Browse content similar to Pervez Musharraf, former President, Pakistan. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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developments for a nuclear bomb. Those are the headlines. That's it | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
from me for now. Now it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
Over the past decade, Pakistan has developed a label as the most | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
dangerous country in the world. For much of that decade, the country | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
was led by my guest today. With his country racked by extremist | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
violence and corruption, and deeply troubled relations with Afghanistan, | :00:25. | :00:35. | |
India and the US, the former president is seeking a comeback. He | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
is currently an exile and faces trial if he returns home. Why does | :00:41. | :00:51. | |
:00:51. | :01:13. | ||
he think he is a solution to Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
When you left your country, your opponents were seeking to impeach | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
you. The people were against you and you were essentially forced | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
into exile. Why do you believe Pakistan would want you back? | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
Actually, I resigned. I remained the President for six months after | :01:32. | :01:41. | |
the actions. My popularity had gone down but that does not mean my | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
popularity was completely over. I resigned and left and I know many | :01:46. | :01:54. | |
people were crying in the country. However, now the situation is | :01:54. | :02:04. | |
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different. Pakistan is a cause bigger than myself. Because the | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
people are suffering, they are starting thinking that during my | :02:07. | :02:16. | |
period, economic and social factors were going up. So you think there | :02:16. | :02:26. | |
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is a yearning for you back in Pakistan? It is developing. Maybe | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
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not in the majority but certainly I can see a wind of change. If we | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
unpick the feelings of your countrymen and women towards you, | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
we need to make sense of what happened during your nine ruling | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
your country. You said you apologise to the nation for the | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
negative repercussions of decisions that were taken. What do you mean | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
by that? There was one decision, the National Reconciliation | :02:55. | :03:05. | |
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Ordnance, which pardoned cases in court for some people. Was that a | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
mistake you made? So after nine years in power, that was your only | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
mistake? You have to judge a country's leader on the welfare of | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
the people and the development of the state. We have to indicate what | :03:27. | :03:36. | |
is the welfare of the people and the development of the state. I had | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
made contributions to both. When we look at what happened in Pakistan, | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
we see a country that sunk into turmoil. It became routinely | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
labelled in America as the most dangerous country in the world. You | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
were the military leader of Pakistan. This seems a failure that | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
you could not deliver security in your own country. That was given in | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
the early stages. It was not the most dangerous country in the world | :04:02. | :04:12. | |
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for me. There was a lot of sectarian extremism and turmoil in | :04:16. | :04:26. | |
:04:26. | :04:31. | ||
Pakistan. We were moving in the right direction. You obviously did | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
not control things. We now know the truth about some things that | :04:34. | :04:43. | |
happened while you were in power. I am thinking about the obvious case | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
of Osama Bin Laden. From 2005, when you were in power, he was living | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
within earshot of Pakistan's biggest camp. We know all of that | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
now. We know that you failed. you think everything is a failure, | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
what about the people that we caught from number three downwards? | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
Was that not a success? What do we always see the glass half empty? We | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
caught other leaders in Pakistan. Many individuals in Guantanamo Bay | :05:12. | :05:21. | |
were caught by Pakistan. The point is that many senior Americans, the | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
people who were in power, who have looked at what happened, to quote | :05:24. | :05:34. | |
the former Defence Secretary, you played both sides. You signed a | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
two-way partnership with the US on their War on Terror. At the same | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
time you did not give up your ties with Islamist movements, including | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
the Taliban. That is not true. I have always maintained excellent | :05:48. | :05:58. | |
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relations with Colin Powell and President Bush. They are the people | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
who ordered their Secretary of State to tell you that if you did | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
not join the partnership in 2001 after 9/11 then Pakistan would be | :06:07. | :06:17. | |
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bombed back to the Stone Age. Those are your words. You were | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
intimidated and threatened and were told that if Pakistan did not join | :06:20. | :06:30. | |
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the alliance you would be taken back to the Stone Age. That is the | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
start. We joined the coalition. After that... You started it on the | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
basis of a threat. You are a military man. You must up have | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
resented that. Let me finish. After I joined the coalition, what | :06:45. | :06:55. | |
happened in the seven years after is the question. We were delivering | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
and took the country in the right direction. That is where my | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
relationship with President Bush and Colin Powell developed. Not in | :07:01. | :07:11. | |
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2001. Even now we have good relations. They have a poor | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
judgement of people if I was double-crossing them and they still | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
maintain good relations with me. This is what the media is | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
projecting. This is absolutely wrong. It is not just the media. | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
Let me quote you the words of a senior figure in the CIA from 1977 | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
to 2006. He was commissioned by Barack Obama to undertake a review | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
of policy in Pakistan. He said, quote, Pakistan and General | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
Musharraf played the Bush administration like a fiddle. They | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
gave us just enough to keep the administration happy but not enough | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
to eliminate Al-Qaeda and virtually nothing on the Taliban. This is his | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
idea. I do not accept that. We have to understand that they will always | :08:01. | :08:09. | |
be anti-Pakistan. But this man matters because he was a senior | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
figure in the CIA and was watching what happened during your time in | :08:13. | :08:23. | |
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office. I do not agree with that statement at all. Is that all you | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
can say to all these people who look at the evidence, including a | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
general who has looked at after you left office, linked it to what | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
happened during your time in office, and says that for years Pakistan | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
and your intelligence agency have been playing a double game. He has | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
been saying that Haqqani has been an extension of Al-Qaeda. He did | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
not say that at all. He did not involve me in that. That is a | :08:57. | :09:07. | |
different subject. I do not think it was a balanced statement. If | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
35,000 people of Pakistan have been killed, if 3,000 soldiers have been | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
killed, if more than 300 operatives have been killed, and their | :09:13. | :09:23. | |
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children have been killed, by who? Al-Qaeda and Taliban. Is there not | :09:25. | :09:35. | |
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a disconnect? We are quoting Pakistan wrongly and on the other | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
side Pakistan is not doing enough. There is a problem there, no? We | :09:43. | :09:53. | |
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need to understand what the problem is. I know why it is. This brings | :09:53. | :10:01. | |
us to the present. We have talked about your failures or success, | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
during your time in office. But you sit here as a man who wants to go | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
back to Pakistan and wants to play a leading role in your country | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
going forward. What is the message to people who believe that right | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
now, today, Pakistan's intelligence services are working hand in glove | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
with people like Haqqani and his people? This is not the case. Every | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
intelligence organisation has to have an interest in all | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
organisations, even if they are against them. I am not privy to | :10:32. | :10:41. | |
:10:42. | :10:45. | ||
what the government is doing now. Coalition forces quitting in 2014 | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
must be causing worries. They must be analysing what we are able to do | :10:49. | :10:59. | |
:10:59. | :11:00. | ||
in 2014. The first victim after that is going to be in Pakistan. | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
Any leader has to think about the options. Is the US or Britain | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
giving assurances to Pakistan about the situation? Are they going to be | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
helpful to us after 2014 or are we to fend for ourselves? These are | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
questions which the Army and the government must be considering and | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
do not judge them. I would not begrudge them anything. I want to | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
establish that why is it that the best intelligence says to us that | :11:24. | :11:34. | |
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the decision-making body of the Taliban meets in Pakistan. It was | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
true before and it is true today. I wonder why you believe that is? | :11:43. | :11:53. | |
:11:53. | :12:06. | ||
That is nonsense. Nonsense? Yes. Air surveillance was all the CIA. | :12:06. | :12:16. | |
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This is a mirage. This is what people say and what you think. | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
There is a refugee camp of about 100,000 people outside the capital. | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
It is possible that people across the border come and stay there | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
because this is a strategic place. But if you think there is a | :12:31. | :12:41. | |
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conference table of the Taliban around, this is nonsense. I do not | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
think the leader... This is what you said about Osama Bin Laden, I | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
suppose? I did not know. He happened to be there. Bad luck. | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
you saying to me that you believe the relationship between Pakistan | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
and the US has fundamentally broken down? You really believe it has | :13:01. | :13:11. | |
:13:11. | :13:14. | ||
broken down entirely? The leader has no reason to be in Pakistan. He | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
has never been in Pakistan. He has always been in Kandahar province. | :13:18. | :13:28. | |
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He is a leader of the Taliban. There is a resurgence of the | :13:28. | :13:36. | |
Taliban. He has support in the countryside in the east. Why would | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
he be there? He is a leader of the Taliban. Why would he be in | :13:42. | :13:52. | |
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Pakistan and not in his own The outcome is going to be a | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
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Taliban lead Afghanistan. They two possibilities. There were about 10 | :14:33. | :14:41. | |
different factions fighting amongst themselves. Ora in 19196, where | :14:41. | :14:51. | |
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they were Taliban in -- and the Northern Alliance. -- 1996. We will | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
go back to those two situations. Each one of them will impact the | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
current situation in Pakistan. we have not mentioned is Pakistan's | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
preoccupation with India. You refused India and anti- Pakistan | :15:11. | :15:21. | |
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Afghanistan. If you go historically, there is evidence that India is | :15:23. | :15:33. | |
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interfering in Afghanistan. There is a tremendous amount of evidence. | :15:38. | :15:47. | |
What is the consulate metaphor. They have some prior interest. They | :15:47. | :15:57. | |
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on the boarder of Pakistan. No-one has come to Pakistan. They have | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
been indoctrinated and they are being sent back. We can't | :16:08. | :16:17. | |
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physically stop anti- aircraft missiles. Who is giving these | :16:20. | :16:27. | |
people the weapons? You feel that Pakistan is duty bound to continue | :16:27. | :16:37. | |
to meddle because of an Indian presence? You have a recipe for a | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
permanent conflict. Certainly with India, and Afghanistan becomes the | :16:43. | :16:53. | |
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crucible for it. Is it time for you to overcome your paranoia about | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
India? If you believed that the security threats posed by Pakistan | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
today are so grave, and clearly you do, and that Pakistan's domestic | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
situation is powerless. If you went back to Pakistan, would you want to | :17:14. | :17:24. | |
see the military takeover again? not at all. I believe that | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
political change, through political means, and ensuring that the | :17:27. | :17:35. | |
government comes through the political process through elections. | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
A government which understands the problems. That is my idea. Not | :17:39. | :17:48. | |
military conscription. You said that there was despondency in | :17:48. | :17:57. | |
Pakistan, and that people should go to the military. You said that the | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
saviour was the army. Sounds like a man that is keen to see the army | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
back in politics. No, immediately after that I said that the army | :18:08. | :18:18. | |
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should not take over. You picture a country in disarray. You say that | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
you have solutions. I had been the President of Pakistan for nine | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
years and I know the solutions. In my time, all socio-economic | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
indicators of Pakistan were positive. Each one of them, for the | :18:40. | :18:47. | |
people and for the country. And the social economic indicator I will | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
answer. Here is one indicator, Transparency International, looks | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
at worldwide corruption and perception across the world. | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
Pakistan, during your leadership, sank according to Transparency | :18:58. | :19:08. | |
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International. Corruption had reduced, and there was no | :19:12. | :19:22. | |
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corruption at all. He said that national wealth was looted. There | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
is not a single corruption charge against me or my government when I | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
was there. Whoever has written this judgement of my time is talking | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
nonsense and I take serious exception to it. I did not say that | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
you were taking personal allegations of corruption, just | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
that Transparency International reported that national wealth was | :19:44. | :19:52. | |
looted by national hands. You took many measures which did question | :19:52. | :20:00. | |
your commitment. You locked up the chief justice. Are you talking of | :20:00. | :20:10. | |
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corruption, or something else? spoke about the chief minister. | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
When you report and reference somebody, make sure you understand | :20:14. | :20:24. | |
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whose report you are giving. We are just trying to ascertain what you | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
would try to bring to a future Pakistan. It is not about rhetoric | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
or a record, you locked up the chief justice. The lawyers of | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
Pakistan believe that you have declared war on the chief | :20:37. | :20:46. | |
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prosecutor. Will you bring that to Pakistan? You don't regard | :20:49. | :20:59. | |
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challenging the notion of independency as anti-democratic? | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
clearly means money involvement. Is that the issue you are talking | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
about? It is absolutely different. At the time that I moved in March | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
against the Chief Justice, that was a reference sent to me again | :21:15. | :21:24. | |
alleging allegations against him. I sent the matters to the Supreme | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
Council, which I did because it was a constitutional act. Pakistani | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
politics are in a state of ferment. The only new politician on the | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
scene who is attracting support, with rallies and large-crowd | :21:37. | :21:46. | |
appearances is Imran Khan. His message is that the older politics | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
in Pakistan were ruled by a mafia. Politics in Pakistan in the past, | :21:53. | :22:02. | |
if you were in them, you were a criminal. He was aiming that at | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
you? No, I have never been a politician. You were the President | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
of Pakistan? Yes. We're talking about territorial issues, but not | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
the key issues. What does governing the country mean? The people and | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
the faith. You take poverty, employment, health, | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
telecommunications, industry, economy, talk to me about those | :22:28. | :22:38. | |
:22:38. | :22:47. | ||
issues. That is where we succeeded. That is what I did. If you talk | :22:47. | :22:57. | |
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about Imran Khan, he does not know governance. How can he report on | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
those things? If you go home you face arrest because there are | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
charges against you for not protecting the former Prime | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
Minister Benazir Bhutto from assasination. It is the chief | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
minister who is responsible for that, it is not the responsibility | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
for the President to have executive authority for security issues. | :23:23. | :23:33. | |
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is the prime minister. All those years that you were guiding the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
relationship with the United States and the war against Islamist | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
militants, you had no authority? For the first three years, yes the | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
Supreme Court of Pakistan gave me three years. I was the prime | :23:48. | :23:58. | |
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minister, the army chief, the chairmen etc. At that time, if the | :24:04. | :24:12. |