Sheikh Khalid Bin Ali Al Khalifa - Bahraini Justice Minister HARDtalk

two other US bases in the Pacific. That is it from me. Now it is time

If the royal rulers of Bahrain believe that the recent Grand Prix

The Formula One circus has moved on, but Bahrain's bitter internal

divisions remain. In the absence of dialogue between the government and

pro-democracy protesters, further confrontation seems inevitable. My

guest is Bahrain's justice minister, Sheikh Khalid Bin Ali Al Khalifa.

The monarchy says it has heeded the message of the Arab spring, but has

it? Sheikh Khalid Bin Ali Al Khalifa, in Bahrain, welcome to

HARDtalk. Welcome. Let me ask you first about the fall-out from the

Grand Prix. We saw all those posters put up by your officials

proclaiming that Bahrain was unified. We all know that's not

true, don't we? You must know it as well? I think the Grand Prix is an

opportunity for Bahrain to boost our economy, it's an international

sport, and we were so happy to receive the Grand Prix here in

Bahrain. You may have been happy to receive it, this is what was

concluded afterwards. "For Bahrain's regime the race was a

massive embarrassing failure. For the opposition it was a godsend ".

It is a good boost for the economy. It went very well. It is a sport

and it should not be an opportunity for everyone to take divisions. I

don't think these have anything to do with F1. F1 is for everybody in

Bahrain and it is an international sport. I am not talking about F1

and he won and who lost and the chequered flag, I am talking what

happened around it. We saw Shia villages outside Manama that were

in lockdown during the weekend of the race. We saw international

journalists who were stopped from filming and some were deported. And

we saw violence, including violence that involved a team members from

one of the teams. That was the context, was it not? The context of

Formula One is that it is an international event that has been

held in Bahrain. Sometimes with such an event it can be used by

some people to have some sporadic acts of violence in some areas of

the country. But at the end of the day cancelling Formula One for

example would not be of any benefit to the country or for anyone. The

main issue that we are trying to do so it is that the country is open.

With Formula One over 200 media companies were here, including the

BBC. And it asserts that this is a sport and it is a spectacle and

Bahrain is able to host a sport that has a very good effect on the

economy. The editor of a respected newspaper in your nation, he says

that he is amazed by the state of denial that he finds Bahrain's

officials to be in right now. I guess your words are part of that.

I don't think that we are in any kind of a state of denial. If

you're referring to the things that have happened in February and March,

the procedures that have been taking place since then until now,'

is immense. His Majesty, the Crown Prince, called for constitutional

amendments. The Independent investigation committee that came

to Bahrain and conducted an investigation into events to unveil

the truth... I don't think that we are in denial. We are asserting

that always the doors are open for anyone to join a construct of

dialogue with everyone and move forward with this country. This is

what we are doing. The independent commission of inquiry, which your

government is so proud of, it came up with a whole host of

recommendations for reform. Your government says it has heeded those

calls for reform. But if we look at the way for example the security

forces are currently operating in your country, we don't see real

reform. We see the rhetoric but we don't see real reform, which I

guess is why for example in the last few days we saw a protester

found dead with gunshot wounds on a rooftop in a village close to

Manama. That is the reality? reality is that since we received

the report of the independent commission there were major steps

taken during that time. One there has been a national convention that

has been established, it concluded its work very recently and they

made another report from his Majesty implementing 15 measures to

put everything on track. There are lots of reforms in the field of

accountability and the field of dealing with the protesters. There

is a special investigation now established in the Public

Prosecutions. The ombudsman that have been created as well is

another sign of progress. We need to apply it right and that is what

we care about. It is not a matter of speed. It takes time and we are

committed to it and we are following this up very closely.

want to follow it up very closely as well. We will talk about

accountability and specific procedural reform inside the police

in a moment. But let's stick to what happens on the ground. Your

contention is that these days the security forces are operating in a

different way to the way they operated in the so called Pearl

Iprising in the spring of 2011. If we look on the ground at what

happens day by day, we still see excessive are necessary use of

force by Bahrain's security forces. Allow me to disagree with you on

this. What I see and what everybody sees is there is an escalation in

violence in some areas in the country. You are referring to

specific incidents that are now being investigated. Whether we are

dealing with a situation of a pre- protests or some people that have a

problem with each other. Every case that is related to excessive force

or degrading treatment is being seen now by a special investigation

units. In any country that is having some challenges they have to

take the necessary measures to face these challenges and to spare the

population and spare the security and make sure there's a better

future for everybody. This should be according to the international

laws of human right. Are you trying to tell me you have a satisfactory

explanation for the fact that for example in recent months we have

seen a 14-year-old child and than 80-year-old civilian both killed as

a result of tear-gas used by the security forces, who clearly now

target houses as well as demonstrations with their tear-gas

canisters. There's no direct relation between having a sporadic

act of violence. You need to use the least necessary force to

disperse people who are using Molotov cocktails or firebombs

against security forces. Now they are even using bombs. They are

using the minimum necessary equipment. A 14-year-old and than

80-year-old had been killed by the use of tear-gas targeted inside

homes. Can I just add to this? Any kind of weapon or tool that you

have to use must be proportionate. When somebody claims they have lost

their lives because of these tools they are subject to investigation.

To come to a conclusion saying that they are dying like this without

proper investigation is not fair. You need the solid facts to deal

with it. I'm sure you read the catalogue of incidents released by

the Bahraini authorities, Amnesty International as well. Amnesty's

report looks at the series of has taken. The Bahraini authorities

cannot claim that these reforms are being put in place when hundreds of

people are in jail solely for asking for a change of government.

untrue. If you look at the incidences that had happened to

Bahrain, things that are related to freedom of speech, the Attorney

General requested to drop charges related to article 168, related to

freedom of speech. His Majesty said anything said against the regime

would be not taken to court. I know exactly what is being done on the

ground. There are serious investigations on the incidences.

We are going forward. You are using interesting sleight-of-hand there.

You know there are many people in prison because of trying to topple

the government. These reports have been dismissed as being entirely

inadequate. You are referring to the National Safety course

established. These courts do not exist anymore. There are cases that

have been subject to review. They have already been dismissed. There

is no need to link the two things. Forgive me, Minister. There is a

real reason real reasonany of these cases are at the forefront

of the inte of the inte community's mind and the Bahraini people's mind

right now. Let me point you to the case of R Khawaja, he is on hunger

strike right now, his daughter is in prison now because she had the

temerity to protest about the treatment of her father. Are you

telling me right now you're proud of your government's treatment of

Khawaja? Let me put it first in general terms. What we are having

now in the courts are cases that are not related technically to any

kind of cases that are against the You made that point already. It is

a circular argument because people like him were imprisoned by

military courts on protest and then charged with efforts to topple the

government because they were exercising their right to free

speech. This is completely not true. His case is being seen by the

highest court in the country, the Civil Court, and the accusations

directed at him are related not to the issue of freedom of speech but

the use of illegal means and violence to overthrow the

government. It is not for me to comment on any specific issue.

is for you surely to answer this one question: As I understand it,

the key evidence against Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja was his own confession.

But the independent commission of inquiry said that at the time he

was arrested and charged, forces of your government used excessive

force and torture. How can any confession made at that time be a

credible piece of evidence with which to imprison this man for

life? If you have any confession and there is any question about the

legality of this confession, this would be disregarded by any court

in the country. We are not trying to come here and establish a trial.

This evidence is being seen by the highest court in the country. The

main issue if we are referring to Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja, we have a big

concern about his health and we hope he will enjoy good health as

well as any other detainees. are the Justice Minister, I want

this on the record, you do accept that at the time of his arrest,

detention and trial, that according to your own independent commission,

the use of torture was systematic? Do you accept that? In relation to

Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja? In relation to the entire system. It was

endemic. That is what the inquiry found. If we're dealing with the

issue of torture, this is something that is intolerable by all means.

What we're talking about is the Khawaja. I'm not asking you if it

is tolerable. I'm asking you if you accept that during the time of his

trial and conviction that this sort of torture was endemic in your

system? You say you accept the report of your own inquiry. You

must accept what they say. Whatever was listed in the report, we have

accepted it. What I'm saying now is how we are dealing with all the

things that are related to this. I've talked about accountability,

confessions will not be taken once there is any suspicion about the

legality of a confession. And our aim is insisting that any case of

Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja, we are concerned about his health and the

Minister for the Interior said yesterday that his health is fine.

He asserted this. They may have asserted it but we do not know if

his health is fine. His wife tweeted two days ago that since

Monday, she has had no news about her husband. He had at that point

been moved from his military hospital bed where he is refusing

food and water. For you to say he is fine stretches credibility.

I am a certain of is that there was an official announcement by the

Minister of the Interior about the health of Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja. The

last time he was checked, his haemoglobin was normal. At the end

of the day, he took the decision to go into it a voluntary hunger-

strike. As a human rights defender, you have to abide by the

international rules of human rights. But to attack a police man, that is

something that is outside of the realm of that. Your government is

making another terrible mistake. If he does die as a result of his

hunger strike, there will be the most terrible intensification of

violence across your nation. Do you accept that? Firstly, we do not

want anyone to die in or out of prison. Secondly, we have a court

process. If you look at the international practice, I refer you

to the ICTY it were the European Court of Human Rights in dealing

with cases related to hunger strike. The main issue is that he took a

decision not to eat and we hope that he will take another decision

to start eating again. We're providing optimum healthcare

possible. We have a court process that is very important. You talked

earlier about accountability being such an important sign of the way

in which a government is engaging with the reform process. Is it not

the truth that not a single senior officer or political leader of the

security forces and agencies has been held to account for the many

deaths that have occurred in your country since March of 2011. Once

we received the inquiry report, we established a commission and there

have been international experts who have helped us. It was an issue of

accountability and how to deal with that in light of the investigations.

On 28th February 2012, a change in the law to refer all cases from

police courts to normal courts was very recent. We have now more than

121 cases being investigated with over 52 accused. I understand that.

The most senior person currently under investigation is one police

lieutenant. It goes to the top of the security pyramid. Why was it

that the National Security Agency chief responsible for so many

abuses, according to the inquiry, why was he promoted recently? He

was made a national security adviser to the king and given

ministerial rank. We have zero tolerance for any acts of torture.

But my question is why is it that the man who is responsible for the

agency that has done this been given such a massive promotion?

have to establish the facts first that there are cases of torture and

there is someone directly responsible for that. Then,

according to the recommendations, you have to go higher and establish

responsibility. You have to establish whether a superior knows

about it, whether he ordered it. You must investigate it to see what

kind of realities are there and then you can go higher up to

establish responsibility. That is what is being done now. I can

assure you that whoever has been involved in these apparent

violations will not be tolerated. In the end, it will take a dialogue

to defuse the crisis your country faces. Are you ready to talk to

people like Nabeel Rajab and other leaders of the protest movement?

are open to dialogue with anyone who would like a dialogue. His

Majesty asserted that dialogue is open to everyone. The main issue is

that we should not go for dialogue while other people are trying to

tearaway from each other. We're trying to get everyone together. I

was sad to hear one of the biggest opposition parties saying that if

there is a dialogue to be conducted, it should be representative of the

government. There are major developments that are being done

and it should let everyone contribute. Very briefly minister,

the US government is saying that if you now do not use maximum

restraint, they will look very poorly upon your government. What

is concerning us is the security of this country and the unity of our

people. We will not spare any effort to save these things. We are