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The headlines: Huge crowds have gathered in Libya's second city | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
Benghazi for a ceremony to mark the country's liberation. The head of | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
the National Transitional Council will lead the event. | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
David Cameron is holding talks with other European leaders about the | :00:17. | :00:25. | |
debt crisis in the euro-zone. They hope to agree on a response to calm | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
the market. As a as a people's are believed to have been killed in a | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
powerful earthquake in Turkey's Easton area. | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
The 24 year-old Italian motor cyclist Marco Simoncelli has died | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
in a crash. He lost control of his bike on the second lap of the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
circuit and appeared to be hit by two other riders as he slid across | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
the track. Tributes have been paid to a couple | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
from Merseyside who were killed in a flash flood in Spain. Kenneth | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
Hall and his wife Mary were swept away when a river burst its banks. | :01:04. | :01:14. | |
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Don't forget, all of this is live on the web. | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
We are expecting David Cameron very shortly at a press conference in | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
Brussels. He has been delayed somewhat, but could appear at any | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
moment and we will go to that press conference when it happens. We are | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
now going to take you into HARDtalk because it meets Mahmoud Jibril, | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
the acting prime minister of Libya. Colonel Gaddafi is dead and the | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
challenges ahead are immense but he is walking away from power and we | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
have been asking him why. For many Libyans, the death of | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
Gaddafi represents a new beginning, but the beginning of what? A | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
genuine democracy built on the rule of law or something darker? A | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
period of infighting and civil strife? I have come to Jordan, | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
currently hosting a conference on the future of the Middle-Eastern | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
economy, to meet Mahmoud Jibril, the interim prime minister of Libya. | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
Gaddafi is dead, the challenge is ahead are immense, but he is | :02:21. | :02:31. | |
:02:31. | :02:47. | ||
Mahmoud Jibril, welcome to HARDtalk. Is the Post Gaddafi led the are | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
going to be defined by the pursuit of justice or the pursuit of | :02:52. | :03:00. | |
vengeance? Hopefully to the pursuit of justice. If there is vengeance, | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
there was also what we called transitional justice that should | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
take care of every desire of reprisal. People can't be blamed | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
after 42 years of bitterness and being under this dictatorship, you | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
know, which is unprecedented in the history of the Middle East. | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
Nevertheless, I am counting on the awareness of the Libyan people to | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
differentiate between past and future. What lessons should we draw | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
from the killing of Colonel Gaddafi? The more we look at it, | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
the more it looks like an unlawful killing. He was captured and then | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
killed. Let me stop for a moment here because there is some | :03:47. | :03:57. | |
:03:57. | :03:58. | ||
confusion over this issue. I was in constant contact on the day Gaddafi | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
was killed with ICC, and they required we should go by the book. | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
An autopsy was carried out, the forensic people were there, and | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
this is what he told the world. Because you told the world that | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Gaddafi had been killed in crossfire between your forces... | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
This is word by word what the coroner has told me when they | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
caught him in that pipeline, the sea which duped. He was hit, he was | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
injured because obviously he was in some sort of skirmish with the | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
freedom fighters because most of the people surrounding him were | :04:43. | :04:53. | |
:04:53. | :04:54. | ||
Mauritanian so. This is what I was told. I made sure and stopped on | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
the way to find out if what the coroner has said was true. We know | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
he was very much alive when he came out. He was alive. It seems that | :05:05. | :05:13. | |
some time later he was very much dead, an-hour or two. No, it was a | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
matter of 10 or 15 minutes. They were taking him to the hospital. To | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
be honest with you, personally I wish he was alive. I want to know | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
why he did this to the Libyan people. I wish I was the prosecutor | :05:28. | :05:36. | |
in his trial because this is the question in everybody's mind - why? | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
Did the Libyan people deserve what he did? So know if he was executed, | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
and the international community now has many voices asking for a full | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
investigation, if he was executed by forces loyal to your | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
administration, you would deeply regret that, would you? And no, I | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
don't like our image to be tainted, but let me be very fair in this, | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
just to be objective a little bit. Thousands and thousands of people | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
have been killed by Gaddafi. Nobody has defended the international | :06:18. | :06:28. | |
:06:28. | :06:30. | ||
community before this uprising. In one prison, more than 1000 people | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
were killed in an hour and a half and we did not hear one voice from | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
the international community. Now this one murder, a man who was | :06:41. | :06:49. | |
killed in crossfire, the coroner told me he was killed in crossfire | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
and he didn't even know whether he was killed by the Freedom fighters | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
or his security brigade. It is not a question of sympathy, it is a | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
question of holding the new look Libya to a different standard of | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
Gaddafi's Libya. There is no question Gaddafi's Libya was | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
responsible for hundreds of thousands of tortures and abuse, | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
that has been catalogued, but the standard for your government is | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
going to be very different. totally understand that but I | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
wanted to know after the fall of the regime, those Freedom fighters | :07:25. | :07:35. | |
:07:35. | :07:36. | ||
are in a state of anxiety, there are some violations in the security | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
issues. There were some violations after the fall of Tripoli but | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
nobody talked about that. It was a few reports from Amnesty | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
International, other than that nobody raised in issue. Why Gaddafi | :07:50. | :07:59. | |
in particular? The final point on this, of Human Rights Commission | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
has called for a full investigation, the White House wants a full | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
accounting. Are you prepared to conduct a full investigation and | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
allowed an international team to monitor the investigation you take? | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
Yes, that would be absolutely OK with us, but for the body when it | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
is buried, according to Islamic rule, when it is buried it is | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
buried. We have the coroner's report, I saw the body myself. I | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
can testify there were no bruises on his face or body. If somebody | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
wanted to abuse his body, that was the perfect chance in that truck. | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
They would hit him 10,000 times before they shot him. Of course the | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
body is still there in that cold storage in Misrata. It is, and I | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
think it will be buried within the next 48 hours. It is a strange | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
message that you have kept the body against Muslim practice in a | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
freezer. You have allowed Libyans to come and look at the body. Do | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
you think that was the right way to handle it? From an Islamic point of | :09:14. | :09:22. | |
view, I think you are right. Bodies should be buried as soon as | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
possible, that is in respect of the dead. But if you look at it from a | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
different perspective, for those Libyans who have been tortured for | :09:32. | :09:41. | |
42 years, they wish they could see him in a box being fairly tried | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
under international supervision. There have been denied that | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
opportunity by the will of God. I don't know who shot him, you know. | :09:50. | :10:00. | |
:10:00. | :10:01. | ||
So at least a glimpse, a look at his face, now it is only a few days | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
and he will be buried. You have Western tradition, paying respect | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
and paying a final look, some sort of cascade and everybody looks at | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
the body, so why deny this right? You would do the same thing. | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
course the Gaddafi family is not completely gone from Libya because | :10:22. | :10:30. | |
we don't know where Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi is. What is the latest | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
information you have on that and do you believe you will capture him? | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
wish to do so but there are no confirmed reports 100%. We have | :10:41. | :10:51. | |
:10:51. | :10:54. | ||
reports he is still in a city close to Misrata. We have reports he has | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
been shot in the same place they got his father and brother. We have | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
reports from the Niger government that his associate fled the scene | :11:04. | :11:14. | |
:11:14. | :11:15. | ||
with him, managed to get his way through Niger. That was confirmed | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
by the government there, that he is in the north of Niger. So hopefully | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
the first report is accurate and we get full confirmation of that. | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
Let's talk about the days ahead. The challenge is immense for all of | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
you who have power in Libya today. You yourself told Time magazine | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
just before Gaddafi was killed "we are heading towards a political | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
battle. The rules of the game are not clearly-defined because we went | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
straight from the National Physical battled to a political battle with | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
no boundaries, and this should not have happened before the creation | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
of a new state." sounds like you are very worried. I was, and I am | :12:02. | :12:11. | |
still worried to be honest with you. Now, after Gaddafi has gone, I hope | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
all those freedom fighters in the street realise that this is a time | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
to rebuild the state. This is a time that everybody should put down | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
his guns. Either go back to his old job, whether he is a doctor, an | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
engineer, an accountant, or whatever, and for the unemployed | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
there are opportunities. We have developed some structure and | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
organisations for them. We have a ministry for the Freedom fighters, | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
for the wounded, for those who are lost, and another institution to | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
accommodate them back to society, giving them some training. This is | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
some sort of getting them back smoothly. You mentioned the guns, | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
and there are tens of thousands of weapons in Libya today and many of | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
them, frankly, Irene whereabouts that are not known, very powerful | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
weapons. Others are being held by militia groups and by parts of | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
Europe will force which seems they are not taking their orders from | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
the central government, the new rulers of Libya. Is that true? | :13:22. | :13:31. | |
some extent, yes. That is extraordinarily worrying, is it | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
not? Yes, but what type of incident have you heard so far? So far. | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
far, have you heard any incident? As you know, there have been | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
limited sporadic signs of clashes. There are some violations of human | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
rights, I accept that. But in the street have you seen anybody from | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
those Freedom fighters killing people in the streets, you know? | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
But the question for you, having had months as the de facto prime | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
minister of the interim government, why have you failed to impose order, | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
your will, on all of the armed forces that were supposed to be | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
loyal to you and on the country as a whole? The pretext was always | :14:20. | :14:28. | |
that liberation is not over yet. Plus, you know, we have different | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
armoured men in Tripoli from different cities of the country, | :14:32. | :14:40. | |
and everybody is claiming that this is our capital. We have to secured | :14:40. | :14:48. | |
our capital. It is not the domain of the council of Tripoli. No, and | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
many are thinking that this is the most -- Islamist fighter would not | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
recognise your authority. Too many people at the top of the | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
transitional council had served Gaddafi, and you were not | :15:05. | :15:13. | |
representative of Libya in his view. If we are almost, the authority | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
comes from the hundreds of men loyal to him and the weapons they | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
hold. There are hundreds of men all over the place. To be honest with | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
you, if I am going to give credit to each statement made here and | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
there, statements all over the place, statements or loathe the | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
Facebook day and night, I would not work one hour. Will there come a | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
time when all the rebel groups have to be forcibly disarmed if they | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
will not hand over their weapons and go back to the sort of lives | :15:44. | :15:54. | |
:15:54. | :15:57. | ||
I do not know. We will see that in the next few days. If the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
transitional council takes a firm stand and asks them to put down | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
their arms and asks them to join the police department, or a | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
national guard, will they obey the orders? We have to see. You, it | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
seems, walking away from this. Having served as Prime Minister of | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
the National Transitional Council for months, you said days ago that | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
when liberation is officially announced, which as we speak is | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
about to happen, and it will signal the end of the conflict, you said | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
you are walking away, I quit, why? I think I have a better role to | :16:40. | :16:49. | |
carry out, to try and develop the civil society organisation in Libya, | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
to help the young people. I still believe that Libya can be a model | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
for the Arab Spring. If we help those kids who were the initiators | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
of this, develop their political platform, which reflects their own | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
dreams, not our dreams, and organise them, then we will have a | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
new leadership in their Middle-East. That is the optimistic view. The | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
pessimistic view, and these are the words of a professor at the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
University of Cairo, the problem is that the National Council, the | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
brand new leaders of Libya, do not have a single credible institution | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
in the country. Libyans have nothing that knits them together. | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
think that is a misleading statement. Has Libya had any | :17:44. | :17:51. | |
credible institution in the last 40 years? To have 80 in the last 48 -- | :17:51. | :18:01. | |
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to have it in the last eight months,, on! -- eight months, come | :18:04. | :18:14. | |
:18:14. | :18:15. | ||
on! We have had only one man. of the men who has challenge your | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
authority was a senior figure in the rebel forces and is now an | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
important player in Tripoli. He suggested he might even challenge | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
for the Prime Minister's job himself. If a man like that was to | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
challenge, do you believe he is qualified to do it? I cannot deny | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
any Libyan the chance to run for whatever post. That is a natural | :18:39. | :18:47. | |
right for everybody. My only requisite is that we do it through | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
elections, not through arms, but through words, through the ballot | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
box. All Libyans should have the right to participate in that | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
process. Do you believe there is a danger that Islamic groups and | :19:04. | :19:14. | |
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Islamist radicals could become very powerful in the brand-new Libya? | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
think Libyan society is a moderate society, by the very nature of | :19:18. | :19:28. | |
Islam. We follow moderate doctrine. I think these people are moderate | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
by their very nature. This is not to say that other streams of | :19:35. | :19:45. | |
thought are excluded. Some say they are excluded. A senior figure in | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya says that Islam is have a right to | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
act for the future of Libya through democratic processes, but they keep | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
trying to keep us away, using the same sort of policy of exclusion | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
towards the Islamists that Gaddafi used. He said that people like you, | :20:04. | :20:11. | |
people who used to working the Gaddafi regime. The cabinet that we | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
have, 16 people, including myself, four of them are from the Muslim | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
Brotherhood. I was the one who convinced the chairman of the | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
council that the Muslim Brotherhood should be included. I am not | :20:28. | :20:38. | |
:20:38. | :20:38. | ||
against any Libyan. It is not in my nature. Let me ask you about the | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
western help that Libya received. You spend a lot of time travelling, | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
London, Paris, meeting figures from the NATO alliance. NATO has | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
announced that operations will end by the end of October, and the | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
Russians are trying to get the UN Security Council to formally end | :20:59. | :21:07. | |
the mandate of Resolution 1973. Do you worry that his speed that we | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
see could be damaging for Libya, after all, we have spoken about the | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
number of weapons in your country and the potential for instability? | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
Do you want to see some sort of international protection, | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
stabilisation Force, inside Libya for months to come? Not inside | :21:26. | :21:34. | |
Libya, because no Libyan wants that. I have repeated that myself to our | :21:34. | :21:44. | |
friends in the international community. We do not need a | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
security force, but the moment we need it, we will tell you. Going | :21:48. | :21:58. | |
:21:58. | :22:02. | ||
back to the NATO issue, my argument with the Secretary General was that | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
an interim government should be formed within a period of one | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
month-three months. At least give us a period when we managed to form | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
the new government. He said that the members are leaning towards | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
that period of 10 weeks. So your message to NATO is that you're | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
being too hasty, do not assume that stability and peace has been | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
established yet? Are we still have to form a brand new government, and | :22:34. | :22:44. | |
:22:44. | :22:45. | ||
take things into our hands. So do you want NATO to actually pods, and | :22:45. | :22:55. | |
:22:55. | :22:57. | ||
not commit to ending operations by the end of October? -- pause. | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
think this is a challenge. They will be watching closely and if | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
necessary, we can take the same route. I do not think there will be | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
in need for that. Before we end, two thoughts about rebuilding Libya. | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
The first one is construction, there is a massive amount of damage, | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
how long will it take to put that right? I have made some sort of | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
speculation about the damage that this country has witnessed. The | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
development and the revival of this country, not only reviving the | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
infrastructure, but reviving the human beings, because that is | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
another type of destruction that we did not pay attention to. We're | :23:43. | :23:53. | |
:23:53. | :23:53. | ||
talking about $480 billion in a period of 20 years. For 20 years | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
with 480 billion, we're speaking about 24 billion per year. You said | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
that he wanted to be a model, you believe it can be a model across | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
the Arab world for peace and stability, but it is going to be | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
very difficult, isn't it? This is the quote from a former Tunisian | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
ambassador who briefly became the Foreign Minister. He said, for all | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
of us, it is a hard road, this road to reform in the Arab world, | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
because our battle is with then and against our selves -- against their | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
cells. I think in the next eight months, if we get through them | :24:35. | :24:45. | |
:24:45. | :24:48. | ||
safely, I think we're about to start something unprecedented. -- | :24:48. | :24:57. | |
ourselves. We have the technology, we have the | :24:57. | :25:07. | |
:25:07. | :25:09. | ||
human-resources. We have a vast terrain, so technology is in order | :25:09. | :25:19. | |
:25:19. | :25:20. | ||
to bridge is a vast terrain. Libya should be a service economy based | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
on knowledge, this was shown in a study called Libya 2025. We need to | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
make-up for the lost years. Mahmoud Jibril, thank you very much for | :25:33. | :25:43. | |
:25:43. | :26:01. | ||
being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Take Good afternoon. We have had some | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
pretty large differences in the weather across the UK this weekend. | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
Scotland, Northern Ireland, wet and windy, England and Wales, bright | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
and breezy. But there will be rain for almost all areas first thing | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
this week. Today, some sunny spells across England and Wales, and it | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
will be a mild day from mid- to late October. Pretty heavy rain | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
around Northern Ireland and Scotland, but across the board it | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
will be a breezy story. The breeze will come from the south, and that | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
will freshen things a little. If you're planning on travelling in | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
the next few hours, heading home from a weekend away, no problems in | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
terms of the weather in northern England, the Midlands, East Anglia. | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
It will be a mile down to the day. Temperatures in the high teens | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
around 5 o'clock. A little bit wetter in the south-west and Wales. | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
Rain coming in to coastal areas at times through the afternoon. But | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
most of the rain will hold off until after dark. It is a different | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
story for Northern Ireland. It is raining and it will remain wed for | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
a good few hours into the evening. The bright colours in the picture | :27:25. | :27:35. | |
:27:35. | :27:40. | ||
are the heaviest days of rain. -- heaviest areas. | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
The further east you are in the UK, the better your chances of staying | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
dry tonight. Again, it will be a mild night. Throughout Monday, | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
there will be heavy downfalls of rain. In Pembrokeshire and Cornwall, | :27:57. | :28:04. | |
we could see it at couple of inches of rain in some spots. Like | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
Northern Ireland, that could cost flooding. You will notice that the | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
rain returns to Northern Ireland on Monday as well. It will still be | :28:12. | :28:20. | |
mild and bright. In the east, temperatures around 14 degrees. | :28:20. | :28:23. |