Nabeel Rajab - President of the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights HARDtalk

A year ago revolution was in the air in the Gulf Kingdom of Bahrain

- what about now? After months of violence which killed dozens of

protestors, the Bahraini king commissioned an independent inquiry,

then he promised to implement sweeping reforms. I speak today to

Nabeel Rajab, one of Bahrain's most outspoken human rights activists.

Has this strategically vital Gulf monarchy successfully reformed

Welcome to HARDtalk. Nice to be here. In other parts of the Arab

world we have seen autocratic regimes respond to popular protest

with nothing but repression. Has it been different in Bahrain? It is

different in that the regime has invited troops from other countries

to take part in the crackdown. Mercenaries from Pakistan, Nigeria

and Yemen. The only revolution that has received silence from the

Western community. The only revolution which has not received

coverage in the media due to the complications to the interests in

the oil, arms sales and TV stations. They are the differences that you

sense, and we can talk about them later. The difference I was

alluding to was a different one. We have a ruler in Bahrain who, after

months of popular protest, unrest and violence, said he would have an

independent enquiry to see how his security forces have handled this.

He accepted its findings and promised major change. But he did

not keep his promises. He is a king who does not normally keep his

promises. He did form an independent commission, according

to him. That is not independent. An independent commission should be

appointed by the United Nations. They were not from Bahrain. They

were independent. The leader had worked on war crimes trials. These

individuals worked inside Bahrain finding out what happened and

issued a report which was damning of the Bahraini government. When

someone accused of carrying out violations himself forms a

commission, he is part of the commission. He is behind inviting

the Saudi army to come to Bahrain. He is behind the troops committing

the violations. Now he forms the commission to find out who is the

bad guy. Do you think the commission would say that is the

King? Is that responsible? Be responsible people, according to

the government, is small policeman. They were ordered from the

ministers at the top, from the Prime Minister, members of the

ruling family, to commit those crimes. Let's look at the wording

of what came out in those independent reports. You suggest it

only pins the blame on the bad guys. It actually pointed to systemic

problems inside your country. Security forces had used

unnecessary force. Beatings, rape, electrocutions and torture were

used. These were put inside a report which the King accepted.

That is extraordinary, isn't it? The number of people killed after

the commission started to work is larger than the number killed

before. That shows you there is nothing of compliment mission.

Those people are still in their job. The people responsible for the

violation, the killings, were awarded better jobs. The man

responsible for the national security apparatus has been awarded

to be the king's advisor. And to head the Security Council, which is

what criminals are being awarded. People are still in their job.

Nothing is being done to bring them to justice. It seems you have a

choice - the King of Bahrain is promising to learn from what he

accepts are terrible abuses from the past. You can either take his

word or dismiss him as a liar who cannot and will not ever change,

ever deliver reform to your country. It seems you have taken the latter

course. You seem determined not to listen. From the Economist magazine

after the King had reacted to the independent enquiry - no other Arab

leader has voluntarily invited such public scrutiny. It sounds good, it

looks good. You'll be so cynical about the man. It seems to me

you're suggesting that the only way forward for Bahrain is for the King

and his and her family to go. this is the choice of people, then

he has to go. I want to put things in context. Do not distance the

King from responsibility. The UN were supposed to send a commission.

He established a commission to stop the UN from sending an independent

commission. This move by the King is to distance himself from

responsibility. It is a smart move. But still we welcomed it. Do you

accept that it has put you and other opponents of the regime on

the back foot. The National Security Agency is no longer given

the right to arrest people. Civilian courts reviewing

convictions of military courts. Reviews of code of conduct. These

are real reforms and the King has promised he is now undertaking

change - you are reading an article and I am judging from the practice.

The King is known to be a person who does not keep his promises. The

commission says that those people in jail now because of their

opinions should be released. More than 2000 have been. Now you have

something like 600. Leaders of opposition, a human-rights

activists, journalists, bloggers, doctors, nurses. The former senior

Metropolitan Police chief John Yates, hired by the Bahraini

government, said that excellent progress was being made on the

security reforms. He is taking part in the crimes committed in Bahrain.

He is covering up the crimes and violations committed by the king.

Every day people are dying. You are making very serious violations.

John Yates is a respected policeman who has gone there to help redress

these issues. You go and see his estate. Just covering up the crimes

committed by the King. The UN has been saying that we need to reform.

He is just covering up the crimes of the King, saying nothing is

happening. He becomes another Arab dictator talking from Bahrain. You

keep talking about the crimes still being committed by the King's

regime. What about your focus on some of the things happening from

the other side of the political fence. The evidence of violence

being used by village militias that we see in some of the Shia villages.

Molotov cocktails are routinely used. Have you publicly condemned

them? A principle of the violence.

Whether it is used by the government or a protester. I do not

think Molotov cocktails will solve any problems. Only now, after a

year of the government killing people and the silence of the

international community. Now after a year, people have started to use

Molotov cocktails. A cleric was recently captured on video saying

that demonstrators should crush police if they attempted to abuse

women at demonstrations. Do you approve of language like crushing

the police? The right of defence is a human right. So you think that

when Shia clerics inside your country use this sort of language

it is not inflammatory? It is not dangerous? It is not fuelling the

flames of violence? You have to put things in the right position. When

a security institution hired mercenaries from outside to raid

villages. They are not local people. They are brought from outside.

Brought it to take part in the crackdown. They have special houses

in special cities, isolated from people. From Pakistan, Jordan,

Syria, Yemen. Those people raid your house, steal things, attack

your daughters, harass them sexually, torture them

systematically, arbitrary arrest them. Are you going to defend that?

The right of self-defence is a human right. You seem to be

ignoring the efforts of Syria to change the way the security forces

operate. The police, who are supposed to police the riots, are

now told they can conduct interrogations in rooms which have

closed circuit TV. A direct result of allegations that in the past

they have interrogated under torture. Torturing centres - they

used a horse stable and a youth centre as torture centres. They

have put cameras in places, but torture is carried out in other

places. Cameras do not relate to security institutions. They have

been committing torture there. This is not solving the problem. They

should interrogate people in one place. The cameras should be there.

Not arresting people, taking them for torture and then taking them

You're free to travel to the UK, come on a show like HARDtalk and

make the most explosive allegations about what is happening inside your

country. Does that not point to a government which is not using the

same repressive tactics as those we see in Damascus, Libya, Tunisia?

Many human-rights defenders were systematically tortured, some were

killed. I have been attacked. I have been tortured, kidnapped. My

business was burnt. My staff was attacked, my house was attacked.

When you say tortured, tortured is year from my house and marched to

an unknown place blindfolded, handcuffed, I was tortured and

brought back. What form of torture? Anything from sexual harassment to

beatings while I'm in the car to kicking, pulling hair, punching.

John Yates, whom you have suggested you have no faith in, a former

senior officer in the Metropolitan Police, says that allegations like

the ones you have just made to me, he believes the only thing to do is

to go to the authorities, explain what has happened, and he says he

is convinced reforms inside the security forces mean that those

allegations will be treated seriously from now on. I have tried

this. Witnesses of crimes have gone to the police and have been

rejected. I hear a complete disbelief in the current

government's commitment to reform. Are you not in danger of missing an

opportunity? There is no question that the ruling family in Bahrain

is divided. King Hamad is torn between a reform-minded Crown

Prince encouraging him to be more progressive and become more of a

constitutional monarchy, and a Prime Minister who has been a hard

line repressive leader for years. If you chose to go down the path of

dialogue, and you could expose those divisions. I am supporting a

dialogue. I think this is the only solution for the crisis. I do not

think fighting with the army will solve the problem. Nor will

depending on foreign power. I believe in dialogue. Why don't you

talk to the government? You have said that until all political

prisoners are released, you will not talk at all to the government.

There is no such offer. There is such an offer. Another human rights

activist has already said that he will talk to the government and has

participated in the Commission overseeing reform implementation.

He says it is better to get 40% of what you want from within the tent

then 0% outside. Where is the 40%? The things King Hamad is now

committed to. Where is it? The government did not sit with the

opposition in dialogue. Wefaq, the main Shia opposition party has said

they want to talk. Nobody asked them. Nobody invited them for a

dialogue. This is a misleading statement to this news agency and

that TV channel. The reality is there is no dialogue. The

government does not accept a dialogue. We have not talked about

it much but I did ask you about what the demonstrators are doing in

some of the villages around Manama. We have to talk about the degree to

which this is a sectarian protest movement. There are indications

from some sheikhs in the mosques that Shia sectarianism is driving

the opposition to the regime. do you categorise it as sectarian?

Is it because the majority of the protesters are Shia? Some of the

most radical sentiment is being expressed from the Shia mosques.

They have a very clear demand. Do you think they're sectarian?

course not. If you ask a government that has power, is that sectarian?

If you ask a government to respect human rights and laws, is that

sectarian? Sectarian is when you see vigilantes patrolling villages,

setting up road blocks and they are 100% Shia. It is violence but it is

not sectarian. Those people are blocking roads because they are not

allowed by the government to protest peacefully. It they were

allowed to protest peacefully there would not block roads. Let me ask

you about the international reaction to what has happened in

Bahrain over the last 15 months. The US, the UK and other Western

governments have expressed concern about the violence but have not

indicated that they are close to regarding the Bahraini government

as illegitimate. The hypocrisy of the Western governments were

exposed here in Bahrain. The double standard of their foreign politics

has damaged the reputation and image. I do not think what the

British and Americans are doing well help their strategic interests.

Is there not a chance that the US is ever going to cut its tyres with

that dynasty? They will not do that. If I can describe you as a member

of the opposition, there is no prospect that you will get any

diplomatic support from the powers that matter? When we started we did

not count on support from Britain and America. We did not need it. We

said having two different policies for a revolution will not serve you.

We count on our own people and our own beliefs. You keep using the

word revolution. When that word is heard in Washington, given the fact

that Saudi Arabia is next door and Iran is over the water, the last

thing they want to see is revolution. Then why talk about

democracy and human rights? This is hypocrisy. If it happens in Libya

and Syria, you support it because you have bad relations with those

guys. But when it comes to Bahrain, the last thing you want to see is

people fighting for democracy? Fighting for justice? What are you

talking about? Don't talk about values and principles in some

places while ignoring them in others. But if this is the reality

and that is the nature of Bahrain's strategic position, you as an

opposition member, surely the most pragmatic in useful thing you can

do is find avenues to get to common ground with this regime? We are

trying our best. But either we have good relations or, we can't ask the

British or Americans to listen to us because we do not have oil to

give or arms to buy. Those suppressive dictators have more to

offer to those democracies than we do. But in the recent past, the US

and UK have continued to supply arms to the Bahraini government.

While asking the Russians to stop selling arms to Syria. This is

hypocrisy! So what do you want from the West? We want them to respect

the values they say that they do. Respect the international standard.

To have one policy for every revolution and one policy towards

all dictators. Not just those dictators you have a problem with

but those dictators you had a good relationship with. Bahrain is to

host the Formula One motor racing event in April. Should they not do

that? Do you want it stopped? should stop out of respect for the

Formula One staff who were systematically tortured. If it is

not stopped, and Bernie Ecclestone has given no indication it will be,

what will happen? We will use the opportunity to protest. There will

be many journalists and we will protest everywhere. You will try

and disrupt it? We will not spoil the event but we will get the

benefit from it. Many people from outside will be coming in. We will

protest. You talk about revolution. Will the monarchy in Bahrain be