Browse content similar to FW de Klerk - President, South Africa (1989-1994). Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In this poster part-paid South Africa losing its status as the | :00:14. | :00:21. | |
dominant power? As economic growth transforms the Continent, could | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
suffer Africa be losing its way? From left and right, black and | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
white, there are questions about the effectiveness of the current | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
generation of leaders. My guest today is the last white president, | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
FW de Klerk, a Co recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize with a Nelson | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
:00:50. | :01:14. | ||
Mandela. Is the Rainbow nation FW de Klerk, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
When you look at the fast-changing continent of Africa today, do you | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
believe that South Africa still has the right to regard itself as a | :01:25. | :01:33. | |
leader in political and economic terms? I think South Africa is | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
still the leading country, but as an African, I welcome the fact that | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
so many other countries are coming to the fork. It is what the | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
Continent needs. The Continent and needs stable governments, economic | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
growth, in East Africa, in central Africa, in West Africa, Southern | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
Africa. Although it South Africa has been fought so long the leading | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
country, it is a good thing that there is competition. It is a good | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
thing for Africans that there is growth and more democracy and more | :02:12. | :02:22. | |
stability. But it is not give South Africa itself is in a place which | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
is quite a native. Politics is stuck. There is a form of one-party | :02:27. | :02:35. | |
rule even though within a democracy and where economic growth is not | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
equal with your neighbours. May I just say, as other countries, to | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
the forefront, surf Africa benefits too. Intra trade in Africa is | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
growing dramatically. Companies are doing extremely well throughout | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
Africa. What is happening in the rest of Africa is helping its staff | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
Africa to continue to grow economically although not at a | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
higher rate. -- South Africa. Yes, we have serious problems. How | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
democracy looks good on paper. But it is not a healthy democracy. They | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
democracy in which one party has 65% of the growth is not help -- | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
65% of the votes is not healthy. You only achieve that balance when | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
you are no longer sure who will win the next election. We have not had | :03:29. | :03:39. | |
:03:39. | :03:39. | ||
that since 1994. It will only come about once the alliance divides. | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
spoke there about the institution of the party. What about the | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
calibre of individual leaders? Are you walked alongside Nelson Mandela. | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
-- you worked alongside. When you look at Jacob Zuma, the President | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
of South Africa, if you see and leader who is capable of giving | :03:59. | :04:07. | |
South Africa at the political leadership that it needs? In a | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
democracy, leaders are judged by the electorate in the final | :04:11. | :04:19. | |
analysis. They are judged by the members of parties, and the ANC is | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
considering at the moment whether they should continue with President | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
Jacob Zuma as leader or not. There is a possible leadership struggle | :04:28. | :04:36. | |
looming. You recently said the ANZ has lost its compass. I do think | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
that. But I would not play made just on the President. I am not | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
defending him. I wrote her think he has made some serious mistakes. I | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
am critical of some of the things he has done. But he has been better | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
on some things than previous presidents. He has been better on | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
HIV/Aids. He has been a more direct about the need to address serious | :05:00. | :05:08. | |
crime. What about the mistakes? has been softer on the howl of | :05:08. | :05:15. | |
affirmative action. I don't want to judge your mouth. What about his | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
mistakes? There is a great deal of focus on him right now, not least | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
within the ANC. I wonder if you would see his most important | :05:26. | :05:36. | |
:05:36. | :05:36. | ||
mistakes? He tries to please everybody. He is allowing the ANC | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
it under his leadership to question the very cornerstones of the accord | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
which we reached after five years of negotiations. Questioning the | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
cornerstones of our new democracy, the cornerstones of economic | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
stability, by saying, maybe the constitution should be amended with | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
regard to the protection of private property ownership, allowing the | :06:06. | :06:14. | |
ANC to question the independence of the courts, bringing it into the | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
arena. Why is that a mistake. If one looks at the current state of | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
South Africa from the point of view of so many ordinary black South | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
Africans, the constitution which she talk so fondly of simply has | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
not delivered to a nation state that is capable of giving them a | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
fair shake. That is in their own country. I fundamentally disagree | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
with those who say the constitution is a stumbling block towards | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
economic transformation, or that it is a stumbling block towards a | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
better life. The minister said it the other day. He said our current | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
so political settlement is inadequate for the transformation | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
we need. He is absolutely wrong. The constitution is a | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
transformational document. It allows, in order to rectify the | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
injustices of the past, what is called Fair discrimination. The | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
constitution demands economic transformation. The constitution | :07:20. | :07:30. | |
:07:30. | :07:30. | ||
allows concepts like black economic empowerment. I am looking for the | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
right word. Let me intervene with a question. Would you dispute for one | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
second that the fundamental levers of economic power I still in a | :07:42. | :07:50. | |
largely white hens? It is changing. Would you dispute the fact? No. | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
are so proud of this Budget has not delivered the radical | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
transformation that so many South Africans need. The call was not to | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
deliver, it was to create a framework. A constitution is a | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
framework. It is the policies which have been applied that has led to | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
the failure in a radical transformation. Policies like | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
unbalanced affirmative action. The loss of highly trained and highly | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
skilled people, almost one million white people have immigrated. We | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
have had fairly well-balanced economic policies. But policies | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
which have led to end implosion in the quality of service, especially | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
at municipal level, with the result that people are marching against | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
the ANC government, because of failure of delivery of goods | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
services. The argument from senior figures in the ANC, including the | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
President, say in the constitution has to be end of all think living | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
document, so we won't get hung up on keeping it as the tears. But | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
also others, they are saying that the constitution has constrained | :09:07. | :09:15. | |
the ability of government to change society. For example, the balance | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
of land ownership. To change the way in which black people are able | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
to take important positions in corporate life in South Africa. If | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
only the government had more levers to pull, it would be better for | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
South Africa. Let me use your examples. In corporate life, there | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
has been tremendous growth in the participation of black people. | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
Directors. But look at the reality. A recent study showed that of the | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
companies listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, only | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
10% of the directors of those companies a black or coloured. | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
20 years ago, none were. There has been growth. There is a development | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
that black shareholding of the Stock Exchange has increased | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
exponentially. It is happening, but you can't do it in five or ten | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
years. Your other example about private property ownership, the | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
failure to achieve a bigger percentage of land in black hens | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
lies squarely in the policies and the execution of policy which has | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
been followed by the ANC government. The fact is, they did not even | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
properly spent the money which was allocated for them. It is not the | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
willing buyer, a willing seller principle which stands in the way | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
of achieving the goal of putting a bigger percentage of land in black | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
hands. It is failure of policy and failure of implementation of | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
policies which might work if they were implemented properly. But the | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
fact is, whatever happens, the report finds that 50% of South | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Africans are living in poverty, as defined by your own government. The | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
most recent studies of inequality showed that it is rising. These are | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
realities that South Africans, black South Africans, who leave | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
without running water, electricity or housing, they say, the system as | :11:28. | :11:36. | |
it was constituted by you and Nelson Mandela does not work for us. | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
The single biggest challenge which we face is to win the war against | :11:41. | :11:49. | |
poverty. All South Africans should unite in... And take hens, and say, | :11:49. | :11:59. | |
:11:59. | :12:00. | ||
how can we bring that 50% down? We have failed to do so, not because | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
of the constitution. We have failed to do so because of bad governance | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
to a certain extent. Education is in its worst state then it has been | :12:11. | :12:21. | |
in 1994. Someone else said that, not me. Not so long ago, I spoke to | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
someone who is now in deep trouble with the ANC, but for a long time | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
was the leader of the Youth League. His anger was so explicit, his | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
determination that young black people will not wait any longer to | :12:35. | :12:43. | |
see their lives improved, and his voice is powerful. Yes, it is a | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
challenge which we face, which can only be accepted successfully. We | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
can only begin to resolve this problem if each and every talent in | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
South Africa is used to its best. We can only succeed in bringing | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
down that 50%, in giving a better life to young people, in creating | :13:07. | :13:15. | |
cornerstones of the constitution. If we remain a truly democratic | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
country. If we have independent courts. If we uphold all the rights | :13:20. | :13:28. | |
of all South Africans. We should not try to reinvent the wheel. We | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
should, in South Africa, developed policies which are affordable, | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
which can work, and which are focused on improving the quality of | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
life of those who are leaving beneath the breadline. I just | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
wonder, when you say focus should be on them, why UN jour Foundation | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
spends so much time talking about the need to defend the rights of | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
minorities, including the Afrikaner speaking the Afrikaans language. | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
You seem to be hung up on an issue which there is say a majority of | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
South Africans would regard as secondary importance. | :14:10. | :14:20. | |
constitution guarantees rights for all. It prohibits you shall not be | :14:20. | :14:30. | |
:14:30. | :14:34. | ||
This has been thwarted by an unbalanced way of implementing | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
affirmative action. We are not just defending white right when we talk | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
about the rights of minorities. We are now involved in a court case | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
which will end up in the constitutional court. The ANC said | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
that people of mixed origin, so- called coloured South Africans, in | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
the Prison Service, will no longer get any promotion because there are | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
:15:10. | :15:12. | ||
too many of them holding positions of Frank. -- military service. This | :15:12. | :15:22. | |
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is unfair. This is wrong. This is damaging. But here, I suppose, when | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
we talk about race, and whether South Africa has truly moved beyond | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
racial politics, into colour-blind politics, here's another phrase | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
from the most recent OECD report, which says that by international | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
standards, the link between race and poverty in South Africa is | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
still remarkably strong. But it has improved. One of the fastest- | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
growing groups in South Africa... And I am absolutely sure of my | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
facts in this regard. The percentage of, if you analyse the | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
so-called middle class, if you analyse the percentage of blacks | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
grown exponentially and quite dramatically. All right, let's get | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
a bit personal then, to examine how make, let me ask you some personal | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
questions. Waded live, just outside of Cape Town, is than, is tha | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
neighbourhood now? These so called for more white neighbourhoods have | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
more mixed. So when you walk down your street, do you see a genuine | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
mix of faces and colours? In my particular street, no, but five | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
blocks away from me, yes. Right, so there is a demarcation still. Five | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
blocks away. But five blocks away used to be totally white. What | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
about in your household? Do you have household staff? What colour | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
are they? Three of them are coloured and two are black, and | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
three of them live on the premises in up raided a house in which we | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
provided for them. What I'm getting out here at... And we are one big | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
family together. There is the best of relationships between us. | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
suppose what I'm getting out, too many people watching this around | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
the world, it will not sound that much different to the by Africa was | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
before 1993 and 1994. Well, let me give you an example. It has changed | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
in the way that this demarcation of living almost in separate | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
compartments has changed dramatically. The way in which, in | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
schools now, all schools are more to racial now. To a lesser or | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
greater extent. Often to a lesser extent. Big one looks at the | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
exclusive universities and the exclusive secondary schools. -- if | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
one. They go out of that way to get black and coloured students. They | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
offer scholarships, they make it financially possible for people of | :18:03. | :18:12. | |
colour to go to the best schools to which they did not go to before. On | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
this side of those who are privileged, there is a real | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
commitment to reach out and to be helpful and to open doors and to | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
move towards a more egalitarian society. I just wonder had you | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
believe the party politics of South Africa can truly become post | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
racial? Because you have already talked about the problem of having | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
an agency which is so dominant, two-thirds of the seats and the | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
votes in your elections go to the ANC. The Democratic Alliance, the | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
main opposition party, it is trying to make inroads. In the last | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
election it a 24% of the vote. But the problem is that if the | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
breakdown that boat, and the 5% of it comes from the black population. | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
The majority of it clearly comes from the White and the coloured | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
population. How does the Democratic Alliance moved beyond that place? | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
do not for one moment dispute the fact that our politics is still | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
racially and ethnically based. Once the ANC split - and they will split. | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
I don't know whether it will be with a big bang or a series of | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
splits. But once that happens, it will enable us to move towards more | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
policy votes, and principally based politics, value-based politics. | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
I suppose one point I am getting at is whether on the most literal | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
level, the main opposition party some time soon has to have a black | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
leader. Helen is a liar has a long record of working for Equality in | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
South Africa, but nonetheless she is a white woman in a majority | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
:19:59. | :20:00. | ||
black land. Can that be credible for the main opposition party? -- | :20:00. | :20:09. | |
Helen Ziller. I think the question is whether a bug that split occurs | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
there will be another agency, still dominant, maybe with a black leader, | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
and there will be another more radical and fairly left-wing ANC. | :20:17. | :20:25. | |
It depends who will get the trademark ANC. That we will have to | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
see. And then I see room for alliances, between a party like the | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Democratic Alliance, as it is at the moment, and a moderate ANC | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
party, none of them having 50% of the boat, but together representing | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
the overwhelming majority of all South Africans. Most South Africans | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
are moderate. You are talking about a sea change in South African | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
politics, and huge change from the ANC of Nelson Mandela. And before | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
we finish up what to focus a bit of Nelson Mandela we do. Are you still | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
in touch with him? Yes. I on his wish not to be bothered too much | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
now. He wants solitude in his old age. But yes, we speak of old days, | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
we communicate, my foundation and his foundation communicate with | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
each other and work with each other. He has become a good and valued | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
friend of mine. I highly respected. I am interested used the word | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
friend, because you have been very interesting in what you have said | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
about Mandela. You said recently you do not subscribe to the general | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
hagiography concerning him. He was by no means the St like figure it | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
depicted today. As an opponent, he could be brutal and quite unfair. | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
Yes. In retrospect, perhaps I should have said ruthless. In what | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
way? Ruthless towards you? politicians need to be ruthless at | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
a certain stage. You cannot be an effective leader of a party or a | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
country if you do not at times take decisions which cut to the bone, | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
which are certain people will experience to be brittle or | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
ruthless. I think Margaret Thatcher, for whom I have the highest respect, | :22:14. | :22:24. | |
:22:24. | :22:27. | ||
was quite brittle on a number of occasions. I was brittle. -- brutal. | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
The day before Nelson Mandela and I received the Nobel Peace Prize | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
together former he made a vicious attack upon me personally on | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
television. Just one example. I do not bear a grudge about it. I could | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
give you other examples. Every South African, I think, right now, | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
is hoping and praying that Nelson Mandela's help will last as long as | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
it possibly can, but one day he will pass, and that whole era will | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
pass, and I just wonder whether you are worried about the impact of | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
Mandela's passing on South Africa? Because in a sense, his presence in | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
the country has kept a lid on many tensions within. I will give you a | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
reply to that, but once again I just want to complete what I wanted | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
to say about what I recently said. I said that as a footnote in | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
praising him. In mentioning him some more tenuously with five | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
others of the greatest leaders I have met during my political career. | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
He is a very special person. And it was not said in a derogatory way it | :23:34. | :23:44. | |
:23:44. | :23:52. | ||
ought to attack his character. -- or to attack. Understood. The ANC | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
has already, unfortunately, tarnished his heritage by doing | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
certain things wrong. Losing the moral compass which she clearly | :24:00. | :24:08. | |
supplied and established for the ANC during his leadership. I think, | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
and let's hope it does not happen soon, but when Mandela goes it will | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
be a moment in which all South Africans will put away their | :24:16. | :24:26. | |
:24:26. | :24:28. |