Sebastian Nerz - Leader of the German Pirate Party HARDtalk

Those are the headlines. Time now for HARDtalk.

Has the age of protest delivered a new way of doing politics in

Germany? When the Pirate Party won 15 seats in the state parliament in

September it was a political sensation that rocked the country.

The party campaigned for all data to be made public, free internet

access and free public transport. It is a young party with supporters

who believe citizens should have a say in shaping the Government using

the internet. Can the leader of the Pirate Party, Sebastian Nerz,

transform his movement from a protest party into a lasting

political force? Sebastian Nerz, welcome to HARDtalk.

You were as shocked as everyone else when you won nearly 9% as the

vote. We assumed we would get 5% and into the parliament but 9% we

did not expect. Do you think you deserve such an electoral success

when you see other established parties only getting 2% of the

vote? Depends what you mean by deserve. I believe the established

parties in Germany are doing things wrong. They have no links to the

people anymore. They're doing politics in a way that does not

represent Germany anymore. think you represent Germany? I

believe that we are linked to the way in which the citizens of

Germany are communicating. Your candidates range in age from

19 to 41. Do you think young people can represent everyone? People are

facing tough times. Established parties have no solutions to

present. They have led us into these problems so we need new ideas.

Let's look at one of your ideas that you campaigned for. Free

internet access. It will help people to provide education. The

internet provides information. For example, Wikipedia. What is new

about that? It is not just the Pirate Party who say that the

internet is a useful tour for education and communication.

Government says the internet is useful but they do not want to do

everything to make sure people can access it. People also want jobs,

don't they? Unemployment for young people in Germany is not as bad as

it is in other countries but will this be delivering people what they

need? Yes, they want jobs. To get jobs

they need education. German industry are always saying they

need more educated people. They do not need people standing and doing

trivial jobs. They need educated people. Also you say that you want

the free flow of information and freedom of expression. Are there no

limits to this freedom of expression? Freedom is always

defined as much freedom as you can have that does not affect someone

else. You should not tell lies or insult people. So there are limits?

No defamation, no libel. What other limits would there be? In Germany

there are limits. For example denial of the Holocaust. Hate

speech? Yes. If I tell you what Gregory Engels said, the former

chairman of the Pirate Party on an international level. When people

tried to close WikiLeaks, he said the Pirate Party would not accept

any limits on free speech. But the information in WikiLeaks

compromised the lives of people who may have given information to the

military, for example. Is that acceptable to you? It is important

to us that sources are protected. We do not publish information that

endanger people. But WikiLeaks did not publish that information

because they wanted to. They made serious errors. I believe the

information they are publishing is important for society otherwise

people cannot decide what is going on. So there are limits and

paedophiles and people who use child pornography, there is no

freedom of speech for them? That is correct. What is different about

your message? Many governments say they want to give people free

laptops. Our policy is not about deciding what is right or wrong but

communicating with the people. We don't need a parliament sitting in

the ivory tower that is not communicating with the people. We

need the people to be able to participate in political processes.

You also want the abolition of patents and copyrights? You have

run into considerable controversy over this. If is about changing the

way copyright is working. We have seen more serious laws over the

last few years. If you compare laws in Germany with the ones we had at

the turn of the 20th century we see that artists and consumers are the

losers. There is something we have to change. You want consumers to

consume content on the internet for free? It is not about free

consumption. It is about a new way of copyrights. We have to find new

ways. A lot of artists have said, what will we do to finance

ourselves and our creativity? How can artists live? It is one of the

main questions that needs to be answered for copyright. But the way

copyrights are working now does not allow artists to live. It is only a

small percentage of artists that can live from their work, however

much they are selling. It is large corporations who are making the

money. Large corporations would say they invest a lot in artists.

Reverting to your point about traditional politicians having

failed. You say they are neglecting basic civil rights for people in

Germany. What do you mean? right to demonstrate. There had

been serious restrictions placed in the last 20 years. In one city if

we take the law literally it would be illegal for more than three

people to gather in one public place. It does not allow for

spontaneous demonstrations. You are also opposed to surveillance? You

think there has been too much in Germany, but don't you need that?

You need a certain amount of surveillance but not too much.

People will feel insecure if there is too much. People who are under

surveillance act differently. you see recently in eastern Germany

that the authorities uncovered a neo-Nazi cell that they believe is

responsible for 10 deaths. The German people are outraged that

this went undetected. That case would suggest that there is not

enough surveillance going on in Germany. This gang has been known

to authorities for ten years. More surveillance would not have changed

anything. There was a German who was under surveillance and has been

charged with being a member of al- Qaeda. He was found without the use

of data retention so we do not need data retention. You have academic

studies in Germany saying they might be as many as 5,600 neo-Nazi

extremists who might pose a problem to society.

I'm not saying we do not need surveillance. There have been large

studies showing that CCTV in living areas does not mean any decrease in

crime levels. They show an effect in parking spots. We should use

them there but we do not need them You do not really know the extent

of the surveillance that is needed to ensure the neo-Nazis do not

attack people. What you are saying is that you think it is a good

thing to say. No. The fact that the federal agencies know about these

people shows that the amount of surveillance that we have in

Germany is more than enough. The fact is that studies made over the

last few years showing that additional surveillance that was

installed in the last year since 9/11 showed no decrease, no

decrease whatsoever, in crime levels in Germany. It shows that

surveillance methods are useless. You have talked about the need for

greater transparency in surveillance and so on. If I ask

you about the 14,000 members of the Pirate Party, you have been in

existence since 2006, do you know if there are any members of neo-

Nazi groups? We have two people I know who have been members of the

National Democratic Party. Which is a far-right party that some people

want banned. It is a very right- wing extremist party. I believe

that people can change. Those two members were Valentin Seipt, he was

a district chairman, and Mathias Bahner was a member. When these two

cases came up, you said that not every member of the National

Democratic Party is a neo-Nazi. If someone was a thug or an official

in the NPD, that is more serious. Do you stand by that - that not

everyone in the National Democratic Party is a neo-Nazi? There are some

young people who enter the National Democratic party without knowing

what they are up to. Most of them leave the party after one month or

two months after realising what kind of people they are. You say

they did not quite understand because they were too young to

appreciate what they are joining. But you represent young people,

most of your members are young, don't they know what they are

doing? For example a 16... He was 18. They make make mistakes.

the young people in your party making mistakes? I talked about

Susanne Graf, she is 19. Everybody is making mistakes, that is human

behaviour. The problem is that the NPD has been one of the most

effective parties in recruiting young people. It sounds that you,

as the leader of the German Pirate Party, are taking a relaxed view of

this issue of neo-Nazi membership. Given German history, the Pirate

Party could suffer heavily from this. With Matthias Bahner, he has

been asked to give up his seat in the parliament. He has been a

member of the NPD. The problem is that the laws do not allow us to

force him to give up his seat. you understand what Juergen Falter

says? You have to clean up this problem. Yes. Are you really doing

it? Another member of the Pirate Party, Bodo Thiesen, he cites

Holocaust deniers on his website. Some members of your own party,

like Wolfgang Dudda, are very angry. They are totally appalled that the

process to reject him has taken so long. When the Pirate Party was

founded, and the way that the internal core of the party is

working, they are expelling someone from the party, the order that we

chose is not working. Are you sorting out the problem? Now I

believe that he's expulsion from the party will be entered this year.

So you will throw him out? Yes. say that the traditional parties

have failed to give solutions to the problems. One of the solutions

that you give is free unlimited public transport to people. Have

you worked out how expensive that is going to be? Each household in

Berlin will have to pay, it will be paid by a tax. So people have to

pay extra? Yes, of course. So are you going to say to people that you

have to pay, when they are feeling squeezed? A lot of people are

already using public transport. Do you know what Berlin's state debt

is? It is roughly 64 billion euros. Andreas Baum, one of your

candidates, when he was asked this, he said it is many millions. It is

actually billions. And do you think that you offer a new way, a new

vision, when it comes to solving the financial crisis, or the euro

crisis? Angela Merkel has said this is the biggest challenge to Europe

since the Second World War. Angela Merkel is always citing things as

the most challenging problem so far. It is a way of doing politics.

Quite often, she does not propose a solution. What is your solution?

do not have a solution. You don't have a solution to the biggest

problem that people are talking about at the moment? It is a

question of the moment. It will not be a question later. So you are a

protest movement. No. We will have to answer questions such as solving

the euro crisis. People said that about the Green Party. But they

become part of the political establishment. Their leader said,

solutions need compromises. You are now in the state parliament in

Berlin. I think it is about talking to the people. Letting them

participate in politics. It is not about Members of Parliament

deciding what is right. They have to talk to the people in order to

get to solutions. How? Have town hall meetings? Have a referendum?

Yes, all of them. A referendum is the hardest yes-no question you can

ask. It is the end of a political pr pr have to let the people

participate during the process. they help devise policies? They are

consultation processes at the moment that all governments have.

No, not really. I do not know what to call them. So more direct

communication between the politicians and people? Yes.

that is your big idea. In 30 seconds, what is it? I believe we

have to change the way that politics is working, to a more open

style of politics, to a more transparent style, to help people

to participate, and we have to start a society where people can