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cars IIZ incident was unforgivable. Warren that to come at the top of | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
that. -- President Karzai said the incident. We can bring you HARDtalk | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
now. HARDtalk has come to Tunisia, the | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
first Arab nation to be transformed by people power. To gauge the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
success of the transition to democracy, my guest is Said Ferjani, | :00:23. | :00:32. | |
a key figure in Ennahda Movement, the moderate Islamist party that | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
dominates the democratically elected government. Ennahda Party | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
says it is committed to building a loss of democracy. But what does | :00:39. | :00:48. | |
that mean? And will Tunisia beat a model for the Arab world to follow? | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
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Said Ferjani, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It is now more | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
than one years since President Ben Ali was overthrown. Is it fair to | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
say that the euphoria of the revolution is well and truly worn | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
off? I do not think so, but the expectations are high because | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
people know what they expect if they get rid of President Ben Ali, | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
it means that everything is going to come up here on one second. | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
has not happened? The high expectation is the problem that we | :01:51. | :01:58. | |
have to deal with more than it is the issues. At the end of the day | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
you have problems, structural problems with the economy, with | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
every area, which led to a revolution. Those problems have | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
escalated to some extent in the aftermath of the revolution because | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
at the end of the day we want to put back the economy on track. We | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
want to have a solid, genuine democracy which is like any other | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
democracy in the world. Ennahda Party, your party, the party which | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
many people around the world characterised as the moderate | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
Islamist party did extraordinarily well in the constitutional assembly | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
elections. I think he won 41% of the vote, 90 out of 217 seats. And | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
yet you refuse to characterise it as an it is almost party. Just | :02:50. | :03:00. | |
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explain to me why. -- Islamist party. Islamism is dogmatic, | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
generating fear on others. People who are rigid and so on. We do not | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
like that and that is not the reality. The reality is that, | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
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before I go to another point, Islamist here is any party that | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
respects the references of Islam. Or they are proud of their identity. | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
The word is liberalism -- the word Islamism is not really a very nice | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
connotation in the minds of the people who are using it, whether in | :03:41. | :03:51. | |
:03:51. | :03:51. | ||
terms of journalists for in terms of some speeches of academics. It | :03:51. | :04:01. | |
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is and was one of moderate party. - - was well oriented party. Can that | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
be a truly democratic party in the sense that you yourself snow from | :04:07. | :04:15. | |
it many years living in exile in the West? Of course. You have | :04:15. | :04:24. | |
Christian Democrats. Why did you accept democracy linked to | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
Christianity, and not to Islam? However, having said that, for us, | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
what we see is that we are reconciling two things within the | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
minds and the culture and the approaches of academia and other | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
people in the West did see them as strange to each other. In | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
compatible to each other. We want to reconcile what is best in the | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
West, which is democracy, as well as to be proud in the heritage of | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
Islam and what is good in it. To reconcile the best of each. If it | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
is a question of reconciling the best of beach, just explain exactly | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
what your prime minister, your boss, meant when he told supporters at | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
the end of last year, quote, we arrive in the 6th Caliphate, God | :05:24. | :05:32. | |
willing. -- we are in there. Saying that suggest that he is his long- | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
term ambition is to establish an Islamic Red Ed government which | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
most people around the world, does not constitute Western-style | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
democracy. That is understandable what you said but the reality is | :05:46. | :05:56. | |
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another one, which is, what he meant about the 6th Caliphate, he | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
was talking to Islam must audience. He was trying to please the | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
audience. Surely that is the point. You cannot face both ways at once. | :06:08. | :06:16. | |
He is giving another understanding, another medium -- meaning about the | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
Caliphate. You want a Caliphate? You have got one. To be clear, in a | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
famous TV sermon back in 2005, an Egyptian moderate cleric, when he | :06:29. | :06:36. | |
said, freedom comes before Islamic law, you absolutely agree with that, | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
do you? I agree and I add, even the faith itself. To worship God you | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
need pre- conditions which our knowledge and freedom. So knowledge | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
and freedom should be first. -- which are. Would you therefore | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
reject the proposal already put forward by one of your smaller | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
partner parties, a more conservative party, who have | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
specifically said that the new constitution, when formulated, | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
should refer to Islamic Sharia as a principal source of legislation for | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
this country? We understand very well that some people wish to have | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
that. I disagree. You do not want to see a reference to Jarry as the | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
source of legislation? We want really to see the identity of the | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
people mentioned as Arab and who was one. These people want to | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
express ideas. Nobody is asking them what is the DNA of these ideas. | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
If they were caught they would be accepted. Wire are they referred to | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
as this or that reference? In a way each it defines what real | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
citizenship is. If there is a reference to Sharia law being the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
source of legislation, if there is a reference to the idea that the | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
President must be eight Muslim citizen of the country, then you | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
are creating different kinds of citizens, some who are in some ways | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
first class, that is, was long, and some who are maybe not first class | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
because they are not was one. It is still under discussion. If -- is a | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
going to be a clear notion of secular citizenship? -- Moore's | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
long. The word secular does not go very well here. We have to | :08:29. | :08:38. | |
understand what is going on. President Assad is a killer. Hosni | :08:38. | :08:48. | |
:08:48. | :08:55. | ||
Mubarak is a secular. -- secular. We are more moderate than the | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
French. We don't want to mention whether Islamic or would that | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
Islamist or whether secular. We want deeds that are inclusive of | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
everybody. There must be freedom of belief. There must be anything on | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
the basis of citizenship. And that the citizen is Supreme and | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
sovereign. I want Tunisia has to respect Sharia law, and respect | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
your references, we're not in a position of weakness or volatility. | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
You are sovereign, so you have to respect everybody. When you do that, | :09:39. | :09:47. | |
this is one crucial point in terms of Sharia law itself. As you have | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
said, at the end -- in the end, the test of all this comes in the | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
application of law and policies, which is the right to freedom of | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
expression, which your interim government, the new government, has | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
been very keen rhetorically to defend, but which many Tunisians | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
maybe of a more secular dent, believe is not truly being offended | :10:13. | :10:21. | |
by your government. I am sorry that my government is more liberal than | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
those people. I give you the evidence. We said we would not | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
interfere in the closing of women. When we said that, we refused that | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
any section of the society would impose its lifestyle upon another | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
section of the society. You are free to cherish your lifestyle, but | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
please do not interfere, or don't impose this one upon another one. | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
In Tunisia, what have we got? We have got two fundamentalist secular | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
us and we have fundamentalist Islam us. -- secularists. One of them | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
want to impose the burka or whatever. Let me Interactive for a | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
second. If you were talking about the extremely conservative, forces | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
in your country, they're not just talking, they are acting. They took | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
over the humanities department at one of your universities, demanding | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
windier able to take examinations with the fault veil on. -- | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
demanding that women be able to. There is a lot of distortion with | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
that story. There are students, female students who want to get | :11:38. | :11:48. | |
:11:48. | :11:50. | ||
their exams. There are about 60 girls out of 375,000 who chose to | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
put on the burka. We don't encourage them but we have to | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
respect them. We said we would not interfere in the choice of clothing | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
of any women. My question is, I knew really prepared for a | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
fundamental confrontation with the more conservative, deeply | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
conservative forces in this country? Not long ago, the end of | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
last year, we saw hundreds of Salafi supporters going into | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
account and taking over government buildings, punishing people who | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
used alcohol and many Tunisians believed your government did | :12:27. | :12:36. | |
nothing to stop them, just as good by and watched. Frankly, we have | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
some American journalists who came to us. We said, go there and check. | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
None of these things happened. Never happened? All of these | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
stories? Telling us that government buildings have been taken over, | :12:49. | :12:57. | |
people being punished. This was nonsense? No. With great respect, | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
we would not allow anybody from any party or any individual to impose | :13:02. | :13:10. | |
the law or a section whether it is Sharia law or not. This is really | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
challenging the sovereignty of the state. This is a state of matter. | :13:14. | :13:22. | |
We cannot allow that to anybody. Even if somebody... It is not | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
negotiable. The other thing, what is extremely important, some people | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
want to push for ideological polarisation and they wish to see | :13:33. | :13:41. | |
to get rid of 60 girls studying in the University of. While at the | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
same time, we are protecting those girls, the choice of the girls to | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
put the scarf, as long as they are peaceful. Then we are already | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
committed to protect those girls who choose that. We want both sides | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
to protect their lifestyles as long as we have chosen so and they are | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
peaceful rather than to allow others to impose upon others their | :14:08. | :14:18. | |
:14:18. | :14:19. | ||
Tunisian politics in its moderate form supports women wearing both | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
the scarf and bikinis? It is their business. Here is a more | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
challenging questions. Why is it that the widely acclaimed film | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
Persepolis which is an animated story about the Iranian revolution | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
was aired on a television channel and as soon as it went out, the | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
director of that television channel found himself in prison facing | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
charges, still faces charges and could face five years in jail. Why? | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
When you talk about the independence of judiciary, you | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
cannot get it both ways. I challenge anybody who could put a | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
finger approve even a few things that we have interviewed we have in | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
the judiciary. It is sovereign. It can do whatever as long it is | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
supported. Forgive me, your party is still using one of article from | :15:19. | :15:27. | |
the penal code 121 which was used time and again to crush dissident | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
opinion and to quell freedom of expression. Your government still | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
uses it. With respect, you have the National Assembly, the | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
constitutional assembly. You you must examine the issue of media as | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
the hall. But you're not denying what I am saying? Journalists have | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
been locked up for publishing a picture of a famous footballer with | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
a semi-naked girl friend. We have got many senior journalists saying, | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
they are trying to crush the pillars of civil society. But TV | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
incident was not in the days of this government. Yes but I have not | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
heard your government speak out against it. Something else is | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
extremely important. You have freedom of belief and expression in | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
any country. You must have the balance right between how to | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
respect both. Let me push you on one plate. It is about the director | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
of the TV channel. You have the opportunity to say to the Tunisian | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
people and the Arab world that no, you think it is wrong for a | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
television executive to be facing charges, potentially a long-term of | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
imprisonment, because he chose to air a movie. A fiction. It happened | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
to say things about the Iranian revolution, at one point it | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
presented an animated image of court. Do you think that is wrong? | :17:02. | :17:09. | |
To arrest and imprison some body for that? I am not in favour of any | :17:09. | :17:19. | |
body to be imprisoned for his views. This is clear. Second, it is | :17:19. | :17:25. | |
important within democracy had to be responsible in dealing with | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
things. The film has been aired before and it did not raise any | :17:30. | :17:39. | |
problems. But the translation was highly provocative, and that made | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
it the problem. Let's move on to a different aspect of justice and | :17:45. | :17:55. | |
:17:55. | :17:55. | ||
choosier. Insuring that this country can stabilise and move | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
forward. Kennet when there has not been any sense of justice to leave | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
it for the people who suffered so much under the previous regime? Am | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
thinking of yourself. You were brutally tortured and imprisoned | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
for more than one year. You have described how the savage beatings | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
left parents in your back broken. It's possible the people who did | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
that to you are still walking the streets. They are. Do you what to | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
see them pay for the crimes they committed against you? First novel, | :18:31. | :18:39. | |
they are free. This gives you... We are the victims. Usually we have to | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
lock them up in the jail. We did not. We will not let the debt | :18:46. | :18:54. | |
market is the judiciary who deals with that. They deal with it | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
separately from the resume war the government. Personally, I have | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
chosen to denounce them. Why? I believe that they are part of the | :19:06. | :19:15. | |
system. It was prevailing in the time of the previous regime. If it | :19:15. | :19:23. | |
was not X, it would be white. taking that view, and waving a | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
right to accountability, Auntie leaving Tunisia and Tunisians with | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
a whole lot of unfinished Business? You might be able to rise above it | :19:31. | :19:40. | |
but many of York citizens cannot. am coming to that. We have a | :19:40. | :19:50. | |
:19:50. | :19:53. | ||
victory -- transitional justice. Just as which is in place. It is | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
like the conciliation Bint survive the crash. What we are interested | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
in, more crucial than punishing the guilty, it is important to have | :20:04. | :20:12. | |
people who never again happen to any Tunisians or any human beings. | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
How? We have to know the structures and the mechanisms that led to that. | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
We can make the right decisions in order to block such things | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
happening again. A final thought for you. It is not about the | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
attraction to new business but the attraction of the ideas that we | :20:34. | :20:42. | |
have discussed. It seemed to me that you represent him movement | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
which could attract attention across the Arab world, across the | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
wider world, if you can make a success of what you're trying to do. | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
You have called it a golden opportunity. But look around the | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
neighbourhood. Look what is happening in Egypt where the | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
military is very reluctant to get rid of power. Look at Syria where | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
the regime is prepared to kill thousands of people. Look at the | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Gulf Arab states where monarchy's did appear interested in your | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
message of democracy and reform. What makes you think that the | :21:23. | :21:32. | |
Tunisian model can lead to a new Arab politics? Flores, it is a | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
golden opportunity for Tunisia to do that. It is a golden opportunity | :21:36. | :21:45. | |
for whoever wishes to have the same thing. We and not really trying to | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
impose anything ought to export a thing. It is not a revolution for | :21:50. | :21:59. | |
export. It is up to the people. Our people get find the idea. Dietrich, | :21:59. | :22:07. | |
how to deal with the heavy guard and corrupted regime. -- Dietrich. | :22:07. | :22:15. | |
They have dealt with it. We do not like that there'll positions, or | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
people who want to change to use any kind of weapons or military | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
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means, because that is not the case. That is not the model of Tunisia. | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
But if you grow that road, I think you would lose your soul, he would | :22:38. | :22:47. | |
lose that peacefulness. The people need a peaceful and civil democracy. | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
The civility would be affected. Instable peaceful democracy in | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
Tunisia is what you want. Even in the end he has seen as not be right | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
way to achieve it, -- if Ennahda is not seen as the right way and they | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
very due out of offers, you will accept? Of course. Our main goal is | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
to contribute in delivering to our people in system, a charismatic | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
system but as I mentioned, a charismatic democratic system which | :23:25. | :23:32. |