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have control of a suburb in Damascus. | :00:01. | :00:10. | |
That's it from me tonight. It is time for HARDtalk. | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
Just how resilient are the foundations of the Nigerian states? | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
We may be about to find out. Africa's most populous country has | :00:20. | :00:26. | |
been rocked by a wave of shootings, orchestrated by Boko Haram, a | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
militant group incense on its -- intent on targeting the people of | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
the country. My guess has been a person trying to reach out to the | :00:41. | :00:51. | |
:00:51. | :00:59. | ||
group. How can Nigeria of for it sectarian conflicts? -- of -- of | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
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Welcome to HARDtalk. T Macro. have seen a series of shocking or | :01:18. | :01:26. | |
violent attacks by Boko Haram inside Nigeria. Why the new | :01:26. | :01:35. | |
incenses the to their campaign of violence? -- intensity. There is | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
:01:45. | :01:48. | ||
the need for us to get to know how we can up by the violence -- up -- | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
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abide. You will have to translate to me the meaning of the full name. | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
:02:12. | :02:14. | ||
It is a group of Islam this -- people dedicated to the promotion | :02:14. | :02:24. | |
:02:24. | :02:27. | ||
of Islam. It is an extreme Muslim group, commonly known as Boko Haram. | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
That translates to say that Western education is forbidden. That gives | :02:33. | :02:42. | |
an idea of the extent see which they are committed to promoting an | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
extreme Muslim of perspective. is due to an extent. In reality, | :02:49. | :02:59. | |
:02:59. | :02:59. | ||
when the group was founded in 2002, it was not seen as a file and grew. | :02:59. | :03:09. | |
:03:09. | :03:26. | ||
-- as a violent group. They dream about Nigeria is an Islamist state. | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
I will repeat my question. As you said, they have been around since | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
2002. In the last few months we have seen the most shocking forms | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
of violence. We have seen Christians killed in charges. Why | :03:46. | :03:55. | |
is this happening now? -- in churches. To understand these | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
bombings we have to know how this came about. Before 2009, the | :04:01. | :04:10. | |
organisation was not violent. I do not share their ideology. The | :04:10. | :04:20. | |
:04:20. | :04:23. | ||
crackdown on the group in 2009 which led to the killings of their | :04:23. | :04:33. | |
:04:33. | :04:39. | ||
leaders pushed the group into exile. They bombed themselves to fight. -- | :04:39. | :04:48. | |
they armed. You are a leading human rights advocate. Are you saying | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
they can only be understood as a reaction to a Nigerian security | :04:53. | :05:03. | |
:05:03. | :05:11. | ||
crackdown? First of all... They are extreme and very Conservative. They | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
have been likened to the Taliban. They have hidden their own | :05:16. | :05:26. | |
:05:26. | :05:29. | ||
philosophies. They follow a 12th- century is a must sculler, who died | :05:29. | :05:39. | |
:05:39. | :05:45. | ||
in a 1328 -- Islamist scholar. They have been campaigning, peacefully. | :05:45. | :05:55. | |
:05:55. | :06:01. | ||
In 2009 violence was directed towards them. The government at | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
that time refused to heed to their calls for justice and they were | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
forced to take up arms. I am struggling to understand how you | :06:13. | :06:22. | |
believe that before this series of City is the incidence in 2009, the | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
group was a peaceful group -- incidents. Any group that demands | :06:29. | :06:39. | |
:06:39. | :06:39. | ||
the establishments of Islamist Sharia law and people who are not | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
like them are secondary citizens, they cannot be regarded as a | :06:43. | :06:53. | |
:06:53. | :06:56. | ||
peaceful organisation? We have many sex been Nigeria... sects in | :06:56. | :07:04. | |
Nigeria. De how many Muslim up Nigeria's share their views? I do | :07:04. | :07:14. | |
:07:14. | :07:22. | ||
not. How many Muslim Nigerians? Many Muslims in Nigeria once a | :07:22. | :07:32. | |
:07:32. | :07:38. | ||
country ruled by a Islamist principles -- once up. -- want. | :07:38. | :07:46. | |
Known be in the country would say they do not like -- Merle one in in | :07:46. | :07:56. | |
:07:56. | :08:07. | ||
the country would say they do -- no one in the country would say they | :08:07. | :08:17. | |
:08:17. | :08:21. | ||
do not like Christians. It is clear attacks on Churches is pushing the | :08:21. | :08:31. | |
:08:31. | :08:36. | ||
country to civil war. Before we get there, you have given me an | :08:36. | :08:46. | |
:08:46. | :08:47. | ||
explanation of the lead up to violence. Is it not clear there is | :08:47. | :08:57. | |
:08:57. | :09:02. | ||
a link between Boko Haram and other outside groups? Issues of terrosim | :09:02. | :09:12. | |
:09:12. | :09:18. | ||
cause concern. Boko Haram's leaders have made it clear that have links | :09:18. | :09:28. | |
:09:28. | :09:29. | ||
with other groups. Amoung them you have people who have fought in | :09:29. | :09:39. | |
:09:39. | :09:46. | ||
Afganistan. So is is not part of a gloabl network? There are links | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
with groups in the Niger and Somali groups? So it is not home-grown | :09:52. | :10:02. | |
:10:02. | :10:26. | ||
anymore? It started home-grown but has become a global concern. If you | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
accept that, why do you insist your govenment should be reaching out to | :10:29. | :10:39. | |
:10:39. | :10:44. | ||
their and have dialogue? With this kind of terrosim, you can either | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
fight it or sit down and talk. We have been fighting them for two | :10:49. | :10:59. | |
:10:59. | :11:06. | ||
years. This has just to the killings of innocent people. People | :11:06. | :11:16. | |
:11:16. | :11:18. | ||
like me believe there needs to be a sit-down. There was terrorism and | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
violence raging for decades. Nigeria sat down with other groups | :11:27. | :11:36. | |
:11:37. | :11:55. | ||
and found solutions. So you want a carrot approach to a group that | :11:55. | :12:05. | |
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have killed 180 civilians and Christians in church? A carrot was | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
also offered to the people in the Niger Delta. If that could have | :12:14. | :12:24. | |
been done in the last two years... Fighting them has not worked. | :12:24. | :12:34. | |
:12:34. | :12:45. | ||
have just changed your mind. One of the reason you have said we should | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
fight them is because of the govenment's policy of appeasing | :12:48. | :12:58. | |
:12:58. | :13:09. | ||
terrorists? What I wrote, where things kept changing, now it is | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
clear the insurgency cannot be crushed by the use of force. Is it | :13:13. | :13:23. | |
:13:23. | :13:30. | ||
clear? Some people say the govenment was never serious about a | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
:13:40. | :13:42. | ||
real crackdown. You could say a real commitment could eliminate | :13:42. | :13:52. | |
:13:52. | :14:05. | ||
this problem. In one area of Nigeria they are fighting the group. | :14:05. | :14:15. | |
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But the attacks have increased in ferocity. If Boko Haram attacks | :14:15. | :14:25. | |
:14:25. | :14:42. | ||
churches, you have Muslim leaders There was a policy of giving money | :14:42. | :14:52. | |
:14:52. | :14:53. | ||
to militants. I can say, they also bombed, killed, vandalised. | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
could discuss this for a long time. There are many differences, but | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
that is not the focus of this interview. You have reached out to | :15:06. | :15:16. | |
:15:16. | :15:20. | ||
Boko Haram, you have been to their northern place, you have spoken to | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
people who were related to one of the leaders, in an effort to | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
establish dialogue. I would put it to you that your effort failed. | :15:31. | :15:40. | |
has not failed. With respect, people know that two days after you | :15:40. | :15:50. | |
negotiated with them, Boko Haram then murdered a co-worker. He was | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
not killed by them. I reached out to the group and asked them how and | :15:57. | :16:07. | |
:16:07. | :16:12. | ||
why. They believe that he was murdered by a Boko Haram. Boko | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
Haram came out to the media and denied killing him. But nobody | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
believes that. Where would you believe it? They owned up to what | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
they do it. But these are murderers of innocence. Why should we believe | :16:30. | :16:40. | |
them? They are, but in clear terms. He was not killed by the group | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
because they came out openly and denied it. They have never denied | :16:46. | :16:55. | |
water they have done. If you are so confident of the word of Boko Haram, | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
the degree that you can trust them to stick to their word, what is the | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
deal that the Nigerian government should be offering these people? | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
all the attacks they have launched, it came with a warning. No it did | :17:11. | :17:21. | |
not. How can you say that? Hold on. How can you say that the people in | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
that church who were murdered at Christmas had a warning? That meet | :17:27. | :17:37. | |
:17:37. | :17:37. | ||
telly it. A warning by a terrorist organisation. You can take a major | :17:37. | :17:47. | |
efforts to protect the citizens, or you except the demands. The | :17:47. | :17:55. | |
government did not do either of those things. Are you suggesting | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
that these Christians were going to be murdered and the government | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
simply stood by and just watch it happen? The leader of the Boko | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
Haram issued threats to the police and the government. They said if | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
their members are not released, they would take action. The | :18:16. | :18:26. | |
government did not take that threat seriously. We are dealing with a | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
government that does not take threats or advice from people like | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
me. We need to sit down with this group so the problem can end. | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
Earlier you mentioned the prospect of civil war. I have been reading | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
interviews with people from the Norse who are living in the south | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
end feel threatened because of retaliation against more than us, I | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
have also read many interviews with southerners, Christians living in | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
the north who feel threatened and have basically been told they have | :18:57. | :19:06. | |
three days to get out of town. On both sides of the division there is | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
feeling that they are not fundamentally threatened. How real | :19:11. | :19:20. | |
is the prospect of mass sectarian violence? Heat is not dependent on | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
the attacks by Boko Haram. It is dependent on the ability of the | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
leadership in the country to offer leadership in times of crisis. Also | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
the ability of Muslim leaders to come out openly and to make a clear | :19:36. | :19:44. | |
opposition. It is also dependent on Christian leaders and their ability | :19:44. | :19:53. | |
to exercise restraint. The violence that is going on now is violence | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
between Muslims and Christians, but the Boko Haram have made it clear | :19:57. | :20:07. | |
:20:07. | :20:08. | ||
they are going to fight. They attacked churches. People like me | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
are trying to bring that to eight - - to an end. President Goodluck | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
Jonathan suggested the country was in a more serious situation then it | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
was at the start of the civil war in the '60s. Do you agree? | :20:27. | :20:35. | |
should not lament, he should offer a leadership. When he laments, | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
there is no solution. It is true that Nigeria is in a perilous | :20:41. | :20:48. | |
situation. But what we need now is a leader who will inspire and | :20:48. | :20:58. | |
:20:58. | :20:59. | ||
provide confidence for the people. He should assure the people of the | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
government's intention to protect their lives. You said it is time | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
for Muslim leaders... You're not a religious leader, you were a | :21:09. | :21:16. | |
secular leader, but I would put you in that category. Very well | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
respected Muslims in Nigeria who have a voice in their community. | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
You said it was time for them to ensure that the message is Muslims | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
want a unified Nigeria. But you said, many Muslims do what Sharia | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
law across the nation. They do want to leave in an Islamic Nigeria. How | :21:37. | :21:46. | |
do those statements go together? Muslims in northern Nigeria warned | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
that a well for themselves. When I say that Muslims should come out | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
and make a queue position of their desire, I need it clear that | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
Christian leaders must also exercised restraint. Some of them | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
are a making it difficult. Data suggesting that what Boko Haram | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
have done is reflective of the wishes of Muslims. It is not true. | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
I must also refer to another grim reality of Nigeria. Protest over | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
the government's attempt to hike the price of fuel. It sought troops | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
on the streets of Nigeria's major cities, violence between security | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
forces and workers and demonstrators. It made me wonder | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
how stable the foundations of Nigerian democracy are. What do you | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
think the answer is? Nigerian democracy has been through | :22:53. | :23:02. | |
troubling times. But all the time we have been able to recover from | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
shocks and vibrations. What is happening today when it comes to | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
the protest, these are all realities of democracy. In Africa, | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
there has never been a country he has such a vibrant civil society | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
like Nigeria. You see hundreds of thousands of the street demanding | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
change. The very fact that you can see people protesting his prove | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
that the democracy is working. applies to the economic troubles | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
and also the sectarian issues. You think that in the end the | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
democratic government of Nigeria, and some would argue it is not, is | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
capable of meeting the challenge? They have no option. Why were | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
people in the street? The government decided to withdraw | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
subsidy, which the common people believed was an attempt to ruin | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
their lives and impoverish them. Despite all economic reasons given | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
by the government, the people do not believe it. I do not think that | :24:16. | :24:23. | |
protests and civil disobedience can bring down the democracy. In a word, | :24:23. | :24:31. |