Browse content similar to Lord Prescott - Deputy Prime Minister, 1997-2007. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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updated on out breaking news coming from Toulouse. But now it is time | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
for HARDtalk. Politics is a rough business. My guest has the scars to | :00:11. | :00:21. | |
:00:21. | :00:24. | ||
prove it. John Prescott, now Lord Prescott, was Deputy Prime Minister | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
during the prime ministership of Tony Blair. During his time in that | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Labour government, his phone was hacked by an investigator working | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
for the News of the World. The hacking scandal has prompted a | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
fierce debate on the press, the police and the practice of politics. | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :01:05. | ||
When the talk is done, what will John Prescott, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
Are you confident that the media culture that led to the widespread | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
phone hacking that we now know about has been banished for good? | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
wish I could say yes to that. I don't think the media is going to | :01:20. | :01:29. | |
change. The social network system has taken readers away from them | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
and they are desperate to keep that up front. They want to keep the | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
:01:43. | :01:46. | ||
influence on politicians. Murdoch has not changed this for some he | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
want favours from politicians. It is absolutely crucial that the | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
Leveson committee recommends fundamental change and politicians | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
have got the guts to implement it. We should explain - the Leveson | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
committee sees a senior judge leading an inquiry into the | :01:58. | :02:08. | |
:02:08. | :02:09. | ||
practices of the press and considering how it could change. | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
Does there have to be fundamental change? There needs to be greater | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
transparency and accountability. The press took the view that | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
whatever they did, they were the ones to make the judgement. | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
Unfortunately my own government in 1997 did not bring in an | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
independent press complaints procedure. They have had a separate | :02:33. | :02:40. | |
one which they control as editors and it has led to this. Nothing | :02:40. | :02:49. | |
like this would have happened if that was implemented. That is what | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
is so curious. There were criminal acts and when they first found out | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
they said it was one reporter, one paper. The law is there to prevent | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
that happening. You can implement the law. In many cases I wanted to | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
sue the press against something said about me as a liar. They said, | :03:08. | :03:18. | |
:03:18. | :03:22. | ||
"Well, sue us". They have all the money and the resources. To be able | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
to do that and not pay the bill. The press have been lying and have | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
had content with influence over politicians and within the police. | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
You keep referring to the press. These are allegations that centre | :03:38. | :03:45. | |
on the News of the World from the years 2000 to 2007. I do not think | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
it is just the News of the World. It was the Times that said they | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
misled the judge, did not give the full information. Other newspapers, | :03:55. | :04:05. | |
:04:05. | :04:08. | ||
sometimes the television as well. I hope they will open that up so we | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
can get a clear and transparent idea of what has happened. The fact | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
is that the News of the World is dead, finished and gone. If people | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
like Rupert Murdoch learn lessons, surely that is more powerful as a | :04:21. | :04:31. | |
:04:31. | :04:32. | ||
motivator. He has the Sun on Sunday, a newspaper in place of it, run by | :04:32. | :04:41. | |
the same people. You have had an apology. It was difficult to get an | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
apology, I was able to pursue them without having to cover the cost. | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
On the judicial inquiries I brought about, the first was opposed by the | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
police and then... We will get to the police in a moment. They all | :05:00. | :05:10. | |
:05:10. | :05:10. | ||
lied! Why did you settle with the Murdoch empire in the end? Why did | :05:11. | :05:19. | |
you agree? I went through judicial review. I wanted the police to | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
admit they were wrong, hiding the evidence. The civic case, a group | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
of people and they settled and found they had to make an apology. | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
That was after lying, hiding evidence, denying everything. It | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
did not come freely. When we got to the stage of them settling damages, | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
they knew they were breaking the law day and night, in contempt of | :05:47. | :05:57. | |
:05:57. | :05:59. | ||
it and trying to hide it. Mr Murdoch is still there. Some of the | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
allegations you have made are being investigated by the police. They | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
have to make major investigations. Until they have published their | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
findings we can't be sure exactly what is an allegation and what is | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
the truth. That is true. But all of the evidence came from the | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
newspapers themselves. The police forced them, they did not give the | :06:20. | :06:30. | |
:06:30. | :06:30. | ||
information willingly. Even Mr Murdoch denied it to the | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
parliamentary committee. These are not people who are really sorry. | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
Your passion is obvious. How far do you believe the change has to go? | :06:40. | :06:49. | |
You talk about ending voluntary codes of conduct. Do you want to | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
see a statutory body with very tough rules and a register for | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
journalists, like doctors and other professionals, so if they misbehave | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
they are passed up, struck off? you are talking about the Press | :07:01. | :07:11. | |
:07:11. | :07:13. | ||
Complaints Commission, that was totally... Everybody accepts that | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
now. They did not before. We have to change it. We made the mistake | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
not making them independent. The press argued for, they wanted | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
control of the body. Now we must go back to a regulated framework where | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
the Press Complaints Commission can take up action against the press | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
themselves. These are the frameworks being considered at the | :07:37. | :07:47. | |
:07:47. | :07:48. | ||
moment. It has to be independent, it has to have sanctions. Maybe | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
people watching this around the world would wish that their own | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
media culture was as free as that of Britain. They wonder if there is | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
a danger that the very essence of the British press, that it is free | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
to ask difficult questions and difficult investigations, that the | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
:08:12. | :08:13. | ||
spirit could be lost. In Bristol they found a person and said they | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
are guilty and stuck them on the front of the papers... I can quote | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
you many of the triumphs of investigative journalism... | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
they accountable for what they put on their pages? No, they are not. | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
If they get an apology they put it on page 22. We need to get an | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
understanding of fairness. The press have shown themselves to be | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
utterly contemptuous of law and regulation. We want an independent | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
body to give an independent assessment. Those with a complaint | :08:52. | :09:02. | |
should be able to go to a body that they can have confidence in. Do you | :09:02. | :09:10. | |
except that Michael Gove said the danger is? He says the cure could | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
be worse than the disease. In the end we undermine our freedom of the | :09:17. | :09:27. | |
:09:27. | :09:28. | ||
press by trying to control it. do you decide, who is the one that | :09:28. | :09:38. | |
:09:38. | :09:43. | ||
says "That is a breach of that person's privacy?" The press argue | :09:43. | :09:52. | |
it should be the editors. Our law says it should be a judge. What do | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
you prefer? I prefer a judge. mention privacy and it is a grey | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
area. I imagine thinking of your own case - you have been open that | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
you had an affair, a sexual relationship with another member of | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
staff in your department when you were a minister, going back to 2002. | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
In the end it was a splash story in the newspapers in 2006. Under your | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
new institutions, guarantees of privacy, are you saying it should | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
privacy, are you saying it should have been kept out? I have to face | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
have been kept out? I have to face up to the consequences, have to be | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
accountable, I don't have a problem. When there is a clear breach of | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
someone's rights... You had no problem... I had an affair, if you | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
like, with this person which the press found out about and then sold | :10:43. | :10:53. | |
:10:53. | :10:55. | ||
the story. You talk about private rights - they buy those stories, | :10:55. | :11:05. | |
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they sell them every day of the week. It takes eight willing seller. | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
== a. In this case the woman you had an affair with was a willing | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
seller. I did not complain about that. I did not object. What I say | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
when there is a breach, there should be an independent assessment | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
if you are complaining against it. The present Press Complaints | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
Commission accepted all of the arguments of the media, this was a | :11:32. | :11:42. | |
:11:42. | :11:43. | ||
rogue story and a rogue paper. talk about the cosy relationship | :11:43. | :11:53. | |
:11:53. | :11:54. | ||
newspapers and politicians have had. Would you agree that Tony Blair was | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
one of the prime examples of politicians too close to media | :11:57. | :12:07. | |
:12:07. | :12:19. | ||
barons? Yes. Are used to tell him that. -- buy. -- I. The same for | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
Gordon Brown as well. These people - I will have nothing to do with | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
them. They are seeking influence for their own interest. Politicians | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
tend to believe... I believe it gets too close. When you learnt in | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
2010 that Tony Blair went to Jordan to participate in a christening | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
ceremony for one of Rupert Murdoch's daughters and was | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
nominated as godfather, at the same time you were digging into the | :12:38. | :12:48. | |
:12:48. | :12:53. | ||
Murdoch papers intercepting your phone calls, what did you feel? | :12:53. | :13:00. | |
kept saying the same to all people I had close contact with. I even | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
said to David Cameron that he was too close to Murdoch. You work with | :13:07. | :13:17. | |
:13:17. | :13:20. | ||
Tony Blair. How do you feel about I would rather tease out your | :13:20. | :13:29. | |
feelings. I told them time and time again. For example, in the | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
relationship between Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, it was a sensitive | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
one. Tony Blair used to tell me something that Brown was really | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
saying because he had met someone who had dinner with him. Rebekah | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
Brooks used to play these two off each other. I used to say to them, | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
why do you take any notice of her for? It was the relationship of | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
feeling that Murdoch was powerful and producing the possibility of | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
They took more notice of her than they did have you. You're asking me | :14:03. | :14:12. | |
about the Murdoch influence. I was wondering about the sense of | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
betrayal you probably now have? have spent 40 years in politics. I | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
call the issue as I see it. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
but I never give up saying what I believe. You also believe that the | :14:24. | :14:33. | |
Met Police lied to you for years. That is what is going out in the | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
Leveson Inquiry. They used to say that there was no tapping, then the | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
police came along saying, we have a new inquiry and you have had your | :14:41. | :14:49. | |
phone tapped 44 times. What do you say to that? There is one aspect | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
that intrigues me. A senior Scotland Yard officer told the Home | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
Secretary at the time that you and a few other Cabinet ministers were | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
under surveillance from private investigators working for News of | :14:59. | :15:09. | |
:15:09. | :15:14. | ||
the World. You never knew that. I did not. You read the papers, he | :15:14. | :15:24. | |
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denied it. It is not just a question of him, but notes were | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
sent to the cabinet officers and MI5. Mr Clarke said it was more | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
important to pursue terrorism. Nobody could be killed by listening | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
to a message on a phone. He said his problem was security. So the | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
judge said, why did you not tell us that Prescott was a name on the | :15:44. | :15:52. | |
inquiry? The inspector said, we'd better investigate. Somebody said | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
no. Clarkson said, it is not my job to tell Prescott so he told the | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
government. He sent me e-mails that he sent to the government. He was | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
looking into it. But did your government cover this | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
up because they wanted to retain a warm relationship with Murdoch? | :16:11. | :16:19. | |
do not think for a second. What do you think about that one? I don't | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
act without evidence. Everything I've given you, I quote the | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
evidence for you. In this case, Mr Clarke is said that, Mr Reid said | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
no, if they did know it was a Cabinet member, his job would be to | :16:33. | :16:43. | |
:16:43. | :16:44. | ||
tell the Prime Minister. Mr Levison said has now asked for the emails. | :16:44. | :16:54. | |
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He will no doubt get to the bottom of it. A final thought on the | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
police. You have decided to run as a police Commissioner, one of the | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
newly elected ones come November. In the past, you have expressed | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
grave doubts about politicising the police by putting elected officials | :17:12. | :17:22. | |
:17:22. | :17:22. | ||
into the system. So why on earth do you now want the job? Look at it | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
this way. I have seen what I have seen between the met police and | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
politicians there may well be a framework of corruption. I do not | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
think that should happen. putting a partisan politician on | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
top of the police will solve the problem? Isn't the Home Secretary a | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
partisan and politician? But he does not get involved in day-to-day | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
police activities. We will see how far police are involved in this | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
process. The chief commissioner was having lunch with the people he was | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
investigating. That is quite unusual. They have now decided they | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
will be an election. We as a party and have decided we will contest | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
this. We will fight the elections and to try to make that new | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
framework between the police and community and to become the voice | :18:14. | :18:24. | |
:18:24. | :18:25. | ||
of the community. I will have a go at that. Your own constituency | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
might be quite confused because not long ago, you said you opposed the | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
idea of bettering the operational independence with an elected | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
official, and now you say, the police argue that what they do is | :18:35. | :18:45. | |
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operational and politicians should not be involved. You are confused. | :18:46. | :18:56. | |
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Let me explain. Give me a chance to explain. The police have the right | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
of operational functions. Here are committees, should they have | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
everything or do you want someone responsible for the community, do | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
you not negotiate would you think the priorities are? Secondly, in my | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
judicial review, the judge told the police that they should always | :19:14. | :19:24. | |
:19:24. | :19:24. | ||
inform anybody they had evidence of criminal acts against them. The | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
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judge has now intervened with that. That is between the Chief of Police | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
and the man who is the elected Commissioner. Between them, they | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
have reduced the plan. That will be the new police policy. You will run | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
on a Labour ticket for the police Commissioner job. But you are seen | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
as one of the most tribal Labour warriors of the last 20 years. | :19:57. | :20:06. | |
Labour is in a mess. Why are they behind the Tories in the polls? | :20:06. | :20:15. | |
is not unusual to be behind in the polls at this present stage. And | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
please let me answer. Give me the courtesy of having a reply. I am | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
saying first of all, it is not unusual for a new leader to be | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
behind. It is up to them to begin to establish their personality, he | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
is right to say, let us see that new framework and he is working on | :20:34. | :20:42. | |
it. It is a big challenge at this point. David Miliband, brother of | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
Ed Miliband, says Labour can't go back to its old ideas of the big | :20:46. | :20:56. | |
:20:56. | :20:57. | ||
state. He says it has to be a party which appeals to business. Right | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
now, business is not backing Labour. Ed Miliband said that first. There | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
were all surprised when he said that at the conference. Now David | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
is coming along when all this was done. He should get a bit more | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
behind the party. But to do you think that analysis is right? There | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
seems to be debate in the party. There are some people calling it | :21:23. | :21:33. | |
:21:33. | :21:33. | ||
class war. It is all about class. Is it? Reducing the benefits of | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
people who are the poorest in society, letting the bankers go | :21:36. | :21:46. | |
:21:46. | :21:47. | ||
free, reducing 50p, it sounds like class warfare to me. The rich are | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
better off, the poor are worse off. Are you saying that Britain is as | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
class-based as it was when you enter politics? Yes! Don't you | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
understand that? Let me give you an example. Look at our education | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
system. 7% of our children go into private schools. They get into the | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
top universities, and all the top jobs in the banks and in insurance | :22:17. | :22:24. | |
from that very small base of 7%. Why do think that comes about? Are | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
those 7% just better educated or is it the old school tie? So what has | :22:31. | :22:39. | |
13 years of Labour actually achieved? Will you settle for 2 | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
million more jobs? More money into hospitals and education? That is | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
what I came into politics for. Now the opposite is happening. We're | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
back to 3 million unemployed. is suggesting to me that New Labour | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
did not change the fundamentals of British economics and society. | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
was beginning to change it. Look of the differential between the north | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
and the south economically. We improved it but if you are asking | :23:10. | :23:20. | |
:23:20. | :23:26. |