Sir John Sulston - Nobel Prize-winning scientist HARDtalk


Sir John Sulston - Nobel Prize-winning scientist

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suspicion has fallen on Boko Haram. Science is constantly changing and

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deepening our understanding of ourselves and our planet. Is it

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time to give scientists a more prominent role in the debate about

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humanity's strategic choices - economic, political and

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environmental? My guess today is already in the thick of that debate.

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Sir John's Alston is a Nobel prize- winning molecular biologist who led

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the Royal Society study into the global impact of population growth

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two decades on from the global Earth Summit. Can science help the

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Sir John Sulston, welcome to HARDtalk. You have spent many years

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inside a lab studying a tiny, tiny species of one in the most minute

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detail, yet you sit here and in the last few months you have been

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pondering the future of planet Earth. Is there a connection

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between those to make intellectual pursuits or have you changed your

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priorities? No - there is absolutely a connection. It

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illustrates very well that science always raises as many questions as

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it answers. When you work on one problem, you find yourself working

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on something else, with the one, I watched the sell the visions and

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worked them out and then we wanted to get at the genes to find out how

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they were controlled. -- the cell divisions. I had to work on the DNA.

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I had to work on all of the DNA. The work on the entire genetic

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make-up of the animal. Our lads had got good at doing that. This is

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through the 1990s. -- Labs. That in turn will lead me on to social

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issues because I discovered... Wide bay lead you want to social issues?

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So many great scientists stay in the laboratory and you left the

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laboratory. It is a terrible disappointment! I eventually

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admitted I was not doing laboratory anymore. It is about the data and

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the access to the data that we have not just drawn from the were more

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these human but all matters of a -- manner of animals and plants. This

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is the basic stuff of biology and everyone should have access to it

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regardless of their wealth. It is the building blocks of life. Before

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we get to the big questions, the', let's stick with the micro. Did you

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realise that, through these dealings with the microscopic worm,

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did you realise it would lead you to dealing with humans? Place to go

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to parties and people would say, "Have you really spent 20 years

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working on something you cannot see?" And died said yes. It turns

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out the pieces of that one's machinery is -- were's machinery

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are quite similar to pieces of our machinery. It has neurons and nerve

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cells that connect. An example of something that did transfer was the

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mechanism of cell death. It is an important part of our development.

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The reason we have digits and not webbed feet is because cells die.

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The control of that process is very important. It is also important in

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cancer, to stop tumours growing. It is important cells do not die in

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the nervous system. Neurone degeneration is one of the problems

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we have. All of these processes are controlled, in part, in jeans that

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you can find exact equivalents for in that one. -- genes. -- that worm.

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What percentage can you put on the amount of DNA that the worm has in

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common with the human? It is less than 50%. I do not know the exact

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number. It is a grey scale. You can find partial matches for some and

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exact matches for other. A lot of the basic mechanisms of handling

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house sales grow and things like that are similar. -- how cells grow.

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In 2002, Bill Clinton was there to announce the human genome mapping.

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He came up with a phrase that a piece said that we had discovered"

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the language with which God created life -- we had discovered, "The

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language with which God created life." Do you believe that now? My

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old mentor raised the point that if DNA is the language with which we

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create God. You are the son of an Anglican priest. He was a man

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involved in missionary work for a while. The reversal you have made

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it suggests you are somewhat sceptical about the role of God.

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Are you? The role of God is most probably a construct that humans

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create for their own purposes, which is exactly what Sydney were

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saying. -- was saying. It now seems to me the mapping of the human

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genome has opened up a new world in biology and medicine. Can we now

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determine how human beings will live, what they might die from ant

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can we put for the proposition that they can be repaired, perhaps

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before birth? -- and can we. It is -- it should not be so strongly

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stated. Our genes are the recipe book for starting us off. All kinds

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of defects in the genes can be discovered, that we can then find

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drugs for or it may be one day replace. Gene therapy is much

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harder. -- or maybe one day they can be replaced. One of the first

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Defects to be sorted out, cystic fibrosis, we do not have the gene

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therapy for. They have been advances in the treatment of cystic

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fibrosis but not through gene therapy. You have to consider

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profound ethical questions. It is a question of delivery. Cystic

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fibrosis, they thought you would be able to squirt genetic material

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into the lungs, but that does not work. The question is should will

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be doing it? Should we be coming close to a situation where one

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could see, as we develop this idea, human beings can be perfected.

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Impairments in the human being could be eradicated. A motorcyclist

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was injured in a motorcycle accident and the surgeon put it

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together with pieces of metal - that was before. When I talk about

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possible cures for cystic fibrosis, squirting genes into the lungs,

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that would be somatic gene therapy, if it worked. You are now thinking

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about - and I agree this is a much more interesting field - to go into

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the embryo. There are ethical reasons to not do that. I like to

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pin you down. You are one of the most influential scientists in the

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UK today. Is there a real apical question about the amount of work

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that should be done on the genetics of embryos? Get a good question. If

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you can improve the quality of life of the embryo very markedly then

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there might be a case for it. E Peters a matter of a more cosmetic

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thing, there may not be. -- if it is a matter. I will be very much

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against doing much with embryos at all because we are not good enough

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at predicting the exact result of inserting a new bit of material.

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That raises questions of privatisation in research and

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funding, because, if the judgement is made that it is ethically

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acceptable and desirable, it may be that that is where research monies

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is -- are final. If the judgement is that it is dangerous and we

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should be leery of it then it might not get the funding that might make

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it better. That is why we have medical committees that have

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scientists and lay people discussing the possibilities and

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outcomes. -- ethical committees. The question then is how the

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balance the dominance of the scientific community against the

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views of the lay people. -- how to balance. Scientists should be

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encouraged to research all they can but when it comes to rolling out

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the products of research then there should be a very broad information.

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Scientists are experts and when it comes to ethical questions, there

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should be a mini democracy about it. We have not talked about

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commercialisation. In your field of Microbiology, cellular work, you

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were always aware that there were other people in your field that

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were driven by the profit motive in a way that perhaps he were not. --

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you were not. You seem to take the view now that the profit motive

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should be kept out of this sort of work. I don't think I said that.

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You said that one point that it would be very worrying, very wrong

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if capitalism got control of the tune in genome. I was talking about

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the fundamental data. -- the human genome. The issue with Craig was

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weather data was going to be owned and marketed by a single

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corporation or was it going to be shared and accessible to everybody?

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Where I come from, in my lifetime, is the place where people regarded

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public goods very highly. I think we have to get back to regarding

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public goods that highly. I dare say - I didn't want to put words

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into on mouth - but I dare say Craig Venter was sitting here, he

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would say that a desire for profit is one of the best ways of stirring

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up the creativity that produces innovation. If you take that away,

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innovation might come much more slowly. I don't think that is true.

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If you look at history, tremendous innovation was done in the public's

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fear. Vaccines were not made in this way. The polio vaccines were

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done by government and charitable funding and by people who cared

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much more about curing kids with polio then they did about making

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profit. I will just point out that there are other ways of doing

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things. When Craig Venter says that the human genome pases bought out

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there for all to see, in reality the people that benefit most from

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that are the big pharmaceutical companies, who do not have to pay

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for the basic research, can put a twist on it, patent it and use it

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for huge profits. In the system at the moment it is important that

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those companies have access to the data. He feels badly about this

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because his company tried very hard to put patterns themselves on the

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genes. He feels badly about it because he thought that people like

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It never got to that point because the public side remained in

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competition. Let me points had one more thing. This data is shared by

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all countries, all policies. It is not just America and the UK. That

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is important, that we do not have a volume of important data are

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falling out of jurisdiction. I have put this argument in terms of money

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and proffered but there is another way of looking at this and that is

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basic security -- proffered. Some people at their would be inclined

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to appease the sorts of information you and others are putting out

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their -- out there. The latest research on avian flu and the way

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to which researchers have found it can cross over from birds to small

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mammals. The federal authorities in the US responsible for by a

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security said you should not publish some of this because it

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could get into the wrong hands. Surely you can be worried? They

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have moved on. They have had lengthy discussions. People in this

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country and other countries have been involved. They have decided

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that it is better to publish. Why? When you redux something you draw

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attention to it and say it is dangerous. You make sure every

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wrongdoer will be homing in on this stuff. The only safe way to go is

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to publish everything as much as you can because then you are open

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to dealing with it, to cures as well as to abuse. You have a benign

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view of human nature? No but I think wrongdoing behind-closed-

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doors is more dangerous than having things opener so you can look at

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what is going on. There is no other choice -- Open. Science should not

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have a tool used, good and bad. I do not like the implication that

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there is one or another. There is a huge grey area? However, there is

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the notion that you can somehow exclude the bad bits. That is

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simply a false hope. We have to deal with it in other ways and look

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for people who are abusing it, whether it is distributing a

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disease. Bear in mind that having it in the public domain gives

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people access to having vaccines in advance. What we nice to do in the

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lab will be done by evolution in the long run -- what we achieve.

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You have moved from the lab to the smaller public sphere. You have

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been working under the auspices of the Raj society, looking at the

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future impact of population growth -- Royal Society. It is picking up

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on the Rio Earth Summit a few years ago. I quote to use the words of

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the leader of that summer. -- to you. -- that a summit. He said that

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either we have to reduce our population or nature will do that

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brutally for us. Do you think that still applies? Yes. But the moments

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when that wides this indeterminate and it is not sudden. You do not

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just run a long and run off a cliff. What will happen is that if we do

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not move things in the right direction they will move in the

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wrong direction. There is an important thought. The great late

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18th century thinker on resources and population growth predicted

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that we would repeatedly asked of our abilities to feed ourselves and

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therefore there would be the most cataclysmic falls in a global human

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population. Time after time people who followed his line of thinking

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have been proven wrong. It sounds to me like you are up a support of

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is? I am not. I am not using a single equation -- a supporter of

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him. Let's begin with facts. Let's begin with the impact of us, people,

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on the earth. It is extremely visible in a way that it was not in

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the 18th century. It was predicted before and people side a former

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think but let's look into that a bit further. Right now we are

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causing climate change. I said that unequivocally. I know people would

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criticise that statement but the overwhelming weight of evidence is

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that we are now causing climate change through our emissions of

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carbon dioxide and we are going further down that line. Is that the

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most dangerous result, consequence, of population growth? That is an

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immediate and present one and it will cause, if we do not arrested

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in some way, caused rising sea levels and the flooding of coastal

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areas. It will also lead to the reduction in crop yields in areas

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that are becoming drought-stricken. As part of this study I visited

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Ghana. You can read more broadly in many studies but it in Ghana people

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have had to migrate from the north where the format is drying up to

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the south. They are having to live in a informal housing -- farmland.

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It is not good for them and their teacher and the feature of their

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children, and this is because of climate change. -- the future.

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do not have much time. It seems to me to be ironic that you are

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worried about the continuing rise in population, some say over 9

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billion by 2050, and yet your scientific research, all of the

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things we talked about a earlier about genetics and the

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understanding of how we are bills, suggests you are one important

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player in the advances we have made that mean human beings live longer

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lives? That is the thing. We do not want to end miserably. We want

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everybody to lead healthy and fulfilling lives. That is why we

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have to pay attention. Look... Terry? Foreign severally. We know

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that there are over 200 million women who would like to have access

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to materials to avoid their next pregnancy -- foreign territory.

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Conception? Yes. -- volunteering. I think it is extremely important for

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their health and the education of the children that they are able to

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limit their families and they should have this need for full.

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Earlier he said you had a benign it view of? -- earlier you said you

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had a benign view of human beings. Are you underestimating the way in

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which human beings have come up with technology to deal with the

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pressure of population? No. We are conscious of the fact we should not

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underestimate that ability but we are looking at a set of things. We

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have talked about climate change but let's move on. One problem is

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species species at a race of probably 1,000

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times a rate of before human beings. You may not care about other

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species of care about the environment. I do care but I am

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aware that we have had mass extinctions before. This is the

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first one caused by the actions of a single species. We are throwing

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away the possibilities of future medicines for the future and

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destroying our capabilities in other ways. We are over using

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fertilisers in a way that is necessary to feed people but is

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causing problems in our estuaries. A whole series of challenges add up.

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I quote from you. You say we cannot continue as we have done. Have you

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any clear prescription of what we must do? The important thing before

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we end is to say that although we have talked about population it is

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also consumption. Population and consumption matter. So they have to

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be constraints? Somewhere we have to be persuaded. Constraint is not

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the word. And unless everybody is convinced that constrained is

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required, material consumption needs to be reduced. It is about

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