Said Ferjani - Ennahda political party, Tunisia HARDtalk


Said Ferjani - Ennahda political party, Tunisia

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cars IIZ incident was unforgivable. Warren that to come at the top of

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that. -- President Karzai said the incident. We can bring you HARDtalk

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now. HARDtalk has come to Tunisia, the

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first Arab nation to be transformed by people power. To gauge the

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success of the transition to democracy, my guest is Said Ferjani,

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a key figure in Ennahda Movement, the moderate Islamist party that

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dominates the democratically elected government. Ennahda Party

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says it is committed to building a loss of democracy. But what does

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that mean? And will Tunisia beat a model for the Arab world to follow?

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Said Ferjani, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It is now more

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than one years since President Ben Ali was overthrown. Is it fair to

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say that the euphoria of the revolution is well and truly worn

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off? I do not think so, but the expectations are high because

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people know what they expect if they get rid of President Ben Ali,

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it means that everything is going to come up here on one second.

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has not happened? The high expectation is the problem that we

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have to deal with more than it is the issues. At the end of the day

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you have problems, structural problems with the economy, with

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every area, which led to a revolution. Those problems have

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escalated to some extent in the aftermath of the revolution because

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at the end of the day we want to put back the economy on track. We

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want to have a solid, genuine democracy which is like any other

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democracy in the world. Ennahda Party, your party, the party which

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many people around the world characterised as the moderate

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Islamist party did extraordinarily well in the constitutional assembly

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elections. I think he won 41% of the vote, 90 out of 217 seats. And

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yet you refuse to characterise it as an it is almost party. Just

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explain to me why. -- Islamist party. Islamism is dogmatic,

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generating fear on others. People who are rigid and so on. We do not

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like that and that is not the reality. The reality is that,

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before I go to another point, Islamist here is any party that

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respects the references of Islam. Or they are proud of their identity.

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The word is liberalism -- the word Islamism is not really a very nice

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connotation in the minds of the people who are using it, whether in

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terms of journalists for in terms of some speeches of academics. It

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is and was one of moderate party. - - was well oriented party. Can that

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be a truly democratic party in the sense that you yourself snow from

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it many years living in exile in the West? Of course. You have

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Christian Democrats. Why did you accept democracy linked to

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Christianity, and not to Islam? However, having said that, for us,

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what we see is that we are reconciling two things within the

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minds and the culture and the approaches of academia and other

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people in the West did see them as strange to each other. In

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compatible to each other. We want to reconcile what is best in the

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West, which is democracy, as well as to be proud in the heritage of

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Islam and what is good in it. To reconcile the best of each. If it

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is a question of reconciling the best of beach, just explain exactly

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what your prime minister, your boss, meant when he told supporters at

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the end of last year, quote, we arrive in the 6th Caliphate, God

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willing. -- we are in there. Saying that suggest that he is his long-

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term ambition is to establish an Islamic Red Ed government which

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most people around the world, does not constitute Western-style

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democracy. That is understandable what you said but the reality is

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another one, which is, what he meant about the 6th Caliphate, he

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was talking to Islam must audience. He was trying to please the

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audience. Surely that is the point. You cannot face both ways at once.

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He is giving another understanding, another medium -- meaning about the

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Caliphate. You want a Caliphate? You have got one. To be clear, in a

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famous TV sermon back in 2005, an Egyptian moderate cleric, when he

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said, freedom comes before Islamic law, you absolutely agree with that,

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do you? I agree and I add, even the faith itself. To worship God you

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need pre- conditions which our knowledge and freedom. So knowledge

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and freedom should be first. -- which are. Would you therefore

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reject the proposal already put forward by one of your smaller

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partner parties, a more conservative party, who have

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specifically said that the new constitution, when formulated,

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should refer to Islamic Sharia as a principal source of legislation for

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this country? We understand very well that some people wish to have

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that. I disagree. You do not want to see a reference to Jarry as the

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source of legislation? We want really to see the identity of the

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people mentioned as Arab and who was one. These people want to

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express ideas. Nobody is asking them what is the DNA of these ideas.

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If they were caught they would be accepted. Wire are they referred to

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as this or that reference? In a way each it defines what real

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citizenship is. If there is a reference to Sharia law being the

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source of legislation, if there is a reference to the idea that the

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President must be eight Muslim citizen of the country, then you

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are creating different kinds of citizens, some who are in some ways

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first class, that is, was long, and some who are maybe not first class

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because they are not was one. It is still under discussion. If -- is a

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going to be a clear notion of secular citizenship? -- Moore's

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long. The word secular does not go very well here. We have to

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understand what is going on. President Assad is a killer. Hosni

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Mubarak is a secular. -- secular. We are more moderate than the

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French. We don't want to mention whether Islamic or would that

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Islamist or whether secular. We want deeds that are inclusive of

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everybody. There must be freedom of belief. There must be anything on

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the basis of citizenship. And that the citizen is Supreme and

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sovereign. I want Tunisia has to respect Sharia law, and respect

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your references, we're not in a position of weakness or volatility.

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You are sovereign, so you have to respect everybody. When you do that,

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this is one crucial point in terms of Sharia law itself. As you have

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said, at the end -- in the end, the test of all this comes in the

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application of law and policies, which is the right to freedom of

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expression, which your interim government, the new government, has

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been very keen rhetorically to defend, but which many Tunisians

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maybe of a more secular dent, believe is not truly being offended

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by your government. I am sorry that my government is more liberal than

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those people. I give you the evidence. We said we would not

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interfere in the closing of women. When we said that, we refused that

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any section of the society would impose its lifestyle upon another

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section of the society. You are free to cherish your lifestyle, but

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please do not interfere, or don't impose this one upon another one.

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In Tunisia, what have we got? We have got two fundamentalist secular

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us and we have fundamentalist Islam us. -- secularists. One of them

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want to impose the burka or whatever. Let me Interactive for a

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second. If you were talking about the extremely conservative, forces

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in your country, they're not just talking, they are acting. They took

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over the humanities department at one of your universities, demanding

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windier able to take examinations with the fault veil on. --

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demanding that women be able to. There is a lot of distortion with

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that story. There are students, female students who want to get

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their exams. There are about 60 girls out of 375,000 who chose to

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put on the burka. We don't encourage them but we have to

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respect them. We said we would not interfere in the choice of clothing

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of any women. My question is, I knew really prepared for a

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fundamental confrontation with the more conservative, deeply

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conservative forces in this country? Not long ago, the end of

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last year, we saw hundreds of Salafi supporters going into

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account and taking over government buildings, punishing people who

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used alcohol and many Tunisians believed your government did

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nothing to stop them, just as good by and watched. Frankly, we have

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some American journalists who came to us. We said, go there and check.

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None of these things happened. Never happened? All of these

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stories? Telling us that government buildings have been taken over,

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people being punished. This was nonsense? No. With great respect,

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we would not allow anybody from any party or any individual to impose

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the law or a section whether it is Sharia law or not. This is really

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challenging the sovereignty of the state. This is a state of matter.

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We cannot allow that to anybody. Even if somebody... It is not

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negotiable. The other thing, what is extremely important, some people

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want to push for ideological polarisation and they wish to see

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to get rid of 60 girls studying in the University of. While at the

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same time, we are protecting those girls, the choice of the girls to

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put the scarf, as long as they are peaceful. Then we are already

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committed to protect those girls who choose that. We want both sides

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to protect their lifestyles as long as we have chosen so and they are

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peaceful rather than to allow others to impose upon others their

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Tunisian politics in its moderate form supports women wearing both

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the scarf and bikinis? It is their business. Here is a more

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challenging questions. Why is it that the widely acclaimed film

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Persepolis which is an animated story about the Iranian revolution

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was aired on a television channel and as soon as it went out, the

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director of that television channel found himself in prison facing

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charges, still faces charges and could face five years in jail. Why?

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When you talk about the independence of judiciary, you

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cannot get it both ways. I challenge anybody who could put a

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finger approve even a few things that we have interviewed we have in

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the judiciary. It is sovereign. It can do whatever as long it is

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supported. Forgive me, your party is still using one of article from

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the penal code 121 which was used time and again to crush dissident

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opinion and to quell freedom of expression. Your government still

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uses it. With respect, you have the National Assembly, the

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constitutional assembly. You you must examine the issue of media as

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the hall. But you're not denying what I am saying? Journalists have

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been locked up for publishing a picture of a famous footballer with

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a semi-naked girl friend. We have got many senior journalists saying,

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they are trying to crush the pillars of civil society. But TV

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incident was not in the days of this government. Yes but I have not

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heard your government speak out against it. Something else is

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extremely important. You have freedom of belief and expression in

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any country. You must have the balance right between how to

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respect both. Let me push you on one plate. It is about the director

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of the TV channel. You have the opportunity to say to the Tunisian

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people and the Arab world that no, you think it is wrong for a

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television executive to be facing charges, potentially a long-term of

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imprisonment, because he chose to air a movie. A fiction. It happened

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to say things about the Iranian revolution, at one point it

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presented an animated image of court. Do you think that is wrong?

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To arrest and imprison some body for that? I am not in favour of any

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body to be imprisoned for his views. This is clear. Second, it is

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important within democracy had to be responsible in dealing with

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things. The film has been aired before and it did not raise any

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problems. But the translation was highly provocative, and that made

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it the problem. Let's move on to a different aspect of justice and

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choosier. Insuring that this country can stabilise and move

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forward. Kennet when there has not been any sense of justice to leave

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it for the people who suffered so much under the previous regime? Am

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thinking of yourself. You were brutally tortured and imprisoned

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for more than one year. You have described how the savage beatings

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left parents in your back broken. It's possible the people who did

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that to you are still walking the streets. They are. Do you what to

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see them pay for the crimes they committed against you? First novel,

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they are free. This gives you... We are the victims. Usually we have to

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lock them up in the jail. We did not. We will not let the debt

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market is the judiciary who deals with that. They deal with it

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separately from the resume war the government. Personally, I have

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chosen to denounce them. Why? I believe that they are part of the

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system. It was prevailing in the time of the previous regime. If it

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was not X, it would be white. taking that view, and waving a

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right to accountability, Auntie leaving Tunisia and Tunisians with

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a whole lot of unfinished Business? You might be able to rise above it

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but many of York citizens cannot. am coming to that. We have a

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victory -- transitional justice. Just as which is in place. It is

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like the conciliation Bint survive the crash. What we are interested

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in, more crucial than punishing the guilty, it is important to have

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people who never again happen to any Tunisians or any human beings.

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How? We have to know the structures and the mechanisms that led to that.

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We can make the right decisions in order to block such things

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happening again. A final thought for you. It is not about the

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attraction to new business but the attraction of the ideas that we

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have discussed. It seemed to me that you represent him movement

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which could attract attention across the Arab world, across the

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wider world, if you can make a success of what you're trying to do.

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You have called it a golden opportunity. But look around the

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neighbourhood. Look what is happening in Egypt where the

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military is very reluctant to get rid of power. Look at Syria where

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the regime is prepared to kill thousands of people. Look at the

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Gulf Arab states where monarchy's did appear interested in your

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message of democracy and reform. What makes you think that the

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Tunisian model can lead to a new Arab politics? Flores, it is a

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golden opportunity for Tunisia to do that. It is a golden opportunity

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for whoever wishes to have the same thing. We and not really trying to

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impose anything ought to export a thing. It is not a revolution for

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export. It is up to the people. Our people get find the idea. Dietrich,

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how to deal with the heavy guard and corrupted regime. -- Dietrich.

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They have dealt with it. We do not like that there'll positions, or

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people who want to change to use any kind of weapons or military

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means, because that is not the case. That is not the model of Tunisia.

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But if you grow that road, I think you would lose your soul, he would

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lose that peacefulness. The people need a peaceful and civil democracy.

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The civility would be affected. Instable peaceful democracy in

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Tunisia is what you want. Even in the end he has seen as not be right

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way to achieve it, -- if Ennahda is not seen as the right way and they

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very due out of offers, you will accept? Of course. Our main goal is

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to contribute in delivering to our people in system, a charismatic

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system but as I mentioned, a charismatic democratic system which

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