Browse content similar to Frank Chikane - South African Head of Presidency, 1999 - 2009. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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He served in the South African presidential office in the time of | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
Nelson Mandela and Jacob Zuma. He was privy to what went on behind | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
the scenes. Now Frank she can't has a unburden himself in a new book in | :00:24. | :00:33. | |
which she describes for the first time his recount of the removal of | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
the President. He said it was a painful time for Mr Mbeki and | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
exposed the deep rivalry at the heart of the ruling ANC, which | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
continues to be divided today. As the ANC become so riven with | :00:47. | :00:57. | |
:00:57. | :01:21. | ||
factionalism in corruption that it Frank Chikane, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
The whole world was stunned when Thabo Mbeki resigned unexpectedly | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
:01:37. | :01:37. | ||
as president in 2008. Why did he go, in your view? His party recalled in | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
it and he decided that he was not going to resist the recall of his | :01:43. | :01:52. | |
party. You may recall that Mr Mbeki grew up in the ANC, but did not | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
spend much time with the family except the ANC. When the ANC made | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
the decision that he should be recalled, he decided that he should | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
resign. Record it basically means that the ends of the ANC met in | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
Saddam back and said, we want you to leave. How did he feel? He must | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
have been devastated? Of course it was a painful experience. He did | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
not expect it to happen the way that it happened. He had only seven | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
months before he ended his term and was planning for celebrations and | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
fare well functions. Then a decision was made seven months | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
before. It was a shock, but as you would go, the character of Mr Mbeki | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
is not all of one who shows emotions. He took it as it came and | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
then resigned. He left office in dignity. You would Director General | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
to the presidency, effectively chief of staff. You have there | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
behind the scenes. Discard the atmosphere it to us when he | :03:04. | :03:14. | |
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realised he had to go? The decision was made after midnight on that | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
particular Friday. We decided that we would not wake him up to tell | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
him about the decision. I went to him early in the morning with the | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
senior staff to get him to note that the decision had been made. | :03:34. | :03:42. | |
The delegation of the ANC was going to formally met him that -- let him | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
know that it happened. He took it in a Cormac way and did not react | :03:45. | :03:53. | |
emotionally. -- Cormack. Then he said, yes I am going to leave, but | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
there are two things you have to advise on. Firstly, is there a | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
constitutionally way of doing it? And secondly, what happens with the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
programmes that he was supposed to undertake in the next few days. | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
That's all he discussed with them. After that, they can back and said, | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
yes, we can go through the constitutional processes, but he | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
could not continue with some of his activities. That was a bit of a | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
challenge. If you say to a President, you cannot continue with | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
certain activities before you resign, you could be seen to be | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
interfering with the work of the President. Anyway, he was ready to | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
leave and did not resist. Did you want him to change his mind? Did | :04:44. | :04:52. | |
anybody tried to get into changed his mind? No, we did not. Actually, | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
he was concerned about his legacy. He spent lots of time on the | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
African renaissance project, to renew the African continent. To | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
make sure there was peace and there would be development. He said that | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
he would not like his problem at the party to destabilise the | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
country and he would rather leave them to destabilise the party. He | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
never really resisted. I think the challenge was more about the | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
procedures and processors, which I had to manage. For instance, when | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
does he do there his letter of resignation? Where does he do but | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
it's too? In terms of our constitution, the President is | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
elected by Parliament and so his resignation has to be delivered to | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
Parliament. Then the next was when does he delivered the letter? We | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
thought it would be better to consult with Parliament and after | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
consulting its lawyers he would then determine what is the most | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
constitutional way of doing it. write in your book about the | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
resignation that the reality was that the drive to remove President | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
Mbeki was motivated by Intra party issues. What do you mean by that? | :06:17. | :06:24. | |
Was somebody trying to orchestrate his removal? It so, who? It was | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
more of a party challenge, rather than government. I do see in the | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
book that actually the contradiction is that at the point | :06:32. | :06:40. | |
at which she was removed, the government was performing well. | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
will come to his legacy in a minute. I just want to ask you, why do you | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
think that, as you imply, Thabo Mbeki was effectively bundled out | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
of office seven months before his second term expired? You describe | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
it as deli humiliating for the President and most people would | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
agree. Why did it come to that? was just putting context into which | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
to say that it was unexpected because it was unnecessary. It had | :07:11. | :07:18. | |
to do with a challenge just within the party. -- challengers within | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
the party. By 2003, one man was charged by fraud and when the | :07:25. | :07:35. | |
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judgement was passed Barack Obama - - past... You're talking to the | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
corruption charges relating to the arms dealer. He was found guilty | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
and Jacob Zuma was acquitted. you simplify it for as? Who do you | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
think was presenting these challenges to Thabo Mbeki? Was a | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
faction, was it being orchestrated by an individual? I think there are | :07:58. | :08:06. | |
people within the party who are not happy about the removal of the | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
Deputy President from office. Jacob Zuma. Yes, the current | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
president. At that point he was deputy president. He was removed | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
from cabinet by President Mbeki and that made members of the ANC | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
unhappy, but what happened next is that Jacob Zuma was charged with | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
corruption and bad even angered some people because they thought | :08:33. | :08:41. | |
Mbeki was involved in that incident. That was the accusation being | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
levelled against the Mbeki. In June 2005, Mbeki asked Jacob Zuma to | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
step down, but more than that, the accusation was that he was involved | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
in those corruption charges being brought against Jacob Zuma. Was he, | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
in your view? I do not know. That is the problem. The problem is that | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
there are charges against the President. There is a finding in | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
the court that implicates him and then the national director for | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
public prosecution decided to charge him, but the average citizen | :09:20. | :09:28. | |
would understand a state case against the President. You would | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
say no, but I did not prefer the charges against him. I think that | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
is what the date -- debate would be. I put it to you. You still have not | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
answered my question about the orchestration of the challenged to | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
Thabo Mbeki. You say supporters of Sir Mark, I ask you if you think | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
Jacobs's simmer was somehow involved? Of busy people were | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
campaigning for him and defending him. Obviously. They took up the | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
campaign with him. It was not like something that happened outside. | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
You are accusing Jacob Zuma, the current presenter of South Africa, | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
of having orchestrated the moves which eventually... No, I am not. | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
So, these people are just acting on behalf of Jacob Zuma without his | :10:24. | :10:32. | |
knowledge? Bell, I would not want to use the word orchestrated. They | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
worked with him together. They worked to campaign against Mbeki. | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
Especially during the trial against him. People mobilised on the basis | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
of that. Judge Chris Nicholson in September 2008, in a ruling about | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
the Jacob Zuma corruption case, talk about the Titanic power | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
struggle between Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki. As he put it, the | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
rivalry between them is hard the open to question and the | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
polarisation of the country into opposing camps before and after the | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
conference is well-known. The rivalry, is this what this is all | :11:16. | :11:26. | |
:11:26. | :11:26. | ||
about? A personal rivalry between Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki? Are we | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
not say personal. There were tensions. But they always denied | :11:34. | :11:44. | |
:11:44. | :11:45. | ||
that it was a rivalry amongst them. The fact is that at the end, the | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
unhappiness blew up to a level where the African National Congress, | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
in its conference, made a decision to vote for Jacob Zuma as President | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
of the ANC against Thabo Mbeki. me put it into context here. You | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
are talking about the ANC national conference in December 2007, when | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
Jacob Zuma was elected President of the ANC, defeating Thabo Mbeki. You | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
said a moment ago that you would not say it rivalry between the two | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
men, but you talk about tensions. Give me an example of the kind of | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
tensions between the two there you are referring to. Part of the | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
problem was that they denied that they had problems themselves. They | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
also denied that the attention are amongst themselves. You just said | :12:36. | :12:44. | |
there was tension. Kidney example. What did you see? Detention was | :12:44. | :12:53. | |
that there was unhappiness about being charged for corruption. -- | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
him being charged. They believed Mbeki was responsible for those | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
charges. In fact they also believe that he could but trawl those | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
charges. Some people believed that he could intervene pit-stop the | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
trial. In our constitution, it said that that could not be done. People | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
got angry and compared our constitution that the British | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
constitution, the French, the Americans. They gave examples about | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
what heads of states could do. In in a situation, you could not do | :13:26. | :13:35. | |
that. So there was unhappiness and it led to Mbeki being voted out and | :13:35. | :13:44. | |
There were no ideological differences? It was simply because | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
of the corruption charges? There were no ideological differences. | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
different visions of how South Africa could develop? Deficient is | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
embodied in the African National Congress. There were no changes in | :14:03. | :14:10. | |
the congress at which they voted. It was not an ideological issue. | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
There were differences within the party. You paint a sympathetic | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
portrait of Thabo Mbeki in your vote. It was almost a coup guitar. | :14:23. | :14:31. | |
-- coup. You have set out the fact that the tensions the back to the | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
fact that Jacob Zuma became president of the ANC. A lot of | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
people were unhappy when the Thabo Mbeki try to become president for a | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
third term. They thought he would try and wield influence behind the | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
scenes and undermine never would-be president. Is that not a valid | :14:54. | :15:04. | |
:15:04. | :15:05. | ||
criticism? This was a democracy. There was no constitution that | :15:05. | :15:14. | |
restrained any presidential nominee. There was no constitutional matter. | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
The problem was that when the tensions developed. There was and | :15:19. | :15:29. | |
:15:29. | :15:32. | ||
happiness. -- unhappiness. If he continued as president of the ANC | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
he might continue to influence processes within government or even | :15:37. | :15:45. | |
within the party. Wouldn't that have undermined anyone who became | :15:45. | :15:55. | |
:15:55. | :15:56. | ||
President? He would have had two centres of power. Was Thabo Mbeki | :15:56. | :16:04. | |
so addicted to power that he wanted to remain at the centre? That was | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
not my understanding of what he was about. He was committed to making | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
sure that this country was governed properly. It was not about | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
influencing. In normal circumstances it would not be an | :16:23. | :16:32. | |
issue at all. He could have been president. He became president of | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
the ANC as well as being President of the party. Yet here he was | :16:36. | :16:46. | |
:16:46. | :16:47. | ||
trying to prevent his success so retaining presidency of the ANC. -- | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
successor. The decision was controversial and not in accordance | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
with the Westminster system that was as Faust in the country. -- is | :17:01. | :17:11. | |
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Faust. That would be a wrong approach. It can be a faces on | :17:12. | :17:22. | |
which you could assess the politics. -- faces. You have a lot of | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
commentators saying the same thing. We should not use Nicholson's | :17:29. | :17:39. | |
:17:39. | :17:43. | ||
judgement. He came in and made a judgement that was ruled out. There | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
was no constitutional problem for any member of the ANC to serve as | :17:49. | :17:57. | |
president as long as the people collect that President. -- elect. | :17:57. | :18:07. | |
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Jacob Zuma was far more popular in the ANC than Thabo Mbeki. He won | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
more than 60% of the nearly 4,000 votes to become president of the | :18:12. | :18:22. | |
:18:22. | :18:23. | ||
ANC. Just moving on and asking you... Let me just make it Clare, | :18:23. | :18:30. | |
there is no debate on whether or not Jacob Zuma won the election. | :18:30. | :18:37. | |
There was a democratic process. Any body can stand for an election. | :18:37. | :18:45. | |
Just as Jacob Zuma won the election, he continued being President. | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
just explains the reasons that led it itMbeki's early | :18:50. | :19:00. | |
:19:00. | :19:03. | ||
resignation. Why did you decide to publish this book? I decided before | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
and left government that I was going to write a book. I asked for | :19:11. | :19:19. | |
permission to access information. I decided to leave before Thabo Mbeki | :19:19. | :19:29. | |
:19:29. | :19:29. | ||
left. I talked to Jacob Zuma. He knew I would write a book about the | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
things I could not say. The other would be an academic text to be | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
used in schools. I started writing the book three months after I left | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
government, in September. My intention was to publish that book | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
at the beginning of 2010. Unfortunately I could not get a | :19:53. | :20:01. | |
publisher. I started long ago to write the book. You set up what to | :20:01. | :20:09. | |
believe is your account. Looking at Thabo Mbeki's legacy. You said that | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
he was very keen to protect his legacy. There are those who say | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
that his legacy was not a great one to protect. Look at his domestic | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
policy. In the years he was president, the gap between the rich | :20:26. | :20:36. | |
:20:36. | :20:39. | ||
and poor or widened. Is that a great legacy? You cannot face the | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
legacy of a President on the gap between the rich and poor. You have | :20:46. | :20:54. | |
to look at the policies. These were ANC policies. These were not | :20:54. | :21:02. | |
necessarily policies of an individual, but policies of a party. | :21:02. | :21:11. | |
There were successes in some places and failures in other cases. There | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
were changes in this country. not say there were not changes. But | :21:17. | :21:27. | |
:21:27. | :21:29. | ||
poverty levels soar some disparity. I could also mention his legacy on | :21:29. | :21:38. | |
Zimbabwe. You had critics saying that he did not cover himself in | :21:38. | :21:47. | |
glory. He chose to remain silent. There is the HIV policy. That is | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
:21:57. | :21:58. | ||
his legacy. I think, give me a chance to say what his legacy is. | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
The point is that President Mac lead a government during Nelson | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
Mandela's time. He put up new policies. He changed the lives of | :22:13. | :22:23. | |
:22:23. | :22:24. | ||
people. By 2008 there were a lot of changes in this country. He led it | :22:24. | :22:34. | |
:22:34. | :22:37. | ||
African renaissance. Could chew briefly talk about h five the? -- | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
HIV. You cannot reduce the legacy to HIV. The country performed well | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
during his time. There are weaknesses that we need to deal | :22:50. | :23:00. | |
:23:00. | :23:03. | ||
with. Then there is the other youth issue. -- issue. There were | :23:03. | :23:12. | |
difficulties we experienced during 1999-2000. I know you will be | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
looking at HIV in a future book. A highly respected analyst said that | :23:19. | :23:29. | |
:23:29. | :23:29. | ||
the ANC is led by factionalism. Is it fit to govern given its 100 | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
:23:39. | :23:43. | ||
years of existence? Is it fit to govern? The ANC is fit to govern. | :23:43. | :23:53. | |
:23:53. | :23:53. | ||
You cannot say it is not fit to govern. This is the ruling party. | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
It is the government of the day. There might be challengers. But you | :23:58. | :24:07. |