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Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
Turkey is a rising power in a strategically vital region, but | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
does it have the ability to shape events beyond its borders? | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
Officials in an Karen mac would like to see turkey inside the EU | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
and provide a leadership in the Middle East. But both goals | :00:28. | :00:36. | |
remained elusive. My guess today is Turkey's Minister for the EU, | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
Egemen Bagis. Turkey is flexing its muscle, but is it having the | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :00:56. | ||
desired affect? Egemen Bagis, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
Good to be back. Turkey's message to Europe for a long time now has | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
been simple: We are a key regional power and we have major influence | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
across the Middle East. But if we look at what is happening in your | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
neighbour, Syria, today, that message does not seem to hold true. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
Well, look at what is happening in the Arab Spring today. Syria is a | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
source of inspiration. People who risked their lives in Egypt, | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
Tunisia, Libya. They wanted to turn their country like Turkey. They | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
look at Turkey and they think, look at these Turks. They have democracy, | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
they have human rights. They have opposition, they have government, | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
they have laid the unions, they have NGOs. Yet they have the same | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
culture as we do. They live in the same geography. If they can do it, | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
why can't we? And that has been a very important question for them, | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
because for the last ten years, Turkey's democracy has been getting | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
stronger. Our Prime Minister has been re-elected by his people with | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
an increased margin of vote ratio for the third time, and he has | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
tripled per-capita income in this country. He has made his country | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
much more modern, much more liveable, much richer, and much | :02:10. | :02:18. | |
more transparent. All that has an influence throughout the region. | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
it an influence? Maybe it is an inspiration, but when you look at | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
what is happening in your immediate neighbour today, in Syria, your | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
government has sent a clear message to the Assad regime, saying that in | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
effect it is time for you to go. The way you have treated you people | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
is unacceptable. We will take all measures we can fall further | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
democratic reform in Syria. And it has made no difference. As we did | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
in Tunisia, and look at what has happened. You most immediate | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
neighbour. It has made no difference. But people still know | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
that if things could change in Libya, if things could change in | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
Egypt, things could definitely changed in Syria as well. It is not | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
the Syrian President to is stopping, it is the Security Council of the | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
United Nations. Some of the permanent preservation -- permanent | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
representatives have not given him the necessary measures. I think we | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
need to work with our friends in the United Nations. We need to show | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
that the international community is united and it will not look the | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
other way when a regime is killing its own people. If we cannot accept | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
the government bombarding its own cities, killing its own people. | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
you cannot accept it, the question becomes, what are you prepared to | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
do to stop it? Build an international consensus. Any action | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
has to be multinational. We are always against unique natural | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
actions against other countries. Turkey should not act alone, | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
neither should the UK, or the US, or Russia or China. But common | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
sense has to prevail. We have to sit together, look at the | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
opportunities, look at what is available and convince the | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
leadership in Syria they are on the wrong part. Let's get practical for | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
a moment. We will come back to the UN, but on a practical level, what | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
we see right now our Syrian forces besieging Homs. We see a | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
humanitarian crisis. We see dozens of civilians reported dead over | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
months and months. The question for you in Syria is partly one of | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
practicality. Argue, for example, prepared to see weapons flow across | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
your border from Turkey into the hands of the Syrian rebel forces? | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
It depends how that decision is made. If one country claims on | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
their rain that they have the right to flow weapons, it is not logical. | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
The Syrians have accused you of turning a blind eye to weapons | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
going across your border for months. Syrians have been planed the blame | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
game for quite a while. Syria has been harbouring PKK terrorism for | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
decades. In recent years they had started to behave. Now they are | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
blaming that Turkey is behind this organisation, or that organisation, | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
this is totally false. What Turkey wants to see his piece in the | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
neighbourhood. We have a saying in Turkish. If your neighbour's house | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
is on fire and you do not put it out, but fire will eventually burn | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
down your own home. Now we are trying to prevent fires. We want | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
stability and democracy and freedom for all. We do not want to fight, | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
we do not want wars. Your government has talked about a | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
peacekeeping force. There has been a suggestion that you might be | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
proactive in that, other with some leading Arab nations, to make a | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
sort of regional force that might go into Syria. What sort of | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
practical steps have you taken to making that happen? The first | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
practical step was to accept refugees. We are accepting many | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
refugees who have fled from Syria. Up to 20,000 Syrians have found a | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
safe haven in Syria. We have one cab city where more than 8,000 | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
people have been provided with shelter, food, schools, health | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
needs. We are doing our best to help them, as their neighbour. Many | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
of our citizens have blood relations in Syria. We have been | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
living in the same geography for centuries. We care about these | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
people. We would like Syria to have their own territorial integrity, to | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
have their own democracy, to have their own richness and to live | :06:41. | :06:49. | |
happily. We are not after a war, we are not after anybody else's energy | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
resources or banned. We just want them to be happy. I understand that. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
But the reality is that nobody in Syria at the moment appears to be | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
living happily. The UN Security Council Avenue appears to be closed | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
off for now. China and Russia, for the time being, are clearly not | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
going to allow resolution which allows any sort of international | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
intervention. Then we need to convince them what the other option | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
is to stop the bloodshed. So you are saying that Turkey will not, | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
even with partners in the Arab world, will not undertake any sort | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
of intervention without an United Nations Security Council | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
resolution? I am not taking anything of the table. Everything | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
is on the table. We need to discuss in the international community, | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
with our neighbours in Syria, in the region with our Arab neighbours, | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
and we need to find a win-win solution to the problem. Because | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
people are dying. There is bloodshed and there was a sick | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
mentality that is killing their own citizens. And we need to stop this. | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
What it takes is, we need to discuss. And we cannot find that | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
solution here on HARDtalk. That, we need to find in NATO or the UN and | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
in international circles. Your message, the Turkish government's | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
message to Bashar al-Assad, is that he has to go now. And you also say | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
that he has to face justice. He has to face some sort of International | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
Criminal Court or some sort of war crimes tribunal? If he thinks he | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
has enough popularity with his own people then he can reform his | :08:27. | :08:35. | |
country. He could have fair elections. And if his people elect | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
him, fine. But if not, he has to respect the will of his own people. | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
He must respect the democratic outcome after the reforms which she | :08:43. | :08:51. | |
has been promising for decades and which he has not delivered. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
started this interview speaking about Syria even though you are the | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
European -- the Turkish minister for European affairs. Thank you for | :08:59. | :09:07. | |
reminding me. LAUGHTER. But they say that you are rising power which | :09:07. | :09:14. | |
Europe needs, that Turkey is a rising power. Europe is preoccupied | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
with so many of its own problems that it cannot see the light. It is | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
going through the turmoil of economic crisis, there is an | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
upcoming energy crisis, many politicians are terrified they will | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
lose power at the next elections. The commission is trying to keep | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
the Union together. So in that confusion, Turkey is trying to say, | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
hold on tight. Turkey is coming to your rescue. We can help. Turkey | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
coming to the rescue? The fact is that nobody wants to see Turkey | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
come through the door right now. You must be very frustrated, it has | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
been seven years since the official membership process began. What you | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
have at the moment is a completely frozen process. Only half of the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
so-called chapters, the very things which must be gone through to tick | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
the boxes for Turkey's convergence with EU standards, they have not | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
been opened up. Now a new chapter at all has opened in the last year. | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
France has blocked all negotiation about meaningful accession | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
processes. You are stuck. Would you accept that? If you look at the | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
process from a negotiation point of view, you might think it is frozen. | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
But if you look at the process in terms of Turkey's reforms for | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
democracy, for conspiracy, for prosperity, for self-confidence, | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
the reforms are faster than ever. Let me give you a few examples. | :10:37. | :10:46. | |
After a gap of 80 years, the Greek Orthodox community held services at | :10:46. | :10:56. | |
:10:56. | :10:59. | ||
Spooner monastery. -- Smyrna. For the first time since the founding | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
of the Republic, we have seen a President who has been to a place | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
of worship of the other white community. In a country where | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
people were afraid to admit that they were Kurds 20 years ago, we | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
now have 24 hours of Kurdish broadcasting on state television. | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
People of remark the region have been brought together by the Prime | :11:19. | :11:28. | |
Minister, and he has announced new programmes for them. -- Roma. At | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
the same time that France was trying to deport its robot people. | :11:35. | :11:45. | |
:11:45. | :11:45. | ||
-- Roma. You say you are reforming. Let me give you a few other | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
examples which say that is not the case. Your relationship with Cyprus | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
- and no progress whatsoever. In fact, you have defiantly refused to | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
accept the euro that's demand that you open up your ports to Cypriot | :11:58. | :12:07. | |
traffic. We are ready to do what! Hang on. You say that if Cyprus | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
assumes the EU presidency, you will freeze relations with the entire EU. | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
No, we will not freeze relations with the EU. We were just ignore | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
their presidency. It is the same thing. No, it is not the same thing. | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
We will continue our relationship with the EU and with the member | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
states. But we cannot accept that a country we do not recognise will | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
assume leadership of the hold union. I will tell you why. We are ready | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
to open our air space and support to Greek Cypriot planes, provided | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
as the EU provides its own decision. EU states unanimously agreed to put | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
an end to the isolation of Cyprus, which means treating it cypress | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
like Taiwan. Many countries do not recognise Taiwan but they still | :12:58. | :13:08. | |
:13:08. | :13:08. | ||
trade with Taiwan. But you have to accept the euro back as it is. And | :13:08. | :13:16. | |
the EU as it is includes Cyprus. The only member state implementing | :13:16. | :13:26. | |
:13:26. | :13:26. | ||
this decision is southern Cyprus. Do you think it works for Turkey to | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
issue threats to the European Union? For example, last year you | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
said that when it came to the Cypriots beginning gas exploration | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
activity in the offshore area around Cyprus, you said, it is for | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
reasons like is that countries have warships. It is for reasons like is | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
that we have the equipment and trained our may be. It almost | :13:46. | :13:56. | |
:13:56. | :13:57. | ||
sounds as though you are thinking Your country send warships all the | :13:57. | :14:04. | |
way to Argentina, so did not blame us. You want to join the club. | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
you want to join the club where there is then as? Do you want to | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
join the club which implement its own decisions? The EU has to | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
deliver on its promises. We have written guarantees. What is | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
happening in terms of the drilling, they are drooling in not | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
international waters. We have to find out who the oil and gas | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
belongs to? Does it belong to Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt? It | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
has not been decided. You say that Turkey has fundamentally changed. | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
You gave me a list of examples. I say to you, never mind a Cyprus, | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
when it comes to locking up journalists, when it comes to basic | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
freedoms of expression, Turkey has not changed. Give me the real | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
evidence. The Secretary General of the council in Europe, he was | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
recently in Turkey, he said there a 16,000 cases, 1,000 of which | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
concern media freedom. This has a chilling effect on freedom of | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
expression in your country. There is no journalist who has been | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
detained of his profession. But he caught journalists terrorists. | :15:19. | :15:28. | |
There are some of them who carry journalistic cards who had been | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
caught, robbing a bank. But they are not detained because of bribing | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
-- writing their articles. There are journalists who had written | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
much worse articles and they enjoy their right to continue doing that. | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
The Americans are deeply concerned. One person said, how can there be | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
intellectuals and journalists behind bars in a country that | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
really values freedom? I would not like to see one intellectual behind | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
any buy in any colic -- in any country. I would risk my own light | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
for them to wrist -- express their views. But being a member of the | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
media does not provide immunity to commit crimes. It sure does not in | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
Turkey. If someone is caught while robbing a bank, is summer is caught | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
while killing another, they are not going to get away just because they | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
happen to be journalists. When you come to capitals like London, you | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
talk to ministers about Turkey's continued determination to join the | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
EU, does it can say knew that international observers see Turkey | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
as 148 in a list of countries, in terms of the standards of a list of | :16:42. | :16:52. | |
free press, it has now put pokie down to 89 out of 167 countries, | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
when it comes down to basic democratic values. You are on the | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
same level as Venezuela. We are trying to fix that. I am not proud. | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
That is why we had introduced a judicial reform, that is why we are | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
trying to changed our laws. That is something that we inherited from | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
previous governments and we are trying to change that. We want the | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
people to change the constitution, and 58% of the Society supported | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
our demand for change. Only after that could wreak change the | :17:25. | :17:34. | |
structure of the judicial branch. - - we could change. You have been | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
saying for years that we are changing the judicial structure and | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
it has not happened yet. Mike government has been in power for | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
ten years. For the first 8.5 years, any time we attempted a judicial | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
decision, the court stop us. They issued its decisions to stop and | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
execution. Only after the referendum of 2010, could restart | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
are making real changes in the judicial reform. Right now, there | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
is a painting package in the Turkish parliament that is going to | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
reduce the detention period that is going to release many of the people | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
under detention. In 2005, the ratio of people in prisons was around 50- | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
50. Right now it is down to 28%. Recently, we passed a law regarding | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
bounced cheques, and 1,500 people were released. They are not | :18:29. | :18:38. | |
detained any more. 13% of the workload of the court has now gone | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
to mediators. But it is not just about the nitty-gritty of practical | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
reform, of the judiciary, it is also to do with language, the way | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
you deal with European member states. I'm thinking of France. You | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
have a profound problem with France. You have a profound problem with | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
the French parliament which took a decision to pass a new genocide law | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
which included the idea that if people deny the Armenian genocide, | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
bat will be a criminal offence in France. This is what the Prime | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
Minister of your country responded. He said, this is the politics of | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
racism and discrimination. Is that really what you think the French | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
are about when it comes to the law? We think the French constitutional | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
Court, who agreed with my prime minister, and they nullified that | :19:33. | :19:42. | |
parliamentary decision. That law no longer exists. But the fact is, | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
your Prime Minister is accusing France of being afraid of Turkey. | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
They collected signatures to take it to the High Court, and the High | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
Court agreed that the Bill is against the spirit of the French | :19:55. | :20:03. | |
Revolution. Is France afraid of Turkey? Not France, some people in | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
France are. Why on earth, after a difficult seven years, you at the | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
heart of it tried to persuade Europe to let Turkey in, why do you | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
continue with his, if you think that powerful forces in France are | :20:18. | :20:25. | |
afraid of Turkey? When a French President gets up and says, a | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
country that is aligned with the United States, a country that is | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
not European, a country that does not -- should not be in Europe, he | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
was not talking of Turkey, a French President name to Charles de Gaulle | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
was talking about the United Kingdom. Many years ago. We now say | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
the same argument used by some current French leaders against | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
Turkey. If your country does not mind fighting back and trying to | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
convince your neighbours to be a part of these grand peace project | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
or the European Union, why should my country defer? Turkey is | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
determined to be a part of the grandest piece project, which is | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
caught the European Union. But it is yet a continental peace project. | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
Turkey can turn it into a global peace project. The Prime Minister, | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
when you went to Eton is here, Egypt Mac -- Libya en Egypt, there | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
are many Western leaders who can go and talk about sex tourism and | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
democracy, but there are not too many who can do both. -- secular | :21:33. | :21:43. | |
society. The problem is you. That all these reasons why it is vital | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
for Europe and Turkey to be inside the EU, 22% of Turks have trust in | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
EU institutions, it was 51% are just a few years ago, Turks are | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
losing trust, they are losing faith, and the fact that they are losing | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
trust in an institution that is in economic crisis whereas your | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
country is growing 8% per year. They are losing trust because of | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
the narrow-minded statements by some European politicians. Europe | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
may have a problem right now in terms of their economy, but 50% of | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
my foreign trade is with Europe, 85% of foreign direct investment in | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
Turkey has come from the EU. 60% of the 32 million tourists that is a | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
turkey every year come from the EU. We do not have the right to say | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
that it is Europe's problem. We have to help Europe solve the | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
problem. For years, Turkey's big cell has | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
been at the very beginning that it could be a regional power that | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
Europe needs inside the club. The idea was that you had no problems | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
with your neighbours. Obviously, that is not true any more. We have | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
talked about Syria, the Iran, where the Iranians are supporting the | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
Assad regime much to your dislike. We can talk about Israel where your | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
relationship is in continue to decrease. You have plenty of | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
hy would Europe want to have you come | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
in when you actually now cannot even dinner but the neighbourhood? | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
We can deliver the neighbourhood. We can fix the relations with the | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
neighbours. It does not mean we will accept all kinds of atrocities | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
that our neighbours provided to dead people. You overstretched when | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
it came to Turkey's diplomatic reach. We want to transferred the | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
stability, the piece, to the neighbourhood, and we can do it | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
better up with the EU and E you can do it much better with Turkey. | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
Today's turkey is much better out than yesterday's Turkey, and | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
tomorrow will be even better. We are growing at 9%. We had a median | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
age of 28 when the median age in Europe is 44. We had access to the | :24:12. | :24:16. |