Simon Mann - Former mercenary HARDtalk

attack on Friday. More news later but right now it is time for hard

will. -- Hard Talk. It remains one of the most lucrative businesses in

Africa - mercenaries fighting and killing for profit. Efforts to

eliminate the soldiers of fortune has consistently failed. Like

yesterday, Simon and, made millions of dollars fighting other people's

wars in Africa. -- Simon Mann. His luck ran out in equatorial Guinea.

Seven years and plenty of prison time later he is a free man with a

gripping story. But how Clee is his Simon Mann, were open to huddle. I

want to begin with the young Simon Mann. -- will come too HARDtalk.

You were building a successful military career. He had made it

into the SAS. The new chose to quit. Why? I did not fancy being a career

soldier. Trying to become a general. It is quite hard, extremely

competitive, not very financially rewarding. I've always felt the

enjoyable part of soldiering was soldiering, at being out there,

rather than pushing a desk. So you like the fighting and you liked

money but you did not necessarily like everything else about the

Army? You will not make money as a soldier in the British Army. Not

serious money. As for the fighting, Northern Ireland was a kind of

fighting, a pretty nasty and boring to be frank. What you did them, he

crossed a very important line. You decide to go in to make his this

where you would be in conflicts, you would be fighting, had been

weapons, but not for Queen and country but for profit. Did you

realise you were crossing a very important one Kuala off course. In

fact, I have joined and left the British Army three times, which in

this day and age is quite unusual. After working in the computer

industry, I then rejoin the British Army for the third and last time. I

found myself on the staff of the general in command of the British

forces in the first goal for. -- first goal for. But after that new

then crossed the line. -- First Gulf War. I was put a cross that

line by events. I enjoyed my friend's small oil company. We were

three men with one project. That one project was in Angola. I am

talking about 1992. There were elections in Angola as a result of

the Crocker plan to bring an end to the proxy war in Angola. It was

complicated. But one party went back to war illegally after losing

the election. They then attacked our company. They attack my

livelihood. They attacked down men and captured our equipment in an

operating base on the Southpoint mouth of the river Congo. And then

you decided to become a private security force, a nurse and retain.

You decide it you would organise and intervention for profit stop

Bella how it took place was our equipment and company having been

attacked, I suggested to Tony Buckingham that we could fight back,

rather than simply be trampled on by people doing something criminal.

Bear in mind, the election had been recognised as free and fair by the

United Nations. But who exactly gave you the right to believe that

you could go to a golf with a bunch of fighters, privately Hyde,

heavily armed, and contemplate taking a life in a conflict there

was nothing to do with you? It did not feel that way to me. It felt

like it had a lot to do with me because I would lose my job.

Nonetheless, you were not a member of the Angolan government. You had

no role to play in an armed conflict about the future of

Angola's stop you there are quite right. We went to the Angolan

government and asked them to pay ours to retake the oil operating

base in question. They thought about it pretty briefly. They were

losing the war. They said yes. were a gun to hire. You said you

had no confidence the Government was any better than the rebels.

Human rights abuses. You wanted to make a profit and defend your

business. We don't know that. We have not seen them in action as a

government. Possibly they may have been much worse. It was none of

your business anyway. The real moral question is that here in yen-

dollar you decided to find the most potent weapons you could to play a

role in this conflict. You went to the Russians and tried to persuade

them to give you special fuel-air next bombs. Angola's had never seen

anything like this before you actually kiss -- succeeded. Did you

ever considered the Fazul wives they could have been lost as a

result of the armaments you were provided with. Certainly, long and

hard. You did not worry that given your for lack of knowledge about

how they would be used, you could be responsible for thousands of

dead. Of ID have close knowledge actually of what was going on. -- I

did have. You were part of -- we were part of the Angolan Armed

forces. I was a Brigadier with a uniform. You are saying that with a

smile. It was a fig-leaf. No, it was deliberate. All the south

African soldiers with me took a position in the Angolan owned

forces. -- armed forces. It was a technicality. An important

technicalities. You were supplying these powerful bombs and confessed

he did not know how they would be used and you simply prayed they

would not be used against civilian targets and killed thousands of

people. That is absolutely right but I had good grounds to believe

my prayers would be answered, because by that stage we had been

working with fear and violence for a long time. I had every reason to

believe they would use them responsibly, as indeed they did.

Returning to the motivation of money. We now fast-forward through

a career involved in private security throughout Africa and get

to the use 2003 and 20 of four. You became in often a plot to overthrow

the President of equatorial Guinea. You said the Leeson knew had was

based upon a supertanker full of petrol dollars there could be the

result of your involvement in this particular country. Yes. The

equatorial Guinea plot potential upside financially to me and

everybody else involved was very great. Said the motivation was

agreed? Partly. What else was it? Equatorial Guinea at that time, as

far as we could tell, was an ongoing tyranny it, a very nasty

when. There are many tyrannies in Africa, rank and on going. White

shoes that one? I was invited into an operation against the one. I

said I would join it. You could make a huge profit from it. Us that

Miss. You had to make contact with the person who would be the

figurehead leader of they knew government. Given that you insist

you had the best interests of the equatorial Guinea people at heart,

I wonder what reassurance you thought -- sort from the man who

would be put in place as the new President, reassurances about his

commitment to be a better leader for his country. I talked with him

at length. My feeling was that he was a very reasonable guys stop

what I have read your account of the meeting. You spend a lot of

time discussing how he would be transported from his exile into the

city and how he would stay close to you. There is no record of be

discussing his commitment to reform of the judiciary, development of a

civil society, human-rights, fixing the prisons, none of that stock

Wheeler those things were all discussed. Did he give you written

assurances? Who were you to decide he was fit and proper to lead a

country. Probably not the best person but it was up to me to make

that judgment, because if I did not join the care I would not have been

part of it. I had to make a decision - made joined the coup.

you were playing got? Note, because they would have hired someone else.

They? I refer to the boss, because of legal reasons I cannot name him.

But he was the guy who invited me to join the coup. Had I said no, he

would simply look for the next person down on his shopping this.

What was the cut he was offering it? It was not done like that. He

was offering me a good share of the long term development opportunities.

This brings us back to the loads of pe pe. There was some

hyperbole. He used it, facing this man who have decided you will help

to be the next leader of a control Kinney. You are thinking of all the

petrodollars. How seriously we considering his commitment to good

governance? Very seriously. Our the long-term development as a Business

and making money required for that this could be done properly. That

includes the things are you are talking about thereafter. We cannot

name this character of the boss. But you can name another backer of

this coup, Mark Thatcher, because he has been tried and convicted in

a court of involvement in the plot. How would you describe the moral

standing of all the people who you were associating within this plot?

They varied immensely. Some were only interested in the money. They

made no bones about it. Others were very entered in the money but what

of things to be done correctly. I had one chap with one of my men,

one of the white South African mercenaries. We were saying, this

is going to be very good for the people of equatorial Guinea and we

hope it will be a bloodless coup. And he looked at me and said, yes,

Simon, We Are the mercenaries, we do not care. He was honest. Are you

doing on most? Were well, I am telling you that. Yes, but you also

say you care about the good governance of equatorial Guinea.

One example, in one early draft of the plant, you decided to use

mercenary fighters who came from a group of former rebel fighters in

Liberia. Their record is for atrocities and abuses. One of the

most feared grooves in West Africa. You wanted to shift them into

equatorial Guinea to be your They would not have been carrying

out atrocities under our command. But their track records as they

would not have been listening. would have been offers that by our

own people. Why did you choose them? They were available and cheap.

My associate was working with them at the time. Do you think it is a

problem for people listening to this, for your credibility when you

are so ready to work with people with such consistent abuse of human

rights? You when into the jungle and met their leaders and offer

them a lot of money. But they had been fighting a ghastly civil war

in Liberia against Taylor, who also had committed atrocities. You are

extrapolating the atrocities of Liberia to a completely different

situation under different management. That would not have

happened. But there is still the question of what business of yours

was it, as a one-man from Britain in Africa, to be meddling in the

affairs of countries like Equatorial Guinea or CEO -- co

really don't. This strikes me as you using Africa as a playground --

Sierra Leone. He on every occasion there is a black African asking for

my involvement. So I come back to the question... We have so many

different UN reports and international human rights groups

saying mercenaries, soldiers of fortune, are contributing to the

terrible conflict inside Africa. You seem to be a prime example of

the problem. I am not sure I know of any instance weather is really

true. Most errors are getting involved in conflicts in Africa

Africa. -- mercenaries. Ba would those conflicts be worse without

them? They were still be going on without them all with them. I have

been involved in three major events. Angola, Equatorial Guinea, and Co

the Leeanne. Each one of those I cared a great deal about -- CEO

rarely UN. On each occasion I am on the invitation of a black African.

The boss is not black but the guy who we put in there as the new

President designates, is black. But -- but the man you were working for

was not black. He was going to pay me the money? The boss. He does not

have that kind of money. He is certainly not going to give it to

me. My payments were through a different man. If I had been

successful and he was elected, a supposed that ties with your claim

that what you hoped would happen was that you would be able to go to

Equatorial Guinea and be the powers behind the throne of a democracy in

which you could pull the strings. That was the idea. The idea of it

being a democracy was just a chance for you and your colleagues to

break of the profits. No. Even the boss, a fairly fruitless character,

said the one thing we were not going to do -- roofless, is cherry-

pick the oil industry. -- ruthless. In 2004 it went very wrong and you

were arrested. I was actually kidnapped. There was no extradition.

Let's say you were transported... Smuggle... You sat in prison and

were finally released. In those five years of misery did you think

to yourself, I have made a terrible mistake. I have compromise myself

and my morality. I have done nothing for Africa in the business

I have conducted over the last decade and a half in this continent.

I never felt that. It was clear I had made a mistake because I was in

prison. I had got things terribly wrong in Equatorial Guinea. By

looking at conscience and writing much of the book, I've roads a loss

of that book in prison in Zimbabwe. -- I wrote a lot. I played back to

myself all the events and had no problems with my conscience at all.

If you were a series about trying to do good in Africa do you think

the best thing was to deliver fighters, weaponry, some of the

most lethal bombs the country had ever seen, into the hands of men

pursuing conflicts? If we can talk about the bombs. We have spoken

about and go there and the bombs in detail. But those bombs were

extremely dangerous. We took in 20. It was a sovereign state deal. It

was the Angolan government buying from the Russian government. Only

one of those bombs was dropped. There was dropped as a demonstrator.

Nobody was killed. You need to - man we were told the time and the

close. Is this a lesson at this mercenary trade should continue? Is

it good for Africa? War is terrible. Ah I am someone that has managed to

help bring an end to it. Let's talk about your relationship with the

President. He described him as ruthless, bloodthirsty and brutal.

Since he was released from prison it you seem to be doing some

consultancy work for him. That is not true. I rose security paper for

him while I was in prison. For his government. Yes. I was happy to do

that. Subsequent to that I have been to Africa three times. I have

met the President. I have thanked him for what he did. From

Equatorial Guinea I have flown to their roots, where I gave evidence

as a witness -- Bay route, on a case. You now say the President is

not so bad and has improved his act. You say the situation in Equatorial

Guinea is better. I have been checking with different human

rights groups who say that by now, in Equatorial Guinea, the situation

is terrible. The abuses, torture, detention, are still being used.

cannot say from first-hand whether that is true or not. I thought you

were arguing that actually 10 York intervention had improved the

situation -- your while up intervention. It may have not been

but mice impression was that it had. We are nearly at the end. You are a

free man out. You can do what everyone. The wants to continue in

private security? -- do you want? But private security and mercenary

are both very different. I have never been going around flocking

the idea... Can you hire ask, of let's have a war. That has ever

been my position. I got involved in the Angolan war and got invited by