Browse content similar to Vladimir Yakunin - President, Russian Railways. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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HARDtalk. Barring a miracle, Vladimir Putin | 0:00:04 | 0:00:14 | |
will soon be back where he thinks he belongs, inside the Kremlin, as | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
Russia's President. Protests about the failings of Russian democracy | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
are getting louder as Moscow's foreign policy runs the risk of | 0:00:21 | 0:00:28 | |
isolation. Russia's economy is highly dependent on high energy | 0:00:28 | 0:00:34 | |
prices. My guess today is Vladimir Yakunin, the owner of Russian | 0:00:34 | 0:00:44 | |
0:00:44 | 0:00:55 | ||
Railways. It is Putinism taking Russia down the wrong track? | 0:00:55 | 0:01:02 | |
Vladimir Yakunin, a welcome too HARDtalk. Good morning. -- Welcome | 0:01:02 | 0:01:09 | |
to HARDtalk. Would you agree that Russian people are hoping for a | 0:01:09 | 0:01:16 | |
change, political change and social change? They're hoping for a new | 0:01:16 | 0:01:20 | |
life, new dimensions. I hope we will start again. Start again, an | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
interesting thought. In that context, it seems strange that | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
Vladimir Putin would be trying to convince the Russian people it is | 0:01:27 | 0:01:33 | |
good to go back - back to a Putin presidency. We had eight years or | 0:01:33 | 0:01:37 | |
more of him in presidency already, why would a Russia, if it is | 0:01:37 | 0:01:41 | |
desperate for change, invite him back? Listen, this is not the | 0:01:41 | 0:01:46 | |
problem of the leader, that is the problem of the policy. If you're | 0:01:46 | 0:01:51 | |
talking about policy, nowadays with the turmoil in the economic and | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
political situation, it is essential to understand what the | 0:01:54 | 0:02:00 | |
model of today is. You are here in the West. You are thinking about | 0:02:00 | 0:02:07 | |
that. Sure, but I come back to this idea - if change is so important, | 0:02:07 | 0:02:11 | |
is Putin the answer? Just quoting from the words of the deputy prime | 0:02:11 | 0:02:15 | |
minister the other day, he said "the roots of many of Russia's | 0:02:15 | 0:02:20 | |
economic problems are in the status quo of the political system". That | 0:02:20 | 0:02:27 | |
is Putinism that is the problem. This is not Putinism. That is not a | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
problem of nowadays's political system. There has been responsible | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
for it for the last 12 years? Correct, that is not just one | 0:02:34 | 0:02:39 | |
person, that is the society, that his society's expectations, and | 0:02:39 | 0:02:44 | |
that is the way of the policies, internal and external. You are | 0:02:44 | 0:02:49 | |
absolutely correct that that should change. That is exactly what Putin | 0:02:49 | 0:02:53 | |
published in his three new articles. I don't mean to be rude, but is it | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
not the case that there are people around Putin, and you may be one of | 0:02:57 | 0:03:01 | |
them, who have known him for an awful long time and perhaps work in | 0:03:01 | 0:03:05 | |
a security agencies with him, I know you were in the KGB, at least | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
the Russian press tells me you were, where are you all weren't you? | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
Listen, I never discuss my civil services. That is my principles. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:17 | |
Not because there is something to hide, but this is my principles. I | 0:03:17 | 0:03:23 | |
never discuss my youth and I never discuss my Civil Service as a | 0:03:23 | 0:03:29 | |
grown-up. OK, I will leave it at that. The fact is, whether or not | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
you were in the KGB, there are a whole number of people close to | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
Putin who used to beat in the security apparatus, now they are at | 0:03:36 | 0:03:41 | |
the top of big business, the top of the government, the bureaucracy, it | 0:03:41 | 0:03:47 | |
looks, too many Russians, let alone outsiders, but this is a Kabyle of | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
deeply conservative authoritarian people. Listen, I cannot agree with | 0:03:51 | 0:03:59 | |
that. Whether they were in the KGB doesn't matter. It was well | 0:03:59 | 0:04:04 | |
accepted in the world at that time that the school, the education of | 0:04:04 | 0:04:09 | |
those people, was of the highest level. It is not only, you know, | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
political brainwashing, it was also preparing the people for that kind | 0:04:14 | 0:04:20 | |
of responsibility. And it takes it to a high and sophisticated level | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
in the exercise of authoritarian repressive power. Many of them had | 0:04:24 | 0:04:29 | |
nothing to do with the repressive apparatus, as you call it. The | 0:04:29 | 0:04:35 | |
entire system, as we say, is an authoritarian, repressive system. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:42 | |
Those were the kind of management beginning of that story. Now it has | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
changed greatly. Talking of change, what really has changed is the | 0:04:46 | 0:04:50 | |
Russian people's willingness to accept this. If you look at the | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
polls, and in a country like Russia, they are not reliable, completely... | 0:04:55 | 0:05:00 | |
Tell me a country where they are completely reliable? Fear point. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
What they are telling us make is that the Russian people are no | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
longer prepared to accept this bargain with Putin and the people | 0:05:07 | 0:05:12 | |
around him, that they will give them stability and economic growth | 0:05:12 | 0:05:17 | |
and you give us loyalty, support and don't ask questions. That is | 0:05:17 | 0:05:22 | |
breaking down. Looking at the most recent polls, Putin is standing at | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
40-45%, where he used to be at 70- 80%. Again, we are talking about | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
polls, not the exact figures, which we accepted that is not true | 0:05:30 | 0:05:37 | |
anywhere. That is the tendency, you are correct. I do except the | 0:05:37 | 0:05:46 | |
bargain between society and power. The civil organism of the society | 0:05:46 | 0:05:54 | |
is... That is what the people are showing - the mentality of the | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
people, they want democracy. That is the feeling of the people - they | 0:05:58 | 0:06:02 | |
can consider democracy differently. The people, they would like to say | 0:06:02 | 0:06:07 | |
their word about the policy. You know, you cannot judge by a crowd | 0:06:07 | 0:06:12 | |
of 30,000. Or 20,000. I will tell you what you can judge by, perhaps. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
Maybe not the size of the crowd, but what happens to the crowd and | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
the leaders of the opposition. What we have seen in the last few months | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
is that leaders of the crowd of protesters get arrested. Their | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
telephones are barred. That internet access is hacked. We have | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
seen it with a whole host of people were trying to speak out. For you, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
as a close Putin ally, someone who knows him well, do you watch what | 0:06:36 | 0:06:43 | |
is happening and think "this is wrong"? My future president is | 0:06:43 | 0:06:48 | |
taking this country in the wrong direction. Firstly, when we are | 0:06:48 | 0:06:54 | |
talking about opposition leaders, this is not correct. When we are | 0:06:54 | 0:06:59 | |
talking about the actual leaders of so-called opposition, that was not | 0:06:59 | 0:07:04 | |
them within the crowd, that was other people. People living in the | 0:07:04 | 0:07:12 | |
internet. Young people. This is one point. Second point, listen, | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
everywhere the state is trying to protect itself. Everywhere, but you | 0:07:17 | 0:07:22 | |
are absolutely correct - you know... Hang on, I can't accept that. You | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
are suggesting what the Russian state does in terms of locking up | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
protesters is what happens in a democracy such as the UK or the | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
United States, of course, it is not what happens at all. Yes, but look | 0:07:33 | 0:07:38 | |
what happens to the people creating the movement on Wall Street, just | 0:07:38 | 0:07:42 | |
several weeks ago. The police was | 0:07:42 | 0:07:48 | |
considered democratic. You really think there is a direct parallel | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
between the weight in which the Occupied movement is treated and | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
the way in which a whole host of opposition leaders have been locked | 0:07:55 | 0:08:02 | |
up, harassed, but by the state apparatus? I don't know about the | 0:08:02 | 0:08:08 | |
bugging, I don't know about harassment, but I know that when a | 0:08:08 | 0:08:15 | |
crowd at met for the first time on were strictly warned to be polite, | 0:08:15 | 0:08:21 | |
to be very cautious and not to ruin the process. I suppose this is a | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
good sign. You run one of the biggest state-owned corporations, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
businesses, in the entire scope of Russia. You have a million people, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
pretty much, in your workforce. You have 20,000 stations. A vast | 0:08:35 | 0:08:40 | |
apparatus. Would you accept that when people take to the streets | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
these days they are protesting about the lack of political freedom | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
and also about rampant corruption and the profound failings in the | 0:08:47 | 0:08:52 | |
Russian economic system? I suppose they are protesting more against | 0:08:52 | 0:08:58 | |
the way of life. The feeling of injustice, which now possesses not | 0:08:58 | 0:09:04 | |
only the Russian community but the world, I suppose. People are | 0:09:04 | 0:09:08 | |
already more and more educated through the internet, through their | 0:09:08 | 0:09:12 | |
access to education. They would like to see their country | 0:09:12 | 0:09:17 | |
developing in order to service their needs. That is true. Here are | 0:09:17 | 0:09:24 | |
the words of a presidential aide, he said just the other day - | 0:09:24 | 0:09:32 | |
"Russia's main problems are at excessive interference of the | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
government". You run a state owned railway. This is not just a | 0:09:36 | 0:09:39 | |
question of interference, the state still dominates the economy, | 0:09:39 | 0:09:44 | |
doesn't it? Listen, this is true. You know, if you look at the | 0:09:44 | 0:09:50 | |
economic data of the United States, the amount of the state money in | 0:09:50 | 0:09:57 | |
the economy exceeds 50%. This is not the question - whether of the | 0:09:57 | 0:10:02 | |
state is using public monies to support some industries, not only | 0:10:02 | 0:10:08 | |
the military complex. The question is - how is it done? Don't mix the | 0:10:08 | 0:10:12 | |
intervention of one particular or several particular persons on the | 0:10:12 | 0:10:18 | |
political level into, say, my management work. That is not right. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:23 | |
I am running a state-owned company, we have a board of directors, that | 0:10:23 | 0:10:29 | |
is in accordance with Russian law. 100% of the shares belonged to the | 0:10:29 | 0:10:34 | |
state. No-one can dictate to me what to do but the government when | 0:10:34 | 0:10:43 | |
I suppose this is right. Please, hang on a moment. Explain how your | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
business works. Tell me in what ways it really has changed since | 0:10:46 | 0:10:56 | |
the Soviet period? For example, just in the last year we sold | 0:10:56 | 0:11:02 | |
shares, a complete package, 75% of the biggest owners of the rolling | 0:11:02 | 0:11:12 | |
0:11:12 | 0:11:15 | ||
stock. We got from this selling more than 140 billion roubles. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
dare say there are people who can make a profit out of being | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
associated by your business, but in the end it is still owned by the | 0:11:21 | 0:11:25 | |
state and employs pretty much a million people. It not only runs | 0:11:25 | 0:11:30 | |
railways, you also run clinics, hospitals, schools, you have urine | 0:11:30 | 0:11:36 | |
security forces, I think you even had a riding school. -- you have | 0:11:36 | 0:11:42 | |
your own that security forces. An institution like yours, frankly, | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
looks very much like it did 30 years ago. This is a completely | 0:11:45 | 0:11:51 | |
wrong picture. Firstly, we are working not like the Ministry. I am | 0:11:52 | 0:11:58 | |
in the business here, competing with my challengers like private | 0:11:58 | 0:12:05 | |
operators of the rolling stock. There are some businesses which are | 0:12:05 | 0:12:09 | |
not the essential businesses of the company. When you're talking about | 0:12:09 | 0:12:13 | |
hospitals, kindergartens, that is not because we would like to run | 0:12:13 | 0:12:18 | |
them, but, unfortunately... No, it is not, it is because it is a | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
folder of, a left over from the Soviet period. I'm asking whether | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
Russia has really changed? short answer is, to my mind, | 0:12:27 | 0:12:33 | |
greatly. During the period of the last 12 years, yes, greatly. We | 0:12:33 | 0:12:37 | |
still have a lot of things to do, because you know there are two met | 0:12:37 | 0:12:43 | |
sides fighting. One side is saying "everything should be privatised, | 0:12:43 | 0:12:48 | |
the state should withdraw from any influence in Social Affairs". The | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
other side is saying "no, there is only the state that should run | 0:12:52 | 0:12:57 | |
everything properly in order to service the needs of the people". | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
This is wrong completely, two policies. The truth is in the | 0:13:00 | 0:13:06 | |
middle. During 2008, when the banks crackdown in the most liberal | 0:13:07 | 0:13:11 | |
countries like the United States of America or Great Britain, who was | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
behind them? The state. How can someone say that the state should | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
completely withdraw from the economic Planning specifically in | 0:13:19 | 0:13:23 | |
the developing economies? You talk about this middle ground that works | 0:13:23 | 0:13:27 | |
- in Russia it doesn't work. Let's compare you with the other nations | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
we talk about, the emerging superpowers of the world economy - | 0:13:31 | 0:13:38 | |
China, the GDP has increased 5.3 ti ti1992. India, 3.5 times. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:45 | |
Russia, frankly, Russia reached its 1990 GDP level only in 2007, while | 0:13:45 | 0:13:50 | |
China and India have been rushing ahead with enormous growth. Russia, | 0:13:50 | 0:13:58 | |
in many ways, apart from oil and gas have stagnated. That is the | 0:13:58 | 0:14:03 | |
truth. That is the truth, and I suppose we have been rooted to the | 0:14:03 | 0:14:08 | |
essence of this economy. One can see that they privatised at the | 0:14:08 | 0:14:13 | |
middle level and small businesses. They never privatised the core of | 0:14:13 | 0:14:20 | |
their economies. You know, in Russia, the status off the troika, | 0:14:20 | 0:14:26 | |
they decided to privatise everything. You are saying that not | 0:14:26 | 0:14:29 | |
enough state is the problem in Russia? At that time, it wasn't the | 0:14:29 | 0:14:37 | |
state, it was the wrong model of getting market economy. That was | 0:14:37 | 0:14:43 | |
the problem. Privatisation was not - to privatise in order to boost | 0:14:44 | 0:14:53 | |
0:14:54 | 0:14:56 | ||
In China, foreign business goes into that kind she believing Bacon | 0:14:56 | 0:15:00 | |
achieved what they want to without having their profits creamed off or | 0:15:00 | 0:15:07 | |
a rules change. In Russia, corruption is their grandparents | 0:15:07 | 0:15:14 | |
yacht foreign direct investment figures have been disastrous. -- is | 0:15:14 | 0:15:24 | |
0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | ||
so rampant Europe. A matter big- company can only take 10% out of | 0:15:28 | 0:15:33 | |
the pocket. All money should be invested there. In Russia it is | 0:15:33 | 0:15:42 | |
free. You can do whatever you do with the money you owe owner. -- | 0:15:42 | 0:15:52 | |
0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | ||
your own. You are correct. Corruption is one of the Maze | 0:15:55 | 0:16:02 | |
driven thought things about the economy. -- must be dreadful. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:07 | |
Vladimir Putin has are not fixed it. Why does he deserve another term in | 0:16:07 | 0:16:17 | |
0:16:17 | 0:16:18 | ||
office? Why has the not fix it? has bloomed over your country over | 0:16:18 | 0:16:28 | |
0:16:28 | 0:16:29 | ||
the last 12 years. Russia is rated as 140 said out of 180 nations in | 0:16:29 | 0:16:33 | |
terms of corruption. It is by far the most corrupt industrialised | 0:16:33 | 0:16:39 | |
nation in the world. I do not trust all these ratings. You just told me | 0:16:40 | 0:16:48 | |
it yourself there is a huge problem. Yes. But a place Russia so it Blair | 0:16:48 | 0:16:56 | |
on the bottom is not a correct. That is not true. -- so close. Bank | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
managers are running out of the windows because of the disaster of | 0:17:00 | 0:17:08 | |
2008. That was also corruption. We need to have civil institutions to | 0:17:08 | 0:17:13 | |
control the power. That is true. Just to blame Russia as the only | 0:17:13 | 0:17:21 | |
corrupt country is the fate of. is not just outsiders looking in. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:28 | |
It is rations themselves. There is a fascinating new website which | 0:17:28 | 0:17:33 | |
gives examples of corrupt practices in public tendering. Over the last | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
year, they have come up with hundreds of millions of dollars | 0:17:37 | 0:17:41 | |
worth of examples where the Russian state and public tenders have been | 0:17:41 | 0:17:47 | |
issued in a fundamentally corrupt away. This is rations Dorking. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:54 | |
There are all sorts of different rations. -- rations are talking. | 0:17:54 | 0:18:04 | |
0:18:04 | 0:18:08 | ||
The only proof of misty is the court decisions. Nobody bears any | 0:18:08 | 0:18:13 | |
responsibility in Russia. They can publish whatever they wonder with | 0:18:13 | 0:18:21 | |
no responsibility. Do you think that is free information? In Russia, | 0:18:21 | 0:18:26 | |
we know, there have been many examples of the journalists were | 0:18:26 | 0:18:30 | |
hide-and-seek ensued the malpractice of business people and | 0:18:30 | 0:18:35 | |
politicians and they have ended up dead. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
Unfortunately, some facts are there. You do not know through is | 0:18:40 | 0:18:47 | |
responsible. Through it you think it might be responsible for the | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
killings of independent journalists? Sometimes it is | 0:18:50 | 0:18:59 | |
powerful criminal groups. There are links with caucuses. Some of them. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:09 | |
0:19:09 | 0:19:11 | ||
Link to powerful players in businesses and politics? I am | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
talking about how well people. Those who got their wealth not in a | 0:19:16 | 0:19:23 | |
proper or acceptable way. Let's look at a wider horizon. You are in | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
London to lecture on what you hope is the modernisation of Russia to a | 0:19:27 | 0:19:33 | |
British audience. Russia is looking increasingly isolated. Eight looks | 0:19:33 | 0:19:43 | |
0:19:43 | 0:19:47 | ||
like they are standing against the tide of history. Do you worry how | 0:19:47 | 0:19:54 | |
back please sit an international audience? We are tackling this | 0:19:54 | 0:20:03 | |
matter professionally. That is my strong belief that the future lies | 0:20:03 | 0:20:10 | |
in greater co-operation between Russia and Europe. Exchanging, not | 0:20:10 | 0:20:20 | |
0:20:20 | 0:20:21 | ||
only goods, but people exchanging ideas and speaking out. I felt | 0:20:21 | 0:20:28 | |
insulted when it was broadcasted the killings of an elderly person | 0:20:28 | 0:20:38 | |
0:20:38 | 0:20:40 | ||
who used to be Saddam has sent. I am not fond of his person. It is | 0:20:40 | 0:20:46 | |
disgusting have the matter was tackled. You are offended by it but | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
the Americans did in Iraq. There and many Russians who share your | 0:20:50 | 0:20:56 | |
opinion. But right now, do you believe it is riots or ethical for | 0:20:56 | 0:21:00 | |
the Russians insist they will continue to sell arms to the Syrian | 0:21:00 | 0:21:10 | |
0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | ||
government led by a share -- President Assad? The have problems | 0:21:12 | 0:21:16 | |
when international sanctions are being imposed on Iranians? | 0:21:16 | 0:21:26 | |
sanctions are limited. I do not think anybody can blame Russia | 0:21:26 | 0:21:35 | |
Railways for this. What we do, we are developing construction. It the | 0:21:35 | 0:21:43 | |
end it decided to close Iran, it could be a great mistake because no | 0:21:43 | 0:21:49 | |
sanctions can deal with the problems other nuclear disarmament | 0:21:49 | 0:21:59 | |
0:21:59 | 0:21:59 | ||
spot security. What about answer to Syria? DC in a sense and is the | 0:21:59 | 0:22:07 | |
right thing for Russia to do to sell weapons? -- do you think it | 0:22:07 | 0:22:13 | |
makes sense. We need to see what is going on on the other side. Where | 0:22:13 | 0:22:20 | |
do all the rebels get their weapons? A final thought. You | 0:22:20 | 0:22:27 | |
identified itself a very closely as a Russian nationalist. A national | 0:22:27 | 0:22:37 | |
tradition. I wonder where pick him up over the years have said, the | 0:22:37 | 0:22:46 | |
collapse of the Soviet Union was a major disaster. do you share those | 0:22:46 | 0:22:55 | |
feelings? I do share. When an empire was demolished in a very | 0:22:55 | 0:23:05 | |
0:23:05 | 0:23:07 | ||
short route of time, been this a very tiny glow, it was not like a | 0:23:07 | 0:23:17 | |
0:23:17 | 0:23:18 | ||
blow of the wind. Eight influences civilisation's. It influences | 0:23:18 | 0:23:28 | |
0:23:28 | 0:23:34 | ||
society. It is interesting you say that. With the election approaching, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:39 | |
with the Russian people rather have a genuine democracy and economic | 0:23:39 | 0:23:45 | |
modernisation rather then all of this talk of the Soviet Union and | 0:23:45 | 0:23:52 | |
Russia's great past and tradition? One should look forward. But I do | 0:23:52 | 0:24:00 | |
not believe in genuine democracy. There are some aspects of democracy | 0:24:00 | 0:24:08 |