Bob Fu - President, China Aid HARDtalk


Bob Fu - President, China Aid

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defectors in one town. Those are the headlines. Now it is

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time for HARDtalk. There has been no flowering of a

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political Spring in China. The revolutionary fervour in the Middle

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East seems to have prompted a new crackdown on dissidents in Beijing.

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But just how repressive is the Chinese government and how much the

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Western governments care? My guests today, Bob Fu, is the former

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student activist who runs the US- based Christian group, China Aid.

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How well do we understand what is happening inside the world's rise

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Bob Fu, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me. After the Arab

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Spring burst into life the earlier this year, there was plenty of

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speculation that political protests and demonstrations would spread to

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Beijing, to turn. It did not happen. Why? The Chinese political

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activists or dissidents were preparing to do something. They

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were encouraged by the courageous acts in the Arab world and by the

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citizens axe. And unfortunately, the Chinese government took

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unprecedented crackdown procedures with this panicked mood. They

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basically pre-empted the kidnapped -- pre-empted the axe and kidnapped

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people and even cracked down on certain churches across the board.

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I read about arrests in Beijing. We saw dozens of human rights lawyers

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arrested, very high profile figures like Ai Weiwei who were taken into

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detention, but are you suggesting this was beyond Beijing? This was a

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national systematic repression? is. It is not only happening in

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Beijing. We have no use in other areas picked up and kidnapped. One

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particular lawyer has only been released after six or seven months.

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We have people in other provinces having a certain elements crackdown

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on. Human rights lawyers seem to have a bore the brunt of things in

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the last few months. You eluded to a crackdown on the unofficial

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Chinese Christian churches. It seems to me that what the Chinese

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udderly at the moment is directed at political dissidents, not that

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religion, Christianity. The Chinese persecution does indeed target

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political dissidents but at the same time the underground, the

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unofficial churches, are also being targeted. It may not be related

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purely to the Arab Spring but the fact that the past has were

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kidnapped and sentenced for re- education through labour. One

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example, one of the largest churches in Beijing with over 1,000

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members, since April 10th, all of their members were forbidden to

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worship together in their location and their own purchased building

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was forbidden. All of the pastor's had been under house arrest without

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any freedom since then. But Bob Fu, let us go back to basics. On this

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question of exactly what the Chinese government's reaction is to

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Christianity in China. It is complicated. To be crude,

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Christianity is legal in China. That is clear, is it not? It is

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legal in the form of the government sanctioned three cell Patriotic

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Movement church. But if you choose to exercise or manifest your

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religious freedom and then you will face lots of limitation, crackdown

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or arrest. Again,... But that cannot actually be true because if

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one looks at the figures, you talk about the self patriotic movement

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that is the main official churches, official Protestant and Catholic

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churches, we believe may be 20 to 30 million people worship at these

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official churches. But all sorts of different sources say that perhaps

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40 or 50 million people worship at unofficial, sometimes called the

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House network of churches. The Chinese government is not stupid.

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The authorities are well versed in monitoring their own people. They

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know that is going on but they allow it to happen. Legally, these

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40 or 60 million of house churches that choose to worship in their own

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homes or rental buildings, their status is actually illegal. What I

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am saying is, it is legal but tolerated. It is -- it seemed to be

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more tolerated than before because the number of these churches are

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rising. Yes they are rising but their status is still declared

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illegal. The government can take any action at any moment. Imagine

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in any given Sunday when a member of the Sturge, in the capital city

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of Beijing, -- member of the Church, and you want to worship, they

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already have a card and members have to climb out of the window and

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hide in hotels or in parks in order to go to their worship service.

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This is still happening since 10th April. So we are talking about

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religious freedom in China, you could be sentenced to 15 years.

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it is clearly not like the attitude that the Chinese Government brings

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forward. There is a tolerance even of the unofficial house churches

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inside China which is not there for some other religious movements

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inside the country. Do you accept that? You are right. There is a

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different tactic in handling other types of religions. At least Father

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Gong does not even have the ability to exist. The more I look into this,

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the more I get the impression that there are many people in the church

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movement who are beginning to see a different kind of, different from

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the one you betray. I was very taken by the work of one evangelist

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who makes many visits to China. But his last visit, these are some of

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the things he said. Chinese people enjoy more religious freedom than

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people overseas imagine. He addressed a crowd of 8,000 people

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at an open-air worship and said, I have been coming here for ten years

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and am encouraged by the spiritual growth. Many distinguished Bible

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Peters and pastas are emerging. They are open about their fate, and

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I have great dreams for China. All of this in the open. He says, I am

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not controlled when I come here at all. I know that man a die have

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interaction with him. I admire him. -- that man and I have interaction.

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To preach even to a larger crowd, he can do that. But persecution

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still exist. You cannot ignore certain lawyers who lose their

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licences and have to shut down their law firms, are kidnapped,

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tortured with a cigarette in his eyes, and still missing for years.

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But is that more for legal work and challenges presented to authority

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than the practice in of an underground Christian belief?

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also a member of the underground house church movement. Other house

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church leaders, one leader recently was arrested and sentenced to two

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years education in a labour camp for leading a church. Another was

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simply leading a group of worshippers and sentenced to 15

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years in 2009. He is still serving his sentence. I suppose the

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question, I am trying to define the balance between the big picture and

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the imported individual cases you are putting to me. Tell me more

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about China Aid. You raise money, you raise awareness, you lobby in

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the US, but the also try to follow funding and active support and

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training to Christian preachers and to Christian activists inside

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China? Yes we do. We are a Christian non-profit organisation

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based in the US and are partnered with other global organisations.

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And what our ministry focus is, is to expose abuses and encourage use

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adequate leaders. We do advocacy work and we also provide financial

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support for those who are abused. We also provide legal aid to those

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who are prosecuted in justly. when you are trying to raise money,

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I do not doubt the veracity of individual cases, Unita paid as

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bleak a picture as possible in many ways to get as much money as

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possible. -- you need to paint as bleak. One man in the US has looked

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at the movement and says the talk of having to smuggle Bibles into

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China, you do not need to do that. He says he transport them easily to

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rural churches. I wonder if some of the way you betray what you are

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doing is a little bit more melodramatic than it needs to be? -

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- the way you portray. It is not just about the government

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sanctioned a church. They have been many books on China. One writer

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says millions of house church Christians gather every Sunday,

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Sunday congregations of many hundreds, and do not fear being

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arrested. Is it the individual picture you are painting? I know we

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have people underground and are doing the investigations and

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reporting, verification of our reports. So it is not only one or

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two or 100 cases in the past few years, we documented thousands of

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cases. But to get back to this -- the claims that there is religious

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freedom in China already, the barbels are free to all, I do not

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deny that. -- the Bibles. But there is one single fact, that not a

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single copy of the Bible is allowed to be sold near any public

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bookstall. Is that religious freedom? If you distribute some

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Bibles outside the four walls of the Tote building of a government

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sanctioned Church, you will know what will happen. You will have a

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minimum of paying a fine or be arrested. I tell my foreign friends,

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if they believed China has a religious freedom, bloated

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Tiananmen Square or a public square. -- go to. Let me ask you about your

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strongest supporters will allies in the US. Would it be fair to

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characterise them as Christian Conservatives who are deeply

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evangelical, they want to see more Christians converted to Christians

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in the world, conversions, and they also want to see a very strong

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anti- abortion message, for example, delivered around the world. Would

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that be a fair comment about your fund has? The majority of our

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supporters are conservative Christians in the US and around the

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globe. But because are causes to without religious freedom in China.

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What about finding new converts, is that part of your mission? No. That

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is what they call mission of China Aid. Ours is the wood that

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religious freedom in China. That is why we chose to work with human

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rights defenders and leaders. It is a common cause. If China becomes a

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democracy of freedom, it means we defend freedom for a fierce and up

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I wonder whether you fully sympathise with some of your

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strongest supporters, you sit next to one of the most staunch anti-

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abortion campaigners in the US today. He condemns China for its

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opinion on abortion. He is a man who condemns China for other

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reasons as well. Is he so mind you sympathise with politically?

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the same message. I respect him and admire his courage. Nowadays in the

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West, we do not find much warriors to stand up for basic issues like

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religious freedom and a rule of law in China. Like human rights

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abuses... The majority of Western businessmen choose to be silent.

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Chris Smith, his message resonates with me, it is not about the US

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politics of anti-abortion. Whether you approve its or a pro-life,

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forced abortion is not a choice. Forced abortion in China is massive.

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In 30 years of one-child policy, at least 100,000 babies were aborted

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by force. That was done by own family members. I remember when I

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was a small child, the family planning a -- official jumped into

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my yard and arrested my brother. They took hiey took hikroom, dozens

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of people beat him up. It was because my sister-in-law was

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pregnant and hiding in another village. You are happy to line up

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with the Congressman Smith, how do you feel about America's leaders?

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What we have seen over the past 15- 20 years, a succession of

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presidents who have been pragmatic when it comes to China. That is

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true. We have more concerned about the global, US interest,

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unfortunately, some President took human rights on the sideline.

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decided to condemn President Obama 1 year ago very loudly. You said

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there has been silence on China and the issue of human rights. They

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admitted that they are silent. They have demonstrated that. President

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Obama has made speeches about human rights and the universality of

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human rights. But in a very difficult world economy, where

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trade and currency issues are very important, to quote Hillary Clinton,

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if you are in the same boat you have to row in the same direction

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or you calls turmoil. That is pragmatic global politics. You

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cannot order it around and expected to listen. She also changed course

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her speech afterwards. She said China is on the wrong side of

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history. If story. If US deeply believe we are in the same boat,

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how can we claim that we are sh shsame values? To align

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ourselves with a human rights abuses, I think that is very

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dangerous. You and your wife fled from China in 1997. We are talking

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14 years ago. Do you think you have a sense of the dynamic within

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Chinese politics, political culture today? Maybe you are

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underestimating the potential for change in China today? I'm a

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optimists. I am very optimistic about China's future. I see how the

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ordinary citizens, their courage and pursuit of freedom. When you

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see human rights defenders, including Ai Weiwei, after so much

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abuse and torture, therture, the choose to speak up. That is the

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real strength of the Chinese civil society. There is no doubting the

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carriage of people like Ai Weiwei and others, but I am more

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interested about what is happening within the Communist Party. It is

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interesting to me, you as a young man were convinced you could change

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the party from within. That is why you were in Tiananmen Square in the

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first place. You had faith that the party could change, had the last

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that completely? We almost lost the faith when the Chinese military

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tanks started crashing the innocent students and cost hundreds if not

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thousands of lives. We are hopeful, we want the party to reform. We

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want the reformers to take action to demonstrate that they care about

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a brighter and better China. I do believe there are some still...

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Given the emotional roller-coaster at you when time as a result of

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what happened in 89, I wonder what you think when Premier Wen Jiabao,

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who are seeing as reformers, have said we have to push forward with

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political reform otherwise we would jeopardise our economic reform and

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the goal of modernisation. Do you take that seriously or not?

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words need to be met with actions. What did he do? What has he done?

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What about signs of democracy within the village movement? Even

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within the Communist Party apparatus, at a lower level, we

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have seen this book, democracy is a good thing, he has pushed

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democratic elections for low-level posts. What I have learned and many

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other credible organisations, all of these independent candidates,

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who want to participate in a civil society and a free elections... To

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campaign peacefully, none of them was admitted. Some of them were

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kidnapped and put in a darkroom. Only recently has he resurfaced.

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All of the independent candidates are not allowed into the process.

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Most of them have been illegally detained. Yet, you tell me you are

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still an optimist. You are a practising pastor, you are a man of

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great faith, you have been invited back to China by other people of

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faith, will you consider going? Every day I wake up, my number one

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fear is going home. I have been missing my piece of land for 15

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years. On the other hand, I know the Chinese government... They are

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not going to let me in their peacefully. Are you sure about

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that? They have let other pastors in peacefully. I am not the foreign

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athletes in the Christian community. -- elite. Some pastors told the

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reporters that the security forces wanted them to bring me there are

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so they could arrest me. You have three children in the US, when you

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look at your children, do you believe there is a possibility for

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them to live their lives as Christians in China? I do believe

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and I do have that faith and confidence. That is one of the

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motivations for why I'm doing what I'm doing. Not only for my

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generation, I want my children to enjoy the freedom to sleep

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