Nhial Deng Nhial - Foreign Minister of South Sudan HARDtalk


Nhial Deng Nhial - Foreign Minister of South Sudan

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is is in trouble. Less then one year

:00:17.:00:20.

after independence from Khartoum, the South and its much larger

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northern neighbour are confronting each other over oil reserves,

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borders and territory. Sporadic fighting has prompted mutual

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recrimination and talk of all out war. My guest today is South

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Sudan's Foreign Minister, Nhial Deng Nhial. The African Union and

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the United Nations are pushing hard for a negotiated settlement, but is

:00:42.:00:52.
:00:52.:01:13.

The Foreign Minister, Nhial Deng Nhial, welcome to HARDtalk. Glad to

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be here. We saw all those fireworks last July, the big celebrations in

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Juba as South Sudan declared its independent statehood. And now here

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you are, locked in an ugly confrontation with Khartoum. Are

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you surprised? No, not at all. The current situation was to be

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expected, given the fact that there is a lot of unfinished business in

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terms of the implementation of the peace agreement. Cartoon signed up

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to certain commitments under the agreement, it ignored part of those

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commitments, reneging on some of the most important ones, in

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particular, the demarcation of the border. Now there is a fundamental

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misconception about the borderline. Let's not get too technical too

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early. It distracts me, that even as you refer to this unfinished

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business, it was probably deeply premature - maybe even crazy - to

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declare statehood, to oversee this independence, when, as you have

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just said, you didn't have demarcated borders, you had major

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territorial disputes, you hadn't settled to own to the boil and he

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was going to receive the payments for the oil. All these key issues

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were left unresolved. So why did she think that nation had could

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work? From the word go, I think Khartoum was intent on frustrating

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the will of the people of South Sudan. They never wanted

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independence to take place, especially after it became quite

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clear that the majority of people in South Sudan were going to vote

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for statehood. The borders were supposed to be demarcated during

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the interim period. That was six months before the onset of the

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interim period proper, but cut to drag its feet and it never wanted

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to do this, because Khartoum understood that on the basis of the

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existing Borderline, if you applied that as the criteria for

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determining where disputed or contested areas fell, it would lose

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all of the current contested areas, without exception. Of course, it is

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not so clear-cut when you look at it from Khartoum. Their history of

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whether border lies is quite different. But let's talk about

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recent weeks, because that is where the international focus is right

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now. Would you accept, given what has recently happened, that your

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military forces from South Sudan fairly catastrophically over a

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plate - and when they pushed all the way into the town and the

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:03:56.:03:57.

surrounding region of Heglig? -- overplayed backhand. To be clear to

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people who are not familiar with the map, Heglig is close to the

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disputed border, it is an oil town and an ordeal region, and it is, if

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regarded, regarded, and certainly regarded in

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Khartoum, as Northern territory. And your troops went across the

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notional demarcation line and occupied the town. We did not

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occupied the town. We went to the town by default, because when we

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went to Heglig, that was the third time overall that Heglig was used

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as a base to launch attacks against our own forces deep inside South

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Sudan. So when we repulsed the third and the final attack, we kept

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on going, and found ourselves in Heglig as an occupied town. But

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Heglig belongs to South Sudan. It was transferred to the North's only

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in the late 1970s when oil was discovered dead. Again, as I said,

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if you go by the criteria of the old border line, which has not yet

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been agreed, but the parties, the South and the North, know that

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Heglig would fall south of the line along with all the other disputed

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areas. I expect we could get into a complicated debate about whether

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border falls, and I don't want to spend too much time on that, but

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all I'm saying is that the Court of international arbitration, in 2009,

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drew a map which suggested quite clearly that Heglig would fall on

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the northern side of the border. That is and his characterisation of

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what happened with the building. The ruling was not on Heglig, it

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was on Abyei. I know. Heglig was said not to be in Abyei, and

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therefore it was widely seen across the international community that

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Heglig was going to belong to the north, to Sudan. Not belonging to

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Abyei does not automatically imply that it falls in the north, and

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there was no explicit statement in the ruling that said it did.

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could discuss this to kingdom come, but this is not the end. This

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should be something you sorted out with the government and Khartoum,

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nobody else can sort it out. But what is clear is that as a result

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of your troops pushing into Heglig - you can characterise Italian like,

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but that is what happened - he lost a lot of international support. Ban

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Ki-Moon said the Act was an infringement on the sub-committee

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of Sudan and it was a clear the illegal act. Those comments are

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based on a misunderstanding of the status of Heglig. We did not want

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to assert a claim by military means. We wanted to neutralise a town that

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was being used as a base to attack us. You may have your reasons, but

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I wanted to address this point, that South Sudan, in the nine or

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ten months of its existence, seems to have lost a lot of international

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sympathy because of some of the actions you have taken. And the

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number one that action was the decision to put your trips all the

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way into Heglig. Do you regret it? As I said, we did not go into

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Heglig intentionally. Because you are saying it is not intentional,

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are you tacitly nous intimidated was a mistake? I don't think it was

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a mistake, because fundamentally we did not want to claim our

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territories by military means. We are fairly confident, in the south,

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that if we fall back on the old Borderline, the criteria for

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determining the status of disputed areas, Heglig would accrue to the

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Republic of South Sudan. So we had no intention or desire to use

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military means to enforce a claims. Is that right? I just wonder, if

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days, days, we have seen crowds in due

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but burning Sudanese flags, and one of your colleagues in the Cabinet

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table, and the environment minister, telling crowds that we will win

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Heglig and Abyei? A clear implication that you will win it by

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think that is what he meant. People were burning flags. He behaved in a

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manner that was not befitting in a statement or a head of state, for

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that matter. The President of Sudan. So people were frustrated. But it

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is a fundamental tenet of our foreign policy that we will only

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seek to recover territory is that we have lost through peaceful means.

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Through peaceful means. So can you here and now one HARDtalk confirmed

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to me that ordeal security forces, whether they are army or police,

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will be pulled out of all of the disputed areas? Absolutely.

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Instructions have already been given to a police force in appeared

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:08:41.:08:41.

to pull out. When will they pull out? Very soon. How soon? Very soon.

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But for the people on the ground, particularly the civilians in Abyei,

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who feel that they are besieged on both sides, they want to know when

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they can expect to see this demilitarisation completed. Well,

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we have already expressed a desire for me demilitarisation. I just

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wonder if you have learnt a lesson here. You say that it was no big

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your intention to win by military means, but perhaps you have learned

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over the last few weeks that if it comes to a shooting match, you are

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not going to win. President Omar al-Bashir the other day said that

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the only language they understand in the south is the language of the

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gun, which prompted a lot of people to look at the military balance.

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And although you have a lot of people in a military forces, you do

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not have the aircraft, the tanks, artillery to really compete with

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the North. And perhaps you have come to realise that. I do not want

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to go down the path of the Omar al- Bashir, but the fact is we arrive

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very resilient people. We have no desire or intention to pursue a

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military conflict with Omar al- Bashir. But if a military conflict

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is going to be imposed on us by the North, then I think our resilience

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will enable us to win. Do you think all out war is still a possibility?

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It is a possibility, but I think it is receding, in view of the

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decisions that have been taken by the African Union peace and

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security council, and which we understand will form the basis of

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the UN Security Council resolution. So you are saying that the focus

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right now is on diplomacy, not on fighting? Let's pursue that a

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little bit. The special envoy to this conflict from the African

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Union said that in essence, there has to be, within the next few days,

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the beginning of a m dialogue between you and the North,

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and ultimately there has to be a settlement of the key issue, which

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is border demarcation, territorial dispute, and the oil issue, over

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the next three months, and if there is not an agreement over the next

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three months, then the African Union will impose a binding

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settlement. Are you prepared to accept that? Absolutely, and I

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think credit has to go to the African Union for that. The African

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Union is starting to live up to its responsibilities. So you will be

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done to buy it? Even if they disagree with what you just told me

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about the status of Heglig or Abyei, you'll absolutely committed the

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African Union resolution? Yes, and we are very confident that a case

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is strong. Well, they're very confident in Khartoum as well. The

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that they too are being explicit that even if you lose the case, you

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will abide by it all decisions? Well, cartoon is still dragging its

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own feet about whether to agree but the African Union resolution or not.

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Some of your diplomats have said things very differently. One of

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your senior diplomats in Nairobi said to be news wires the other day

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that the envoy from the African Union was Patterson, and not

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credible? -- Patterson. Well, the process leaves something to be

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desired. But you said you were entirely happy by it and will sign

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up towards conclusions. It is not the work of the envoy, it is the

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work of the African Union. But he personifies the African Union

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diplomatic mission right now. well, we would like to see him work

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collaboratively with the other African Union organs, because the

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process that he is leading need support, and the process that has

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:12:29.:12:30.

been decided by the African Union... the United Nations Security Council

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is very concerned about the fighting we have seen in the last

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few weeks. And they have said to both Juba and Khartoum, that if you

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do not stop the fighting now, we may well consider sanctions under

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Article 41. That is not such a big deal for Khartoum, because they

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have lived with sections for a long time, but it comes back to my point

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about you losing international sympathy. If there was any talk of

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sanctions being imposed on South Sudan, that would be a terrible

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indictment of your strategy, wouldn't it? I can assure you we

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would not be the reason for triggering tensions under Article

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41. -- sanctions. But they are actually considering it as the

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ultimate punishment if you do not sit around the table. So I am

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asking you, if you consider that looking back over the past few

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weeks, did just strategy backfired? We have always been around the

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table. If you read press statements, there is a very clear indication

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that we want to talk to Khartoum. President Omar al-Bashir has about

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that he will not sit around the table until he has taught us a

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lesson, and we have consistently maintained that there is no

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solution except through dialogue. OK, so we have talked about the

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territorial dispute and the border, and obviously your positions and

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cartoons positions are still quite far apart, but you have said that

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he will accept the African new diplomatic initiative. Let's talk

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about what underpins all of this, which is oil, and money. The fact

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is, is it not, that what we have seen in the past few weeks is that

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the weakness of your new nation has been terrib been terribd. Because you

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cut off oil production, partly to punish Sudan, because they would

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not then get the revenues from the Transits. But in so doing, you have

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decimated urine economy. -- Europe own economy. The point was not to

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punish Sudan. Once cartoon started confiscating and diverting our oil,

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in December and January, we hoped that this process would stop.

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Because all the while we were negotiating what would be a fair

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transit fee to pay to Khartoum. In doing the deal to accept

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nationhood, cartoon has seen its revenue fall by up billions of

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dollars. They have a black hole to fill in their budget. One way to do

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that is to put up the price of transmitting your oil to the Red

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Sea port. What would be a fair price for the pipeline transit of

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your oil to the Red Sea? That is subject to negotiations. Let's talk

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able part bigger. Khartoum has demanded 36 but that is outrageous.

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What are you prepared to pay? are already paying the

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transportation costs and we will pay something that is reasonable

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MIT of international standard practice. You say $36 per barrel is

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unreasonable, what is reasonable? Others pay 41 per barrel. So less

:15:43.:15:53.
:15:53.:15:57.

than a dollar? He was saying something like 60. It seems that

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what you're saying is not realistic. We're looking for a fair commercial

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deal. The point of departure for Khartoum is that they have to get

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the welfare and the way at our expense. But the oil pipeline that

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you need to use goes through their territory. But the people of South

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Sudan find it very difficult to accept that they will be

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blackmailed into paying these outrageous sums. This goes to the

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viability of state in your current strategy. I have seen some of their

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ministers talking airily about building a new pipeline, perhaps

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through Kenya.Best in the massive infrastructure project that

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represents when you win a possibly going to be at war with Sudan? They

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have an air force and you don't, they can bomb ate any pipeline

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project they choose to target. He will invest and that? I think we're

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likely to be able to attract investors because of the oil

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resources we still have. Even in the current instability? I do not

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think it will last. If President Bashir is on the warpath, it will

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be disastrous. He is trying to wage and political difficulties.

:17:21.:17:24.

have political difficulties of Tyrone. We Tyrone. We Tyrone. We

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the queues for fuel because of the lack of production in your own

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country. We have seen the value of your privacy plummet against the US

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dollar since his halting of well We are fully aware of the

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:17:57.:17:57.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

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The flow of oil will not be disrupted or confiscated. We will

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be more than happy to sign an agreement. When you said two years,

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did you mean two years of difficulties or two years where we

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:19:11.:19:11.

anticipate we will not be exporting oil this pipeline? Which is it? I

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looked at John Ministry of Finance figures and oil is 98% of your

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state revenues. You can't live without 98% of your revenues.

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have already put in place the austerity measures. It will be more

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than austerity if you have lost 90% of your income. We can survive.

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South Sudan has been at war for close that -- close to three

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decades. We have had nothing for all this time. We can adapt. It

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will be tough, but I think we will survive. Should I take it that this

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pipeline project, which you said is realistic will start very quickly

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hitting towards Kenya? We would like it to start as soon as

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possible. Negotiations are under way. Who will invest? In I would

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not like to say that right now. There are countries that have

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expressed interest. focus has been about the dispute

:20:17.:20:22.

with Khartoum. People may be surprised to learn that actually,

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some of the nastiest violence we have seen in your country does not

:20:28.:20:37.

the North, but is an internal problem. According to the UN, there

:20:37.:20:45.

are perhaps 200,000 civilians displaced and maybe 3,000 people

:20:45.:20:50.

killed in ethnic and tribal conflict. If any government's first

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priority has to be to deliver security to its own people, you're

:20:54.:21:03.

feeling. We have started a campaign of disarmament and it is going well.

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The problem of proliferation of arms in the hands of the civilian

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population is that it is manu

:21:14.:21:20.

manufacturing -- manufacture arms. But we're starting the disarmament

:21:20.:21:24.

campaign and it will be extended to other areas. At the end of last

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year, the minority rights international conference suggested

:21:27.:21:34.

that if things did not change quickly, there was a potential

:21:34.:21:40.

genocide looming. Do you fear that could be true? Not at all. That is

:21:40.:21:46.

a huge exaggeration. And efforts are being directly supported by the

:21:46.:21:54.

when. They can attest to the fact that the programme is successful.

:21:54.:21:59.

We are talking about security or we could talk about corruption, which

:21:59.:22:07.

has been an issue for Euro administration. Their allegations

:22:07.:22:11.

that money has disappeared with the new adminis new adminisIt does to the

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question of what there you and your fellow ministers are really showing

:22:17.:22:21.

the competence that is necessary to lead your nation in very difficult

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circumstances. I can confidently say that regarding the war against

:22:29.:22:33.

corruption, significant strikes have been made of. A deadline was

:22:33.:22:37.

set for all senior government officials to make a declaration of

:22:37.:22:47.
:22:47.:22:47.

you do that? Absolutely. What are you worth? I don't know. It is

:22:47.:22:52.

supposed to be confidential. just told me you happily made the

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declaration. You must know what to declare. I did and they do but it

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is supposed to be confidential. is not transparent if it is

:23:05.:23:13.

confidential. The law says you make a confidential declaration of your

:23:13.:23:16.

assets and liabilities and if something transpires, have that

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information can be used. That is a decision that can't be taken by the

:23:21.:23:31.
:23:31.:23:32.

public at large, it is all secret. They can't draw conclusions. There

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is an anti-corruption commission which this conflict with Sudan --

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north Sudan is a useful distraction for your government given the other

:23:48.:23:56.

problems South Sudan faces? Khartoum it is a useful distraction.

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We do not want to occupy the areas we think belong to us by force.

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