John Fahey - President, World Anti-Doping Agency HARDtalk


John Fahey - President, World Anti-Doping Agency

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You're watching BBC News. The headlines: Fabio Capello has

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resigned as manager of the England football teams. He quit following a

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meeting at Wembley. He will leave the post with the immediate effect.

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He was angered by the FA's decision to strip John Terry of the

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captaincy. The man widely tipped to be the

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next manager, Harry Redknapp, has been cleared of tax evasion charges.

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He says the case should never have been taken to trial. Milan Mandaric

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was also acquitted. The residents of the Syrian city of

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Homs say they have been hit by the worst violence so far. Activists

:01:20.:01:30.
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say as many as 40 people have been killed so far today.

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15 more people including Steve Coogan, whose phones were hacked by

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the News of the World have settled their claims with News

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International. Mr Coogan said he took the action to expose the way

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parts of the media has been acting. The chief executive of the Royal

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Bank of Scotland said he decided to pass up his bonus because of damage

:01:59.:02:09.
:02:09.:02:18.

it is causing to the bank. What does it take for us to enjoy

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watching sport? It is more than just being impressed by athletic

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ability. It has to be our belief, our knowledge that competitors are

:02:27.:02:33.

not cheating. That the outcome of the match has not been fixed. That

:02:33.:02:37.

they are not taking illegal, performance-enhancing drugs.

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Without that certainty that the competition is there we might as

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well all go home. At the home of the IOC and a range of other

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sporting bodies I have come to talk to a man that embodies the fight

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for fairness. John Fahey, the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency.

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Can he reassure us that it is a Welcome to HARDtalk. Let me take

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you back to something that you said just after he became President of

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the World Anti-Doping Agency. You said that the fight against drugs

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is more than likely never going to be one, do you stand by that?

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As each year goes past in that race that we get closer to the finishing

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line but we are never going to make it. The simple fact is that human

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nature gets in the road. Fortune, fame that might flow from any app -

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- any athlete is always likely to outweigh other considerations.

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There will always be those who attempt to cheat and as a result of

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that there will always be the need for an organisation to try to stamp

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out the problem. What makes you think that you are getting closer

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to cleaning up sport? We are far more intelligent with the way we

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deal with it. In the early days we were focused on as many Tests as

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possible. We have recognised that it is about quality and not

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quantity. We need to target those we are taking samples off. We need

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to incorporate with law enforcement agencies and share information with

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them. We do so with some knowledge and that makes us more effective

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and in my view, it makes us, brings us closer to the finishing line

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that I know we will never get to. The next time you will be in the

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news is next month in a court fight with the national Olympics

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Association, the British Olympic Association because you are

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:05:31.:05:33.

challenging the lifelong ban on drug... The code allows us to

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assess and make a decision on the compliance of the signatories. That

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particular decision was made by the Foundation board in November of

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last year. In the lead-up to that matter are being discussed by the

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board there was initially a decision by the Court of

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Arbitration of sport in respect to the rule of the International

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Olympic Committee. Their rule stated that they have the right to

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prevent anybody attending an Olympics if that person had a

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suspension of six months or more. In the next Olympics they were

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disqualified from attending. The court through that out and said it

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is an additional sanction. As a result of that week asked the

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British Olympic Association to examine their by-law which said

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that you cannot be selected in to a team that will allow you to attend

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the Olympics with a six-month suspension for the rest of your

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life. We were told ultimately in a very different sort of way through

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speeches and media statements that the British Olympic Association was

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going to stand by the by-law. The foundation would have to consider

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whether or not they were compliant with the rules and the decision was

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quite clear on legal advice. A No 1 was pushing you to take these.

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There are not British athletes queuing up to challenge this in

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court. Every two years we have to give a report to our stakeholders

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:07:23.:07:23.

on the compliance of our signature use. -- our signatories. They were

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non-compliant on the rules, the BOA. It looks from the outside as if it

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is the anti-doping agency being soft on drugs cheats. This quote

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from a gold winning British decathlete. He said he would like

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to see you on the side of people who do not cheat rather than

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minimum sentences for people who do. Why didn't he say that when we

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reviewed the code in 2007? They had that opportunity and they can get

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it again now because we are undertaking a further review that

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was signalled long before this review came up that would allow us

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to adopt whatever the stakeholders the signatories decide... For what

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is your personal view? It does not matter. It does. I am the President

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of an organisation that is the custodian of a coroner. That code

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currently serves sanctions for two years. Indeed and I can see why you

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want people to abide by that code. I am more than interested in what

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comes out of the process that has now started. We will, over the next

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18 months or so, seek some missions, look out submissions from all of

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our signatories. We will go through a process of consultation and I

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will be interested to see what the penalty is, the sanction that the

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sporting movement, the governments of the world believe is appropriate

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and I will support what that outcome might be. I understand and

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respect that but I am asking what you personally think given that you

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wonder figurehead in the fight against drugs cheats. It is

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irrelevant what I personally think. Not as far as an awful lot of

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people think. I was the head of a government in the state of New

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South Wales and I had no right to way personal abuse. The code has

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been adopted by our signatories, our board members and that contains

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the sanction of two years until that changes. If there is a wish to

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change that it will get my support. I understand that you are bound by

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the rules but your approach sounds cautious, bureaucratic rather than

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you saying, it troubles me about drugs cheats might think they could

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get away with a two-year ban. You are saying, well, whatever the

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people who pay my wages decide I will carry up their balls. For the

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-- for starters I do not get wages. Cheats in sport get away with it

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and that troubles me. But the sanction is another issue. That

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sanction is held, the sporting world has been held in good stead

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for a number of years. If I can go to the British Olympic

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Association's by-law, three people in 20 years had been caught by the

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by-law. 28 others were exonerated on appeal. I wonder, I ask how

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effective that might have been. I don't mind. If they want to have a

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tough law, we are saying that the court has determined it is an

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additional sanction and therefore we take no other view, took no

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other view other than to say that your rules do not comply with the

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anti-doping code that you are a signatory to us. Let me put it

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:11:34.:11:39.

another way. This stems from a US sprinter challenging competing at

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the Olympics after he was suspended for drugs offences. What will it

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make you feel like watching him compete in London? He has served

:11:49.:11:56.

his time and the rules say that he can now compete next time. You feel

:11:56.:12:02.

fine about him competing? If he is selected. I have no difficulties of

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him competing on the basis that he has served a sanction, he was found

:12:07.:12:17.
:12:17.:12:18.

to have a prohibited substance. He has a ride to get on with his life.

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If that involves representing the United States in London I have no

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difficulty with that. Do you have specific concerns about the London

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Olympics? Nothing specific. There are specific sports that concern

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you? No, no. I think it is fair to say they are right sheets in all

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sports. If you look at where we are out in 2012 as opposed to 2004,

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2008, there is a far more effective anti-doping programme in place now,

:12:56.:13:01.

far more intelligent approach in catching cheats and I have little

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doubt that those responsible for the programme, the IOC, will put

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together a comprehensive programme that will deal with not only the

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lead-up to the Olympics, the weeks and the months leading up, the out

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of competition training, testing and samples and also during the

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Games, random testing and testing of the Met all events. What do you

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feel when you hear about cases such as Alberto Contador, the Tour de

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France winner who was hoping to compete at the Olympics and will

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not be able to because it has been found that yes, he did have the

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banned substance clenbuterol. He is going to serve eight two-year ban.

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Do you think, fantastic, we caught another one or do you think I wish

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cycling were cleaner than it were? My reaction is to say, this is a

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good day for all the clean athletes of the world. A court has made a

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decision. A high-profile athlete is a cheat. It reassures the clean

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athletes, cyclists that the unfair advantage that may come from cheats

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is being eliminated, may be slowly but being eliminated. Equally you

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could see that the culture of drugs is rife. How many times have we

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been told that that's it, and line in the sand has been drawn,

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particularly for Cycling? One operation after another, police

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investigations, yet it comes back. What I would say about cycling is

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this. It would seem to me that cycling was in denial about a

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problem not so long ago. I think they have moved past that. There is

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little doubt from what I have seen, from the observations that time

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make that they have recognised the problem they had and they have done

:15:05.:15:13.

something about it. For example, the athlete biological passport

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programme effectively means the top 800 cyclists in the world are

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constantly giving blood for that particular programme to take effect.

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That puts all of the cyclists on notice common they can get and

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knock on the door at any time and something could lead to a sanction

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and it has occurred. That is an investment by cycling as a sport

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that I can only commend. What I believe is the case with cycling is

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that yes, they had big problems and would acknowledge that. They have

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less problems today but it is not a clean sport in the way any other

:15:59.:16:07.

sport is. Alberto Contador, the man who has been cleared, is supported

:16:07.:16:13.

by the Spanish Cycling Federation. How can you be confident when one

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of the national federations on which she you rely it is fighting

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I regret the fact that any federation it might take the side

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of somebody who has been found to have been committed to a drug

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offence. He has been found to have committed an offence.

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Doesn't that totally undercut your work?

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I can understand where Patriot doesn't sometimes overtakes common

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sense. -- patriotism. I say that none of us should be supportive of

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anybody who is a cheat. Weedy you think that Lance

:16:59.:17:06.

Armstrong's -- y you think that Lance Armstrong's investigation has

:17:06.:17:10.

been closed? Wedd is that leave your investigations.

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The week that no investigation into a home. The United States anti-

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doping agency has had a role and we have asked that the information

:17:21.:17:27.

that has been obtained which relates to doping by this law

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enforcement agency by this -- be passed over.

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So you say that your investigations are now beginning into Lance

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Armstrong? No. I am saying that there may well

:17:42.:17:46.

be information collected that may be of interest. The allegation was

:17:46.:17:52.

alleged fraud and a criminal investigation. There has been an

:17:52.:17:56.

investigation and a decision taken. It surprised me that the

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investigation stopped as abruptly as it did. All indications were

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that further indications -- and these would be occurring this way.

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That is simply stopped. What disappoints me is that any

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cheat that get away with it. Was that going to lead to an

:18:16.:18:22.

outcome? I have no idea. That had a fair bit to run before any of us

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has certainty. Why then do you think it is

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important that the United States anti-doping agency pursues Lance

:18:29.:18:38.

Armstrong? The American agency will progress

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of that matter, of the events allows them to and it may not be

:18:43.:18:51.

against Lance Armstrong but many of the others. -- evidence. I do not

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know. If they get the information, they can make that decision but it

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is an anti- doping investigation or and anti-doping procedure that they

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will pursue, not a criminal procedure which has now been

:19:04.:19:09.

stopped. I just wonder if one of the

:19:09.:19:13.

indications is not specifically to do with him or a much broader

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investigation. You said you are trying to move the focus away from

:19:18.:19:23.

testing towards more intelligence led operations in combination with

:19:23.:19:27.

police. Here, the American authorities have spent a huge

:19:27.:19:31.

amount of time and money investigating one man it to come up

:19:31.:19:38.

with nothing. It could be the lesson that has drawn from a lot of

:19:38.:19:41.

law enforcement agencies around the world that they want to co-operate

:19:41.:19:43.

that it is simply not worth the bother.

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I think what has occurred here is that they have pursued the alleged

:19:48.:19:56.

fraud. In the course of investigations there, they have

:19:56.:19:59.

entered into the world of doping and in that context, information

:19:59.:20:03.

has no doubt been collected by them which can be of some value and if

:20:03.:20:08.

we see it, if the anti-doping Agency sees it, then they can make

:20:08.:20:15.

those decisions. One can say that you should not let that evidence

:20:15.:20:21.

stay on some shelves somewhere. It may be very relevant to current

:20:21.:20:25.

athletes, not necessarily Lance Armstrong, who has announced his

:20:25.:20:31.

retirement. Let us see it being examined for the purposes of

:20:31.:20:35.

fighting against doping in bought it at Cannes, it will be a good

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thing. What convinces you that law

:20:37.:20:40.

enforcement agencies around the world will want to co-operate with

:20:40.:20:44.

you? There are countries that pass laws

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giving that right. There are an awful lot of countries

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that hadn't. We have developed a protocol for

:20:52.:20:56.

the association and co-operation between law enforcement agencies

:20:56.:21:00.

and anti-doping organisations. There are a lot of people who think

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that the focus on recreational drugs against performance enhancing

:21:05.:21:11.

drugs needs to be changed and that you are -- your sanctions are

:21:11.:21:17.

disproportionately harsh to those at lead to a court snorting cocaine

:21:17.:21:22.

or smoking cannabis, because it is not about becoming a better sports

:21:22.:21:27.

person. Let me say first leak, I dislike

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intensely the word recreation when it comes to talking about drugs.

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Those roads are in almost every country I know of in the world

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illegal. They are against a criminal code. But I also recognise

:21:41.:21:47.

that they are used on a widespread basis amongst many, particularly

:21:47.:21:52.

young, people including at least. I take you back to the rationale

:21:52.:21:57.

behind the anti-doping code that we have got. The three Tests are,

:21:57.:22:03.

firstly, is the substance a performance enhancing substance? It

:22:03.:22:08.

is an easy one and that is where the focus tense up to life. But

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they are two other arms to it. Is the use of that broke against the

:22:13.:22:20.

spirit of sport? Cannabis surely is against the spirit of sport. The

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third one is, is it a potential danger to the health of the afraid.

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But the same sort of sanction for somebody smoking a joint Bree weeks

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before a competition as somebody who has been using performance-

:22:32.:22:36.

enhancing drugs. Most of those drugs are only a

:22:36.:22:44.

legal or banned if they occur in competition. -- illegal. For

:22:44.:22:47.

example, in competition with football codes, the day of the

:22:47.:22:52.

match, for university matches, three weeks before will not lead to

:22:52.:22:54.

a sanction and that is clearly spelled out.

:22:54.:23:00.

So you would agree with your predecessor who said about a change

:23:00.:23:03.

in the balance between the sanctions for recreational and

:23:03.:23:07.

performance-enhancing drugs when he said, this is not a free pass for

:23:07.:23:09.

athletes but we have to recognise that somebody having a joint three

:23:09.:23:14.

weeks before a competition is not doping in the sense of performance

:23:14.:23:17.

enhancing. That is recognised in the way it is

:23:17.:23:21.

dealt with now. Nobody is going to be sanctioned for having a joint

:23:22.:23:28.

three weeks before a game of football or a race in any sport. It

:23:28.:23:33.

is the date of the sport, as I pointed out to you, in competition.

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Let me take you back to the start. I asked you whether you thought

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that you were winning it end you said, it is never going to be one

:23:43.:23:50.

but it is a fight we are making progress on. Back in 2010, you said

:23:50.:23:54.

there was ample evidence to suggest there is almost as much money, if

:23:54.:23:58.

not more money, coming out of performance-enhancing drugs as

:23:58.:24:02.

there is out of the illegal drug trade throughout the world. That

:24:02.:24:04.

does not suggest that you are winning.

:24:04.:24:09.

Which is why we work as strongly and closely as we do with the

:24:09.:24:14.

government of the world and 193 of those governments are in fact

:24:14.:24:18.

signatories to our code. Clearly, we need the law enforcement

:24:18.:24:23.

agencies in all of those countries to play their part. We need to

:24:23.:24:28.

ensure that as and when information is obtained and Interpol workers on

:24:28.:24:31.

that, that Interpol shares have that information with the police

:24:31.:24:37.

forces and that members of Interpol take action. All of us want to cut

:24:37.:24:42.

off the supply at force rather than see it trickled through where it

:24:42.:24:46.

actually allows and admit to succumb to the temptation of

:24:46.:24:50.

potential fortune and fame through the support of performance-

:24:50.:24:54.

enhancing drugs. How dangerous do you think it is

:24:54.:24:59.

that if global sport does not clean up further bad at a certain point

:24:59.:25:04.

that we will all just say, there is no point in fighting?

:25:04.:25:10.

Debt is the ultimate meltdown. If the integrity diminishes, if you

:25:10.:25:16.

lose faith in the contest, and believe that all of those qualities

:25:16.:25:21.

that's what brings with it, but most of us were imbued with has

:25:21.:25:25.

small children, then the fall of that disappears, but is exactly the

:25:25.:25:29.

outcome. People are simply won't turn up because they are not

:25:29.:25:34.

convinced any longer that it is true sport. That in itself, for all

:25:34.:25:40.

the good things that sport does in the world, is in my view at

:25:40.:25:47.

motivating factor for all but hard work that is put into fighting the

:25:47.:25:51.

problem, arresting its development we have the weekend. I believe we

:25:51.:25:57.

are making giant strides. I believe we have come a long way. We do have

:25:57.:26:01.

along way to go but there are many of us around the world who are very

:26:01.:26:06.

committed to not giving up in any shape or form.

:26:06.:26:16.
:26:16.:26:35.

John Fahey, thank you very much for In recent days, we may have heard a

:26:35.:26:39.

battle about mild air and cold air trying to get across from the

:26:39.:26:44.

continent and a battle overhead. The battle continues over Thursday.

:26:44.:26:50.

There is the over all set up here. Mild air is trying to push in. The

:26:51.:26:56.

problem is, call there will not go away. We have an ample warning for

:26:56.:27:01.

ice from the Met Office. -- called Air will not go away. We notice it

:27:01.:27:06.

is relatively milder across the northern parts of Scotland and

:27:06.:27:12.

towards Northern Ireland, but where the two air masses meet, we have

:27:12.:27:19.

rain falling into cold air across the North. A real problem. That is

:27:19.:27:25.

why there is an ample warning. We are still hanging on to a yellow

:27:25.:27:30.

warning for the southern parts of Scotland. For the rest of Scotland

:27:30.:27:35.

and Northern Ireland it is a great start. Relatively mild. Across the

:27:35.:27:40.

rest of England and Wales, it stays cold. No doubt about it. There is a

:27:40.:27:50.
:27:50.:27:51.

masterly -- actually start to Thursday. -- at chilly start. There

:27:51.:27:56.

will be less when for the south- eastern quarter. The cold is not as

:27:56.:28:01.

penetrating as was the case on Wednesday. This frontal zone will

:28:01.:28:10.

be a long real problem. It could be disruptive iced. Come the afternoon

:28:10.:28:16.

as it keeps running into this cold pool of air, we may well see a

:28:16.:28:22.

conversion of rain into snow across part of Yorkshire. Further north,

:28:22.:28:27.

it rise up and relatively speaking it is mild. We have had this battle

:28:27.:28:30.

and just when you thought that front was going to push all the

:28:30.:28:33.

mild air across the British Isles, it does not quite manage it, simply

:28:33.:28:37.

because we cannot -- we keep getting this cold air around the

:28:37.:28:42.

high pressure. Milder air is lapping into these northern and

:28:42.:28:47.

western parts. The boundary between the two becomes where we see this

:28:47.:28:51.

area of snow are developing which moves across Yorkshire and into the

:28:51.:28:54.

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