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What's the key to world-class sporting performance? Top coaches | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
will tell you the biggest prizes don't necessarily go to the best | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
natural athletes but to those best prepared. Science, technology and | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
psychology - all are used to gain a competitive edge. My guest today is | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
Sir Clive Woodward, coach of England's World Cup-winning rugby | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
team in 2003, and now performance director for the British Olympic | :00:33. | :00:43. | |
:00:43. | :01:10. | ||
Team preparing for London 2012. Are Sir Clive Woodward, welcome to | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you. You are in the hot seat this year - Director of | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
sport for the GB team. Are you beginning to feel the pressure? | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
just excitement. We are bringing the team together | :01:26. | :01:36. | |
:01:36. | :01:40. | ||
and looking forward to what will be As Director of Sport, you know you | :01:40. | :01:48. | |
will be judged on results. In this case it is going to be top, because | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
in Beijing the British team did so well. 19 gold medals. It is going | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
to be tough to top that. Beijing was a fantastic games. | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
Seeing what happened in China, the team performed fantastically well. | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
You have to look at the 19 gold medals. Eight of them came from | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
cycling. We came up well. We pushed the Australians down the medal | :02:16. | :02:26. | |
:02:26. | :02:30. | ||
table. We have confidence of doing well on the medal table. More gold | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
medals from all sports. If we can get a similar mix of medals in more | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
sports, that will surely be great progression. Sport in this country | :02:43. | :02:53. | |
:02:53. | :02:54. | ||
is going very well. I want to talk about it. You have been involved in | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
many different sports. Before we get there, let us stick with the | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
Olympics. You have a grand title, director of sport. Does it concern | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
you that you are not directly coaching any of the top athletes? | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
My job is to ensure when the athletes arrive, because the 26 | :03:09. | :03:19. | |
:03:19. | :03:23. | ||
sports operate independently. It is my job to make sure when all these | :03:23. | :03:33. | |
:03:33. | :03:37. | ||
athletes arrive, it is seamless. It's like their normal preparation. | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
I am very clear that I am there for A lot of it is creating the right | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
mentality. Diverse disciplines and diverse sets of athletes. You made | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
a great play of discipline. You say you want a set of rules for the | :03:56. | :04:06. | |
:04:06. | :04:14. | ||
team to adhere to. It seems almost Not at all. This is done with | :04:14. | :04:24. | |
complete consultation with all the athletes. We spoke to the | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
successful ones. You want to know how the rest of your team-mates are | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
going to operate. I say with the rugby team, how do you want to be | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
remembered? I cannot think of anything worse than you put on | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
something that affects the performance of your fellow athlete. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
You are living so close together. Coming home late at night, making | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
some noise and affecting someone's performance. These are basic | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
standards. This is speaking to all the athletes. You talk about | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
keeping your accommodation clean and tidy, no irresponsible | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Twittering, no swearing in public. No late-night noise. It smacks of | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
treating these top athletes like children. We could have gone a lot | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
:05:14. | :05:15. | ||
further. The last thing you want is having everyone do what they want. | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
Taking pictures of you. You have 26 teams coming together from a | :05:20. | :05:27. | |
complete dichotomy of different sports. Sports where this is new to | :05:27. | :05:37. | |
:05:37. | :05:37. | ||
them. As I said before, I cannot speak with the athletes. It maybe | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
inadvertent. This is crucial to the performance of the team. This is | :05:42. | :05:52. | |
:05:52. | :05:53. | ||
Here are the words of Darren Campbell, a former sprint champion. | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
He says, it is totally different when you're competing as an | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
individual. He is talking about the fact that much of your experience | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
is in team sports. For example, Phillips Idowu, the great a triple | :06:04. | :06:14. | |
:06:14. | :06:16. | ||
jumper, he knows what works for him. You cannot put rules down like this. | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
The way we have done this, we have done this across the 26 team | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
leaders. They go back to their athletes. They feed back to us if | :06:26. | :06:35. | |
there is anything that has caused some problem. By the time they are | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
right at the Games, someone like Phillips, he wants to know | :06:38. | :06:48. | |
:06:48. | :06:51. | ||
everything around him will be normal. Nothing can happen that may | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
affect his performance. The point that Darren Campbell was making, | :06:53. | :07:03. | |
:07:03. | :07:03. | ||
you can't treat individuals like Bolt or Idowu the same as you have. | :07:03. | :07:13. | |
:07:13. | :07:15. | ||
Like in rugby or your brief career I disagree. The secret is to treat | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
them more as individuals. Coaching a rugby team, you are approaching | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
individual people. To coach a rugby team, it is no different to a | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
coaching Darren Campbell or Usain Bolt. A lot of stuff we did in | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
rugby, it will work with individual athletes to make them better. That | :07:32. | :07:41. | |
is how I actually describe it. I would run a rugby team no different | :07:41. | :07:50. | |
to coaching an individual athlete. The Olympic Games is about bringing | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
people together and unless you know how to operate, this could all go | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
wrong and things could happen outside the actual performance side | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
of things. It could affect their ability to operate at the optimum | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
level. This is just sheer common sense. There is not an athlete I | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
have spoken to who is not willing to do this. They come back with | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
more ideas. I say, let us keep it to the bare minimum. Sheer common | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
sense. It is the common sense things that do not get used. That's | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
all I am trying to do. Another point about your background. | :08:30. | :08:39. | |
Intense effort put into preparation. Minute attention to detail. That's | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
a mark of your preparation. The England rugby team. There are some | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
suggestions, such as Tom Daley, the diver, they're not necessarily | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
quite putting in the hard work and the commitment that might have been | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
expected by sports directors like you. His own diving coach has said | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
he is being sort of distracted by media work. He sees the Chinese | :09:02. | :09:10. | |
work much harder. They restrict the Chinese. I support Do you see a | :09:10. | :09:19. | |
problem here? I do not see a problem. We have 26 sports. In each | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
sport, everyone is different. thought your sporting philosophy, | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
that applies across sport. There is a lot of common DNA, as you call it. | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
If I was coaching any sport, football, rugby, cricket, diving, | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
it is about, for me, being absolutely passionate to detail. | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
The higher up you go, Beijing was my first games. You were taking on | :09:43. | :09:53. | |
:09:53. | :09:54. | ||
the whole world there. It needed to be very special. To get there, you | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
have a talented athlete. You don't have detailed preparation. That is | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
what I try to do. All I can do is coach, I can think, what else can | :10:05. | :10:14. | |
You are employing science and technology and psychology as well. | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
You are employing all these different disciplines to get that | :10:16. | :10:26. | |
:10:26. | :10:27. | ||
edge. The sports do this anyway. I'm surprised what was said about | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
Tom Daley, I went to see him in Shanghai, he did remarkably well. | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
This is an incredibly talented athlete. He may be a bit different | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
and operates as an individual but the way he has prepared himself, | :10:37. | :10:47. | |
people should be quite proud of him. There's maybe just a few things. | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
His coach is comparing him with the Chinese, it is different. These are | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
very positive comments that his coach is making because he will | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
have a very good games. Another aspect of the unity you want in the | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
team might be affected by a ruling in the Court of Arbitration for | :11:00. | :11:08. | |
Sport. They need to decide this. Upholding the determination to ban | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
from the team athletes who have been convicted of serious doping | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
offences. It could mean that key figures in cycling, like David | :11:14. | :11:24. | |
:11:24. | :11:25. | ||
Miller, would be back on the team. Dwayne Chambers as well. Would that | :11:25. | :11:35. | |
:11:35. | :11:38. | ||
We will go with what the court says. The sports are already preparing | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
that. Whichever way this goes. We will go with what arbitration says. | :11:43. | :11:51. | |
I wonder what psychological affect These are very top people and very | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
top teams. It will be very tough. Whichever way it goes, we would | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
just adhere to that. It seems the overwhelming majority believe the | :12:01. | :12:11. | |
:12:11. | :12:16. | ||
Most of the athletes believe that to stick with the lifetime ban. If | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
it is overturned, surely many of At the end of this day, like this | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
interview, you are asked to comment on things and I agree with it. 90% | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
of athletes agree with the stance on it. You will find people will | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
move on. If it does not go that way, I do not think it will affect the | :12:39. | :12:49. | |
:12:49. | :12:50. | ||
team. I don't think so. You move on very quickly. These are tough | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
people. You don't say, I did not win a medal because the Court of | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
Arbitration went to this way. It is nonsense. This is an interesting | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
topic. In terms of a debate in the performance of the team, I do not | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
think so. As you look at the sport today and I'm not just talking | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
about your role in the Olympic team, do you believe that money is | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
increasingly becoming a corrosive factor at the top of professional | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
No I don't. I think it is the opposite. I think in a way, what I | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
do state is the money is not the prerequisite for winning. I see | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
people getting grants and money and still not go well. You need a | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
certain amount of money, there is no doubt about that. You might need | :13:38. | :13:47. | |
several things. It's about the coaches and the athletes. A certain | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
amount of funding to compete at that level. That is the sort of | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
funding that is put into resources. I was thinking in a different way. | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
Like professional football, the astronomical sums that are paid to | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
individual footballers and which some would argue changes the | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
relationship between the footballer, the team and in particular, the | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
manager or coach. The footballer holds so many of the cards because | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
of his economic power, earning maybe 5 or 6 or �7 million a year, | :14:11. | :14:20. | |
that it changes the dynamic and it No, to me, the great managers, they | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
will come up with this perfectly well. But Alex Ferguson has said | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
his relationship with players has changed as the economics of | :14:27. | :14:36. | |
:14:37. | :14:44. | ||
football has changed, so it is the He is, to me, a complete role model. | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
He has been up there so long, he would have changed his management | :14:47. | :14:57. | |
:14:57. | :14:58. | ||
style as circumstances change. One is the financial reward. I'm sure | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
he has changed since that but he is still the boss and he manages | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
:15:12. | :15:12. | ||
Look at Carlos Tevez. He is paid so much, but during a Champions League | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
game, he was called by his manager to warm up and go on and play, and | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
it seems he refused. That kind of thing may have happened in a whole | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
lot of sports. I have never seen football more popular. The Premier | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
League is the best in the world. In China, you have the Premier League | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
on television. It is the most popular game. That kind of thing | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
could happen in any other sport, but they might not be as high | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
profile. But you believe that athletes should be given roles, | :15:47. | :15:56. | |
guidelines and that is important for building a team and unity. Do | :15:56. | :16:05. | |
you think that would work in professional football today? Yes. | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
From my experience with professional football, I have been | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
to Arsenal and have seen the way it is run. It is a military operation. | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
That is why they are so successful. They have incredible team rules in | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
terms of how they operate. It is fantastic. It gave me many new | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
ideas. Right down to dressing-gowns and showering in certain showers if | :16:29. | :16:37. | |
you have got mud on you. It is amazing. It sets an incredible | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
culture of discipline for the team. I think you'll find most top | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
football clubs have this in place. That brings me to your own home | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
sport, rugby. If all that is achievable and possible, even in | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
the most lucrative of sports, what on earth went wrong in the World | :16:52. | :17:02. | |
:17:02. | :17:07. | ||
Cup for the England rugby team? Their discipline clearly was | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
lacking. I'm still a bit perplexed by that. When you know the | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
characters involved, Martin Johnson, Mike Tindall, these are people... | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
Martin Johnson became the coach having led England in 2003. There | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
he was last year in the World Cup campaign and we saw England players | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
going out late at night drinking after matches, we saw a bizarre | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
bungee-jumping trip during the World Cup campaign. How could that | :17:31. | :17:41. | |
:17:41. | :17:41. | ||
have happened? To be fair, I will not defend them because I went to | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
New Zealand for the final two weeks. They got it wrong. I think they had | :17:46. | :17:56. | |
:17:56. | :17:59. | ||
of control. The most questionable thing was the bungee-jumping. To | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
see the players with management approval go off on a bungee-jumping | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
trip was amazing to me. Can you imagine in the Olympics, Chris Hoy | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
bungee-jumping a week before his race? You would just laugh. That | :18:16. | :18:23. | |
almost summed the trip up for me. I do not know what went on. I had | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
never spoken to them about it. I do not think it is quite as bad as it | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
has been portrayed. It was one bad night out. It got out of control. | :18:36. | :18:45. | |
But I would not even have thought about bungee-jumping. I sense your | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
bemusement, but given that, does it strike you as strange that there | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
are senior people who are still involved with England rugby who did | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
not feel the need to walk away, like Martin Johnson did after that | :18:54. | :19:04. | |
:19:04. | :19:05. | ||
disastrous campaign? That is not my call. Martin did the right thing. | :19:05. | :19:13. | |
He knew he had a very bad World Cup. What other people do, that is out | :19:13. | :19:21. | |
of my jurisdiction. England has a caretaker coach at the moment. It | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
has an elite rugby director who has been around for a long time. Would | :19:25. | :19:33. | |
you like either of those positions? I have not thought about it. | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
Everybody else has been talking about it! It has not crossed my | :19:37. | :19:45. | |
mind. The job is not available. yet. All I can say is I have never | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
planned my career. The job I have now kind of came across my desk. | :19:50. | :20:00. | |
You do not know what will happen. I'm very happy with my position. | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
I'm not even thinking about rugby, because there are no interesting | :20:02. | :20:11. | |
jobs in rugby at the moment. I was wondering, if you were to take | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
charge of England, would you try to change the culture? The | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
investigation after the World Cup, players were asked to give their | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
opinion. One player described how after losing to France, a team-mate | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
came in and said, that is �35,000 gone down the toilet. It went back | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
to money. Do you think there is a problem with the mindset of English | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
rugby players? I do not think there is a problem. That is almost like | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
dressing room humour. I could see someone saying that. Sometimes | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
you're absolutely on the floor and when you're looking at it in black | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
and white, out of context, it can take a new meaning. Given the | :20:53. | :21:02. | |
disappointment, that is something I can see a player saying. But it is | :21:02. | :21:12. | |
not such a high-paid sport. When you see what they do and the way | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
they condition themselves and the dangers they put themselves in. | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
This is a highly dangerous game. I think they deserve every single | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
penny they get. You have said that you will not rule anything out, I | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
am wondering, what about football? You worked with Southampton for a | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
short time, which didn't work out so well. You have also said that | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
you would love a crack at full-time football management. Will you look | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
at that? It is interesting that you say it did not work out well. I had | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
a fantastic time. Southampton did not do very well. Harry Redknapp | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
left and you left soon after. I was going to be there for a year, | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
maximum. I was behind the scenes looking at the whole structure. I | :22:07. | :22:16. | |
was offered two jobs in football and was about to go into management. | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
They were two leagues below Southampton. I was going to do it. | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
I have learned enough and I was about to start at the bottom. But | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
then I got a call from Colin Moynihan about the Olympics. It was | :22:28. | :22:38. | |
:22:38. | :22:41. | ||
fantastic. I had a great year with Southampton. I sense your | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
excitement about football, but here is what one sports writer said. | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Richard Williams said: "Clive Woodward's is the story of an | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
energetic and imaginative man who has failed to find another vehicle | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
for his gifts." Do you think that is fair? Not at all. I'm incredibly | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
happy. I have had a great time since 2006, a great year at | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
Southampton. But you have written a book called, Winning'. A lot of | :23:10. | :23:18. | |
your life has been devoted to finding ways to win. I have not put | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
myself in that position. Are you shying away from that? I am | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
committed to the BOA, to Colin Moynihan, and I'm looking forward | :23:27. | :23:37. | |
:23:37. | :23:38. | ||
to 2012. I did a huge amount of learning in those six years. People | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
are far more open in Olympic sports than I was in rugby, certainly. The | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
amount of learning I have done has been fantastic. I hope I can pass | :23:46. | :23:56. | |
that onto other coaches. But I have not stopped. I have had a great | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
time doing what I'm doing. Hopefully I can pass on my | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
experience to other people. And a final thought. Do you get as much | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
joy from sport today as you did ten years ago? Totally. In a different | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
way. When I was coaching, there is one sort of joy when you're in the | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
changing room and there is a lot at stake. What I do now is a bit | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
different. I enjoy it in a different way. People might look at | :24:25. | :24:29. |