Yosri Fouda - Egyptian journalist HARDtalk

Now it is time bought HARDtalk. HARDtalk is in Egypt. My guess is

Yosri Fouda, the television journalist who has taken his own

Yosri Fouda, welcome to HARDtalk. I wanted begin by taking you back to

those extraordinary days of January and February this year, and the

revolution. Did you feel liberated as a journalist as well as an

Egyptian citizen? Yes, on both levels. We were full of tremendous

hope. You live to minute-by-minute. Everybody believed that Egyptians

are servile and they were not revolt, for the longest time. To

see it for yourself, and to be part of it, was a moment of great pride.

This idea that it was going to be a watershed moment for the media, I

want to focus on what you decided to do after those days of

revolution. You were very keen to establish a new form of journalism,

and they sit on rigorous and challenging interviews, not so

dissimilar to what we do on HARDtalk. A new developed a

programme, The Final Word. Did you really believe that the Egypt that

had come from this revolution, was in Egypt that was ready for no-

holds-barred, rigorous, challenging questioning of the people at the

very top, those in power? I will give you one example, the first

interview that idea with two journalists. It was with the

military council that was in charge of the country after the revolution.

There were very receptive to the pre- discussion. They looked edgy

when it came to certain points. At the time, there were so negative --

some negative stories. There were claims of torture and the rest of

it. We now know that these were true. Unfortunately yes. We have a

lot of evidence now. As a journalist, I was there to see it

for myself. It was compelling. was the point. You were having

preliminary discussions with generals, with men in uniform, you

were trying to persuade them to open up, too challenging

questioning, but at the very same time, you were living in a country

that was still under the state of emergency. People who say the wrong

thing can end up in prison. There was no way that you could do the

job that you wanted to. To a certain extent, that is true, but

also I believe that every single party in this country has been

going through a new process, including the army. I realised this

from the beginning. The army by nature is very conservative. They

are in charge of a country that is exploding with hope. What can they

do? You try to understand their position. They try as much as they

can to understand why it we are insistent to discuss this point all

that point, so I said to them, I am going to ask about everything. They

looked at each other. This is just one example. I do not think that I

can do the interview. In the end, I'm going to ask the question. You

can say, no comment. But in itself that is an answer. That was then.

But in the more immediate past, and only a few hundred metres from here,

we have had a truly terrible event. Many people call it the Maspiro

massacre. More than two dozen Coptic Christians were killed. It

seems, by the security forces. All of the video evidence to suggest

that is the case. As a result of that, there seems to be a new

crackdown on freedom of expression. How did that manifest itself for

you? It has been coming for a few months. To cut a long story short,

sometimes in direct pressure is much worse then direct pressure.

What you mean by indirect? You have two paradigms in terms of media

ownership in Egypt. Directly, there is a state-controlled paradigm. It

is easy for whoever happens to be empowered to control it. And the

paradigm that was started in Egypt a few years ago, privately owned

media. A few satellite channels, I struggling. The only difference

when I was under Mubarak, and the few months after the revolution, is

that in the Mubarak era, I got used to that, there was some clever

playing with the privately owned media. Now we are going through the

whole process over and over again. You are on TV are owned by one of

Egypt's richest men. You want to put together a show that analyses

the army's reaction, involving one of the leading opponents of the

military regime, a writer. The plan is there for the programme. But at

the last minute, you pull it. It never happens. Why? There were some

direct reasons. It was making a nation of so many things. That

particular story started a day earlier when it was announced that

two military generals were going to appear on another channel, with two

of my colleagues. So I called the head of the Channel. He said it was

at the same time. Everybody would be watching. I would like to watch

it. So I said we were going to repeat an old episode, because I

want everyone to watch that programme before we had our

analysis. The day after, the day it we were supposed to analyse that,

we started to feel the heat. It was from different directions. This is

where it gets important. What you mean by heat? Are you directly

threatened? They would not do it directly. This is what really gets

me. This is why I am making this stance. They would love to have the

cake and eat it. They would love for you to exercise self-censorship.

For you to get in my own without them getting their hands dirty. I

have an issue with that. If you do not like what I report, come out

and say, I do not like what you report, suspend you. Because it was

more subtle than that, a lot of people in the story it announced --

did not understand. This is where it comes in in terms of the

ownership. Businessmen who own channels, and their position is

very fragile. You channel is owned by Naguib Sawiris, one of the

richest men in the whole of Egypt. I use saying that he was not

prepared to back you taking on and confronting the military rulers of

the country quiz 1 --? Everyone has a limit. He has always supported me.

He has never intervened in my work, never told me what to do. He has

always left it to my judgement to do it my way. That is why I

volunteered, the head of the channel was begging me to go on air.

I said to him, no, somebody has to draw the line somewhere. If they

went into a channel with machine- guns, on that bloody Sunday, I am

not going to wait until they go into my studio when I am alive,

with machine-guns. Few think that it has got to that? There is a

situation in the country that the military is prepared, when

necessary, to use direct force against an independent media?

is why I am making my stance in the fashion that I am making it. I do

not want to destroy things. When he said after you suspended the

programme, and walked out of the studio, you said that it is --

there is no secret that most of the Prix revolution mentality is

imposed upon us today, if not worse. Are you essentially saying that the

guys who rule the country today are worse than Mubarak? In the sense

they do not have the experience that the Mubarak regime had. Both

are bad. If you are afraid of a camera, you must have something to

hide. If you do not believe in the freedom of the press, and you still

try to convince me that you are backing a revolution, I would say

to you, I am sorry, the only difference is that they are not

experienced. They are army people. They had never dealt with civil

issues as -- before. They needed some reminding. You wanted to make

a stand, and I dare say you did not mind the fact that many of the

revolutionary forces in this country saluted you for the

standard that you made, but what about your audience? There are

people across the country who tuned into a show to see one journalist

who was prepared to ask the tough questions, and you walked away and

betrayed the audience. I am not walking. I declare this on Twitter

immediately after. I'm not walking away. I am making a stand, and I am

coming back. I'm giving SCAF the chance. To come up with a statement,

or whatever they can. But they already have. I spoke the other day

to the Information Minister. He said, Yosri Fouda is not telling

the truth. The military regime does not want to manipulate and control

the media. We do want to see the flowering of free expression. After

I heard that, I saw that a number of the Supreme Council of the armed

forces have a court the media and said, I acknowledge that Yosri

Fouda is a skilled efficient and professional media person. There

has been an internal media -- understanding. He must return to

his natural place on air. With every due respect and appreciation

for what the general said, there still remain many more questions

than answers. At the same time, I'm not standing and doing nothing. I'm

joining a few of my colleagues who Again is interviewed by asking you

whether you feel you were somewhat naive at the beginning. Now you so

you want to found a new, independent TV network. Not run by

businessmen or the state, but and by the people. How can that

possibly happen? -- owned by the people. I hope that the people in

power realise there is a third way. You speak with great passion about

The Independent journalists and you want to see in this country. But

isn't it true that perhaps nations get the journalists and the

journalism that they deserve. In Egypt are now there is substantial

evidence that many journalists are themselves stuck in an old way of

thinking. The way there -- they reported Maspiro. This is what one

journalist inside state television said. She said she was ashamed of

working for state media. It had proven itself to be a slave for

whoever rules Egypt. Does it need to be utterly dismantled?

revolution did happen in Egypt, but there is one crucial fact. The

revolutionary forces were never allowed it to roll. So, if

something goes wrong now, it is not the fault of the revolutionaries.

It is the fault of whoever is running the country. I am not going

to blame my colleagues. A believe the vast majority of them are

victims. I am not going to blame someone who has a family to raise.

Everybody does whatever they can do. I just wonder whether you and other

journalists, liberals, revolutionaries, the kinds of

people who protested in Tahrir Square and to continue to protest,

are in some ways disconnected from ordinary Egyptians. Maybe the rural

workers who live on low wages. They want to return to normality. Do you

think they really care about your stand for independent journalism?

Yes, I think they do. They have already shown this. This cynical

view is that the silent majority hate the revolution. It just means

we need to be more patient to explain to them what is actually

taking place. My programme was all about this. Trying to explain to

them. You really believe the messages you were sending out, the

sort of Egypt you believe in, connects with those Egyptians who

perhaps do not have your education, your economic advantages, your

social status. Do you think you can reach them? Three words. Freedom,

dignity, social justice. When I compeer after five months what we

have achieved so far, almost nothing. All almost nothing. What a

very bleak conclusion. I have to be pragmatic. We got rid of Mubarak

and his cronies and D-Day couple of things here and there. But I look

at the country and what happened in Chenies here and I see more of what

we call the main core of the insurgency. I cannot even call it

the X regime because the regime is still with us. They are not trying

to reproduce the old regime. You can call at preserving the old

regime, because it never went away. So there was no revolution? Yes,

there was a revolution. I am so proud of people he came round and

said what they thought about the country and finally toppled the

head. Revolutions take years to happen and I think more people now

realise this. And more people are prepared to be a little more

patient. I just won the Supreme Council to realise this. They are

in charge of a country in transition. You are in a strange

place right now. A generous, a reporter. You are very used to

reporting other people's affairs and suddenly you have become the

news. Some people would say that is a cardinal error of Cologne to turn

yourself into the story. I do not like it. I do not like it. Now,

there are banners saying that people are with you. On why should

you do that if I am already live on television every day for three

hours. I can feed my ego easily through that. I do not need that.

wonder whether you have crossed a fundamental divide from being the

of server into being the thing unserved. You have decided that the

only way to really take part in this revolution in Egypt is to get

inside the politics, to play a political role. I do not want that

to happen. I'm very much aware of the difference between journalism

and activism. I have never crossed that line. I am now defending my

very profession. I am joining forces with other colleagues of

mine. Because we feel that journalism, free journalism can

play a crucial role in the future of Egypt. I do believe that

information is power and don't know that any one, especially in our

part of the world, would hate for the people to be empowered with

information. And I want to go on with this, to inform my people

about what is actually happening so that they can make up their own

minds. A final thought. There is, right now, a real question about

how much freedom of expression Egyptians have. For example,

sitting in a military prison right now is a young man who was

convicted and sentenced to three years of hard labour simply for

something he wrote it in a blogger on the internet about the armed

forces. Used said that in some ways the activities of the Supreme

Council are worse than those of Mubarak. That is a risk. I do not

want pressure over something I do not believe in. I do not think they

will go as far as this. If I have to, then I have to. The things I

know for sure about myself, and it is not an early about myself, is

that once you volunteer self- censorship you begin losing certain

things inside your conscience. You have to have social responsibility

and the measure of the moment that your country is going through. And

that have exercise that throughout my career, especially in the last

nine months. But at the same time I am not only going to take the

narrative of the army in regard to these incident or any incidents. If

I knew there was another narrative it is my duty to my country,

including the military, this is the point. I do believe that I help the

military help themselves through knowing the other narrative. This

is the whole point. This is why I believe it is not some game. Do not

waste your time and ours. The whole world is over these years ago. We

belong to a different age now. I cannot try and Channel from my

bedroom. I can go to London, Doha, Dubai, Cyprus and still tackle the

same issues, and may be in a harsher way. I do not want this to

happen. So, your message to the military rulers of this country is:

You are going nowhere. I am staying. I am so proud that I was in this

country at the right time and that I had a chance to play a little

better role. I will go back to my programme but things that have been

happening over the last few months are not very promising. We deserve

much better than this. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you

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