Nasser Judeh - Foreign Minister of Jordan HARDtalk

and a boy died. That is the headlines. Now it is

time for HARDtalk. Jordan has survived the Arab Spring

are relatively unscathed. At least, so far. Perhaps it is because the

king has promised reforms. He is now on his fourth prime minister

since the last year and the changes proposed so far will not do enough

to satisfy critics. They say King Abdullah is buying time, not

serious about reform. This in a country that is seen as critical to

peace in the region. My guess to today is a NASA Judeh, Jordan's

Welcome to HARDtalk. Four prime ministers since the start of last

year would suggest that Jordan is having a problem with its reforms.

Can it changed enough to satisfy its people and to avoid the

uprising that many of your neighbours have seen? I would start

by saying the problem may be in the pace of reform rather than reform.

You have seen change, the changes of government so frequently in the

last 12-14 months simply because we have reform from the top, the King

who has set the ultimate goal of reforming. We have Parliamentary

government, we are waiting on the legislation through the parliament.

It is a problem of the pace of reform. At the end of the day, it

is not about the number of governments, the number of prime

ministers, it is about the reform being on track. He has been intent

on having elections before the end of the year... The last government

left office because the king promised... We will get into that.

He was the first to resign before he was pushed. That is part of the

argument. He is forcing the pace of elections intent on change but it

is still the case that there will be elections to a parliament and

then the king will decide who the prime minister is, who runs the

government. Not quite. One has to understand the Jordanian political

system. The king has the constitutional power to appoint a

prime minister. This Prime Minister has to present to the lower house

of parliament his political programme. That is the system.

Democratic systems around the world, people, would want to choose their

own government. Under the proposed reforms it is still the case that

the King is choosing the prime minister. Different countries have

different systems but we are not in disagreement. At the end of this

process that be king has set up, you would have political parties

elected to Parliament and the King will have to choose the prime

minister based on the majority in parliament... When will that be?

soon as we have elections. By the end of this year the King will

choose the prime minister from the majority? We do not have political

parties as yet. And as you know, the detail of the law means there

is a limit on the size of parties. Only a certain number of seats have

been given over to party lists. Absolutely incorrect. Only a given

number of seats was given, 15 as things stand. The parliament is 130

plus members that can all belong to political parties. To ensure that

there is a broad spectrum, a list was set aside, a quota. The Islamic

Action Front, the political front for the Muslim Brotherhood, saw

that directed at them. Was it? me give you three examples. In 1989

we had a one person multiple vote system that enjoyed a majority for

the Muslim Brotherhood. That moved in 199321 person, one vote system.

-- 1993 to a one person. They are unlikely to stand because they are

not happy. I am assuming they will be allowed to stand. Not only that,

they are encouraged to stand. I am sure you would agree with me that

you cannot have a political, you cannot have electoral law that

services one particular party at the expense of everybody else.

mentioned why the last prime minister had resigned. His decision

to resign was based, and this is a man who spent ten years at The

Hague as a judge, he stood down because of a decision that the king

was effectively overruling him when he was out of the country. The

belief was, the feeling from his side was that despite all the talk

from the King, that the prime minister is running the country,

actually nothing had changed. It is the king who makes the decisions

and was taking them on while the prime minister was out of the

country. The former prime minister is indeed a respected judge and was

at the international court for over a decade. The King sent

recommendations, Letters to heads of state and government to lobby

for his election. He is respected and came against that backdrop. He

came in October 2011 when the King, treaties initiative and through

working with Parliament and the government, managed to pass the

constitutional and then -- amendments. The king brought him,

as the prime minister, to lead us into the next phase of

implementation and reforms. There was disagreement over the pace. I

disagree with you, actually, on the reason why he left. He did indeed

resign, over the fact that the king wanted an ordinary session of

Parliament to be extended in order to finish the law. The prime

minister said no, we need six weeks off with 12 laws... That is, as I

understand it as well but the king called in his deputy and said

"Signed it to extend the parliamentary term or you ago

against your boss." -- signed it or you go. It was the chief of the

Royal Court to give that, passing on messages, as in any system of

government. It cannot have the head of state getting into the daily

details. In Jordan, even when the king might want change, he is

frustrated by those around him. Was it the King's decision? It was the

king's wish according to his constitutional powers that the

parliament be extended so they can continue with political reforms.

The trouble with the argument, and picking said afterwards he was not

performing things fast enough, the trouble is that if he thinks the

Prime Minister was not a fast enough for former look who he has

replaced him with. -- fast enough reformer. He is an ultra-

conservative bureaucrat. Everybody in and -- to him at Jordan says

this is not a man who can reform. Did you actually hear from all

Jordanians who said that? There is a lot of good feeling about him.

And who came before him. Two days after his appointment he sent

through recommendations for the Independent Election Commission.

This is one big test for the first 48 hours in government. I will

quote for you "It does not send a reassuring message about reform."

Others say... I do believe him reform... You became the Foreign

Minister in 2009 but were a minister on and off through the

1990s. You were quite recently married to a cousin of the King and

so I wonder, having been such a close observer of the political

scene in Jordan, when you think the slow pace of reform is coming from.

When beating Gotti in on the death of his father -- a win at the King

got in following the death of his father he promised reform. That we

talk about something extremely important. The king is the

beneficiary of reform. It does not stand to reason that the king is

changing government so he can slow reform, so he can buy time. He is

not only leading for reform, he wants to see it through. He was

asked if he could give up some of his powers in five years and he

said absolutely not. He is comfortable in his skin. If you

look at the last 12 months in Jordan, the Arab Spring that has

come across Jordan as opposed to the turbulent events we have seen

in other countries, it is due to be king. We must have done something

right... Freedom of expression is guaranteed in Jordan. Is it right

that a journalist should be locked up for reporting what he had been

told, that the King told MPs not to indict a former minister. I know

the case, not the details. At the same time you get an over-zealous

prosecutor who locks somebody up. If somebody reports something that

is an inaccurate, based on a piece of here say, they are accountable.

They should be locked up? No, no, I am making it clear that they should

not be. He has been locked up despite protests. There are

countries in the world where people are locked up because of sedition,

even in democratic countries. I am not saying that the system is

perfect. It is doing something right. Can you justify how a

journalist who reports something on a website, is the editor of a

particular website, he is in prison at the moment because of something

he reported, that he was told by an MP. The information has to be

accurate, it doesn't matter who it was told by. I do not know the

details... That is not free speech. No, that means you have to respect

the integrity of others and make sure what the publisher is accurate.

In Jordan we may have our flaws in the system, and you know that, but

we are the first to admit our mistakes? And did you admit that?

We have to look at the information. The King talked about closing

corruption Fars but this is not true. The police, not only do we

guarantee freedom of expression but The King has said, what is it this

case and why has it happened? But you can rehearse his constitutional

Your Foreign Minister in a country with his prep - what with his own

problems. Your neighbouring countries also have problems. Do

you think civil war can be avoided in Syria? It was a chilling moment

to Hugh Kofi Annan speaking, briefing the Security Council. The

failure of his plan might be the It is complicated, considering the

ethnic mosaic. The Christians, the Alawites, the SANA majority. A host

of minorities can represent a majority. It is our only hope at

this time to see Kofi Annan's and succeed. We are concentrating on

one of the aspects of the plan. That is to end the violence. On the

16th of this lot, there will be a beginning of a dialogue between the

opposition and members of the Arab League. They have to be a solution.

But the King was one of the first to say that President Assad has to

go up. The king did say that. He said it was not a question of, yes,

if I were whom I would step down. The system has to change. It is not

about changing faces. As President Assad have to go? It is up to

Syrians. It is not like the situation we have faced in the past.

We have towns on the Syrian and Jordanian border that are committed

to us with each other. We have social connections and families.

Many of our imports come from there. We have interest in this ability of

Syria. That is why we say the military option is not one we want.

We want a political solution that ensures a sleuth transition.

the transition from President Assad... It is up to the Syrian

regime took come to terms with his people. Thousands of Syrians of the

union to Jordan. Jordan has a history of taking refugees. This

includes Palestinians and Iraqis. How stable is it for Jordan?

very. One tends to see that people associate events taking place in

Jordan with the stability or instability of Jordan.

Demonstrations are a source of strength. Opposition is not a

threat to Jordan's stability. Rather his change in government, or

the Arab spring. In the 50s and 60s. Rack my question is about your

ability to absorb the thousands of people. And your readiness for it.

We are ready. We have over 110 Syrians endured of today. This is a

number that people are not aware. This includes people who have

Syrian passports. Broome mac. This is people who have come to Jordan

since the beginning. People have crossed the phones illegally when

they were shot at, seeking refuge, and seeking medical care. People

would come in their cars and flee from Syria. They are refugees

because of the situation there. They moved them to Jordan. They

want to different cities and towns. I am in discussions with different

or international organisations to help them. Jordan has been a haven.

We have many Iraqis and Palestinian refugees. We are going to

accommodate our Palestinian brothers. What about Abu catarrh

Dockers -- Abu Qatada? He claims he would be tortured if he goes back

to Jordan. He claims he will be tortured. Will you be able to prove

to the world that he will not be treat -- mistreated. He was tried

We have to live up to it a lot own The Jordanian constitution bans for

shock and order to gain evidence. - - torture. We will see if he gets a

fair trial if he goes to Jordan. We will pass with flying colours.

Except... It is not just that case. There is great concern of torture.

There is a recent constitutional prohibition. They say it makes

little difference to practise on the ground because of cases that

have come again and again. There is no systematic torture in Jordan. It

is illegal. I deal with human- rights organisations or at the time.

We have opened up prisms. I say, choose any prism you want. In cases

of mistreatment... 31st March, there were demonstrators arrested.

Six of them gave evidence to Human Rights Watch. They said they

received barbaric beating is in custody. One described how police

took name tags off their bags and beat them at will be plucked out.

have not seen this. This was a demonstration of where the

demonstrators attacked the police. Does that make it justifiable?

does not -- I think he would be upset. This is what happened to

demonstrators. They were taken into custody and these beatings happened

in custody. He said his name tag was removed. Police -- he says

police took off their name-tags so there would not be identified.

this 31st March group? There is an investigation into some of these

allegations. But there is no systematic torture in Jordan. It is

illegal. Despite the fact of the European Court cost -- European

port sauce -- European Court's They said the evidence against Abu

Qatada was found on at all sure. That was their outstanding concern.

That is context well. He lost the appeal. When he goes back and faces

retrial, the evidence against him... We know will not be obtained under

torture. It is illegal under the constitution to practise torture or

obtained evidence under torture. Will Abu Qatada be seen in public

again? I would not get into British domestic policies. That is a