:42. | |
:06:42. | :06:43. | ||
together, it was a team effort. I am credited by one of the lawyer's | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
of having contributed three words to that last paragraph. What were | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
they? When he says that he was prepared to die, on the morning | :06:55. | :07:04. | |
before he delivered it, I said our like to suggest an amendment. I | :07:04. | :07:13. | |
said, just put the words, "If needs be." what was the significance? I | :07:13. | :07:23. | |
:07:23. | :07:24. | ||
did not want to suggest that he was seeking martyrdom. I said, you want | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
to live and see established what you have fought for your life. | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
trial and what the ANC was about at that time raises a big question for | :07:32. | :07:42. | |
:07:42. | :07:44. | ||
me. The ANC decided that such was the difficulty of the resistance | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
struggle and the import for the people of South Africa that they | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
would engage in arms struggle as well as resistance by peaceful | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
means. Than raised all sorts of questions about the difference | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
between a freedom fighter and a terrorist. Can you define for me | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
what you believe is the threshold of oppression beyond which you can | :08:09. | :08:19. | |
:08:19. | :08:24. | ||
call yourself a freedom fighter? Laws which are or prohibiting any | :08:24. | :08:34. | |
:08:34. | :08:34. | ||
activity within the human rights area or should appear as a last | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
resort -- should as a last resort be disobeyed. There is a difference | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
between terrorism and legitimate resistance with elements of | :08:47. | :08:57. | |
:08:57. | :08:58. | ||
violence. The ANC unequivocally adopted the idea that every care | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
should be taken that they should not be a loss of human life. So in | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
your views -- in your view, the action that the ANC took was | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
legitimate? There were legitimate as a last resort against a -- an | :09:17. | :09:26. | |
oppressive regime. For over 50 years, we have been knocking on the | :09:26. | :09:33. | |
door of the dead without any response. We have adopted this not | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
for the purposes of overthrowing the state by violence but to show | :09:37. | :09:45. | |
that the situation can't continue and we hope for a peaceful | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
settlement to end the oppression and the violence. From the 50s to | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
the present day you have been a lawyer and you have always worked | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
for Human Rights. Did you at any point take the decision to formally | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
joined the ANC? I never joined the ANC for a technical reason. If you | :10:07. | :10:15. | |
become a member of a political organisation, you can't act for it. | :10:15. | :10:23. | |
In court. Was your heart ANC? Absolutely. Unapologetically. | :10:23. | :10:33. | |
:10:33. | :10:39. | ||
Still? Yes. Unapologetically. I support the policies of the ANC. | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
would like to talk about some of their reservations. You will one of | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
the advisers on the work to draft the constitution which is seen | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
around the world as a model of transparency and human rights. But | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
there are many senior figures inside the ANC movement today who | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
are putting extraordinary pressure on that constitution and suggesting | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
that it is inadequate to deliver justice for the black majority in | :11:09. | :11:19. | |
:11:19. | :11:20. | ||
South Africa. There are two groups of critics of the constitution. The | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
one that you mentioned and another consisting of privileged whites who | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
do not distinguish between fundamental human rights and | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
privileges. For the majority of people in the national executive of | :11:36. | :11:46. | |
:11:46. | :11:52. | ||
the ANC, there is a centre which does not support those few in the | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
African National Congress to make adverse remarks every time they | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
lose a case. I can quote some adverse remarks. I'm not convinced | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
that these are just out riders because these are important people. | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
The Secretary General for example says that the courts today in South | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
Africa are acting as an oppositional and counter | :12:14. | :12:24. | |
:12:24. | :12:28. | ||
revolutionary force. I remember that well. The 4th -- former Chief | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Justice and I made a public statement that the Secretary | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
General did not represent the spirit of the African National | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
people. But he is the Secretary General. But he made that statement | :12:45. | :12:55. | |
:12:55. | :12:56. | ||
as a result of pressure. There are many people like him. For example, | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
we had a deputy police minister questioning the integrity of white | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
judges and magistrates. You can't become a deputy commissioner of | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
police and not be an interpreter or of policy of the majority party in | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
parliament. All these people who make these statements, the centre | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
of the legal profession, the judges can't respond but we can. Every | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
time such a statement is made, we go on record that this is not the | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
constitution that we fought for and they have no right to make such | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
remarks. Let me take it to the very top. Let's talk about the leader of | :13:45. | :13:52. | |
your country. He said that once government has decided on the | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
appropriate policy, the judiciary can't raise that as an opportunity | :13:59. | :14:09. | |
:14:09. | :14:12. | ||
to change policy. He is clearly We do not judge the policy. You can | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
have whatever policy you want, with one proviso, that it is not -- that | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
it does not contravene any of the fundamental rights guaranteed by | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
the Bill of Rights in the constitution. He then explains | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
himself. This is the problem with politicians. They make statements | :14:32. | :14:40. | |
in public in order to be applauded by the audience. It is populism, | :14:41. | :14:49. | |
isn't it? I wonder if you feel that he himself has a tendency to go in | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
that direction. How do you feel about him appointing a new chief | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
justice, it had to many a human rights lawyers, does not represent | :14:59. | :15:08. | |
the majority of South African thinking it? I agree with that. I | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
served 15 years on the Commission for the appointing a former Chief | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
Justices and judges in the various courts. Let's be blunt done. What | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
do you think about the appointment of the new Chief Justice? I have | :15:24. | :15:34. | |
:15:34. | :15:35. | ||
reservations, but, you know, I use the biblical - I am told, I had not | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
read it myself - the apostle Paul said, there were a lot of quarrels | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
about the appointment of bishops and he said, once a bishop has been | :15:45. | :15:53. | |
a pointed, you must kneel and say, he has been appointed to last. What | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
gives me confidence about the judiciary, despite the appointment | :15:58. | :16:07. | |
of a comparatively experienced judge as the Chief Justice, there | :16:07. | :16:17. | |
:16:17. | :16:18. | ||
are nine and soon a tenth, judges. Even though he may have been | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
perceived, including by me, has not the ideal person to be appointed. | :16:26. | :16:34. | |
Nevertheless, I have confidence. The other nine judges that are | :16:34. | :16:43. | |
there already are sufficiently strong to hold the ship on its | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
course. You think that particular part of the checks and balances | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
system in South Africa can withstand the pressure. What about | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
one more, in brief, the media. We are seeing a protection of | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Information Bill being pushed by the Government, which would | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
introduce draconian punishments for journalists who leak, or use a | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
leaked government documents. They can be put in jail for 25 years, | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
what you think about that? I am completely against it. I have | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
condemned it, whenever I had been given an opportunity to speak in | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
public. I think that those that are pushing the built in its current | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
form must have consulted some clever colleague of mine that | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
advise them, if they push it through, the constitutional court | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
is likely to declare it unconstitutional. It has been on | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
the paper of for over two years. They have now taking it off for the | :17:42. | :17:52. | |
:17:52. | :17:52. | ||
rest of the year. The Centre is holding. How long for, though? It | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
seems to me that there is a profound anger among some in South | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
Africa, particularly among the younger generation of black people, | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
we still see the gross inequity in the country. They see the lack of | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
housing, the fundamental lack of jobs. They also see the very rich, | :18:08. | :18:16. | |
small percentage of people, at the top of society. A recent guest on | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
HARDTalk expressed his anger on terms that many South Africans | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
regard as populist and may be dangerous and divisive. I agree | :18:27. | :18:37. | |
with that. But he is president of the ANC Youth League, which | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
challenges your idea that all these people are truly insignificant. | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
There is a difference between the North African sort of situation, | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
that people who are protesting we had different ideas or are either | :18:53. | :19:03. | |
:19:03. | :19:05. | ||
ignored. This does not happen in South Africa. There are bodies such | :19:05. | :19:15. | |
:19:15. | :19:20. | ||
as the Human Rights Commission, the protector of the people's rights. | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
There are numerous non-governmental organisations, like the one I am | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
working for. Which you would Ardo are still part of the checks and | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
balances? Yes. It strikes me that it is not about institutions, it is | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
about individuals. It brings me back to Nelson Mandela. You still | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
see him, you are one of his greatest long-standing friends. Do | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
you wish, believe, that Mandela should speak out about the dangers | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
to the constitution, to the balance of powers? He has withdrawn from | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
private life. I know... After an early stage, when he did not stand | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
for a second term, he had to say over and over again when he was | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
asked to intervene - he had a simple question, go and ask Mike | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
President. -- simple answer. He did not want to be a Court of Appeal | :20:24. | :20:34. | |
for the Government that was duly elected. But that begs a question, | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
is he out of sympathy with the current president, do you believe? | :20:39. | :20:49. | |
:20:49. | :20:49. | ||
He refuses to comment. He has only once seriously condemned the | :20:49. | :20:57. | |
Government, with good result. That was on the question of Aids. When | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
the policy was enunciated by the President. He condemned it in no | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
uncertain terms over personal feelings. It was after what he | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
considered catastrophic results as a result of this sort of negative | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
policy in relation to trade and or acknowledgement of the size of the | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
problem. -- treatment. He has not spoken out since then, in a | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
political way. I tell you somebody who has and it is, in a sense | :21:31. | :21:40. | |
continuing the theme about the power and struggle in the | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
liberation of the country, Desmond Tutu. As you know, in the last few | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
days, he has said the most passionate things about his | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
concerns about today's south Africa. He says, as a result of them | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
blocking the Dalai Lama coming to his 80th birthday party at, he said | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
this, all the people involved in the liberation struggle must be | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
turning in a grey today. He warned that, South Africans will one day | :22:08. | :22:17. | |
pray for the fall of the ANC. will inevitably do so. I agree with | :22:17. | :22:27. | |
:22:27. | :22:34. | ||
the Archbishop, whom I personally consider one of my friends. He is a | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
man that I admire. I am not taking him by the excuses of the | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
Government -- taking in. What I would say is I was late in applying | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
for my visa to the UK by only two days, when I noticed that my | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
previous visa had expired. And you still got in? To be clear, you are | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
saying that the Dalai Lama was refused entry because South Africa | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
is friends with China? I have no doubt that it paid in important | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
role. I think many of us should hold our heads down in Shane... | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
What does this say about the present-day South Africa? A country | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
that was born out of struggle should appreciate human rights more | :23:24. | :23:34. | |
:23:34. | :23:34. | ||
than any other. Is it South Africa, always the deputy minister? Was he | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
told that it would be bad for trade between China and South Africa? | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
question is, where are the next generation of people to speak out | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
about this? Never mind Desmond Tutu or George Bizos, where are the next | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
generation of leaders who will stand up to the direction it is | :23:50. | :24:00. | |
:24:00. | :24:08. | ||
taking? ISP to audiences of young students regularly. Mr Malema does | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
not refute -- represent the vast majority of people in South Africa. | :24:12. | :24:20. |