Browse content similar to Lord Carey - Archbishop of Canterbury, 1991-2002. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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That is the summary of the headlines. It is now time for | :00:01. | :00:11. | |
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Britain's Christians are being encouraged to join a new crusade. | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
To defend their religion from an aggressive secularism said to be | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
threatening the country's Christian identity. Leading this fight back | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
of the faithful is the former Archbishop of Canterbury, George | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
Carey. From public prayer to Bishops in Parliament, he says it's | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
time to make a stand for religious rights. Stephen Sackur asks if | :00:34. | :00:44. | |
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there is really a place for God in Lord Carey, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
is could be on your programme. me ask you this, do you resent the | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
fact that Britain in the 21st century has become of a largely | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
secular place? Can I begin by the word you used earlier, crusade? The | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
Church of England and the Anglican community is not usually noted for | :01:33. | :01:41. | |
a crusade. I am there for standing up for the rights of minorities of | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
all kinds. I believe today there is any for Christians to show their | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
backbone and to stand up for what they believe in. I used the word | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
crusade because I had been looking at some of the language you have | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
used in reason. You have called for, and this is your phrase, a call to | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
arms. Yet spoken about the place of Christians in Britain and how would | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
you think it is an ass and then battle between Christians and | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
secularists. In some cases, this is already happening. My book is a | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
defence of the Christian faith. When I say a call to arms, that | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
does not mean weapons. We must use argument. We must say something | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
about our faith today. We are not living in a secular country, that | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
is my point. We live in almost a halfway house. The Church has a | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
very strong civic role in this country. Historically undoubtedly | :02:43. | :02:51. | |
true. I am talking about Britain in the 21st century. Look across a | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
culture. Look across the value systems. It is a secular country, | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
isn't it? No, I resist that. If we take the word secular it - it | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
simply means world. Secular has come to mean NT God. We are not an | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
MP got a country by any way. We are celebrating the 60th anniversary of | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
the Queen to the throne. 60 years ago it began with a prayer and | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
devotion to her people. In other words, the Queen is the head of a | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
society in which Christianity is the established faith. Let me pick | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
you up on a phrase that you just use when you said that centralism - | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
- secularism is against God. That is not exactly true. Secularism is | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
keeping religion out of the public space. It is simply saying that in | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
the public space, religion should not feature. My point is that it is | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
already there. Our country has been influenced profoundly by it. | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Parliament begins with prayers. Bishops speak out on things. The | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
freedom to speak is around. What I am saying is that we must be aware | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
of the forces which are pushing Christianity to the margins and I | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
give plenty of examples about this. Let's talk about some of these | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
forces. You seem to have a particular beef with the courts at | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
the moment. You seem to think that many of Britain's judges have some | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
sort of an investor wants religion and Christianity. I think in some | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
cases that seems to be the case. They have not come out and said | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
that in so many words, but if you have a look at... Of course it | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
isn't. It seems to be an interpretation of which there is no | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
evidence. Look at the language. We are not a theocracy, one judge says. | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
We are a secular society. I have never argued for a theocracy. All | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
that I have argued for is that judges have a little understanding | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
of how society, respect the Christian heritage. I even | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
suggested they may be an equivalent to setting up a team of judges | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
similar to Maric judges and other types. You impugning the quality of | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
many of the judges. Using to suggest that many of the British | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
judges are incapable of making decisions when it comes to the | :05:29. | :05:36. | |
place of police and religion in society. Why, as a bishop, we know | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
what to intervene in law. It was certainly intervene. Just the other | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
day he said, and this is a direct quote, the law has no link between | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
the law and Christian faith. That to me is a definition of a | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
theocracy. I am not interfering in natural laws and legal decisions. | :05:59. | :06:07. | |
They are making judgments that are highly theological. They are saying | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
that marriage is not a key element in Christianity. Let's just sort | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
this out then. Do you believe that judges should allow old Christian | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
values and beliefs to trump legal commitment to equality and human it | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
-- human rights? Put it the other way around. Equality itself is a | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
virtue and a virtue of freedom. At the moment, equality is tromping | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
everything else. All I am asking for is that the test of a democracy | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
is how we deal with minorities. In the cases I give, I think people | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
are being disadvantaged because they come with a strong faith. In | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
some cases I do not believe in the attitude they have taken, but I | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
want to preserve their right to respect. We had a recent case in | :07:04. | :07:14. | |
the UK, a small town in Devon had always begun its formal council | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
proceedings with a Christian prayer. Now, one of the councillors, who | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
was not a believer, dot this undermined his full rights to the | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
take of all council business because this was formal council | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
business and he could not prey because he was not a Christian. He | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
took his case to court and in the end the judge found that yes, in | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
terms of the interpretation of the Local Government Act of 1972, this | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
was an infringement. I do not see why you have spoken out against | :07:47. | :07:56. | |
this ruling. Here is a case of a person who is not a believer, and I | :07:56. | :08:06. | |
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respect that, and asserted himself with a National secular Society. In | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
a recent comment, one of them has said they were to bring down | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
prayers in Parliament eventually. Because they want is a -- what they | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
want is a complete separation. they are ignoring is a whole | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
history of culture of this going on up and down the country. A | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
wonderful compromise could be made and that is simply a matter of | :08:31. | :08:41. | |
moving prayer before the agenda. Instead of having prayer on the | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
agenda. That is what they have said. If we have removed prayer as a | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
formal part of the agenda, we would not have a problem with it. This is | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
their convention. I see nothing wrong in it. I think they are | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
determined to do something about this. I will wait and see what | :09:00. | :09:09. | |
happens. By Boyd comes back to the primacy of law. You have said | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
things about living in digs the right way. You're not challenge the | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
judge's rolling, wooded? One of the great things about our country is | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
how democracy gives us the right to argue our point of view. I go | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
completely with the law. If the law says something, as a citizen, I | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
must follow it. What I am pleading for his accommodation. I think a | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
test of the democracy is the way we deal with minority opinion. I am | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
asking for accommodation. Recently, in Canada, they set up a commission | :09:52. | :10:01. | |
and so they said we need to bring in differences. I can see that on a | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
case-by-case basis they may be run for that, but I want to read the | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
year the judgement of a senior judge in 2010. He was dealing with | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
another case which was all about a Maric councillor who was asked as | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
part of his work to talk to a gay couple who were having problems and | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
he absolutely refused office services because he said he | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
contravened his own religious beliefs. Again, his own company | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
that he worked for was outraged by this. They talking to court. The | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
judge found against him. The judge said the precepts of any belief | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
system cannot sound any louder than the general law. If they did, those | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
out in the cold would be less than citizens. Our constitution would be | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
on the way to a theocracy. That is exactly it. I go part of the way | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
with the Lord Justice. At the idea of a theocracy is absolute nonsense. | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
We already have a basis in Christianity. That gender meant was | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
doing his job when equal opportunities came in. Instead of | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
actually having a compromise, the man was pushed out of his job. It | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
would have been easy to accommodate the gentleman. Law comes down as a | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
very harsh thing in the case of individuals. These cases are very | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
telling. Let's talk about one more. Another very telling case recently | :11:31. | :11:41. | |
was the couple who ran a guesthouse, a bed and breakfast. They refuse to | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
offer their accommodation to a gay couple. That went through the | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
chords as well. I wonder whether you, as a religious man of | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
influence, supported their case. am much more ambivalent about that | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
because I think that if you offer your home as a business it is very | :12:03. | :12:13. | |
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difficult to say you will only accept certain types of people. | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
When you operated a bed and breakfast, digit taking gay | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
couples? I did not know. If you knew that they were gay, which you | :12:25. | :12:34. | |
have? We were much more innocent back then. My wife and I offered | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
hospitality, which is a form of Christianity. We had all kinds of | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
people come into our home. We did not ask questions of them, which is | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
why I am more ambivalent. They do not see why you are end of lead at | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
all. When you offer a public good or service, you do not have a right | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
to discriminate. If somebody said they were not offering a run to a | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
black person, you would not be ambivalent about that. Mind ember | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
that comes from not knowing enough about that situation. -- my | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
ambivalence. But supposing the case of a bed-and-breakfast someone | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
comes to you totally drunk and you have to say it, you are not welcome | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
here because you are drunk. In their case, they took an exception | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
to a couple because in terms of their belief the couple was not | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
welcome. I am ambivalent because I do not know about the situation in | :13:34. | :13:44. | |
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terms of the law. I would not have It bitching continues down a path | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
which involves more commitment to equality legislation is an, perhaps | :13:54. | :14:04. | |
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it goes even further weight challenges things like prayer in | :14:06. | :14:14. | |
Parliament. -- if Britain continues. If all about were stripped away, | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
why would that really matter to the Church of England? The Church of | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
England and all the churches will go on doing their jobs to the best | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
of their abilities. It would be better for the Church in many ways. | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
It would make them focus more purely on what matters which is | :14:33. | :14:43. | |
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bringing people, individuals, to the fates. -- the faith. It is an | :14:46. | :14:56. | |
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opportunity for us all. We have a hospitable democracy. The essence | :14:58. | :15:08. | |
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of why you're here is to bring people to your face. -- faith. | :15:10. | :15:18. | |
said it might work, we are here to help everybody. We are providing a | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
service in terms of a contribution. With respect, it is all about | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
history and the history of this nation. What made sense 300 years | :15:31. | :15:41. | |
ago does not necessarily make sense today. 72% of the last census says | :15:41. | :15:50. | |
there are Christian. If you want to trade numbers, we can. The numbers | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
of people attending church has been dwindling. It doesn't mean they are | :15:55. | :16:03. | |
not Christian. My parents did not go to church. But they would have | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
been offended if anyone said they were not Christian. Let's not judge | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
people on their attendance. question wants - why does it matter | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
if the Church uses it established status? In the US, there is a | :16:19. | :16:27. | |
strict separation of church and state. It was one of the pillars of | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
the American constitution. Religious belief is much stronger | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
over there. More people go to church as the percentage of the | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
population. It is not affecting the ability of Christians to get their | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
message out there and to persuade people to follow that message. | :16:46. | :16:56. | |
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That's right. Why do you need it? It is a big if. There is a | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
significant appetite to end the automatic selection of more then | :17:03. | :17:11. | |
two dozen bishops into the House of Lords. You will find a great deal | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
of support for the present number of 26. If we're going into the | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
house, there is not a great appetite for that agenda at the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
present moment. We have more problems on our hands then we can | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
cope with. Would it be fair to say that part of the anxieties in the | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
direction of where Britain is going because you are out of step with | :17:37. | :17:46. | |
the changing court will values of the country? -- cultural values. | :17:46. | :17:54. | |
You seem very worried about how more and more Muslims are entering | :17:54. | :18:04. | |
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the country and practising their face. -- faith. When I was | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
Archbishop, I was very much in the four of welcoming was mums. That is | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
not the issue in terms of immigration. -- Muslims. I am | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
worried about the numbers are coming into our country. I believe | :18:23. | :18:33. | |
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they should be a tapping, in that sense. It kind Archbishop suggested | :18:37. | :18:44. | |
-- the kind Archbishop suggested they should be some sort of deal | :18:44. | :18:53. | |
made between British law and practices are some sectors of Islam. | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
He said they can be no accommodation. I was one of many | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
voices. I believe in any nation they should be one law that fits | :19:04. | :19:12. | |
all of us. Area, you said they should be some sort of | :19:13. | :19:22. | |
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accommodation for Christians. Even if a ran counter to what is the law. | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
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-- Earlier. You said. -- earlier, That is probably where the debate | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
was in the case of the Archbishop. You got yourself into a position | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
where you are asking for special treatment of Christians but when it | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
comes to the discussion of special treatment for Muslims you adamantly | :20:03. | :20:13. | |
reject it. No special treatment for any group, due misunderstanding. We | :20:13. | :20:23. | |
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need to protect the rights of individuals. That was my argument. | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
There is special treatment for questions. You explained it | :20:28. | :20:38. | |
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yourself. We cannot start with a blank sheet of paper. There is an | :20:41. | :20:49. | |
established church in his country. We have to work without. It is a | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
hospitable establishment. We want everyone to be treated as equal | :20:52. | :21:01. | |
citizens. How does the Church of reinvigorate itself? Over the last | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
50 years it has suffered an enormous fall in support. The book | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
addresses that question. We have to be more aggressive, we have to get | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
out there and be confident. We have to carry on serving people. We had | :21:20. | :21:30. | |
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a very good record at the moment. We believe in education. We are | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
everywhere where people are. It is interesting that you want to be | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
more aggressive. You have to be aggressive with a coherent purpose. | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
I look at statements from church leaders and I cannot decide what | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
kind of church are they think they are leading. You have been | :21:50. | :21:58. | |
supporting the coalition's government cuts in welfare benefits. | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
Meanwhile the currents archbishop has been rallying against global | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
capitalism. I did take exception with a polite way with the five | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
bishops. Typically for the people at home, the bishops in the House | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
of Lords they voted against the government's welfare benefit | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
reforms. You said they were wrong because you said the welfare system | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
has encouraged dependency. You said they wring money at people on | :22:32. | :22:42. | |
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benefits does not help. -- throwing money. My argument was not against | :22:47. | :22:57. | |
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supporting the poor. But I discreet -- disagree on two perceptions. | :22:59. | :23:07. | |
They seem to ignore the mountain of debt this country has. As a | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
Christian in the House of Lords, I felt I had the rights to give them | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
an alternative point of view. are mixed messages here. Your | :23:17. | :23:27. | |
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successor talks about the plane here. -- plain fear. He talks about | :23:31. | :23:41. | |
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how the kind policies could harm ordinary people. -- currnt policies. | :23:45. | :23:55. | |
-- current. We are allowed to have different opinions. I am now out of | :23:55. | :24:03. | |
the Church. I am an individual. I am speaking for myself. 20 years | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
from now - the the Church will be stronger or weaker? Who can say? I | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
had my book argues that if we carry on speaking out for the Christian | :24:14. | :24:18. |