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have an overall majority. Now on BBC News it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
The man you're about to see has the face and the will of a survivor. | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
Robert King has spent much of his life in prison, 29-years in | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
solitary confinement, in one of the toughest jails in the United States. | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
He'd been a petty criminal, who was then, he says, framed for a series | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
of much bigger crimes partly because he joined the black | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
nationalist movement, the Black Panthers. Now he's out of jail, | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
he's campaigning for the release of two other elderly black prisoners, | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
both of whom have spent more that 30 years in solitary. And the US, | :00:44. | :00:54. | |
:00:54. | :01:11. | ||
says Robert King, dares to call itself, The Land of the Free. | :01:11. | :01:21. | |
:01:21. | :01:25. | ||
Robert Shing, welcome to HARDtalk. He has said you were born in do -- | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
in the USA, you're black and poor, it is little wonder you ended up in | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
prison. Thank you, good to be sure. That statement came from the known | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
fact that I was born in America. I was born black. I was born poor, I | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
was a post war world two baby. Racism, discrimination, whatever | :01:50. | :02:00. | |
:02:00. | :02:06. | ||
you wants to refer to come up all of this existed. If you look past | :02:06. | :02:14. | |
the age of 17-20, you ended up in prison of the graveyard. This is | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
the way it was. You are saying there was no escape from crime? | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
:02:30. | :02:32. | ||
There was no escape from poverty, which I believe is linked to crime. | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
People who come into a society, the first sign against them is the | :02:38. | :02:47. | |
colour of their skin, this is a pathway of poverty, a pathway of | :02:47. | :02:57. | |
:02:57. | :02:58. | ||
racism and discrimination. I think this leads to a life of crime. | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
teenager you had become a petty criminal, but things went severely | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
downhill for you in 1971 at the age of 19. You were convicted of an | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
armed robbery and sentenced to 35 years. You say, you were framed. | :03:16. | :03:26. | |
:03:26. | :03:32. | ||
Correct. I was. Having had a previous record, I had robbery some | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
five years earlier. 6-7 years earlier. I was automatically a | :03:38. | :03:48. | |
:03:48. | :03:50. | ||
suspect. If you had any kind of previous record in our community, | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
if a crime was committed, you were a prime suspect. There were many | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
people who were suspects. Once a crime is committed, and unsolved | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
crime, they would look at the record of anyone who has been | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
convicted. This was not the least, it was the testimony of another | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
black man that led to the sentence of 35 years. This individual was | :04:19. | :04:28. | |
arrested on a crime. He said the person who was with him, a dark- | :04:28. | :04:37. | |
skinned male and so forth, the victim stated this, when the police | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
:04:47. | :04:52. | ||
showed him my mug, he knew... We did not know each other. He stated | :04:53. | :05:02. | |
:05:03. | :05:04. | ||
in open court that he was beaten. They told him that I was with him. | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
You were sent to this prison that was called and dollar, in Louisiana. | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
-- Angola. It had a reputation for being the toughest prison in the | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
state in a time when prison conditions were quite bad. It was | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
pretty tough. At the time we are speaking of, there were periods it | :05:30. | :05:40. | |
:05:40. | :05:42. | ||
was tougher, it was still tough in 1970. You had it been made guards | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
who were the backbone of the prison. They had shotguns. If an individual | :05:50. | :05:59. | |
try to escape, they would catch that individual. People worked for | :05:59. | :06:07. | |
two sense an hour. Sugar-cane was the main crop at that time. Some | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
people worked for 17 hours a day. Some of the guards are dissipated | :06:13. | :06:23. | |
:06:23. | :06:24. | ||
in raping young get inmates with the permission of the authorities. | :06:24. | :06:34. | |
:06:34. | :06:38. | ||
-- the -- participated. Racism was in the present, but brutality was a | :06:38. | :06:48. | |
:06:48. | :06:50. | ||
threat. -- prison. People were brutalised big time. You say the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
administration was racist, but a lot of this violence was black men | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
against black men, wasn't it? may have been black men against a | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
black man but it was perpetrated by a white administration. The inmate | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
guards consisted of white and black. The majority of the inmates were | :07:14. | :07:22. | |
black. You also had white inmates. The entire administration was white. | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
You had no African-American who was part of the administration at that | :07:26. | :07:36. | |
:07:36. | :07:41. | ||
time. You escaped and recaptured come much you were involved in | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
riots, this added to an already huge sentence. It is when you came | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
back to the prison in 1971, you had a new mood of defiance about you, | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
this is because he had experienced the Black Panthers, is that | :07:56. | :08:06. | |
:08:06. | :08:07. | ||
correct? Yes. I was being held in a detention centre even though I had | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
been given a 35-year sentence. I was waiting for my direct appeal to | :08:14. | :08:24. | |
:08:24. | :08:26. | ||
become exhausted. After that I received eight more years and I was | :08:26. | :08:36. | |
:08:36. | :08:41. | ||
sent to an -- Angola. That is when you joined the Black Panthers. | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
had become politicised, I began to see that I had no rights, I was a | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
slave. I was being treated like a slave. The only choice I had was to | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
rebel. The Black Panthers were not about the assertiveness that Martin | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
Luther King talked about, non violence, they were about violence | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
if it was deemed necessary. Black Panthers started out for | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
self-defence. The media is the one who turned the movement into one | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
about anger and black men. One of the leaders of the Black Panthers | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
was convicted for the murder of a Californian police, one of the | :09:31. | :09:38. | |
leaders at a Black Panther meeting, he is the only true leader, how | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
many white folks have you kill today? None of the members that I | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
knew were there. Newton was convicted, but he was acquitted and | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
released from prison. There was a question about whether he had | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
killed or not. Even Newton at the time he was shocked. The record | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
shows they tried to kill him while he was in the hospital. The Black | :10:09. | :10:18. | |
:10:19. | :10:19. | ||
Panthers were seen at the time as a threat. The perception was, they | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
were prepared to fight against racist police and Cooper Clarke's | :10:24. | :10:34. | |
:10:34. | :10:35. | ||
plan. They were seen as a threat. This was a time in Vietnam, people | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
were protesting against the Vietnam War. Yes, the perception was that | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
they were violent. This was systemic. They demonised. They | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
demonised the Black Panthers. joined the Black Panthers. When you | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
were back in prison you met up with two other people who were involved | :10:59. | :11:09. | |
:11:09. | :11:16. | ||
in the Black Panthers, afraid and Hamann -- Alfred and Herman who | :11:16. | :11:25. | |
were convicted of the murder of a prison guard. How far do you | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
believe that you and they were targeted because your members? | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
was targeted because I was a member, I have reason to believe they were | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
targeted. What is the evidence? was placed under investigation for | :11:42. | :11:52. | |
:11:52. | :11:53. | ||
it. I was 150 miles away from the prison and I was charged... I had | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
never met the man in my life. There was no evidence apart from the paid | :12:02. | :12:12. | |
:12:12. | :12:12. | ||
testimony of a snitch and informant. So you and these other two who | :12:12. | :12:20. | |
became known as the three, you were seen as troublemakers, you were | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
placed in solitary confinement in closed cell restricted. After all | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
the violence you have talked about, the threat, the fear, the rake, the | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
slave labour you have called it in the rest of the prison, you might | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
think that solitary confinement was a respite, but the way you have | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
talked about it, it sounds as if it was an even worse punishment? | :12:51. | :13:00. | |
it really was not a respite. Solitary confinement became an | :13:00. | :13:10. | |
:13:10. | :13:13. | ||
issue later on. We were all imprisoned unjustly. We were | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
fighting for freedom from the prison. Give me a sense of how | :13:17. | :13:26. | |
tough it is to be locked up for 23 hours a day for decades at a time? | :13:26. | :13:34. | |
At the time, like at pointed out, it is no easy task to be in prison. | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
Prison is horrible. To be locked up 23 hours a day, is nothing someone | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
would dream about. I thought it was horrible. It felt horrible. I was | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
able to weather the storm because I had a different mindset. I had | :13:52. | :14:02. | |
:14:02. | :14:03. | ||
become bleakly aware an eyesore America as one big prison. -- | :14:03. | :14:10. | |
politically aware and I saw America. I had a different mindset. With | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
this different mindset I was able to weather the storm. I did not see | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
myself as a prisoner, as a perpetrator, but a victim. You say | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
you're a victim, even on solitary confinement, he were convicted for | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
the murder of another inmate, again, you say your friend? -- you were | :14:33. | :14:43. | |
:14:43. | :14:46. | ||
framed. Yes, the court agreed with In the end you had to agree to the | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
plea bargain of conspiracy to commit murder. And anyone could | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
have plead guilty to wait if they wanted to charge anyone. They could | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
have charged 11 other people with conspiracy. But there are only | :14:58. | :15:08. | |
:15:08. | :15:10. | ||
charged me. Be charged the man who committed to the crime... It was an | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
inmate who later decided that he went home as a result online on me. | :15:16. | :15:24. | |
He decides tell the truth. He told the trees. -- trip. Were you guilty | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
of conspiracy? Nem mac. I was there and I knew another inmate was | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
killed. I knew he was killed in self-defence. When I did not write | :15:38. | :15:47. | |
on him. That was conspiracy. left prison into the other end one | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
after a 29 years in solitary. With the stain still on your reputation | :15:53. | :16:03. | |
:16:03. | :16:12. | ||
DVD was a price worth paying? -- the big... We had become known as | :16:12. | :16:20. | |
the Angola 3. Most of our supporters felt that they could | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
have charged anybody with conspiracy. They chose to charge me | :16:25. | :16:35. | |
:16:35. | :16:40. | ||
which validated that I was targeted. Since you release you have been | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
campaigning for the release of the other two members of the Angola 3, | :16:44. | :16:51. | |
Herman Wallace and Albert Woodfox. They spend more than 30 years in | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
solitary confinement. It is close to 40. They are back in solitary | :16:58. | :17:06. | |
confinement in Louisiana. The warden of Angola Prison, N 2008, | :17:06. | :17:14. | |
said of Albert Woodfox he still has a sense of violence. He is still | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
practising the movement of black panther. I do not want him to walk | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
around a prison because he would organise the young inmates. Do you | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
recognise that that man is still much of a third? I recognise that | :17:31. | :17:40. | |
he stuck to his trend. They are being kept in solitary confinement | :17:40. | :17:50. | |
:17:50. | :17:53. | ||
because of their political beliefs. Not because there are any proof. | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
Another man said Albert Woodfox said he was a mild man in another - | :17:57. | :18:07. | |
:18:07. | :18:09. | ||
- from another source. What has changed for you in the past 50 | :18:09. | :18:19. | |
:18:19. | :18:19. | ||
years? Most of which you spend in prison. Prison numbers in the EU -- | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
in the US seems to be going up. One in ten black men between the ages | :18:24. | :18:34. | |
:18:34. | :18:35. | ||
of 25 and 29 end up in prison. How are you trying to change that? What | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
are you trying to do in order to reverse that trend? I want people | :18:42. | :18:51. | |
to revisit the concept of a prison. That figure rises because | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
systemically, the US is still a racer society. There is | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
discrimination. -- racist society. We have to take the system -- look | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
at the system of legality. We have to see prison as a new form of | :19:08. | :19:17. | |
:19:18. | :19:19. | ||
slavery. People equate legality and morality as equals. It is not so. | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
There is social responsibility of course but it is -- there is | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
individual responsibility as well. People do not have to be sucked | :19:30. | :19:40. | |
into a life of crime. They do not have to. Herman and Abba did not | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
sucked into a life of crime. The fact they were sucked into it is | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
not the reason they were in prison. They were in prison because they | :19:48. | :19:58. | |
became members of the Black Panther Party. They would not conform to a | :19:58. | :20:07. | |
prison as it was at that time. problem with politics in many | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
countries including the US is that it is a vote loser to start saying | :20:11. | :20:21. | |
:20:21. | :20:31. | ||
we need to lock up your people. -- less people. A previous politician | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
said I came here to make a better America, there are more people in | :20:38. | :20:48. | |
:20:48. | :20:49. | ||
prison cells and when I took offers. -- I took office. They think it | :20:49. | :20:59. | |
:20:59. | :20:59. | ||
will be a better society. Most people do not believe about either. | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
We have to look at the system itself. If politics motivate | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
actions and for people to do it immoral things, we have to look at | :21:09. | :21:17. | |
the politics. The prison inmates to be changed. That is my focus. That | :21:17. | :21:27. | |
:21:27. | :21:27. | ||
is what I hope to achieve. We can look at prison by much different | :21:27. | :21:35. | |
manner that can reflect... If they have to be a prison, it has to be | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
sprinkled with morality. Politics has placed a bigger -- played a | :21:41. | :21:50. | |
bigger party. It has been ten years since she came out of prison. -- | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
that you came out. What has been the biggest prat -- surprise for | :21:54. | :22:04. | |
:22:04. | :22:10. | ||
you? What has been the thing that grips you most? What to grips me | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
most is the great leap in technology. I have noticed how far | :22:15. | :22:25. | |
:22:25. | :22:26. | ||
we have come. I am in all of that. Having caught up to it? I think I | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
have. But unfortunately, I do not think I have called up to the | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
system. That is an external thing. Often people who come out of prison | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
after long periods in jail, especially if they had been victims | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
of miscarriages of justice, they say it is incredibly difficult to | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
lead a normal life and to fill normal and connected to other | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
people. How do you cope? I do not feel that way. I am sorry if I go | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
against the normal. We have something to do with how we feel. I | :23:06. | :23:14. | |
was in prison. But I did not allow prison to get in me. With this | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
mindset, I was able to weather the storm. You do not feel bitter now? | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
I do not feel bitter to the extent... I would use the term of | :23:28. | :23:36. |