Mahmoud Jibril - acting Prime Minister, Libya HARDtalk


Mahmoud Jibril - acting Prime Minister, Libya

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The headlines: Huge crowds have gathered in Libya's second city

:00:03.:00:09.

Benghazi for a ceremony to mark the country's liberation. The head of

:00:09.:00:12.

the National Transitional Council will lead the event.

:00:12.:00:17.

David Cameron is holding talks with other European leaders about the

:00:17.:00:25.

debt crisis in the euro-zone. They hope to agree on a response to calm

:00:25.:00:29.

the market. As a as a people's are believed to have been killed in a

:00:29.:00:34.

powerful earthquake in Turkey's Easton area.

:00:34.:00:39.

The 24 year-old Italian motor cyclist Marco Simoncelli has died

:00:39.:00:44.

in a crash. He lost control of his bike on the second lap of the

:00:44.:00:48.

circuit and appeared to be hit by two other riders as he slid across

:00:48.:00:52.

the track. Tributes have been paid to a couple

:00:52.:00:57.

from Merseyside who were killed in a flash flood in Spain. Kenneth

:00:57.:01:04.

Hall and his wife Mary were swept away when a river burst its banks.

:01:04.:01:14.
:01:14.:01:15.

Don't forget, all of this is live on the web.

:01:15.:01:19.

We are expecting David Cameron very shortly at a press conference in

:01:19.:01:24.

Brussels. He has been delayed somewhat, but could appear at any

:01:24.:01:30.

moment and we will go to that press conference when it happens. We are

:01:30.:01:36.

now going to take you into HARDtalk because it meets Mahmoud Jibril,

:01:36.:01:41.

the acting prime minister of Libya. Colonel Gaddafi is dead and the

:01:41.:01:45.

challenges ahead are immense but he is walking away from power and we

:01:45.:01:52.

have been asking him why. For many Libyans, the death of

:01:52.:01:57.

Gaddafi represents a new beginning, but the beginning of what? A

:01:57.:02:02.

genuine democracy built on the rule of law or something darker? A

:02:02.:02:08.

period of infighting and civil strife? I have come to Jordan,

:02:08.:02:11.

currently hosting a conference on the future of the Middle-Eastern

:02:11.:02:16.

economy, to meet Mahmoud Jibril, the interim prime minister of Libya.

:02:16.:02:21.

Gaddafi is dead, the challenge is ahead are immense, but he is

:02:21.:02:31.
:02:31.:02:47.

Mahmoud Jibril, welcome to HARDtalk. Is the Post Gaddafi led the are

:02:47.:02:52.

going to be defined by the pursuit of justice or the pursuit of

:02:52.:03:00.

vengeance? Hopefully to the pursuit of justice. If there is vengeance,

:03:00.:03:04.

there was also what we called transitional justice that should

:03:04.:03:11.

take care of every desire of reprisal. People can't be blamed

:03:11.:03:16.

after 42 years of bitterness and being under this dictatorship, you

:03:16.:03:21.

know, which is unprecedented in the history of the Middle East.

:03:21.:03:26.

Nevertheless, I am counting on the awareness of the Libyan people to

:03:26.:03:31.

differentiate between past and future. What lessons should we draw

:03:31.:03:36.

from the killing of Colonel Gaddafi? The more we look at it,

:03:36.:03:40.

the more it looks like an unlawful killing. He was captured and then

:03:40.:03:47.

killed. Let me stop for a moment here because there is some

:03:47.:03:57.
:03:57.:03:58.

confusion over this issue. I was in constant contact on the day Gaddafi

:03:58.:04:04.

was killed with ICC, and they required we should go by the book.

:04:04.:04:10.

An autopsy was carried out, the forensic people were there, and

:04:10.:04:17.

this is what he told the world. Because you told the world that

:04:17.:04:22.

Gaddafi had been killed in crossfire between your forces...

:04:22.:04:27.

This is word by word what the coroner has told me when they

:04:27.:04:32.

caught him in that pipeline, the sea which duped. He was hit, he was

:04:32.:04:37.

injured because obviously he was in some sort of skirmish with the

:04:37.:04:43.

freedom fighters because most of the people surrounding him were

:04:43.:04:53.
:04:53.:04:54.

Mauritanian so. This is what I was told. I made sure and stopped on

:04:54.:04:59.

the way to find out if what the coroner has said was true. We know

:04:59.:05:05.

he was very much alive when he came out. He was alive. It seems that

:05:05.:05:13.

some time later he was very much dead, an-hour or two. No, it was a

:05:13.:05:17.

matter of 10 or 15 minutes. They were taking him to the hospital. To

:05:18.:05:23.

be honest with you, personally I wish he was alive. I want to know

:05:23.:05:28.

why he did this to the Libyan people. I wish I was the prosecutor

:05:28.:05:36.

in his trial because this is the question in everybody's mind - why?

:05:36.:05:43.

Did the Libyan people deserve what he did? So know if he was executed,

:05:43.:05:48.

and the international community now has many voices asking for a full

:05:48.:05:53.

investigation, if he was executed by forces loyal to your

:05:53.:05:58.

administration, you would deeply regret that, would you? And no, I

:05:58.:06:04.

don't like our image to be tainted, but let me be very fair in this,

:06:04.:06:11.

just to be objective a little bit. Thousands and thousands of people

:06:11.:06:18.

have been killed by Gaddafi. Nobody has defended the international

:06:18.:06:28.
:06:28.:06:30.

community before this uprising. In one prison, more than 1000 people

:06:30.:06:36.

were killed in an hour and a half and we did not hear one voice from

:06:36.:06:41.

the international community. Now this one murder, a man who was

:06:41.:06:49.

killed in crossfire, the coroner told me he was killed in crossfire

:06:49.:06:54.

and he didn't even know whether he was killed by the Freedom fighters

:06:54.:07:00.

or his security brigade. It is not a question of sympathy, it is a

:07:00.:07:03.

question of holding the new look Libya to a different standard of

:07:03.:07:09.

Gaddafi's Libya. There is no question Gaddafi's Libya was

:07:09.:07:12.

responsible for hundreds of thousands of tortures and abuse,

:07:12.:07:16.

that has been catalogued, but the standard for your government is

:07:16.:07:20.

going to be very different. totally understand that but I

:07:20.:07:25.

wanted to know after the fall of the regime, those Freedom fighters

:07:25.:07:35.
:07:35.:07:36.

are in a state of anxiety, there are some violations in the security

:07:36.:07:40.

issues. There were some violations after the fall of Tripoli but

:07:40.:07:45.

nobody talked about that. It was a few reports from Amnesty

:07:45.:07:50.

International, other than that nobody raised in issue. Why Gaddafi

:07:50.:07:59.

in particular? The final point on this, of Human Rights Commission

:07:59.:08:05.

has called for a full investigation, the White House wants a full

:08:05.:08:11.

accounting. Are you prepared to conduct a full investigation and

:08:11.:08:14.

allowed an international team to monitor the investigation you take?

:08:14.:08:20.

Yes, that would be absolutely OK with us, but for the body when it

:08:20.:08:24.

is buried, according to Islamic rule, when it is buried it is

:08:24.:08:29.

buried. We have the coroner's report, I saw the body myself. I

:08:29.:08:35.

can testify there were no bruises on his face or body. If somebody

:08:35.:08:39.

wanted to abuse his body, that was the perfect chance in that truck.

:08:39.:08:46.

They would hit him 10,000 times before they shot him. Of course the

:08:46.:08:52.

body is still there in that cold storage in Misrata. It is, and I

:08:52.:08:57.

think it will be buried within the next 48 hours. It is a strange

:08:57.:09:02.

message that you have kept the body against Muslim practice in a

:09:02.:09:08.

freezer. You have allowed Libyans to come and look at the body. Do

:09:08.:09:14.

you think that was the right way to handle it? From an Islamic point of

:09:14.:09:22.

view, I think you are right. Bodies should be buried as soon as

:09:22.:09:28.

possible, that is in respect of the dead. But if you look at it from a

:09:28.:09:32.

different perspective, for those Libyans who have been tortured for

:09:32.:09:41.

42 years, they wish they could see him in a box being fairly tried

:09:41.:09:45.

under international supervision. There have been denied that

:09:45.:09:50.

opportunity by the will of God. I don't know who shot him, you know.

:09:50.:10:00.
:10:00.:10:01.

So at least a glimpse, a look at his face, now it is only a few days

:10:01.:10:06.

and he will be buried. You have Western tradition, paying respect

:10:06.:10:12.

and paying a final look, some sort of cascade and everybody looks at

:10:12.:10:19.

the body, so why deny this right? You would do the same thing.

:10:19.:10:22.

course the Gaddafi family is not completely gone from Libya because

:10:22.:10:30.

we don't know where Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi is. What is the latest

:10:30.:10:34.

information you have on that and do you believe you will capture him?

:10:34.:10:41.

wish to do so but there are no confirmed reports 100%. We have

:10:41.:10:51.
:10:51.:10:54.

reports he is still in a city close to Misrata. We have reports he has

:10:55.:11:00.

been shot in the same place they got his father and brother. We have

:11:00.:11:04.

reports from the Niger government that his associate fled the scene

:11:04.:11:14.
:11:14.:11:15.

with him, managed to get his way through Niger. That was confirmed

:11:15.:11:21.

by the government there, that he is in the north of Niger. So hopefully

:11:21.:11:26.

the first report is accurate and we get full confirmation of that.

:11:27.:11:31.

Let's talk about the days ahead. The challenge is immense for all of

:11:31.:11:37.

you who have power in Libya today. You yourself told Time magazine

:11:37.:11:41.

just before Gaddafi was killed "we are heading towards a political

:11:41.:11:47.

battle. The rules of the game are not clearly-defined because we went

:11:47.:11:50.

straight from the National Physical battled to a political battle with

:11:50.:11:55.

no boundaries, and this should not have happened before the creation

:11:55.:12:02.

of a new state." sounds like you are very worried. I was, and I am

:12:02.:12:11.

still worried to be honest with you. Now, after Gaddafi has gone, I hope

:12:11.:12:14.

all those freedom fighters in the street realise that this is a time

:12:14.:12:19.

to rebuild the state. This is a time that everybody should put down

:12:19.:12:26.

his guns. Either go back to his old job, whether he is a doctor, an

:12:26.:12:31.

engineer, an accountant, or whatever, and for the unemployed

:12:32.:12:35.

there are opportunities. We have developed some structure and

:12:35.:12:41.

organisations for them. We have a ministry for the Freedom fighters,

:12:41.:12:45.

for the wounded, for those who are lost, and another institution to

:12:45.:12:51.

accommodate them back to society, giving them some training. This is

:12:51.:12:57.

some sort of getting them back smoothly. You mentioned the guns,

:12:57.:13:02.

and there are tens of thousands of weapons in Libya today and many of

:13:02.:13:07.

them, frankly, Irene whereabouts that are not known, very powerful

:13:07.:13:12.

weapons. Others are being held by militia groups and by parts of

:13:12.:13:17.

Europe will force which seems they are not taking their orders from

:13:17.:13:22.

the central government, the new rulers of Libya. Is that true?

:13:22.:13:31.

some extent, yes. That is extraordinarily worrying, is it

:13:31.:13:38.

not? Yes, but what type of incident have you heard so far? So far.

:13:38.:13:43.

far, have you heard any incident? As you know, there have been

:13:43.:13:48.

limited sporadic signs of clashes. There are some violations of human

:13:48.:13:54.

rights, I accept that. But in the street have you seen anybody from

:13:54.:13:57.

those Freedom fighters killing people in the streets, you know?

:13:57.:14:03.

But the question for you, having had months as the de facto prime

:14:03.:14:08.

minister of the interim government, why have you failed to impose order,

:14:08.:14:12.

your will, on all of the armed forces that were supposed to be

:14:12.:14:20.

loyal to you and on the country as a whole? The pretext was always

:14:20.:14:28.

that liberation is not over yet. Plus, you know, we have different

:14:28.:14:32.

armoured men in Tripoli from different cities of the country,

:14:32.:14:40.

and everybody is claiming that this is our capital. We have to secured

:14:40.:14:48.

our capital. It is not the domain of the council of Tripoli. No, and

:14:48.:14:57.

many are thinking that this is the most -- Islamist fighter would not

:14:57.:15:01.

recognise your authority. Too many people at the top of the

:15:02.:15:05.

transitional council had served Gaddafi, and you were not

:15:05.:15:13.

representative of Libya in his view. If we are almost, the authority

:15:13.:15:16.

comes from the hundreds of men loyal to him and the weapons they

:15:16.:15:22.

hold. There are hundreds of men all over the place. To be honest with

:15:22.:15:26.

you, if I am going to give credit to each statement made here and

:15:26.:15:31.

there, statements all over the place, statements or loathe the

:15:31.:15:36.

Facebook day and night, I would not work one hour. Will there come a

:15:36.:15:40.

time when all the rebel groups have to be forcibly disarmed if they

:15:40.:15:44.

will not hand over their weapons and go back to the sort of lives

:15:44.:15:54.
:15:54.:15:57.

I do not know. We will see that in the next few days. If the

:15:57.:16:00.

transitional council takes a firm stand and asks them to put down

:16:00.:16:05.

their arms and asks them to join the police department, or a

:16:05.:16:11.

national guard, will they obey the orders? We have to see. You, it

:16:11.:16:18.

seems, walking away from this. Having served as Prime Minister of

:16:18.:16:21.

the National Transitional Council for months, you said days ago that

:16:22.:16:25.

when liberation is officially announced, which as we speak is

:16:25.:16:31.

about to happen, and it will signal the end of the conflict, you said

:16:31.:16:39.

you are walking away, I quit, why? I think I have a better role to

:16:40.:16:49.

carry out, to try and develop the civil society organisation in Libya,

:16:49.:16:55.

to help the young people. I still believe that Libya can be a model

:16:56.:17:00.

for the Arab Spring. If we help those kids who were the initiators

:17:00.:17:05.

of this, develop their political platform, which reflects their own

:17:05.:17:12.

dreams, not our dreams, and organise them, then we will have a

:17:12.:17:19.

new leadership in their Middle-East. That is the optimistic view. The

:17:19.:17:23.

pessimistic view, and these are the words of a professor at the

:17:23.:17:27.

University of Cairo, the problem is that the National Council, the

:17:27.:17:32.

brand new leaders of Libya, do not have a single credible institution

:17:32.:17:40.

in the country. Libyans have nothing that knits them together.

:17:40.:17:44.

think that is a misleading statement. Has Libya had any

:17:44.:17:51.

credible institution in the last 40 years? To have 80 in the last 48 --

:17:51.:18:01.
:18:01.:18:04.

to have it in the last eight months,, on! -- eight months, come

:18:04.:18:14.
:18:14.:18:15.

on! We have had only one man. of the men who has challenge your

:18:15.:18:19.

authority was a senior figure in the rebel forces and is now an

:18:19.:18:25.

important player in Tripoli. He suggested he might even challenge

:18:25.:18:29.

for the Prime Minister's job himself. If a man like that was to

:18:29.:18:34.

challenge, do you believe he is qualified to do it? I cannot deny

:18:34.:18:39.

any Libyan the chance to run for whatever post. That is a natural

:18:39.:18:47.

right for everybody. My only requisite is that we do it through

:18:47.:18:51.

elections, not through arms, but through words, through the ballot

:18:51.:18:58.

box. All Libyans should have the right to participate in that

:18:58.:19:04.

process. Do you believe there is a danger that Islamic groups and

:19:04.:19:14.
:19:14.:19:14.

Islamist radicals could become very powerful in the brand-new Libya?

:19:14.:19:18.

think Libyan society is a moderate society, by the very nature of

:19:18.:19:28.

Islam. We follow moderate doctrine. I think these people are moderate

:19:28.:19:35.

by their very nature. This is not to say that other streams of

:19:35.:19:45.

thought are excluded. Some say they are excluded. A senior figure in

:19:45.:19:48.

the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya says that Islam is have a right to

:19:48.:19:53.

act for the future of Libya through democratic processes, but they keep

:19:53.:19:58.

trying to keep us away, using the same sort of policy of exclusion

:19:58.:20:04.

towards the Islamists that Gaddafi used. He said that people like you,

:20:04.:20:11.

people who used to working the Gaddafi regime. The cabinet that we

:20:11.:20:16.

have, 16 people, including myself, four of them are from the Muslim

:20:16.:20:22.

Brotherhood. I was the one who convinced the chairman of the

:20:22.:20:28.

council that the Muslim Brotherhood should be included. I am not

:20:28.:20:38.
:20:38.:20:38.

against any Libyan. It is not in my nature. Let me ask you about the

:20:38.:20:43.

western help that Libya received. You spend a lot of time travelling,

:20:43.:20:49.

London, Paris, meeting figures from the NATO alliance. NATO has

:20:49.:20:53.

announced that operations will end by the end of October, and the

:20:54.:20:59.

Russians are trying to get the UN Security Council to formally end

:20:59.:21:07.

the mandate of Resolution 1973. Do you worry that his speed that we

:21:07.:21:12.

see could be damaging for Libya, after all, we have spoken about the

:21:12.:21:17.

number of weapons in your country and the potential for instability?

:21:17.:21:21.

Do you want to see some sort of international protection,

:21:21.:21:26.

stabilisation Force, inside Libya for months to come? Not inside

:21:26.:21:34.

Libya, because no Libyan wants that. I have repeated that myself to our

:21:34.:21:44.

friends in the international community. We do not need a

:21:44.:21:48.

security force, but the moment we need it, we will tell you. Going

:21:48.:21:58.
:21:58.:22:02.

back to the NATO issue, my argument with the Secretary General was that

:22:02.:22:06.

an interim government should be formed within a period of one

:22:06.:22:13.

month-three months. At least give us a period when we managed to form

:22:13.:22:18.

the new government. He said that the members are leaning towards

:22:18.:22:25.

that period of 10 weeks. So your message to NATO is that you're

:22:25.:22:29.

being too hasty, do not assume that stability and peace has been

:22:29.:22:34.

established yet? Are we still have to form a brand new government, and

:22:34.:22:44.
:22:44.:22:45.

take things into our hands. So do you want NATO to actually pods, and

:22:45.:22:55.
:22:55.:22:57.

not commit to ending operations by the end of October? -- pause.

:22:58.:23:03.

think this is a challenge. They will be watching closely and if

:23:03.:23:07.

necessary, we can take the same route. I do not think there will be

:23:07.:23:14.

in need for that. Before we end, two thoughts about rebuilding Libya.

:23:14.:23:18.

The first one is construction, there is a massive amount of damage,

:23:18.:23:24.

how long will it take to put that right? I have made some sort of

:23:24.:23:29.

speculation about the damage that this country has witnessed. The

:23:29.:23:34.

development and the revival of this country, not only reviving the

:23:34.:23:38.

infrastructure, but reviving the human beings, because that is

:23:38.:23:43.

another type of destruction that we did not pay attention to. We're

:23:43.:23:53.
:23:53.:23:53.

talking about $480 billion in a period of 20 years. For 20 years

:23:53.:23:59.

with 480 billion, we're speaking about 24 billion per year. You said

:23:59.:24:03.

that he wanted to be a model, you believe it can be a model across

:24:04.:24:08.

the Arab world for peace and stability, but it is going to be

:24:08.:24:13.

very difficult, isn't it? This is the quote from a former Tunisian

:24:13.:24:19.

ambassador who briefly became the Foreign Minister. He said, for all

:24:19.:24:25.

of us, it is a hard road, this road to reform in the Arab world,

:24:25.:24:29.

because our battle is with then and against our selves -- against their

:24:29.:24:35.

cells. I think in the next eight months, if we get through them

:24:35.:24:45.
:24:45.:24:48.

safely, I think we're about to start something unprecedented. --

:24:48.:24:57.

ourselves. We have the technology, we have the

:24:57.:25:07.
:25:07.:25:09.

human-resources. We have a vast terrain, so technology is in order

:25:09.:25:19.
:25:19.:25:20.

to bridge is a vast terrain. Libya should be a service economy based

:25:20.:25:27.

on knowledge, this was shown in a study called Libya 2025. We need to

:25:27.:25:33.

make-up for the lost years. Mahmoud Jibril, thank you very much for

:25:33.:25:43.
:25:43.:26:01.

being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Take Good afternoon. We have had some

:26:01.:26:05.

pretty large differences in the weather across the UK this weekend.

:26:05.:26:11.

Scotland, Northern Ireland, wet and windy, England and Wales, bright

:26:11.:26:16.

and breezy. But there will be rain for almost all areas first thing

:26:16.:26:22.

this week. Today, some sunny spells across England and Wales, and it

:26:22.:26:30.

will be a mild day from mid- to late October. Pretty heavy rain

:26:30.:26:33.

around Northern Ireland and Scotland, but across the board it

:26:33.:26:40.

will be a breezy story. The breeze will come from the south, and that

:26:40.:26:45.

will freshen things a little. If you're planning on travelling in

:26:45.:26:49.

the next few hours, heading home from a weekend away, no problems in

:26:49.:26:54.

terms of the weather in northern England, the Midlands, East Anglia.

:26:54.:26:59.

It will be a mile down to the day. Temperatures in the high teens

:26:59.:27:05.

around 5 o'clock. A little bit wetter in the south-west and Wales.

:27:05.:27:10.

Rain coming in to coastal areas at times through the afternoon. But

:27:10.:27:15.

most of the rain will hold off until after dark. It is a different

:27:15.:27:19.

story for Northern Ireland. It is raining and it will remain wed for

:27:19.:27:25.

a good few hours into the evening. The bright colours in the picture

:27:25.:27:35.
:27:35.:27:40.

are the heaviest days of rain. -- heaviest areas.

:27:40.:27:45.

The further east you are in the UK, the better your chances of staying

:27:45.:27:51.

dry tonight. Again, it will be a mild night. Throughout Monday,

:27:51.:27:57.

there will be heavy downfalls of rain. In Pembrokeshire and Cornwall,

:27:57.:28:04.

we could see it at couple of inches of rain in some spots. Like

:28:04.:28:07.

Northern Ireland, that could cost flooding. You will notice that the

:28:07.:28:12.

rain returns to Northern Ireland on Monday as well. It will still be

:28:12.:28:20.

mild and bright. In the east, temperatures around 14 degrees.

:28:20.:28:23.

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