Frank Chikane - South African Head of Presidency, 1999 - 2009 HARDtalk


Frank Chikane - South African Head of Presidency, 1999 - 2009

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He served in the South African presidential office in the time of

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Nelson Mandela and Jacob Zuma. He was privy to what went on behind

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the scenes. Now Frank she can't has a unburden himself in a new book in

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which she describes for the first time his recount of the removal of

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the President. He said it was a painful time for Mr Mbeki and

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exposed the deep rivalry at the heart of the ruling ANC, which

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continues to be divided today. As the ANC become so riven with

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factionalism in corruption that it Frank Chikane, welcome to HARDtalk.

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The whole world was stunned when Thabo Mbeki resigned unexpectedly

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as president in 2008. Why did he go, in your view? His party recalled in

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it and he decided that he was not going to resist the recall of his

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party. You may recall that Mr Mbeki grew up in the ANC, but did not

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spend much time with the family except the ANC. When the ANC made

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the decision that he should be recalled, he decided that he should

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resign. Record it basically means that the ends of the ANC met in

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Saddam back and said, we want you to leave. How did he feel? He must

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have been devastated? Of course it was a painful experience. He did

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not expect it to happen the way that it happened. He had only seven

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months before he ended his term and was planning for celebrations and

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fare well functions. Then a decision was made seven months

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before. It was a shock, but as you would go, the character of Mr Mbeki

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is not all of one who shows emotions. He took it as it came and

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then resigned. He left office in dignity. You would Director General

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to the presidency, effectively chief of staff. You have there

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behind the scenes. Discard the atmosphere it to us when he

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realised he had to go? The decision was made after midnight on that

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particular Friday. We decided that we would not wake him up to tell

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him about the decision. I went to him early in the morning with the

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senior staff to get him to note that the decision had been made.

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The delegation of the ANC was going to formally met him that -- let him

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know that it happened. He took it in a Cormac way and did not react

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emotionally. -- Cormack. Then he said, yes I am going to leave, but

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there are two things you have to advise on. Firstly, is there a

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constitutionally way of doing it? And secondly, what happens with the

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programmes that he was supposed to undertake in the next few days.

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That's all he discussed with them. After that, they can back and said,

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yes, we can go through the constitutional processes, but he

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could not continue with some of his activities. That was a bit of a

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challenge. If you say to a President, you cannot continue with

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certain activities before you resign, you could be seen to be

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interfering with the work of the President. Anyway, he was ready to

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leave and did not resist. Did you want him to change his mind? Did

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anybody tried to get into changed his mind? No, we did not. Actually,

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he was concerned about his legacy. He spent lots of time on the

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African renaissance project, to renew the African continent. To

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make sure there was peace and there would be development. He said that

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he would not like his problem at the party to destabilise the

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country and he would rather leave them to destabilise the party. He

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never really resisted. I think the challenge was more about the

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procedures and processors, which I had to manage. For instance, when

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does he do there his letter of resignation? Where does he do but

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it's too? In terms of our constitution, the President is

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elected by Parliament and so his resignation has to be delivered to

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Parliament. Then the next was when does he delivered the letter? We

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thought it would be better to consult with Parliament and after

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consulting its lawyers he would then determine what is the most

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constitutional way of doing it. write in your book about the

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resignation that the reality was that the drive to remove President

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Mbeki was motivated by Intra party issues. What do you mean by that?

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Was somebody trying to orchestrate his removal? It so, who? It was

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more of a party challenge, rather than government. I do see in the

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book that actually the contradiction is that at the point

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at which she was removed, the government was performing well.

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will come to his legacy in a minute. I just want to ask you, why do you

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think that, as you imply, Thabo Mbeki was effectively bundled out

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of office seven months before his second term expired? You describe

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it as deli humiliating for the President and most people would

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agree. Why did it come to that? was just putting context into which

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to say that it was unexpected because it was unnecessary. It had

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to do with a challenge just within the party. -- challengers within

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the party. By 2003, one man was charged by fraud and when the

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judgement was passed Barack Obama - - past... You're talking to the

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corruption charges relating to the arms dealer. He was found guilty

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and Jacob Zuma was acquitted. you simplify it for as? Who do you

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think was presenting these challenges to Thabo Mbeki? Was a

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faction, was it being orchestrated by an individual? I think there are

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people within the party who are not happy about the removal of the

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Deputy President from office. Jacob Zuma. Yes, the current

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president. At that point he was deputy president. He was removed

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from cabinet by President Mbeki and that made members of the ANC

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unhappy, but what happened next is that Jacob Zuma was charged with

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corruption and bad even angered some people because they thought

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Mbeki was involved in that incident. That was the accusation being

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levelled against the Mbeki. In June 2005, Mbeki asked Jacob Zuma to

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step down, but more than that, the accusation was that he was involved

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in those corruption charges being brought against Jacob Zuma. Was he,

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in your view? I do not know. That is the problem. The problem is that

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there are charges against the President. There is a finding in

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the court that implicates him and then the national director for

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public prosecution decided to charge him, but the average citizen

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would understand a state case against the President. You would

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say no, but I did not prefer the charges against him. I think that

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is what the date -- debate would be. I put it to you. You still have not

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answered my question about the orchestration of the challenged to

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Thabo Mbeki. You say supporters of Sir Mark, I ask you if you think

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Jacobs's simmer was somehow involved? Of busy people were

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campaigning for him and defending him. Obviously. They took up the

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campaign with him. It was not like something that happened outside.

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You are accusing Jacob Zuma, the current presenter of South Africa,

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of having orchestrated the moves which eventually... No, I am not.

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So, these people are just acting on behalf of Jacob Zuma without his

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knowledge? Bell, I would not want to use the word orchestrated. They

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worked with him together. They worked to campaign against Mbeki.

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Especially during the trial against him. People mobilised on the basis

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of that. Judge Chris Nicholson in September 2008, in a ruling about

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the Jacob Zuma corruption case, talk about the Titanic power

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struggle between Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki. As he put it, the

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rivalry between them is hard the open to question and the

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polarisation of the country into opposing camps before and after the

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conference is well-known. The rivalry, is this what this is all

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about? A personal rivalry between Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki? Are we

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not say personal. There were tensions. But they always denied

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that it was a rivalry amongst them. The fact is that at the end, the

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unhappiness blew up to a level where the African National Congress,

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in its conference, made a decision to vote for Jacob Zuma as President

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of the ANC against Thabo Mbeki. me put it into context here. You

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are talking about the ANC national conference in December 2007, when

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Jacob Zuma was elected President of the ANC, defeating Thabo Mbeki. You

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said a moment ago that you would not say it rivalry between the two

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men, but you talk about tensions. Give me an example of the kind of

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tensions between the two there you are referring to. Part of the

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problem was that they denied that they had problems themselves. They

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also denied that the attention are amongst themselves. You just said

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there was tension. Kidney example. What did you see? Detention was

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that there was unhappiness about being charged for corruption. --

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him being charged. They believed Mbeki was responsible for those

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charges. In fact they also believe that he could but trawl those

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charges. Some people believed that he could intervene pit-stop the

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trial. In our constitution, it said that that could not be done. People

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got angry and compared our constitution that the British

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constitution, the French, the Americans. They gave examples about

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what heads of states could do. In in a situation, you could not do

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that. So there was unhappiness and it led to Mbeki being voted out and

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There were no ideological differences? It was simply because

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of the corruption charges? There were no ideological differences.

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different visions of how South Africa could develop? Deficient is

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embodied in the African National Congress. There were no changes in

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the congress at which they voted. It was not an ideological issue.

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There were differences within the party. You paint a sympathetic

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portrait of Thabo Mbeki in your vote. It was almost a coup guitar.

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-- coup. You have set out the fact that the tensions the back to the

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fact that Jacob Zuma became president of the ANC. A lot of

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people were unhappy when the Thabo Mbeki try to become president for a

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third term. They thought he would try and wield influence behind the

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scenes and undermine never would-be president. Is that not a valid

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criticism? This was a democracy. There was no constitution that

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restrained any presidential nominee. There was no constitutional matter.

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The problem was that when the tensions developed. There was and

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happiness. -- unhappiness. If he continued as president of the ANC

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he might continue to influence processes within government or even

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within the party. Wouldn't that have undermined anyone who became

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President? He would have had two centres of power. Was Thabo Mbeki

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so addicted to power that he wanted to remain at the centre? That was

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not my understanding of what he was about. He was committed to making

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sure that this country was governed properly. It was not about

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influencing. In normal circumstances it would not be an

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issue at all. He could have been president. He became president of

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the ANC as well as being President of the party. Yet here he was

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trying to prevent his success so retaining presidency of the ANC. --

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successor. The decision was controversial and not in accordance

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with the Westminster system that was as Faust in the country. -- is

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Faust. That would be a wrong approach. It can be a faces on

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which you could assess the politics. -- faces. You have a lot of

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commentators saying the same thing. We should not use Nicholson's

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judgement. He came in and made a judgement that was ruled out. There

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was no constitutional problem for any member of the ANC to serve as

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president as long as the people collect that President. -- elect.

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Jacob Zuma was far more popular in the ANC than Thabo Mbeki. He won

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more than 60% of the nearly 4,000 votes to become president of the

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ANC. Just moving on and asking you... Let me just make it Clare,

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there is no debate on whether or not Jacob Zuma won the election.

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There was a democratic process. Any body can stand for an election.

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Just as Jacob Zuma won the election, he continued being President.

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just explains the reasons that led it itMbeki's early

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resignation. Why did you decide to publish this book? I decided before

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and left government that I was going to write a book. I asked for

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permission to access information. I decided to leave before Thabo Mbeki

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left. I talked to Jacob Zuma. He knew I would write a book about the

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things I could not say. The other would be an academic text to be

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used in schools. I started writing the book three months after I left

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government, in September. My intention was to publish that book

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at the beginning of 2010. Unfortunately I could not get a

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publisher. I started long ago to write the book. You set up what to

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believe is your account. Looking at Thabo Mbeki's legacy. You said that

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he was very keen to protect his legacy. There are those who say

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that his legacy was not a great one to protect. Look at his domestic

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policy. In the years he was president, the gap between the rich

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and poor or widened. Is that a great legacy? You cannot face the

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legacy of a President on the gap between the rich and poor. You have

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to look at the policies. These were ANC policies. These were not

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necessarily policies of an individual, but policies of a party.

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There were successes in some places and failures in other cases. There

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were changes in this country. not say there were not changes. But

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poverty levels soar some disparity. I could also mention his legacy on

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Zimbabwe. You had critics saying that he did not cover himself in

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glory. He chose to remain silent. There is the HIV policy. That is

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his legacy. I think, give me a chance to say what his legacy is.

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The point is that President Mac lead a government during Nelson

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Mandela's time. He put up new policies. He changed the lives of

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people. By 2008 there were a lot of changes in this country. He led it

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African renaissance. Could chew briefly talk about h five the? --

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HIV. You cannot reduce the legacy to HIV. The country performed well

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during his time. There are weaknesses that we need to deal

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with. Then there is the other youth issue. -- issue. There were

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difficulties we experienced during 1999-2000. I know you will be

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looking at HIV in a future book. A highly respected analyst said that

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the ANC is led by factionalism. Is it fit to govern given its 100

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years of existence? Is it fit to govern? The ANC is fit to govern.

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You cannot say it is not fit to govern. This is the ruling party.

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It is the government of the day. There might be challengers. But you

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