Mark Serwotka - Public and Commercial Services Union, UK HARDtalk


Mark Serwotka - Public and Commercial Services Union, UK

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Mark Serwotka - Public and Commercial Services Union, UK. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

established. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Is 2012 to be a year of

:00:12.:00:18.

strikes and worker protests? Well, there's certainly plenty of

:00:18.:00:22.

discontent to go around. UK unemployment is still rising,

:00:22.:00:30.

incomes are being squeezed and pension provision downsized. My

:00:30.:00:33.

guest is Mark Serwotka, leader of one of Britain's biggest public

:00:33.:00:37.

sector trade unions. He says the time has come for workers to stand

:00:37.:00:40.

and fight, but in this age of austerity, do unions have the will

:00:40.:00:50.
:00:50.:01:01.

and the muscle for a prolonged confrontation? Welcome to HARDtalk.

:01:02.:01:11.
:01:12.:01:12.

Thank you. He used the 2012 as the year of industrial unrest? That

:01:12.:01:15.

will depend on whether the government carry on making working

:01:15.:01:20.

people those with at least, pay the biggest prize to solve a problem we

:01:20.:01:25.

did not cause. If we get a continuation of pay restraint, tax

:01:25.:01:31.

on pensions, job cuts, then I do think 2012 was see a lot of

:01:31.:01:34.

resistance and I hope that is the case because we believe that is

:01:34.:01:38.

entirely the wrong way for the government to go. We will not get

:01:38.:01:45.

anything else, or will we? The current economic circumstances

:01:45.:01:49.

right around the industrialised world. Inevitably the direction of

:01:49.:01:54.

public policy will be job cuts and tax increases because of the

:01:54.:02:00.

enforced austerity. That is the political choice which is made by

:02:00.:02:06.

governments including a run. Isn't that the reality? We do not think

:02:06.:02:10.

it is. We think the shame of Britain at the moment is that no

:02:10.:02:15.

politicians will argue for a different cause. We think that

:02:15.:02:18.

austerity, cuts and a shrinking of the economy is the completely wrong

:02:18.:02:23.

way to go. We think the government's forecasts, which have

:02:23.:02:27.

been so wrong, one of the most interesting ones is that they have

:02:27.:02:33.

had to borrow �110 billion more than forecast to pay for the cost

:02:33.:02:37.

of rising unemployment. Our philosophy is that it has got to be

:02:37.:02:41.

better for people to be in work doing something productive and

:02:41.:02:48.

paying tax rather than out of work, getting welfare. We will pick away

:02:48.:02:54.

at your political plus a B in a moment. Before that, just in terms

:02:54.:02:57.

of the union's strategy, there is a sense in which might look at what

:02:57.:03:02.

you say about the dispute about pensions in particular, running for

:03:02.:03:07.

the last year or more, and I gathered that you relish

:03:07.:03:12.

confrontation. Would you accept that? No matter, I think that is

:03:12.:03:16.

often portrayed by people looking for somewhere to rather than the

:03:16.:03:20.

truth. I do not relish confrontation. I would much rather

:03:20.:03:25.

have a quiet life and let people get about delivering public

:03:25.:03:31.

services an delivering what they take pride in doing. But when I

:03:31.:03:35.

represent some of the lowest paid people in Britain who have had two

:03:35.:03:40.

years of a pay freeze, now have a tax on pensions and their partners,

:03:40.:03:45.

families and communities are suffering, someone has to stand up

:03:45.:03:50.

and say there is an alternative. In that sense I am very determined.

:03:50.:03:55.

You say someone has to stand up and you quote your father, saying, if

:03:55.:03:59.

you stand and fight you may not win, but if you do not fight she was

:03:59.:04:05.

certainly lose. It has become a mantra for you. But Ed Miliband,

:04:05.:04:09.

part of the labour movement of which you are a part, says, strikes

:04:09.:04:14.

are always the consequence of failure on all sides. Note, all

:04:14.:04:21.

sides. And it is a fate here we cannot afford designation. I do not

:04:21.:04:26.

know how many years Ed Miliband has been that reworking under low paid

:04:26.:04:31.

and difficult conditions. Strikes Sarbi last trip short for working

:04:31.:04:37.

people to defend themselves against an attack. -- are the last resort.

:04:37.:04:42.

Nobody would ever go on strike without a good reason. Why did

:04:42.:04:48.

nurses, teachers, Jobcentre workers, go on strike and lose pay. Because

:04:48.:04:52.

after a year of trying to persuade the government of a different

:04:52.:04:58.

course, they refused. End the strike becomes a last resort.

:04:58.:05:04.

this is where we get me once. There was a national strike involving

:05:04.:05:11.

millions. The government made a few amendments to its pensions

:05:11.:05:16.

proposals and in essence they modified it a little bit. Most of

:05:16.:05:20.

the public sector unions have now agreed to go back into talks under

:05:20.:05:26.

is that of Higgins, Parameters, which the government has set. Your

:05:26.:05:32.

unions has refused. You other one now which is out in the cold.

:05:32.:05:38.

we have done has been consistent. We recognise that millions went on

:05:38.:05:43.

strike because they were forced to work longer, pay more and get less.

:05:43.:05:51.

They still face that. The question I pose... I know that, but there is

:05:51.:05:57.

no solidarity any more. If you look at the biggest unions, from G M B

:05:57.:06:02.

to Unison, representing workers and teachers, they have agreed to go

:06:02.:06:10.

into talks on the basis of a government offer. The PCS had said

:06:10.:06:15.

no and you are out and urine. have agreed to take back their

:06:15.:06:25.
:06:25.:06:27.

executives. -- you are on your own. if it was right to go on strike six

:06:27.:06:36.

weeks ago, why is it OK now? We asked people to lose pay and go on

:06:36.:06:43.

strike against something that has not altered one bit. Many people

:06:44.:06:46.

say it has all to it, including leading officials and the Labour

:06:46.:06:52.

Party. One says they are a really good step in the right direction

:06:52.:06:56.

and a much better deal for public sector workers. Danny Alexander

:06:56.:07:00.

told Parliament he got everything he wanted without spin be an extra

:07:00.:07:07.

penny. Francis Maude was also happy. And they're right. Every public

:07:07.:07:12.

sector worker will be asked to work longer, pay thousands more and get

:07:12.:07:19.

thousands less. They have not agreed to talk. Each union was

:07:19.:07:24.

asked to sign up to accept the three main principles and we said

:07:24.:07:30.

we are not prepared to do that so the government has thrown a start.

:07:30.:07:34.

The final staging or strategic thinking. When it comes to the

:07:34.:07:38.

fight, your father always said, if you fight you have a chance, if you

:07:38.:07:43.

do not fight you have no chance. The Abbey unions have agreed to

:07:43.:07:49.

talk on the basis. Used said your members will continue strike action

:07:49.:07:56.

free 2012. First of all, I do not believe we are being the union.

:07:56.:08:02.

do not know that. But even if you are on your own, you are prepared

:08:02.:08:07.

to keep on striking 32012. We will talk to our members about what they

:08:07.:08:12.

want to do. I'll recommend they refuse to sign away the pensions

:08:12.:08:17.

they were promised decades ago and give the Government what it wants.

:08:17.:08:24.

Any leader who was to say now that they would not look at the material

:08:24.:08:28.

circumstances would be doing a disservice to their members.

:08:28.:08:34.

Already, unite have rejected the agreement in the civil service. Our

:08:34.:08:39.

colleagues in Northern Ireland have done the same. We will not be on a

:08:39.:08:45.

run. It is equally as unfair and unjust on your again as it is with

:08:45.:08:50.

others will stop is it fair and just at public sector workers get

:08:50.:08:55.

the sort of protected pension that these days, if you look across the

:08:55.:08:59.

private sector, is frankly available to only a tiny percentage

:08:59.:09:06.

to of private sector workers? that there in a society where

:09:06.:09:09.

everybody shares sit and burdens when it comes to difficult economic

:09:09.:09:15.

times? I think it is their eye and there would like the same provision

:09:15.:09:24.

to be applied to the private sector. He will not be go. 11 people in the

:09:24.:09:29.

private sector have a defined benefit scheme. It was 36% five

:09:29.:09:35.

years ago. Private sector employee has closed pension schemes while

:09:35.:09:43.

they did very well themselves. The answer a fait equality of misery is

:09:43.:09:48.

to move the pensions upwards. can characterise it any way you

:09:48.:09:52.

want but the reality is that only one in ten private sector workers

:09:52.:09:59.

have a defined benefit pension. Whereas your members, even under

:09:59.:10:05.

the government's modified reform proposals, would all have a form of

:10:05.:10:12.

defined benefit pension. They have maintain that. If you look at the

:10:12.:10:16.

analysis by pension experts they get this sort of pension that a

:10:16.:10:21.

private sector worker would have to put 30% of their salary into a

:10:21.:10:26.

pension pot for. Your members will have a baby is pension been brought

:10:26.:10:36.

to us. That might a fabulous pension. The average pension is

:10:36.:10:41.

�4,000 per year. We do not represent higher-paid people on

:10:41.:10:46.

six-figure salaries. The point remains that they get a guaranteed

:10:46.:10:50.

pension linked to their salary and only a tiny fraction of workers

:10:51.:10:56.

elsewhere in the UK get that privilege. But the fight accept the

:10:56.:11:01.

logic of what you were putting to me, it is to take the view that she

:11:01.:11:06.

must have a race to the bottom. Pensions are not being taken to the

:11:06.:11:11.

bottom. They're being taken further to the bottom than they are wrapped

:11:11.:11:18.

up. They are asked to work belittle longer, contribute more. The lowest

:11:18.:11:23.

paid or not being asked to contribute more. Independent

:11:23.:11:27.

analysis I have seen suggests it remains an outstandingly good deal

:11:27.:11:31.

in the context of what people on similar salaries getting the

:11:32.:11:37.

private sector. Up they are being asked to work eight she is more in

:11:37.:11:42.

some cases, pay thousands of more even when they have had eight you

:11:42.:11:46.

pay freeze. And there is done to get tens of thousands of pounds

:11:46.:11:52.

less. His conversation is wrong because I do not start, everyone

:11:52.:11:58.

else gets less, so we should. I start from, what does your contract

:11:58.:12:05.

they? What we promised? Independent reports do last that the pensions

:12:05.:12:12.

take account of the fact that we have an 8% contribution. These

:12:12.:12:17.

things did not materialise last year. They are his directly where

:12:17.:12:21.

they are because our package of pay and pensions in comparison with the

:12:21.:12:27.

private sector was broadly... were just as. The thunder mental

:12:27.:12:33.

question is, who ultimately bankrolls the public sector

:12:33.:12:40.

pensions? The taxpayer. Exactly, most of them could not dream of

:12:40.:12:45.

having the same pension guarantees as your members. These taxpayers,

:12:45.:12:51.

this pensions are getting worse, will continue to tolerate paying

:12:51.:12:57.

their taxes for the sort of completely ring-fenced, protected

:12:57.:13:04.

pensions you imagine. Let's be clear. In the private sector we

:13:04.:13:07.

have seen the beginnings of resistance of a tax on their

:13:07.:13:14.

pensions. Balloting has begun. If every taxpayer could choose where

:13:14.:13:18.

every penny went, none of mine would be to nuclear weapons or

:13:18.:13:28.
:13:28.:13:28.

illegal wars or subsidising massive tax relief, which actually costs

:13:28.:13:34.

more, for pensions in the private sector. That it exclusively benefit

:13:34.:13:42.

the rich as. What I stand for is the working people and the hats and

:13:42.:13:49.

have not. I am articulating that the have-nots deserve not to pay

:13:49.:13:54.

such a massive price for something they did nothing to cause. I am

:13:54.:13:59.

sure you have looked at the EU and members of unions similar to yours

:13:59.:14:06.

in Greece, Portugal and Italy. And Ireland. They are experiencing a

:14:06.:14:11.

loss of earnings, jobs, pensions that far outstrips anything that

:14:11.:14:16.

has happened to British workers. Britain has a serious deficit and

:14:16.:14:23.

debt problem. So we knew look overseas, do you not think, we have

:14:23.:14:28.

to be realistic. This is not just about Britain, this is something

:14:28.:14:32.

happening around the industrialised world and we have to step up to the

:14:32.:14:42.
:14:42.:14:45.

I have nothing but admiration for those who are facing austerity, we

:14:45.:14:50.

are never the ones who have caused the problem. You say that but in

:14:50.:14:55.

many cases there has been no resistance, in Greece they have

:14:55.:15:01.

accepted a 20% slashing. But they have had so many strikes. But not

:15:01.:15:06.

on the issue that there will be cuts in salaries in the civil

:15:06.:15:10.

service. In Ireland, they have the Croke Park agreement, where the

:15:10.:15:15.

unions and the government worked together on long-term public sector

:15:15.:15:19.

pay freezes, accepting the pensions conditions would changed

:15:19.:15:23.

fundamentally. Unions and governments in the light of crisis

:15:23.:15:28.

have worked together, why can't you? Fund the mentally because I

:15:28.:15:32.

don't agree with co-operating with the medicine that is being wrongly

:15:32.:15:37.

applied and to the wrong patient -- fundamentally. If we accept that

:15:37.:15:41.

what is happening at the moment will carry on we will pay a bigger

:15:41.:15:45.

price. I am advocating someone who will articulate something different.

:15:45.:15:50.

For example, why are we all worshipping at the altar of the

:15:50.:15:54.

markets? They do not care about health services or welfare or how

:15:54.:15:59.

people at the bottom do, they care about making money. Why are they

:15:59.:16:02.

now determining social policy, picking prime ministers and

:16:02.:16:06.

governments in European countries, who if you don't challenge their

:16:07.:16:14.

role, ultimately you will always give in to austerity. Is this what

:16:14.:16:24.
:16:24.:16:29.

the PCS Union leader said, the Trotsky like union leader said?

:16:29.:16:34.

those at the bottom do not pay, there is no way of stopping it...

:16:34.:16:38.

In your socialist analysis of Economics and your rejection of

:16:39.:16:43.

capitalism and the markets, due you think you truly represent the

:16:43.:16:48.

opinions of the 300,000 people in your union -- do you think.

:16:48.:16:55.

accusation of being like Trotsky is bandied around. If I was I would

:16:56.:17:01.

turn your I was, I am a socialist. You were a Socialist Organiser when

:17:01.:17:06.

you were younger and that was a Trotsky like Organisations. In my

:17:06.:17:13.

20s I was but I am here as a socialist... And an anti-

:17:13.:17:16.

capitalist? I think the situation needs to be changed and I think

:17:16.:17:20.

that members support that because if you don't challenge it, you will

:17:20.:17:24.

never defend your pay and pension and job, because the way the system

:17:24.:17:29.

is currently working is to reassure the people at the bottom make the

:17:29.:17:33.

biggest sacrifices. While, if we're honest, those at the top are

:17:33.:17:36.

laughing the way to the bank. The people that caused the problems are

:17:36.:17:41.

still getting big bonuses, they still have their big houses and

:17:41.:17:45.

fabulous pension pots. Public sector workers did nothing to cause

:17:45.:17:50.

it but they are playing with their jobs, livelihoods and salaries.

:17:50.:17:55.

this language of class war turns the British public off. Looking at

:17:55.:17:58.

the figures that have come out in the last week or so, the British

:17:58.:18:03.

public are saying they have much more faith in the Cameron/Osborne

:18:03.:18:07.

economic management and they have in the views they hear from the

:18:07.:18:11.

Labour Party, from Ed Balls and Ed Miliband. There you are way to the

:18:11.:18:16.

left of them as well. It seems your analysis of what is wrong and how

:18:16.:18:21.

to fix it is completely out of whack with the British public's.

:18:21.:18:26.

don't accept that. What I do accept is that it is out of kilter with

:18:26.:18:29.

the main political parties in Britain. When I was being brought

:18:29.:18:33.

up, the difference between the people with the red rosette and the

:18:33.:18:39.

blue rosette was massive. Now in Britain everybody has squeezed to

:18:39.:18:43.

the centre and the differences are far less. The reason Ed Miliband is

:18:43.:18:47.

not very popular is because what people want to hear is a real

:18:47.:18:53.

alternative, not we will cut a bit less slowly because people want to

:18:53.:18:56.

be inspired to that there is a different route possible. That is

:18:56.:19:02.

what I am trying to add the cake. But looking at the parties and

:19:02.:19:07.

polling -- advocate. People in Britain believe that there is a

:19:07.:19:10.

period of austerity and cuts in the size of government and public

:19:10.:19:15.

spending and indeed in things like public sector pensions, that has to

:19:15.:19:20.

be a significant part of any government programme. The BBC poll

:19:20.:19:24.

on November 30th showed over 60% of people supported the strike. On Sky

:19:25.:19:30.

News it was 71%, incredible figures. These figures do not show that

:19:30.:19:35.

people are against this. They do reflect that for two years, every

:19:35.:19:40.

politician have told people the same thing -- has. It has got to

:19:40.:19:44.

happen. What we in the unions are trying to say is that actually

:19:44.:19:47.

there's a different route to get out of these problems, you can grow

:19:47.:19:52.

the economy through investment. There is no doubting you have no

:19:52.:19:56.

time for Ed Miliband, you have called him a disgrace among other

:19:56.:20:01.

things. But there are other union leaders that are out of kilter with

:20:01.:20:06.

your union. The TUC leader, Brendan Barber, said in the summer last

:20:06.:20:10.

year that you were a fundamentalist. When you said to the New Statesman

:20:11.:20:14.

that Arthur Scargill was a leader that you admired, and that a lot of

:20:14.:20:18.

what he did was quite right, a lot of other union leaders looked at

:20:19.:20:23.

what happens to Arthur Scargill, destroying the National Union of

:20:23.:20:27.

Mineworkers and lost with Margaret Thatcher, and thought that is where

:20:27.:20:31.

you are taking the movement now. lived in a South Wales mining

:20:31.:20:36.

community and I was clear that the butchery that took place on our

:20:36.:20:40.

communities, shutting coal mines, was politically motivated and it

:20:40.:20:47.

was wrong. But Arthur Scargill lost? They lost because the rest of

:20:47.:20:51.

the trade union movement in Britain unfortunately did not swing behind

:20:51.:20:57.

them and try to insure that they won. What would be a tragedy is

:20:57.:21:00.

that if you fast-forward to 2012 and the trade union movement

:21:00.:21:05.

repeated the same mistake, and many people decided to accept these

:21:05.:21:11.

attacks on pensions... You call it a mistake, I just look at what is

:21:11.:21:14.

happening right now and the argument on strategy over pensions,

:21:14.:21:18.

and I see you becoming isolated from the rest of the union

:21:18.:21:24.

leadership. It is happening all over again, isn't it? I repeat my

:21:24.:21:29.

point that that remains to be seen. A few union leaders in a room does

:21:29.:21:33.

not represent hundreds of thousands of their members and activists.

:21:33.:21:37.

They have got to convince their members that they are right. What

:21:37.:21:40.

their members will say to them is why did I lose money for something

:21:40.:21:44.

you told me six weeks ago was unacceptable and now you are saying

:21:44.:21:50.

I should accept it? I look forward to that. I find it fascinating that

:21:50.:21:55.

you pitch it as a possible division between union leaders and their

:21:55.:21:59.

memberships, I wonder whether you feel there is a danger of a number

:21:59.:22:04.

of union leaders becoming out of touch with their members. We see

:22:04.:22:08.

union membership declining on the whole but varied very many union

:22:08.:22:13.

leaders are on fat salaries, over �100,000 per year for a bunch of

:22:13.:22:19.

them, your salary is not that either, �86,000 plus a list of add-

:22:20.:22:25.

ons. Are you in touch with your membership? I believe I am. I

:22:25.:22:31.

accept I and a lot more than the average PCAS member. You did say

:22:31.:22:36.

that you would cut your salary to stay in touch with them? I have

:22:36.:22:41.

given �83,000 of my salary back to the unions. You say over more than

:22:41.:22:46.

a decade you have done that but you did take the full salary and you

:22:46.:22:50.

said you wouldn't. Generally, inside your own personal situation,

:22:50.:22:54.

do you think it is wrong for union leaders to be on the money they are

:22:54.:23:04.

on? You can't say UKIP $83,000 -- �83,000 back and then you take the

:23:04.:23:09.

full whack. I am very well paid. I believe I am in touch with the

:23:09.:23:13.

members because I tour the country and I speak to them and I am

:23:13.:23:17.

prepared to articulate their concerns. What the issue is that we

:23:17.:23:21.

have got to focus on is if some union leaders to not have the

:23:21.:23:25.

stomach for the fight, if they don't believe they can win, that is

:23:25.:23:30.

their choice. They have to persuade their members and I will accept the

:23:30.:23:34.

outcome. I am saying that I asked people to go on strike again

:23:34.:23:38.

something and I am therefore not prepared to sign away people's

:23:38.:23:44.

pensions in the next few months. The final thought on the unions'

:23:44.:23:48.

strategy, the biggest unions still financially support the Labour

:23:48.:23:53.

Party. Will they have to end that support given your opinion of where

:23:53.:23:57.

the Labour leadership is failing workers? Ultimately they have got

:23:57.:24:02.

to make their own decision but the view we take at the PCAS is the

:24:02.:24:06.

whole point of supporting the Labour Party is that they should

:24:06.:24:10.

support and speak for the people they represent. Over the last 10 or

:24:10.:24:14.

15 years the Labour Party is not speaking for the bulk of working

:24:14.:24:19.

people and that is why we do not support them. You want those

:24:19.:24:23.

financial ties cut for all the unions? They have to make their

:24:23.:24:27.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS