David Miliband - UK Foreign Secretary 2007 - 2010 HARDtalk


David Miliband - UK Foreign Secretary 2007 - 2010

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have been killed. Now latest time for HARDtalk. --

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now it is time for HARDtalk. Politics can be a cruel business

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and nobody knows that better than my guest today, Britain's former

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Foreign Secretary, David Miliband. He was hot favourite to lead the

:00:23.:00:28.

Labour Party after its 2010 election defeat, but he lost out to

:00:28.:00:32.

his own brother Ed Miliband. His steady rise to the political summit

:00:32.:00:37.

was halted but he remains a Labour MP and still makes carefully timed

:00:37.:00:40.

interventions in foreign policy and national politics. Without the

:00:40.:00:50.
:00:50.:01:13.

trappings of power, how does David David Miliband, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. Last time we spoke you were Foreign Secretary. Now you're

:01:18.:01:23.

not. You still travel the world but do not exercise the same power. Is

:01:23.:01:28.

that frustrating? Of course. Power is frustrating but the absence of

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it is absolutely frustrating. This is a time of enormous change around

:01:32.:01:39.

the world and it is a time when one is frankly wanting to have a chance

:01:39.:01:43.

to put one's values into practice and to try to make a difference.

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Interesting you put it like that. The Arab Spring has unfolded over

:01:46.:01:51.

the last year. You have been watching it and commenting on it.

:01:51.:01:56.

Do you believe right now, when we look at Syria to start with, when

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we look at how western governments are responding to the challengers,

:02:00.:02:05.

that they're getting it right? think Syria is a tough one. The

:02:05.:02:09.

catalyst for change is the Arab Spring, but it is much more than

:02:09.:02:14.

that. It is about the danger that Syria will become the new Lebanon

:02:14.:02:19.

war for a European audience, the new Bosnia. It's the case in

:02:19.:02:24.

lesbian and Bosnia was not just of sectarian street by street fighting.

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It was also about regional powers playing out their power games in

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these two plants, Lebanon and Bosnia. That is the danger in Syria

:02:34.:02:38.

today. Although the Arab Spring was the catalyst, it is now about it

:02:38.:02:42.

much more than an issue of the people against the Government.

:02:42.:02:46.

You're pointing to the huge strategic significance, but let's

:02:46.:02:50.

focus on the immediate humanitarian significance. What we are seeing

:02:50.:02:55.

day after day are Syrian security forces shelling, sniping at

:02:55.:02:59.

civilians, killing dozens a day. We believe the death toll may be

:02:59.:03:08.

beyond 7,000 now. We know four years western governments have been

:03:08.:03:10.

committed to this so-called responsibility to protect. What

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does that mean? Not just the UN. 180 countries around the world

:03:20.:03:22.

committed to the so-called responsibility to protect. What

:03:22.:03:26.

does it mean? There is a lot of buyers remorse. A lot of people who

:03:26.:03:31.

signed up to it are not willing to address it. There is a humanitarian

:03:31.:03:34.

crisis. You're quite right to call attention to the appalling

:03:34.:03:39.

slaughter going on. The prerequisite is to reunify the

:03:39.:03:45.

international community. Not just east versus West. Countries like

:03:45.:03:50.

the UK and the US are on one side. China and Russia on the other. The

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prerequisite is to reunify. Surely a humanitarian's first thought

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would be that the prerequisite is to save people's lives. That means

:03:59.:04:04.

doing something. My former colleague, the French Foreign

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Minister at the time, says the purpose of foreign policy is to

:04:07.:04:10.

stop people killing each other. You're right to bring passion and

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emotion to this. But it is not about photo opportunities for quick

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fixes. A very significant thing has happened but it has had far too

:04:20.:04:26.

little coverage. That is the appointment of Kofi Annan. Ince is

:04:26.:04:28.

the humanitarian crisis in a broader crisis. If there is one

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person in the world who has trust from diverse parties, Russia, the

:04:38.:04:44.

US, and Syria, it is Kofi Annan. It's his mission is incredibly a

:04:44.:04:48.

important to avoid the descent into full-scale Lebanese or Bosnian

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style civil war. That suggests you do not think anything can be done

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and will the deep divisions in the United Nations Security Council

:04:57.:05:01.

have been bridged. But there are other people, and I spoke last week

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to Senator John McCain bill is one of them, who say this. There are

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ways to get weapons into Syria. It is time we gave the opposition

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there the wherewithal to fight back and stop the slaughter. I agree

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with Hillary Clinton and not with John McCain on this. I remember the

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Charlie Wilson's war argument. The philosophy of my enemy's enemy is

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my friend can easily end you up in dangerous situations. But the

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thought from John McCain was this. Are we going to allow Russia and

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China to dictate our interventions when we know and we see the

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innocence -- that innocent civilians and being slaughtered.

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What should dictate interventions is whether those will make things

:05:46.:05:54.

better or worse. In my judgement, sending Western arms into Syria to

:05:54.:05:59.

support what on any account is a fragmented opposition. That does

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not pass the test of making the situation better. What about

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establishing humanitarian corridors? I gather that the UN

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Commissioner for Humanitarian Affairs is going to Syria. Anything

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like that that can establish corridors, safe zones is worthwhile,

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but let's remember, we need to stop the vile actions of the regime

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continuing. The key to that is to reunify the international community.

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People watching this will remember that you voted for the Iraq war.

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Your government support it of George Bush all the way through the

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Iraq war. Just to be clear about this, there was not a specific UN

:06:40.:06:44.

Security Council resolution supporting military intervention to

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topple Saddam Hussein. You support it. Why could you do that but now

:06:48.:06:58.
:06:58.:07:03.

yuans is the first thing to be done here is to preach...? -- Bridge.

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may touch on Iran and later as well. Any Western intervention has to

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remember it is much easier to start a war than to end it. If we have

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learned anything over the last ten years it is how difficult it is to

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bring the wars to an end. That is the test. Are we going to be able

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to achieve a situation where we restore stability? I want to

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emphasise this. Syria is a country that does not just implode, it

:07:32.:07:38.

could explode. It could have consequences for the whole reason.

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We must seek action and also make sure there are actions are going to

:07:43.:07:47.

achieve the desired result. With respect we have talked about

:07:47.:07:57.
:07:57.:07:57.

seeking action for many months. Can you as a recent former Foreign

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Secretary imagine any circumstances in which the British Government

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could sanction any sort of involvement in the Syria which

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involves establishing a safe haven before the UN Security Council is

:08:09.:08:15.

prepared to act? I was in China last week and told to leaders there.

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I have heard them say publicly and privately that the issue is getting

:08:20.:08:27.

the violence stopped. They point to violence on both sides. It is clear

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the vast amount of violence is coming from the regime. The regime

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is getting support from the divisions in the international

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community. That is what we have to overcome. It is also a case that

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the Bashar al-Assad regime has become a source of instability in

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the region, not a source of stability, which was always the

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argument. Just a thought on Russia. You are leading a series of

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influential foreign former secretaries and others who in the

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coming days will push for limited sanctions to be taken against

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Russian officials who are believed to be involved with the death in

:09:04.:09:10.

custody of a certain lawyer. You have referred in public statements

:09:10.:09:14.

to a culture of corruption and impunity in Vladimir Putin's Russia.

:09:14.:09:17.

If you want to work with the Russians diplomatically it does not

:09:17.:09:23.

seem to me you are going about it in a straightforward way. The two

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cases of internal change within Russia, where a democratic

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aspirations are clearly much more powerful than people on this

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programme might have guessed two or three months ago, remarkable scenes

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in Russia, and the external policy... Although I can see the

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link you are trying to make. can slag off Vladimir Putin's

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Russia as much as you like... not about doing that. We have got a

:09:50.:09:55.

clear principle. There needs to be due processes for all abuses of

:09:55.:10:01.

political and other rights. And 37- year-old lawyer who exposed

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millions of dollars of tax fraud particularly died after 11 months

:10:06.:10:10.

in Russian custody. That is the sort of issue that if we're not

:10:10.:10:14.

willing to speak up about we get right week called skipper Chris. We

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should speak up about it. Russia is relevant. You said you do not think

:10:22.:10:27.

talk of war is at all helpful. We have heard a lot about talk of war.

:10:27.:10:33.

We here in Washington and Israel. Are you suggesting that approach to

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Iran and its nuclear ambitions is wrong? The danger is we sleepwalk

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into a war in and with Iran, a war that stretches far beyond the talk

:10:46.:10:50.

we see in the newspapers of a quote unquote strike. We're talking about

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a declaration of war on Iran that could become Avriel conflagration

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in the region. I support that and Iran should abide by its

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international commitments under the treaty which is not to become a

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sponsor of a nuclear weapons state. It has a right to civilian nuclear

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power but not for that programme to leak into their weapons programme.

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Have we prevent that happening? If we try to humiliate the Iranians in

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submissions I do not believe they will get there. If we simply offer

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them incentives it will not work. It has to be a dual track strategy

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of sanctions but also we have to give them a way out with honour

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that allows them to stop the nuclear weapons site of their

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programme, which they of course publicly deny. Yes to sanctions but

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would you agree with another former Labour Secretary, Jack Straw, who

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say the idea of striking Iran militarily was nuts. The viewer

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saying would it be nuts to attack Iran now, I agree it would. -- if

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you are saying. I do not support an attack on Iran now. If you're

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saying, should we will things out or not, you cannot do that. We have

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to say we have a clear goal, a peaceful resolution to this dispute.

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The tragedy is, not that diplomacy has failed, but that we have not

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found the conditions under which it can succeed. President Obama did

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something important. He said he would seek to engage the Iranian

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regime. He did so in two letters to the Supreme Leader. It fell victim

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to two things. One was divisions in the regime. Secondly, to the green

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revolution in Iran which put a block on all engagement with the

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outside world. We have to restart that level of bilateral and

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multilateral engagement with the Iranians. Interesting that you talk

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about President Obama. Maybe there are questions about the consistency

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of some of his foreign policies. Les Stocker that Afghanistan. --

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let's talk about. We heard from the Defence Secretary that they were

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aiming to withdraw troops and see the end of all combat activities by

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2013. Is there are certain incoherence? I don't think

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incoherence but I am worried that different NATO countries are

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announcing different timetables for their end of their combat

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operations. What is it? It is different for different countries.

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It is important that we don't have an end date. There is endless talk

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of an end date. What you need in Afghanistan is an endgame. It has

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to be internal and regional. I'm worried when I hear people in

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Washington saying, not in the administration, but outside, that

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we should have great links with Pakistan. It's are you prepared to

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say that he your three years as Foreign Secretary were years that

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foreign policy failed? That is not entirely right. In respect...

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I should explain. It has failed in this sense that if you believe many

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on the ground, the end result in Afghanistan is going to be a

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settlement in which the Taliban plays a key role in the future of

:14:23.:14:27.

the country. We have been sacrificing men and material for

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years to try to prevent that. What we have done is sacrificing

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men and material in order to prevent the circumstances in which

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the Taliban could roll over the government in Afghanistan and

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established as safe haven for Al- Qaeda. That is the important thing.

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I spent three years arguing with the Bush administration that they

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had to be an internal political settlement that included those who

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supported the Taliban but not only them. There are many factions. To

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achieve that you need the region engaged as well. I take that point.

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When Paddy Ashdown noticed a thing... We try to get him to pay

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it a big role. He says, the truth is, we have to swallow the bitter

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pill. The Taliban will be crucial. I have said that as Foreign

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Secretary and I say it afterwards. The opinion polling suggest they

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have about six-10%. What is the right that any British politician

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has today to send young men and women dare to risk their lives for

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a war that frankly cannot achieve The war is there to ensure that our

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Creator are not able to launch... They are not a factor in

:15:53.:16:01.

Afghanistan. Why are we spending more men -- sending more man?

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Afghanistan and Pakistan are linked. But everyone knows that to get

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stability in a Afghanistan, you need stability in Pakistan. And

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vice-versa. If we only do the military side on the Afghanistan

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side of the border, it will not work. Can we turn our eyes in what

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towards the UK. You have for years been a key player in the Labour

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Party. Chief policy exert -- adviser to Tony Blair. Your words

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matter in your party. I would like to quote to a poll from a few weeks

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ago. One in five people think a Labour government right now what do

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a better job of managing the UK economy than the Conservative Party.

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It has a 10 point lead in the best policies on managing the economy.

:16:55.:17:01.

We are in a post-election period. The first two years after a general

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election. The Labour Party has had to lick its wounds and rebuild

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itself. It is a big battle to recover from being a battle for --

:17:09.:17:14.

from being an officer at the time of a global crisis. We were in

:17:14.:17:18.

office at the time and we are having to rebuild ourselves on that

:17:18.:17:25.

basis. Is it time for the leaders of the Labour Party, your younger

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brother, is it time for him and for others to say, we were wrong in

:17:30.:17:36.

several key respects of economic policy making? They have said that.

:17:36.:17:44.

he has never said that. He said they did not regulate the financial

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industry in the right way and the financial sector became too big.

:17:47.:17:52.

But he has never said he allowed the state to grow to be get too

:17:52.:17:57.

expensive. That is a different question. I think he is right to

:17:57.:18:02.

say that the systemic regulation of the financial system was not done

:18:02.:18:09.

right on a global scale. Not in the ten years up to 2008. But all

:18:09.:18:13.

progressive politicians in western Europe have got a fundamental

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question to address which is, we're out of power in 23 of 27 European

:18:19.:18:24.

countries. We have to address questions of wealth-creation, the

:18:24.:18:28.

type of society we are Cup becoming -- we are becoming, and the

:18:28.:18:33.

political system we need to develop. Yo Yought about this a lot.

:18:33.:18:40.

You have written about it. You said, the big state is a political

:18:40.:18:45.

dividend for Labour. What we have right now is a Conservative-led

:18:45.:18:48.

government which is committed to reducing the percentage of GDP

:18:48.:18:58.
:18:58.:18:58.

national output from 47% to 41%. Presumably you welcome that.

:18:58.:19:03.

think they are doing great damage to our economy and society. There

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is a massive row about what they are doing. Anyone who looks at the

:19:08.:19:13.

economic data will see that the Masons economic renewal has been

:19:13.:19:17.

completely snuffed out. We are looking at a situation where under

:19:17.:19:21.

Conservative rule British income per head will not reach 2002 levels

:19:22.:19:28.

until 2016. They are failing. are not addressing my point. The

:19:28.:19:36.

intellectual flow of Tony Blair and Labour having to move away from a

:19:36.:19:41.

big state philosophy actually quite in tune with many of the reforms

:19:41.:19:46.

being undertaken by this government. It is true that the Conservatives

:19:46.:19:52.

were blitzed in the '90s by Tony Blair and others who pushed them

:19:52.:19:57.

out of the centre ground. They are having to respond. On any issue

:19:57.:20:01.

which goes to the heart of the British Social Contract, Howells,

:20:01.:20:07.

the Conservatives are in danger of breaking it. -- health. It is

:20:07.:20:15.

significant. The right is not peddling many solutions as well.

:20:15.:20:20.

don't want to give too many poll results to, but right now, the

:20:21.:20:25.

British public is happy to back the Conservative approach. Do you

:20:25.:20:32.

believe that it is currently making any mistakes? Let me make common

:20:32.:20:38.

ground with the Labour had an terrible election loss. The test of

:20:38.:20:41.

it will come the next general election. I think Ed Miliband is

:20:42.:20:46.

leaving the party with conviction, energy and strife. -- leading the

:20:46.:20:51.

party. But there are two keys to win back the confidence of the

:20:51.:20:57.

British public. One, we show them we understand why they voted us out.

:20:57.:21:01.

Second, we show them we are developing new ideas for the future

:21:01.:21:06.

of Britain. That is a project that my brother is leading. A what would

:21:06.:21:12.

she have done differently? I will not get into that because I know it

:21:12.:21:16.

is any intellectual programme editors watched around the world

:21:16.:21:20.

but some people might make a little bit of mischief about an

:21:20.:21:24.

alternative scenario for the last year and a half. When you give an

:21:24.:21:28.

answer like that, you have been politically neutered. It is

:21:28.:21:32.

difficult for you to give important opinions about the future of your

:21:32.:21:37.

company because you are worried that every sneeze, everybody

:21:37.:21:41.

gesture is going to be used between you and your brother. Is that the

:21:41.:21:47.

weight you feel? More-or-less, yes. I don't want to be part of a daily

:21:47.:21:54.

soap opera. I was in these are very studio head one of the interviewers

:21:54.:21:59.

said that they like soap opera for the media. It means you can't have

:21:59.:22:04.

a political career in this country. It means I create a leadership

:22:04.:22:07.

academy for training at Labour members and supporters to make

:22:07.:22:12.

change around the country. I su suparty at universities

:22:12.:22:18.

and elsewhere to make sure we we built at the grassroots. You do a

:22:18.:22:24.

lot of speaking but yacht voting attendance record is around 40%. --

:22:24.:22:28.

your voting attendance. You seem to be less committed to the politics

:22:28.:22:33.

than you were. You will have seen in the arts as I have given in the

:22:33.:22:39.

last few minutes... There is a passion in what I do in politics.

:22:40.:22:44.

As I go around the country nurturing Labour at the Ritz, you

:22:44.:22:49.

see that passion for Labour and for Britain. -- at the roots. The great

:22:49.:22:53.

causes that brought me into politics at the first place, in a

:22:53.:23:02.

just -- injustice, inequality, they big hit in the last 18 months but I

:23:02.:23:06.

am getting up off the floor. wonder if your heart is still in

:23:06.:23:12.

politics. You are making a lot of money on the speaker says that --

:23:12.:23:17.

speaker circuit. It adds up to a whole head of a lot of money, more

:23:17.:23:25.

than you could ever make as a backbench politicians. My driver

:23:25.:23:29.

his meaning, not money. What drives me is making a difference to think

:23:29.:23:34.

that I care about. I will not apologise to broadening my

:23:34.:23:39.

experience. I will not apologise for helping a company that wants to

:23:39.:23:45.

make an economic difference in Pakistan. All for broadening and

:23:45.:23:49.

deepening my understanding and my ability to contribute to public

:23:49.:23:54.

affairs. I think it is the right thing to do it. Are you preparing

:23:54.:23:59.

yourself for when Ed Miliband has gone, whatever the circumstances,

:23:59.:24:05.

for another bid to lead the Labour Party? No, I am passionate about my

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