Browse content similar to Bob Fu - President, China Aid. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
defectors in one town. Those are the headlines. Now it is | :00:03. | :00:12. | |
time for HARDtalk. There has been no flowering of a | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
political Spring in China. The revolutionary fervour in the Middle | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
East seems to have prompted a new crackdown on dissidents in Beijing. | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
But just how repressive is the Chinese government and how much the | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
Western governments care? My guests today, Bob Fu, is the former | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
student activist who runs the US- based Christian group, China Aid. | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
How well do we understand what is happening inside the world's rise | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
:00:50. | :01:12. | ||
Bob Fu, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me. After the Arab | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
Spring burst into life the earlier this year, there was plenty of | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
speculation that political protests and demonstrations would spread to | :01:21. | :01:29. | |
Beijing, to turn. It did not happen. Why? The Chinese political | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
activists or dissidents were preparing to do something. They | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
were encouraged by the courageous acts in the Arab world and by the | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
citizens axe. And unfortunately, the Chinese government took | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
unprecedented crackdown procedures with this panicked mood. They | :01:52. | :02:02. | |
:02:02. | :02:03. | ||
basically pre-empted the kidnapped -- pre-empted the axe and kidnapped | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
people and even cracked down on certain churches across the board. | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
I read about arrests in Beijing. We saw dozens of human rights lawyers | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
arrested, very high profile figures like Ai Weiwei who were taken into | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
detention, but are you suggesting this was beyond Beijing? This was a | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
national systematic repression? is. It is not only happening in | :02:29. | :02:37. | |
Beijing. We have no use in other areas picked up and kidnapped. One | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
particular lawyer has only been released after six or seven months. | :02:42. | :02:52. | |
:02:52. | :03:00. | ||
We have people in other provinces having a certain elements crackdown | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
on. Human rights lawyers seem to have a bore the brunt of things in | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
the last few months. You eluded to a crackdown on the unofficial | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
Chinese Christian churches. It seems to me that what the Chinese | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
udderly at the moment is directed at political dissidents, not that | :03:17. | :03:26. | |
religion, Christianity. The Chinese persecution does indeed target | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
political dissidents but at the same time the underground, the | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
unofficial churches, are also being targeted. It may not be related | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
purely to the Arab Spring but the fact that the past has were | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
kidnapped and sentenced for re- education through labour. One | :03:51. | :03:59. | |
example, one of the largest churches in Beijing with over 1,000 | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
members, since April 10th, all of their members were forbidden to | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
worship together in their location and their own purchased building | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
was forbidden. All of the pastor's had been under house arrest without | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
any freedom since then. But Bob Fu, let us go back to basics. On this | :04:24. | :04:32. | |
question of exactly what the Chinese government's reaction is to | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
Christianity in China. It is complicated. To be crude, | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
Christianity is legal in China. That is clear, is it not? It is | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
legal in the form of the government sanctioned three cell Patriotic | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
Movement church. But if you choose to exercise or manifest your | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
religious freedom and then you will face lots of limitation, crackdown | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
or arrest. Again,... But that cannot actually be true because if | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
one looks at the figures, you talk about the self patriotic movement | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
that is the main official churches, official Protestant and Catholic | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
churches, we believe may be 20 to 30 million people worship at these | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
official churches. But all sorts of different sources say that perhaps | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
40 or 50 million people worship at unofficial, sometimes called the | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
House network of churches. The Chinese government is not stupid. | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
The authorities are well versed in monitoring their own people. They | :05:41. | :05:49. | |
know that is going on but they allow it to happen. Legally, these | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
40 or 60 million of house churches that choose to worship in their own | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
homes or rental buildings, their status is actually illegal. What I | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
am saying is, it is legal but tolerated. It is -- it seemed to be | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
more tolerated than before because the number of these churches are | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
rising. Yes they are rising but their status is still declared | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
illegal. The government can take any action at any moment. Imagine | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
in any given Sunday when a member of the Sturge, in the capital city | :06:28. | :06:38. | |
:06:38. | :06:38. | ||
of Beijing, -- member of the Church, and you want to worship, they | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
already have a card and members have to climb out of the window and | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
hide in hotels or in parks in order to go to their worship service. | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
This is still happening since 10th April. So we are talking about | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
religious freedom in China, you could be sentenced to 15 years. | :06:59. | :07:07. | |
it is clearly not like the attitude that the Chinese Government brings | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
forward. There is a tolerance even of the unofficial house churches | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
inside China which is not there for some other religious movements | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
inside the country. Do you accept that? You are right. There is a | :07:21. | :07:31. | |
:07:31. | :07:35. | ||
different tactic in handling other types of religions. At least Father | :07:35. | :07:44. | |
Gong does not even have the ability to exist. The more I look into this, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
the more I get the impression that there are many people in the church | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
movement who are beginning to see a different kind of, different from | :07:53. | :08:00. | |
the one you betray. I was very taken by the work of one evangelist | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
who makes many visits to China. But his last visit, these are some of | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
the things he said. Chinese people enjoy more religious freedom than | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
people overseas imagine. He addressed a crowd of 8,000 people | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
at an open-air worship and said, I have been coming here for ten years | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
and am encouraged by the spiritual growth. Many distinguished Bible | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
Peters and pastas are emerging. They are open about their fate, and | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
I have great dreams for China. All of this in the open. He says, I am | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
not controlled when I come here at all. I know that man a die have | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
interaction with him. I admire him. -- that man and I have interaction. | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
To preach even to a larger crowd, he can do that. But persecution | :08:55. | :09:05. | |
:09:05. | :09:08. | ||
still exist. You cannot ignore certain lawyers who lose their | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
licences and have to shut down their law firms, are kidnapped, | :09:14. | :09:24. | |
tortured with a cigarette in his eyes, and still missing for years. | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
But is that more for legal work and challenges presented to authority | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
than the practice in of an underground Christian belief? | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
also a member of the underground house church movement. Other house | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
church leaders, one leader recently was arrested and sentenced to two | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
years education in a labour camp for leading a church. Another was | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
simply leading a group of worshippers and sentenced to 15 | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
years in 2009. He is still serving his sentence. I suppose the | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
question, I am trying to define the balance between the big picture and | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
the imported individual cases you are putting to me. Tell me more | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
about China Aid. You raise money, you raise awareness, you lobby in | :10:20. | :10:27. | |
the US, but the also try to follow funding and active support and | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
training to Christian preachers and to Christian activists inside | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
China? Yes we do. We are a Christian non-profit organisation | :10:37. | :10:46. | |
based in the US and are partnered with other global organisations. | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
And what our ministry focus is, is to expose abuses and encourage use | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
adequate leaders. We do advocacy work and we also provide financial | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
support for those who are abused. We also provide legal aid to those | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
who are prosecuted in justly. when you are trying to raise money, | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
I do not doubt the veracity of individual cases, Unita paid as | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
bleak a picture as possible in many ways to get as much money as | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
possible. -- you need to paint as bleak. One man in the US has looked | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
at the movement and says the talk of having to smuggle Bibles into | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
China, you do not need to do that. He says he transport them easily to | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
rural churches. I wonder if some of the way you betray what you are | :11:38. | :11:47. | |
doing is a little bit more melodramatic than it needs to be? - | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
- the way you portray. It is not just about the government | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
sanctioned a church. They have been many books on China. One writer | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
says millions of house church Christians gather every Sunday, | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
Sunday congregations of many hundreds, and do not fear being | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
arrested. Is it the individual picture you are painting? I know we | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
have people underground and are doing the investigations and | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
reporting, verification of our reports. So it is not only one or | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
two or 100 cases in the past few years, we documented thousands of | :12:29. | :12:37. | |
cases. But to get back to this -- the claims that there is religious | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
freedom in China already, the barbels are free to all, I do not | :12:43. | :12:51. | |
deny that. -- the Bibles. But there is one single fact, that not a | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
single copy of the Bible is allowed to be sold near any public | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
bookstall. Is that religious freedom? If you distribute some | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
Bibles outside the four walls of the Tote building of a government | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
sanctioned Church, you will know what will happen. You will have a | :13:09. | :13:18. | |
minimum of paying a fine or be arrested. I tell my foreign friends, | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
if they believed China has a religious freedom, bloated | :13:21. | :13:29. | |
Tiananmen Square or a public square. -- go to. Let me ask you about your | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
strongest supporters will allies in the US. Would it be fair to | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
characterise them as Christian Conservatives who are deeply | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
evangelical, they want to see more Christians converted to Christians | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
in the world, conversions, and they also want to see a very strong | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
anti- abortion message, for example, delivered around the world. Would | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
that be a fair comment about your fund has? The majority of our | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
supporters are conservative Christians in the US and around the | :14:01. | :14:10. | |
globe. But because are causes to without religious freedom in China. | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
What about finding new converts, is that part of your mission? No. That | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
is what they call mission of China Aid. Ours is the wood that | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
religious freedom in China. That is why we chose to work with human | :14:24. | :14:32. | |
rights defenders and leaders. It is a common cause. If China becomes a | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
democracy of freedom, it means we defend freedom for a fierce and up | :14:37. | :14:47. | |
:14:47. | :14:47. | ||
I wonder whether you fully sympathise with some of your | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
strongest supporters, you sit next to one of the most staunch anti- | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
abortion campaigners in the US today. He condemns China for its | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
opinion on abortion. He is a man who condemns China for other | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
reasons as well. Is he so mind you sympathise with politically? | :15:10. | :15:20. | |
the same message. I respect him and admire his courage. Nowadays in the | :15:20. | :15:27. | |
West, we do not find much warriors to stand up for basic issues like | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
religious freedom and a rule of law in China. Like human rights | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
abuses... The majority of Western businessmen choose to be silent. | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
Chris Smith, his message resonates with me, it is not about the US | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
politics of anti-abortion. Whether you approve its or a pro-life, | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
forced abortion is not a choice. Forced abortion in China is massive. | :15:58. | :16:06. | |
In 30 years of one-child policy, at least 100,000 babies were aborted | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
by force. That was done by own family members. I remember when I | :16:14. | :16:22. | |
was a small child, the family planning a -- official jumped into | :16:23. | :16:32. | |
my yard and arrested my brother. They took hiey took hikroom, dozens | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
of people beat him up. It was because my sister-in-law was | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
pregnant and hiding in another village. You are happy to line up | :16:41. | :16:49. | |
with the Congressman Smith, how do you feel about America's leaders? | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
What we have seen over the past 15- 20 years, a succession of | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
presidents who have been pragmatic when it comes to China. That is | :17:01. | :17:09. | |
true. We have more concerned about the global, US interest, | :17:09. | :17:19. | |
:17:19. | :17:22. | ||
unfortunately, some President took human rights on the sideline. | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
decided to condemn President Obama 1 year ago very loudly. You said | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
there has been silence on China and the issue of human rights. They | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
admitted that they are silent. They have demonstrated that. President | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
Obama has made speeches about human rights and the universality of | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
human rights. But in a very difficult world economy, where | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
trade and currency issues are very important, to quote Hillary Clinton, | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
if you are in the same boat you have to row in the same direction | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
or you calls turmoil. That is pragmatic global politics. You | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
cannot order it around and expected to listen. She also changed course | :18:13. | :18:21. | |
her speech afterwards. She said China is on the wrong side of | :18:21. | :18:31. | |
:18:31. | :18:32. | ||
history. If story. If US deeply believe we are in the same boat, | :18:32. | :18:42. | |
:18:42. | :18:44. | ||
how can we claim that we are sh shsame values? To align | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
ourselves with a human rights abuses, I think that is very | :18:47. | :18:55. | |
dangerous. You and your wife fled from China in 1997. We are talking | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
14 years ago. Do you think you have a sense of the dynamic within | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
Chinese politics, political culture today? Maybe you are | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
underestimating the potential for change in China today? I'm a | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
optimists. I am very optimistic about China's future. I see how the | :19:21. | :19:29. | |
ordinary citizens, their courage and pursuit of freedom. When you | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
see human rights defenders, including Ai Weiwei, after so much | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
abuse and torture, therture, the choose to speak up. That is the | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
real strength of the Chinese civil society. There is no doubting the | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
carriage of people like Ai Weiwei and others, but I am more | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
interested about what is happening within the Communist Party. It is | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
interesting to me, you as a young man were convinced you could change | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
the party from within. That is why you were in Tiananmen Square in the | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
first place. You had faith that the party could change, had the last | :20:07. | :20:15. | |
that completely? We almost lost the faith when the Chinese military | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
tanks started crashing the innocent students and cost hundreds if not | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
thousands of lives. We are hopeful, we want the party to reform. We | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
want the reformers to take action to demonstrate that they care about | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
a brighter and better China. I do believe there are some still... | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
Given the emotional roller-coaster at you when time as a result of | :20:42. | :20:51. | |
what happened in 89, I wonder what you think when Premier Wen Jiabao, | :20:51. | :21:00. | |
who are seeing as reformers, have said we have to push forward with | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
political reform otherwise we would jeopardise our economic reform and | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
the goal of modernisation. Do you take that seriously or not? | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
words need to be met with actions. What did he do? What has he done? | :21:19. | :21:26. | |
What about signs of democracy within the village movement? Even | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
within the Communist Party apparatus, at a lower level, we | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
have seen this book, democracy is a good thing, he has pushed | :21:37. | :21:45. | |
democratic elections for low-level posts. What I have learned and many | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
other credible organisations, all of these independent candidates, | :21:50. | :21:59. | |
who want to participate in a civil society and a free elections... To | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
campaign peacefully, none of them was admitted. Some of them were | :22:06. | :22:15. | |
:22:16. | :22:18. | ||
kidnapped and put in a darkroom. Only recently has he resurfaced. | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
All of the independent candidates are not allowed into the process. | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
Most of them have been illegally detained. Yet, you tell me you are | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
still an optimist. You are a practising pastor, you are a man of | :22:32. | :22:40. | |
great faith, you have been invited back to China by other people of | :22:40. | :22:49. | |
faith, will you consider going? Every day I wake up, my number one | :22:49. | :22:57. | |
fear is going home. I have been missing my piece of land for 15 | :22:57. | :23:05. | |
years. On the other hand, I know the Chinese government... They are | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
not going to let me in their peacefully. Are you sure about | :23:12. | :23:22. | |
:23:22. | :23:25. | ||
that? They have let other pastors in peacefully. I am not the foreign | :23:25. | :23:35. | |
:23:35. | :23:38. | ||
athletes in the Christian community. -- elite. Some pastors told the | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
reporters that the security forces wanted them to bring me there are | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
so they could arrest me. You have three children in the US, when you | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
look at your children, do you believe there is a possibility for | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
them to live their lives as Christians in China? I do believe | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
and I do have that faith and confidence. That is one of the | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
motivations for why I'm doing what I'm doing. Not only for my | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
generation, I want my children to enjoy the freedom to sleep | :24:14. | :24:17. |