Browse content similar to David Miliband - UK Foreign Secretary 2007 - 2010. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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have been killed. Now latest time for HARDtalk. -- | :00:06. | :00:14. | |
now it is time for HARDtalk. Politics can be a cruel business | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
and nobody knows that better than my guest today, Britain's former | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
Foreign Secretary, David Miliband. He was hot favourite to lead the | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
Labour Party after its 2010 election defeat, but he lost out to | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
his own brother Ed Miliband. His steady rise to the political summit | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
was halted but he remains a Labour MP and still makes carefully timed | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
interventions in foreign policy and national politics. Without the | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
:00:50. | :01:13. | ||
trappings of power, how does David David Miliband, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
Thank you. Last time we spoke you were Foreign Secretary. Now you're | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
not. You still travel the world but do not exercise the same power. Is | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
that frustrating? Of course. Power is frustrating but the absence of | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
it is absolutely frustrating. This is a time of enormous change around | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
the world and it is a time when one is frankly wanting to have a chance | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
to put one's values into practice and to try to make a difference. | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
Interesting you put it like that. The Arab Spring has unfolded over | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
the last year. You have been watching it and commenting on it. | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
Do you believe right now, when we look at Syria to start with, when | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
we look at how western governments are responding to the challengers, | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
that they're getting it right? think Syria is a tough one. The | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
catalyst for change is the Arab Spring, but it is much more than | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
that. It is about the danger that Syria will become the new Lebanon | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
war for a European audience, the new Bosnia. It's the case in | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
lesbian and Bosnia was not just of sectarian street by street fighting. | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
It was also about regional powers playing out their power games in | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
these two plants, Lebanon and Bosnia. That is the danger in Syria | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
today. Although the Arab Spring was the catalyst, it is now about it | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
much more than an issue of the people against the Government. | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
You're pointing to the huge strategic significance, but let's | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
focus on the immediate humanitarian significance. What we are seeing | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
day after day are Syrian security forces shelling, sniping at | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
civilians, killing dozens a day. We believe the death toll may be | :02:59. | :03:08. | |
beyond 7,000 now. We know four years western governments have been | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
committed to this so-called responsibility to protect. What | :03:10. | :03:20. | |
does that mean? Not just the UN. 180 countries around the world | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
committed to the so-called responsibility to protect. What | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
does it mean? There is a lot of buyers remorse. A lot of people who | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
signed up to it are not willing to address it. There is a humanitarian | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
crisis. You're quite right to call attention to the appalling | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
slaughter going on. The prerequisite is to reunify the | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
international community. Not just east versus West. Countries like | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
the UK and the US are on one side. China and Russia on the other. The | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
prerequisite is to reunify. Surely a humanitarian's first thought | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
would be that the prerequisite is to save people's lives. That means | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
doing something. My former colleague, the French Foreign | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
Minister at the time, says the purpose of foreign policy is to | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
stop people killing each other. You're right to bring passion and | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
emotion to this. But it is not about photo opportunities for quick | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
fixes. A very significant thing has happened but it has had far too | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
little coverage. That is the appointment of Kofi Annan. Ince is | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
the humanitarian crisis in a broader crisis. If there is one | :04:28. | :04:38. | |
person in the world who has trust from diverse parties, Russia, the | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
US, and Syria, it is Kofi Annan. It's his mission is incredibly a | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
important to avoid the descent into full-scale Lebanese or Bosnian | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
style civil war. That suggests you do not think anything can be done | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
and will the deep divisions in the United Nations Security Council | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
have been bridged. But there are other people, and I spoke last week | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
to Senator John McCain bill is one of them, who say this. There are | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
ways to get weapons into Syria. It is time we gave the opposition | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
there the wherewithal to fight back and stop the slaughter. I agree | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
with Hillary Clinton and not with John McCain on this. I remember the | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
Charlie Wilson's war argument. The philosophy of my enemy's enemy is | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
my friend can easily end you up in dangerous situations. But the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
thought from John McCain was this. Are we going to allow Russia and | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
China to dictate our interventions when we know and we see the | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
innocence -- that innocent civilians and being slaughtered. | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
What should dictate interventions is whether those will make things | :05:46. | :05:54. | |
better or worse. In my judgement, sending Western arms into Syria to | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
support what on any account is a fragmented opposition. That does | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
not pass the test of making the situation better. What about | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
establishing humanitarian corridors? I gather that the UN | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
Commissioner for Humanitarian Affairs is going to Syria. Anything | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
like that that can establish corridors, safe zones is worthwhile, | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
but let's remember, we need to stop the vile actions of the regime | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
continuing. The key to that is to reunify the international community. | :06:26. | :06:33. | |
People watching this will remember that you voted for the Iraq war. | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
Your government support it of George Bush all the way through the | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
Iraq war. Just to be clear about this, there was not a specific UN | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
Security Council resolution supporting military intervention to | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
topple Saddam Hussein. You support it. Why could you do that but now | :06:48. | :06:58. | |
:06:58. | :07:03. | ||
yuans is the first thing to be done here is to preach...? -- Bridge. | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
may touch on Iran and later as well. Any Western intervention has to | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
remember it is much easier to start a war than to end it. If we have | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
learned anything over the last ten years it is how difficult it is to | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
bring the wars to an end. That is the test. Are we going to be able | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
to achieve a situation where we restore stability? I want to | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
emphasise this. Syria is a country that does not just implode, it | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
could explode. It could have consequences for the whole reason. | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
We must seek action and also make sure there are actions are going to | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
achieve the desired result. With respect we have talked about | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
:07:57. | :07:57. | ||
seeking action for many months. Can you as a recent former Foreign | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
Secretary imagine any circumstances in which the British Government | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
could sanction any sort of involvement in the Syria which | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
involves establishing a safe haven before the UN Security Council is | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
prepared to act? I was in China last week and told to leaders there. | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
I have heard them say publicly and privately that the issue is getting | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
the violence stopped. They point to violence on both sides. It is clear | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
the vast amount of violence is coming from the regime. The regime | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
is getting support from the divisions in the international | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
community. That is what we have to overcome. It is also a case that | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
the Bashar al-Assad regime has become a source of instability in | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
the region, not a source of stability, which was always the | :08:46. | :08:55. | |
argument. Just a thought on Russia. You are leading a series of | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
influential foreign former secretaries and others who in the | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
coming days will push for limited sanctions to be taken against | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
Russian officials who are believed to be involved with the death in | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
custody of a certain lawyer. You have referred in public statements | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
to a culture of corruption and impunity in Vladimir Putin's Russia. | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
If you want to work with the Russians diplomatically it does not | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
seem to me you are going about it in a straightforward way. The two | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
cases of internal change within Russia, where a democratic | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
aspirations are clearly much more powerful than people on this | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
programme might have guessed two or three months ago, remarkable scenes | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
in Russia, and the external policy... Although I can see the | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
link you are trying to make. can slag off Vladimir Putin's | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
Russia as much as you like... not about doing that. We have got a | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
clear principle. There needs to be due processes for all abuses of | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
political and other rights. And 37- year-old lawyer who exposed | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
millions of dollars of tax fraud particularly died after 11 months | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
in Russian custody. That is the sort of issue that if we're not | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
willing to speak up about we get right week called skipper Chris. We | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
should speak up about it. Russia is relevant. You said you do not think | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
talk of war is at all helpful. We have heard a lot about talk of war. | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
We here in Washington and Israel. Are you suggesting that approach to | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
Iran and its nuclear ambitions is wrong? The danger is we sleepwalk | :10:38. | :10:46. | |
into a war in and with Iran, a war that stretches far beyond the talk | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
we see in the newspapers of a quote unquote strike. We're talking about | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
a declaration of war on Iran that could become Avriel conflagration | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
in the region. I support that and Iran should abide by its | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
international commitments under the treaty which is not to become a | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
sponsor of a nuclear weapons state. It has a right to civilian nuclear | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
power but not for that programme to leak into their weapons programme. | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
Have we prevent that happening? If we try to humiliate the Iranians in | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
submissions I do not believe they will get there. If we simply offer | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
them incentives it will not work. It has to be a dual track strategy | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
of sanctions but also we have to give them a way out with honour | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
that allows them to stop the nuclear weapons site of their | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
programme, which they of course publicly deny. Yes to sanctions but | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
would you agree with another former Labour Secretary, Jack Straw, who | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
say the idea of striking Iran militarily was nuts. The viewer | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
saying would it be nuts to attack Iran now, I agree it would. -- if | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
you are saying. I do not support an attack on Iran now. If you're | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
saying, should we will things out or not, you cannot do that. We have | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
to say we have a clear goal, a peaceful resolution to this dispute. | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
The tragedy is, not that diplomacy has failed, but that we have not | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
found the conditions under which it can succeed. President Obama did | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
something important. He said he would seek to engage the Iranian | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
regime. He did so in two letters to the Supreme Leader. It fell victim | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
to two things. One was divisions in the regime. Secondly, to the green | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
revolution in Iran which put a block on all engagement with the | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
outside world. We have to restart that level of bilateral and | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
multilateral engagement with the Iranians. Interesting that you talk | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
about President Obama. Maybe there are questions about the consistency | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
of some of his foreign policies. Les Stocker that Afghanistan. -- | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
let's talk about. We heard from the Defence Secretary that they were | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
aiming to withdraw troops and see the end of all combat activities by | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
2013. Is there are certain incoherence? I don't think | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
incoherence but I am worried that different NATO countries are | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
announcing different timetables for their end of their combat | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
operations. What is it? It is different for different countries. | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
It is important that we don't have an end date. There is endless talk | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
of an end date. What you need in Afghanistan is an endgame. It has | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
to be internal and regional. I'm worried when I hear people in | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
Washington saying, not in the administration, but outside, that | :13:48. | :13:55. | |
we should have great links with Pakistan. It's are you prepared to | :13:55. | :14:02. | |
say that he your three years as Foreign Secretary were years that | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
foreign policy failed? That is not entirely right. In respect... | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
I should explain. It has failed in this sense that if you believe many | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
on the ground, the end result in Afghanistan is going to be a | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
settlement in which the Taliban plays a key role in the future of | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
the country. We have been sacrificing men and material for | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
years to try to prevent that. What we have done is sacrificing | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
men and material in order to prevent the circumstances in which | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
the Taliban could roll over the government in Afghanistan and | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
established as safe haven for Al- Qaeda. That is the important thing. | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
I spent three years arguing with the Bush administration that they | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
had to be an internal political settlement that included those who | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
supported the Taliban but not only them. There are many factions. To | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
achieve that you need the region engaged as well. I take that point. | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
When Paddy Ashdown noticed a thing... We try to get him to pay | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
it a big role. He says, the truth is, we have to swallow the bitter | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
pill. The Taliban will be crucial. I have said that as Foreign | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
Secretary and I say it afterwards. The opinion polling suggest they | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
have about six-10%. What is the right that any British politician | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
has today to send young men and women dare to risk their lives for | :15:39. | :15:49. | |
a war that frankly cannot achieve The war is there to ensure that our | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
Creator are not able to launch... They are not a factor in | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
Afghanistan. Why are we spending more men -- sending more man? | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Afghanistan and Pakistan are linked. But everyone knows that to get | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
stability in a Afghanistan, you need stability in Pakistan. And | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
vice-versa. If we only do the military side on the Afghanistan | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
side of the border, it will not work. Can we turn our eyes in what | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
towards the UK. You have for years been a key player in the Labour | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
Party. Chief policy exert -- adviser to Tony Blair. Your words | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
matter in your party. I would like to quote to a poll from a few weeks | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
ago. One in five people think a Labour government right now what do | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
a better job of managing the UK economy than the Conservative Party. | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
It has a 10 point lead in the best policies on managing the economy. | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
We are in a post-election period. The first two years after a general | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
election. The Labour Party has had to lick its wounds and rebuild | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
itself. It is a big battle to recover from being a battle for -- | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
from being an officer at the time of a global crisis. We were in | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
office at the time and we are having to rebuild ourselves on that | :17:18. | :17:25. | |
basis. Is it time for the leaders of the Labour Party, your younger | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
brother, is it time for him and for others to say, we were wrong in | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
several key respects of economic policy making? They have said that. | :17:36. | :17:44. | |
he has never said that. He said they did not regulate the financial | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
industry in the right way and the financial sector became too big. | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
But he has never said he allowed the state to grow to be get too | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
expensive. That is a different question. I think he is right to | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
say that the systemic regulation of the financial system was not done | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
right on a global scale. Not in the ten years up to 2008. But all | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
progressive politicians in western Europe have got a fundamental | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
question to address which is, we're out of power in 23 of 27 European | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
countries. We have to address questions of wealth-creation, the | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
type of society we are Cup becoming -- we are becoming, and the | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
political system we need to develop. Yo Yought about this a lot. | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
You have written about it. You said, the big state is a political | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
dividend for Labour. What we have right now is a Conservative-led | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
government which is committed to reducing the percentage of GDP | :18:48. | :18:58. | |
:18:58. | :18:58. | ||
national output from 47% to 41%. Presumably you welcome that. | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
think they are doing great damage to our economy and society. There | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
is a massive row about what they are doing. Anyone who looks at the | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
economic data will see that the Masons economic renewal has been | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
completely snuffed out. We are looking at a situation where under | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
Conservative rule British income per head will not reach 2002 levels | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
until 2016. They are failing. are not addressing my point. The | :19:28. | :19:36. | |
intellectual flow of Tony Blair and Labour having to move away from a | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
big state philosophy actually quite in tune with many of the reforms | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
being undertaken by this government. It is true that the Conservatives | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
were blitzed in the '90s by Tony Blair and others who pushed them | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
out of the centre ground. They are having to respond. On any issue | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
which goes to the heart of the British Social Contract, Howells, | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
the Conservatives are in danger of breaking it. -- health. It is | :20:07. | :20:15. | |
significant. The right is not peddling many solutions as well. | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
don't want to give too many poll results to, but right now, the | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
British public is happy to back the Conservative approach. Do you | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
believe that it is currently making any mistakes? Let me make common | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
ground with the Labour had an terrible election loss. The test of | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
it will come the next general election. I think Ed Miliband is | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
leaving the party with conviction, energy and strife. -- leading the | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
party. But there are two keys to win back the confidence of the | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
British public. One, we show them we understand why they voted us out. | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
Second, we show them we are developing new ideas for the future | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
of Britain. That is a project that my brother is leading. A what would | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
she have done differently? I will not get into that because I know it | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
is any intellectual programme editors watched around the world | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
but some people might make a little bit of mischief about an | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
alternative scenario for the last year and a half. When you give an | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
answer like that, you have been politically neutered. It is | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
difficult for you to give important opinions about the future of your | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
company because you are worried that every sneeze, everybody | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
gesture is going to be used between you and your brother. Is that the | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
weight you feel? More-or-less, yes. I don't want to be part of a daily | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
soap opera. I was in these are very studio head one of the interviewers | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
said that they like soap opera for the media. It means you can't have | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
a political career in this country. It means I create a leadership | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
academy for training at Labour members and supporters to make | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
change around the country. I su suparty at universities | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
and elsewhere to make sure we we built at the grassroots. You do a | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
lot of speaking but yacht voting attendance record is around 40%. -- | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
your voting attendance. You seem to be less committed to the politics | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
than you were. You will have seen in the arts as I have given in the | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
last few minutes... There is a passion in what I do in politics. | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
As I go around the country nurturing Labour at the Ritz, you | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
see that passion for Labour and for Britain. -- at the roots. The great | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
causes that brought me into politics at the first place, in a | :22:53. | :23:02. | |
just -- injustice, inequality, they big hit in the last 18 months but I | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
am getting up off the floor. wonder if your heart is still in | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
politics. You are making a lot of money on the speaker says that -- | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
speaker circuit. It adds up to a whole head of a lot of money, more | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
than you could ever make as a backbench politicians. My driver | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
his meaning, not money. What drives me is making a difference to think | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
that I care about. I will not apologise to broadening my | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
experience. I will not apologise for helping a company that wants to | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
make an economic difference in Pakistan. All for broadening and | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
deepening my understanding and my ability to contribute to public | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
affairs. I think it is the right thing to do it. Are you preparing | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
yourself for when Ed Miliband has gone, whatever the circumstances, | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
for another bid to lead the Labour Party? No, I am passionate about my | :24:05. | :24:11. |