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established. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Is 2012 to be a year of | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
strikes and worker protests? Well, there's certainly plenty of | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
discontent to go around. UK unemployment is still rising, | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
incomes are being squeezed and pension provision downsized. My | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
guest is Mark Serwotka, leader of one of Britain's biggest public | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
sector trade unions. He says the time has come for workers to stand | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
and fight, but in this age of austerity, do unions have the will | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
:00:50. | :01:01. | ||
and the muscle for a prolonged confrontation? Welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:02. | :01:11. | |
:01:12. | :01:12. | ||
Thank you. He used the 2012 as the year of industrial unrest? That | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
will depend on whether the government carry on making working | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
people those with at least, pay the biggest prize to solve a problem we | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
did not cause. If we get a continuation of pay restraint, tax | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
on pensions, job cuts, then I do think 2012 was see a lot of | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
resistance and I hope that is the case because we believe that is | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
entirely the wrong way for the government to go. We will not get | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
anything else, or will we? The current economic circumstances | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
right around the industrialised world. Inevitably the direction of | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
public policy will be job cuts and tax increases because of the | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
enforced austerity. That is the political choice which is made by | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
governments including a run. Isn't that the reality? We do not think | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
it is. We think the shame of Britain at the moment is that no | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
politicians will argue for a different cause. We think that | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
austerity, cuts and a shrinking of the economy is the completely wrong | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
way to go. We think the government's forecasts, which have | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
been so wrong, one of the most interesting ones is that they have | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
had to borrow �110 billion more than forecast to pay for the cost | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
of rising unemployment. Our philosophy is that it has got to be | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
better for people to be in work doing something productive and | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
paying tax rather than out of work, getting welfare. We will pick away | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
at your political plus a B in a moment. Before that, just in terms | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
of the union's strategy, there is a sense in which might look at what | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
you say about the dispute about pensions in particular, running for | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
the last year or more, and I gathered that you relish | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
confrontation. Would you accept that? No matter, I think that is | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
often portrayed by people looking for somewhere to rather than the | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
truth. I do not relish confrontation. I would much rather | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
have a quiet life and let people get about delivering public | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
services an delivering what they take pride in doing. But when I | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
represent some of the lowest paid people in Britain who have had two | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
years of a pay freeze, now have a tax on pensions and their partners, | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
families and communities are suffering, someone has to stand up | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
and say there is an alternative. In that sense I am very determined. | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
You say someone has to stand up and you quote your father, saying, if | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
you stand and fight you may not win, but if you do not fight she was | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
certainly lose. It has become a mantra for you. But Ed Miliband, | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
part of the labour movement of which you are a part, says, strikes | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
are always the consequence of failure on all sides. Note, all | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
sides. And it is a fate here we cannot afford designation. I do not | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
know how many years Ed Miliband has been that reworking under low paid | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
and difficult conditions. Strikes Sarbi last trip short for working | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
people to defend themselves against an attack. -- are the last resort. | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
Nobody would ever go on strike without a good reason. Why did | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
nurses, teachers, Jobcentre workers, go on strike and lose pay. Because | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
after a year of trying to persuade the government of a different | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
course, they refused. End the strike becomes a last resort. | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
this is where we get me once. There was a national strike involving | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
millions. The government made a few amendments to its pensions | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
proposals and in essence they modified it a little bit. Most of | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
the public sector unions have now agreed to go back into talks under | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
is that of Higgins, Parameters, which the government has set. Your | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
unions has refused. You other one now which is out in the cold. | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
we have done has been consistent. We recognise that millions went on | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
strike because they were forced to work longer, pay more and get less. | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
They still face that. The question I pose... I know that, but there is | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
no solidarity any more. If you look at the biggest unions, from G M B | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
to Unison, representing workers and teachers, they have agreed to go | :06:02. | :06:10. | |
into talks on the basis of a government offer. The PCS had said | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
no and you are out and urine. have agreed to take back their | :06:15. | :06:25. | |
:06:25. | :06:27. | ||
executives. -- you are on your own. if it was right to go on strike six | :06:27. | :06:36. | |
weeks ago, why is it OK now? We asked people to lose pay and go on | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
strike against something that has not altered one bit. Many people | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
say it has all to it, including leading officials and the Labour | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
Party. One says they are a really good step in the right direction | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
and a much better deal for public sector workers. Danny Alexander | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
told Parliament he got everything he wanted without spin be an extra | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
penny. Francis Maude was also happy. And they're right. Every public | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
sector worker will be asked to work longer, pay thousands more and get | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
thousands less. They have not agreed to talk. Each union was | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
asked to sign up to accept the three main principles and we said | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
we are not prepared to do that so the government has thrown a start. | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
The final staging or strategic thinking. When it comes to the | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
fight, your father always said, if you fight you have a chance, if you | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
do not fight you have no chance. The Abbey unions have agreed to | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
talk on the basis. Used said your members will continue strike action | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
free 2012. First of all, I do not believe we are being the union. | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
do not know that. But even if you are on your own, you are prepared | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
to keep on striking 32012. We will talk to our members about what they | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
want to do. I'll recommend they refuse to sign away the pensions | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
they were promised decades ago and give the Government what it wants. | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
Any leader who was to say now that they would not look at the material | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
circumstances would be doing a disservice to their members. | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
Already, unite have rejected the agreement in the civil service. Our | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
colleagues in Northern Ireland have done the same. We will not be on a | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
run. It is equally as unfair and unjust on your again as it is with | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
others will stop is it fair and just at public sector workers get | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
the sort of protected pension that these days, if you look across the | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
private sector, is frankly available to only a tiny percentage | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
to of private sector workers? that there in a society where | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
everybody shares sit and burdens when it comes to difficult economic | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
times? I think it is their eye and there would like the same provision | :09:15. | :09:24. | |
to be applied to the private sector. He will not be go. 11 people in the | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
private sector have a defined benefit scheme. It was 36% five | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
years ago. Private sector employee has closed pension schemes while | :09:35. | :09:43. | |
they did very well themselves. The answer a fait equality of misery is | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
to move the pensions upwards. can characterise it any way you | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
want but the reality is that only one in ten private sector workers | :09:52. | :09:59. | |
have a defined benefit pension. Whereas your members, even under | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
the government's modified reform proposals, would all have a form of | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
defined benefit pension. They have maintain that. If you look at the | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
analysis by pension experts they get this sort of pension that a | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
private sector worker would have to put 30% of their salary into a | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
pension pot for. Your members will have a baby is pension been brought | :10:26. | :10:36. | |
to us. That might a fabulous pension. The average pension is | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
�4,000 per year. We do not represent higher-paid people on | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
six-figure salaries. The point remains that they get a guaranteed | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
pension linked to their salary and only a tiny fraction of workers | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
elsewhere in the UK get that privilege. But the fight accept the | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
logic of what you were putting to me, it is to take the view that she | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
must have a race to the bottom. Pensions are not being taken to the | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
bottom. They're being taken further to the bottom than they are wrapped | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
up. They are asked to work belittle longer, contribute more. The lowest | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
paid or not being asked to contribute more. Independent | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
analysis I have seen suggests it remains an outstandingly good deal | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
in the context of what people on similar salaries getting the | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
private sector. Up they are being asked to work eight she is more in | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
some cases, pay thousands of more even when they have had eight you | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
pay freeze. And there is done to get tens of thousands of pounds | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
less. His conversation is wrong because I do not start, everyone | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
else gets less, so we should. I start from, what does your contract | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
they? What we promised? Independent reports do last that the pensions | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
take account of the fact that we have an 8% contribution. These | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
things did not materialise last year. They are his directly where | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
they are because our package of pay and pensions in comparison with the | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
private sector was broadly... were just as. The thunder mental | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
question is, who ultimately bankrolls the public sector | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
pensions? The taxpayer. Exactly, most of them could not dream of | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
having the same pension guarantees as your members. These taxpayers, | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
this pensions are getting worse, will continue to tolerate paying | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
their taxes for the sort of completely ring-fenced, protected | :12:57. | :13:04. | |
pensions you imagine. Let's be clear. In the private sector we | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
have seen the beginnings of resistance of a tax on their | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
pensions. Balloting has begun. If every taxpayer could choose where | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
every penny went, none of mine would be to nuclear weapons or | :13:18. | :13:28. | |
:13:28. | :13:28. | ||
illegal wars or subsidising massive tax relief, which actually costs | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
more, for pensions in the private sector. That it exclusively benefit | :13:34. | :13:42. | |
the rich as. What I stand for is the working people and the hats and | :13:42. | :13:49. | |
have not. I am articulating that the have-nots deserve not to pay | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
such a massive price for something they did nothing to cause. I am | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
sure you have looked at the EU and members of unions similar to yours | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
in Greece, Portugal and Italy. And Ireland. They are experiencing a | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
loss of earnings, jobs, pensions that far outstrips anything that | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
has happened to British workers. Britain has a serious deficit and | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
debt problem. So we knew look overseas, do you not think, we have | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
to be realistic. This is not just about Britain, this is something | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
happening around the industrialised world and we have to step up to the | :14:32. | :14:42. | |
:14:42. | :14:45. | ||
I have nothing but admiration for those who are facing austerity, we | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
are never the ones who have caused the problem. You say that but in | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
many cases there has been no resistance, in Greece they have | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
accepted a 20% slashing. But they have had so many strikes. But not | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
on the issue that there will be cuts in salaries in the civil | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
service. In Ireland, they have the Croke Park agreement, where the | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
unions and the government worked together on long-term public sector | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
pay freezes, accepting the pensions conditions would changed | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
fundamentally. Unions and governments in the light of crisis | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
have worked together, why can't you? Fund the mentally because I | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
don't agree with co-operating with the medicine that is being wrongly | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
applied and to the wrong patient -- fundamentally. If we accept that | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
what is happening at the moment will carry on we will pay a bigger | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
price. I am advocating someone who will articulate something different. | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
For example, why are we all worshipping at the altar of the | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
markets? They do not care about health services or welfare or how | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
people at the bottom do, they care about making money. Why are they | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
now determining social policy, picking prime ministers and | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
governments in European countries, who if you don't challenge their | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
role, ultimately you will always give in to austerity. Is this what | :16:14. | :16:24. | |
:16:24. | :16:29. | ||
the PCS Union leader said, the Trotsky like union leader said? | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
those at the bottom do not pay, there is no way of stopping it... | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
In your socialist analysis of Economics and your rejection of | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
capitalism and the markets, due you think you truly represent the | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
opinions of the 300,000 people in your union -- do you think. | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
accusation of being like Trotsky is bandied around. If I was I would | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
turn your I was, I am a socialist. You were a Socialist Organiser when | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
you were younger and that was a Trotsky like Organisations. In my | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
20s I was but I am here as a socialist... And an anti- | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
capitalist? I think the situation needs to be changed and I think | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
that members support that because if you don't challenge it, you will | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
never defend your pay and pension and job, because the way the system | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
is currently working is to reassure the people at the bottom make the | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
biggest sacrifices. While, if we're honest, those at the top are | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
laughing the way to the bank. The people that caused the problems are | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
still getting big bonuses, they still have their big houses and | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
fabulous pension pots. Public sector workers did nothing to cause | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
it but they are playing with their jobs, livelihoods and salaries. | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
this language of class war turns the British public off. Looking at | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
the figures that have come out in the last week or so, the British | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
public are saying they have much more faith in the Cameron/Osborne | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
economic management and they have in the views they hear from the | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
Labour Party, from Ed Balls and Ed Miliband. There you are way to the | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
left of them as well. It seems your analysis of what is wrong and how | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
to fix it is completely out of whack with the British public's. | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
don't accept that. What I do accept is that it is out of kilter with | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
the main political parties in Britain. When I was being brought | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
up, the difference between the people with the red rosette and the | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
blue rosette was massive. Now in Britain everybody has squeezed to | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
the centre and the differences are far less. The reason Ed Miliband is | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
not very popular is because what people want to hear is a real | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
alternative, not we will cut a bit less slowly because people want to | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
be inspired to that there is a different route possible. That is | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
what I am trying to add the cake. But looking at the parties and | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
polling -- advocate. People in Britain believe that there is a | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
period of austerity and cuts in the size of government and public | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
spending and indeed in things like public sector pensions, that has to | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
be a significant part of any government programme. The BBC poll | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
on November 30th showed over 60% of people supported the strike. On Sky | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
News it was 71%, incredible figures. These figures do not show that | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
people are against this. They do reflect that for two years, every | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
politician have told people the same thing -- has. It has got to | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
happen. What we in the unions are trying to say is that actually | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
there's a different route to get out of these problems, you can grow | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
the economy through investment. There is no doubting you have no | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
time for Ed Miliband, you have called him a disgrace among other | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
things. But there are other union leaders that are out of kilter with | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
your union. The TUC leader, Brendan Barber, said in the summer last | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
year that you were a fundamentalist. When you said to the New Statesman | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
that Arthur Scargill was a leader that you admired, and that a lot of | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
what he did was quite right, a lot of other union leaders looked at | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
what happens to Arthur Scargill, destroying the National Union of | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
Mineworkers and lost with Margaret Thatcher, and thought that is where | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
you are taking the movement now. lived in a South Wales mining | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
community and I was clear that the butchery that took place on our | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
communities, shutting coal mines, was politically motivated and it | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
was wrong. But Arthur Scargill lost? They lost because the rest of | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
the trade union movement in Britain unfortunately did not swing behind | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
them and try to insure that they won. What would be a tragedy is | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
that if you fast-forward to 2012 and the trade union movement | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
repeated the same mistake, and many people decided to accept these | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
attacks on pensions... You call it a mistake, I just look at what is | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
happening right now and the argument on strategy over pensions, | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
and I see you becoming isolated from the rest of the union | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
leadership. It is happening all over again, isn't it? I repeat my | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
point that that remains to be seen. A few union leaders in a room does | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
not represent hundreds of thousands of their members and activists. | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
They have got to convince their members that they are right. What | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
their members will say to them is why did I lose money for something | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
you told me six weeks ago was unacceptable and now you are saying | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
I should accept it? I look forward to that. I find it fascinating that | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
you pitch it as a possible division between union leaders and their | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
memberships, I wonder whether you feel there is a danger of a number | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
of union leaders becoming out of touch with their members. We see | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
union membership declining on the whole but varied very many union | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
leaders are on fat salaries, over �100,000 per year for a bunch of | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
them, your salary is not that either, �86,000 plus a list of add- | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
ons. Are you in touch with your membership? I believe I am. I | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
accept I and a lot more than the average PCAS member. You did say | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
that you would cut your salary to stay in touch with them? I have | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
given �83,000 of my salary back to the unions. You say over more than | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
a decade you have done that but you did take the full salary and you | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
said you wouldn't. Generally, inside your own personal situation, | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
do you think it is wrong for union leaders to be on the money they are | :22:54. | :23:04. | |
on? You can't say UKIP $83,000 -- �83,000 back and then you take the | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
full whack. I am very well paid. I believe I am in touch with the | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
members because I tour the country and I speak to them and I am | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
prepared to articulate their concerns. What the issue is that we | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
have got to focus on is if some union leaders to not have the | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
stomach for the fight, if they don't believe they can win, that is | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
their choice. They have to persuade their members and I will accept the | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
outcome. I am saying that I asked people to go on strike again | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
something and I am therefore not prepared to sign away people's | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
pensions in the next few months. The final thought on the unions' | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
strategy, the biggest unions still financially support the Labour | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
Party. Will they have to end that support given your opinion of where | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
the Labour leadership is failing workers? Ultimately they have got | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
to make their own decision but the view we take at the PCAS is the | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
whole point of supporting the Labour Party is that they should | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
support and speak for the people they represent. Over the last 10 or | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
15 years the Labour Party is not speaking for the bulk of working | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
people and that is why we do not support them. You want those | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
financial ties cut for all the unions? They have to make their | :24:23. | :24:27. |