FW de Klerk - President, South Africa (1989-1994) HARDtalk


FW de Klerk - President, South Africa (1989-1994)

Similar Content

Browse content similar to FW de Klerk - President, South Africa (1989-1994). Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

In this poster part-paid South Africa losing its status as the

:00:14.:00:21.

dominant power? As economic growth transforms the Continent, could

:00:21.:00:26.

suffer Africa be losing its way? From left and right, black and

:00:26.:00:30.

white, there are questions about the effectiveness of the current

:00:30.:00:35.

generation of leaders. My guest today is the last white president,

:00:35.:00:40.

FW de Klerk, a Co recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize with a Nelson

:00:40.:00:50.
:00:50.:01:14.

Mandela. Is the Rainbow nation FW de Klerk, welcome to HARDtalk.

:01:14.:01:20.

When you look at the fast-changing continent of Africa today, do you

:01:20.:01:25.

believe that South Africa still has the right to regard itself as a

:01:25.:01:33.

leader in political and economic terms? I think South Africa is

:01:33.:01:38.

still the leading country, but as an African, I welcome the fact that

:01:38.:01:43.

so many other countries are coming to the fork. It is what the

:01:43.:01:49.

Continent needs. The Continent and needs stable governments, economic

:01:49.:01:53.

growth, in East Africa, in central Africa, in West Africa, Southern

:01:53.:02:01.

Africa. Although it South Africa has been fought so long the leading

:02:01.:02:07.

country, it is a good thing that there is competition. It is a good

:02:07.:02:12.

thing for Africans that there is growth and more democracy and more

:02:12.:02:22.

stability. But it is not give South Africa itself is in a place which

:02:22.:02:27.

is quite a native. Politics is stuck. There is a form of one-party

:02:27.:02:35.

rule even though within a democracy and where economic growth is not

:02:35.:02:41.

equal with your neighbours. May I just say, as other countries, to

:02:41.:02:47.

the forefront, surf Africa benefits too. Intra trade in Africa is

:02:47.:02:51.

growing dramatically. Companies are doing extremely well throughout

:02:51.:02:57.

Africa. What is happening in the rest of Africa is helping its staff

:02:57.:03:02.

Africa to continue to grow economically although not at a

:03:02.:03:08.

higher rate. -- South Africa. Yes, we have serious problems. How

:03:08.:03:14.

democracy looks good on paper. But it is not a healthy democracy. They

:03:14.:03:19.

democracy in which one party has 65% of the growth is not help --

:03:19.:03:24.

65% of the votes is not healthy. You only achieve that balance when

:03:24.:03:29.

you are no longer sure who will win the next election. We have not had

:03:29.:03:39.
:03:39.:03:39.

that since 1994. It will only come about once the alliance divides.

:03:39.:03:43.

spoke there about the institution of the party. What about the

:03:43.:03:49.

calibre of individual leaders? Are you walked alongside Nelson Mandela.

:03:50.:03:54.

-- you worked alongside. When you look at Jacob Zuma, the President

:03:54.:03:59.

of South Africa, if you see and leader who is capable of giving

:03:59.:04:07.

South Africa at the political leadership that it needs? In a

:04:08.:04:11.

democracy, leaders are judged by the electorate in the final

:04:11.:04:19.

analysis. They are judged by the members of parties, and the ANC is

:04:19.:04:24.

considering at the moment whether they should continue with President

:04:24.:04:28.

Jacob Zuma as leader or not. There is a possible leadership struggle

:04:28.:04:36.

looming. You recently said the ANZ has lost its compass. I do think

:04:36.:04:41.

that. But I would not play made just on the President. I am not

:04:41.:04:46.

defending him. I wrote her think he has made some serious mistakes. I

:04:46.:04:52.

am critical of some of the things he has done. But he has been better

:04:52.:04:55.

on some things than previous presidents. He has been better on

:04:55.:05:00.

HIV/Aids. He has been a more direct about the need to address serious

:05:00.:05:08.

crime. What about the mistakes? has been softer on the howl of

:05:08.:05:15.

affirmative action. I don't want to judge your mouth. What about his

:05:15.:05:21.

mistakes? There is a great deal of focus on him right now, not least

:05:21.:05:26.

within the ANC. I wonder if you would see his most important

:05:26.:05:36.
:05:36.:05:36.

mistakes? He tries to please everybody. He is allowing the ANC

:05:36.:05:44.

it under his leadership to question the very cornerstones of the accord

:05:44.:05:51.

which we reached after five years of negotiations. Questioning the

:05:51.:05:55.

cornerstones of our new democracy, the cornerstones of economic

:05:55.:06:00.

stability, by saying, maybe the constitution should be amended with

:06:00.:06:06.

regard to the protection of private property ownership, allowing the

:06:06.:06:14.

ANC to question the independence of the courts, bringing it into the

:06:14.:06:20.

arena. Why is that a mistake. If one looks at the current state of

:06:20.:06:25.

South Africa from the point of view of so many ordinary black South

:06:25.:06:30.

Africans, the constitution which she talk so fondly of simply has

:06:30.:06:35.

not delivered to a nation state that is capable of giving them a

:06:35.:06:41.

fair shake. That is in their own country. I fundamentally disagree

:06:41.:06:46.

with those who say the constitution is a stumbling block towards

:06:46.:06:51.

economic transformation, or that it is a stumbling block towards a

:06:51.:06:57.

better life. The minister said it the other day. He said our current

:06:57.:07:00.

so political settlement is inadequate for the transformation

:07:00.:07:06.

we need. He is absolutely wrong. The constitution is a

:07:06.:07:11.

transformational document. It allows, in order to rectify the

:07:11.:07:16.

injustices of the past, what is called Fair discrimination. The

:07:16.:07:20.

constitution demands economic transformation. The constitution

:07:20.:07:30.
:07:30.:07:30.

allows concepts like black economic empowerment. I am looking for the

:07:30.:07:36.

right word. Let me intervene with a question. Would you dispute for one

:07:36.:07:42.

second that the fundamental levers of economic power I still in a

:07:42.:07:50.

largely white hens? It is changing. Would you dispute the fact? No.

:07:50.:07:54.

are so proud of this Budget has not delivered the radical

:07:54.:08:00.

transformation that so many South Africans need. The call was not to

:08:00.:08:04.

deliver, it was to create a framework. A constitution is a

:08:04.:08:08.

framework. It is the policies which have been applied that has led to

:08:08.:08:14.

the failure in a radical transformation. Policies like

:08:14.:08:20.

unbalanced affirmative action. The loss of highly trained and highly

:08:20.:08:28.

skilled people, almost one million white people have immigrated. We

:08:28.:08:33.

have had fairly well-balanced economic policies. But policies

:08:33.:08:37.

which have led to end implosion in the quality of service, especially

:08:37.:08:42.

at municipal level, with the result that people are marching against

:08:42.:08:46.

the ANC government, because of failure of delivery of goods

:08:46.:08:53.

services. The argument from senior figures in the ANC, including the

:08:53.:08:57.

President, say in the constitution has to be end of all think living

:08:57.:09:02.

document, so we won't get hung up on keeping it as the tears. But

:09:02.:09:07.

also others, they are saying that the constitution has constrained

:09:07.:09:15.

the ability of government to change society. For example, the balance

:09:15.:09:20.

of land ownership. To change the way in which black people are able

:09:20.:09:25.

to take important positions in corporate life in South Africa. If

:09:25.:09:30.

only the government had more levers to pull, it would be better for

:09:30.:09:36.

South Africa. Let me use your examples. In corporate life, there

:09:36.:09:41.

has been tremendous growth in the participation of black people.

:09:41.:09:48.

Directors. But look at the reality. A recent study showed that of the

:09:48.:09:54.

companies listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, only

:09:54.:10:00.

10% of the directors of those companies a black or coloured.

:10:00.:10:07.

20 years ago, none were. There has been growth. There is a development

:10:07.:10:11.

that black shareholding of the Stock Exchange has increased

:10:11.:10:16.

exponentially. It is happening, but you can't do it in five or ten

:10:16.:10:21.

years. Your other example about private property ownership, the

:10:21.:10:27.

failure to achieve a bigger percentage of land in black hens

:10:27.:10:32.

lies squarely in the policies and the execution of policy which has

:10:32.:10:37.

been followed by the ANC government. The fact is, they did not even

:10:37.:10:43.

properly spent the money which was allocated for them. It is not the

:10:43.:10:46.

willing buyer, a willing seller principle which stands in the way

:10:46.:10:52.

of achieving the goal of putting a bigger percentage of land in black

:10:52.:10:57.

hands. It is failure of policy and failure of implementation of

:10:57.:11:02.

policies which might work if they were implemented properly. But the

:11:02.:11:08.

fact is, whatever happens, the report finds that 50% of South

:11:08.:11:13.

Africans are living in poverty, as defined by your own government. The

:11:13.:11:18.

most recent studies of inequality showed that it is rising. These are

:11:18.:11:22.

realities that South Africans, black South Africans, who leave

:11:22.:11:28.

without running water, electricity or housing, they say, the system as

:11:28.:11:36.

it was constituted by you and Nelson Mandela does not work for us.

:11:36.:11:41.

The single biggest challenge which we face is to win the war against

:11:41.:11:49.

poverty. All South Africans should unite in... And take hens, and say,

:11:49.:11:59.
:11:59.:12:00.

how can we bring that 50% down? We have failed to do so, not because

:12:00.:12:05.

of the constitution. We have failed to do so because of bad governance

:12:05.:12:11.

to a certain extent. Education is in its worst state then it has been

:12:11.:12:21.

in 1994. Someone else said that, not me. Not so long ago, I spoke to

:12:21.:12:26.

someone who is now in deep trouble with the ANC, but for a long time

:12:26.:12:32.

was the leader of the Youth League. His anger was so explicit, his

:12:32.:12:35.

determination that young black people will not wait any longer to

:12:35.:12:43.

see their lives improved, and his voice is powerful. Yes, it is a

:12:43.:12:48.

challenge which we face, which can only be accepted successfully. We

:12:48.:12:54.

can only begin to resolve this problem if each and every talent in

:12:54.:13:02.

South Africa is used to its best. We can only succeed in bringing

:13:02.:13:07.

down that 50%, in giving a better life to young people, in creating

:13:07.:13:15.

cornerstones of the constitution. If we remain a truly democratic

:13:15.:13:20.

country. If we have independent courts. If we uphold all the rights

:13:20.:13:28.

of all South Africans. We should not try to reinvent the wheel. We

:13:28.:13:34.

should, in South Africa, developed policies which are affordable,

:13:34.:13:37.

which can work, and which are focused on improving the quality of

:13:38.:13:43.

life of those who are leaving beneath the breadline. I just

:13:43.:13:48.

wonder, when you say focus should be on them, why UN jour Foundation

:13:48.:13:53.

spends so much time talking about the need to defend the rights of

:13:53.:13:58.

minorities, including the Afrikaner speaking the Afrikaans language.

:13:58.:14:04.

You seem to be hung up on an issue which there is say a majority of

:14:04.:14:10.

South Africans would regard as secondary importance.

:14:10.:14:20.

constitution guarantees rights for all. It prohibits you shall not be

:14:20.:14:30.
:14:30.:14:34.

This has been thwarted by an unbalanced way of implementing

:14:34.:14:38.

affirmative action. We are not just defending white right when we talk

:14:38.:14:42.

about the rights of minorities. We are now involved in a court case

:14:42.:14:48.

which will end up in the constitutional court. The ANC said

:14:48.:14:54.

that people of mixed origin, so- called coloured South Africans, in

:14:54.:15:00.

the Prison Service, will no longer get any promotion because there are

:15:00.:15:10.
:15:10.:15:12.

too many of them holding positions of Frank. -- military service. This

:15:12.:15:22.
:15:22.:15:25.

is unfair. This is wrong. This is damaging. But here, I suppose, when

:15:25.:15:29.

we talk about race, and whether South Africa has truly moved beyond

:15:29.:15:35.

racial politics, into colour-blind politics, here's another phrase

:15:35.:15:40.

from the most recent OECD report, which says that by international

:15:40.:15:43.

standards, the link between race and poverty in South Africa is

:15:43.:15:50.

still remarkably strong. But it has improved. One of the fastest-

:15:50.:15:57.

growing groups in South Africa... And I am absolutely sure of my

:15:57.:16:02.

facts in this regard. The percentage of, if you analyse the

:16:02.:16:06.

so-called middle class, if you analyse the percentage of blacks

:16:06.:16:14.

grown exponentially and quite dramatically. All right, let's get

:16:14.:16:20.

a bit personal then, to examine how make, let me ask you some personal

:16:20.:16:24.

questions. Waded live, just outside of Cape Town, is than, is tha

:16:24.:16:30.

neighbourhood now? These so called for more white neighbourhoods have

:16:30.:16:36.

more mixed. So when you walk down your street, do you see a genuine

:16:36.:16:41.

mix of faces and colours? In my particular street, no, but five

:16:41.:16:47.

blocks away from me, yes. Right, so there is a demarcation still. Five

:16:47.:16:52.

blocks away. But five blocks away used to be totally white. What

:16:52.:16:56.

about in your household? Do you have household staff? What colour

:16:56.:17:01.

are they? Three of them are coloured and two are black, and

:17:01.:17:05.

three of them live on the premises in up raided a house in which we

:17:05.:17:11.

provided for them. What I'm getting out here at... And we are one big

:17:11.:17:16.

family together. There is the best of relationships between us.

:17:16.:17:19.

suppose what I'm getting out, too many people watching this around

:17:19.:17:24.

the world, it will not sound that much different to the by Africa was

:17:24.:17:31.

before 1993 and 1994. Well, let me give you an example. It has changed

:17:32.:17:35.

in the way that this demarcation of living almost in separate

:17:35.:17:41.

compartments has changed dramatically. The way in which, in

:17:41.:17:46.

schools now, all schools are more to racial now. To a lesser or

:17:46.:17:51.

greater extent. Often to a lesser extent. Big one looks at the

:17:52.:17:56.

exclusive universities and the exclusive secondary schools. -- if

:17:56.:18:00.

one. They go out of that way to get black and coloured students. They

:18:00.:18:03.

offer scholarships, they make it financially possible for people of

:18:03.:18:12.

colour to go to the best schools to which they did not go to before. On

:18:12.:18:15.

this side of those who are privileged, there is a real

:18:15.:18:23.

commitment to reach out and to be helpful and to open doors and to

:18:23.:18:28.

move towards a more egalitarian society. I just wonder had you

:18:29.:18:32.

believe the party politics of South Africa can truly become post

:18:32.:18:35.

racial? Because you have already talked about the problem of having

:18:35.:18:40.

an agency which is so dominant, two-thirds of the seats and the

:18:40.:18:45.

votes in your elections go to the ANC. The Democratic Alliance, the

:18:45.:18:49.

main opposition party, it is trying to make inroads. In the last

:18:49.:18:54.

election it a 24% of the vote. But the problem is that if the

:18:54.:18:57.

breakdown that boat, and the 5% of it comes from the black population.

:18:57.:19:01.

The majority of it clearly comes from the White and the coloured

:19:01.:19:07.

population. How does the Democratic Alliance moved beyond that place?

:19:07.:19:10.

do not for one moment dispute the fact that our politics is still

:19:10.:19:17.

racially and ethnically based. Once the ANC split - and they will split.

:19:17.:19:20.

I don't know whether it will be with a big bang or a series of

:19:20.:19:25.

splits. But once that happens, it will enable us to move towards more

:19:25.:19:32.

policy votes, and principally based politics, value-based politics.

:19:32.:19:37.

I suppose one point I am getting at is whether on the most literal

:19:37.:19:40.

level, the main opposition party some time soon has to have a black

:19:40.:19:45.

leader. Helen is a liar has a long record of working for Equality in

:19:45.:19:49.

South Africa, but nonetheless she is a white woman in a majority

:19:49.:19:59.
:19:59.:20:00.

black land. Can that be credible for the main opposition party? --

:20:00.:20:09.

Helen Ziller. I think the question is whether a bug that split occurs

:20:09.:20:13.

there will be another agency, still dominant, maybe with a black leader,

:20:13.:20:17.

and there will be another more radical and fairly left-wing ANC.

:20:17.:20:25.

It depends who will get the trademark ANC. That we will have to

:20:25.:20:29.

see. And then I see room for alliances, between a party like the

:20:30.:20:34.

Democratic Alliance, as it is at the moment, and a moderate ANC

:20:34.:20:39.

party, none of them having 50% of the boat, but together representing

:20:40.:20:44.

the overwhelming majority of all South Africans. Most South Africans

:20:44.:20:50.

are moderate. You are talking about a sea change in South African

:20:50.:20:54.

politics, and huge change from the ANC of Nelson Mandela. And before

:20:54.:20:57.

we finish up what to focus a bit of Nelson Mandela we do. Are you still

:20:57.:21:04.

in touch with him? Yes. I on his wish not to be bothered too much

:21:04.:21:11.

now. He wants solitude in his old age. But yes, we speak of old days,

:21:11.:21:14.

we communicate, my foundation and his foundation communicate with

:21:14.:21:20.

each other and work with each other. He has become a good and valued

:21:20.:21:26.

friend of mine. I highly respected. I am interested used the word

:21:26.:21:29.

friend, because you have been very interesting in what you have said

:21:29.:21:34.

about Mandela. You said recently you do not subscribe to the general

:21:34.:21:38.

hagiography concerning him. He was by no means the St like figure it

:21:38.:21:42.

depicted today. As an opponent, he could be brutal and quite unfair.

:21:43.:21:49.

Yes. In retrospect, perhaps I should have said ruthless. In what

:21:49.:21:55.

way? Ruthless towards you? politicians need to be ruthless at

:21:55.:21:59.

a certain stage. You cannot be an effective leader of a party or a

:21:59.:22:05.

country if you do not at times take decisions which cut to the bone,

:22:05.:22:08.

which are certain people will experience to be brittle or

:22:08.:22:14.

ruthless. I think Margaret Thatcher, for whom I have the highest respect,

:22:14.:22:24.
:22:24.:22:27.

was quite brittle on a number of occasions. I was brittle. -- brutal.

:22:27.:22:30.

The day before Nelson Mandela and I received the Nobel Peace Prize

:22:31.:22:35.

together former he made a vicious attack upon me personally on

:22:35.:22:40.

television. Just one example. I do not bear a grudge about it. I could

:22:40.:22:46.

give you other examples. Every South African, I think, right now,

:22:46.:22:50.

is hoping and praying that Nelson Mandela's help will last as long as

:22:50.:22:54.

it possibly can, but one day he will pass, and that whole era will

:22:54.:22:59.

pass, and I just wonder whether you are worried about the impact of

:22:59.:23:03.

Mandela's passing on South Africa? Because in a sense, his presence in

:23:03.:23:08.

the country has kept a lid on many tensions within. I will give you a

:23:08.:23:12.

reply to that, but once again I just want to complete what I wanted

:23:12.:23:16.

to say about what I recently said. I said that as a footnote in

:23:16.:23:22.

praising him. In mentioning him some more tenuously with five

:23:22.:23:28.

others of the greatest leaders I have met during my political career.

:23:29.:23:34.

He is a very special person. And it was not said in a derogatory way it

:23:34.:23:44.
:23:44.:23:52.

ought to attack his character. -- or to attack. Understood. The ANC

:23:52.:23:55.

has already, unfortunately, tarnished his heritage by doing

:23:55.:24:00.

certain things wrong. Losing the moral compass which she clearly

:24:00.:24:08.

supplied and established for the ANC during his leadership. I think,

:24:08.:24:13.

and let's hope it does not happen soon, but when Mandela goes it will

:24:13.:24:16.

be a moment in which all South Africans will put away their

:24:16.:24:26.
:24:26.:24:28.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS