Yiannis Milios - economic advisor of the Syriza Party, Greece HARDtalk

the latest European treaty. That is a summary of the headlines.

That's it from me. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

The people of Greece shocked much of Europe by their parliamentary

elections on May 6th when they gave no party the clear majority. The

radical Left was left in second place. My guest opposes the

memorandum which gives Greece the austerity package. My guess is a

top economic adviser. The question is do they believe they can stay in

the eurozone while tearing up the Welcome to HARDtalk. Hello.

Professor, do you like being in the euro? Yes. We say that we would

like to continues to be part of the Monetary Union of the eurozone. We

also believe that our policies will stabilise the eurozone. They will

not pursue -- pursue it to disaster. So you will miss it when you have

to leave? We would not like to leave because we now face, as a

country, and insoluble equation. We would have to pay 110 billion euros

in taxes until the year 2020. We would have to balance the budget

and we have to create funds to boost growth. This is an insoluble

equation because posterity makes things worse and worse. --

austerity. The Greek debt is a barrel without a bottom. It is not

possible for the citizens of Europe to continue to put money into this

part. We would like to stop this. There are many economists who would

agree with your analysis of the problem that you are in a position

which is impossible, but they think you're solution means inevitably

you would have to leave. They say you must warn people responsibly,

not only telling them about the debt but also the road on the exit

of the river. You are on your way out? That man is a former member

and a former president of the coalition. Now we are a party...

But the point is there are people all over Europe who think that

maybe you should get out of the euro and then you can solve this

impossible problem. I give this option zero probability. If one

country least the euro then the eurozone would stop being a

monetary union. It would be a fixed exchange rate area. Then one

country after another would follow the exit path. The re-evaluation of

the financial risk of the Italian, Portuguese and Spanish debt would

lead to double digits and this would be the end of the eurozone.

Is that not blackmail? You are saying if you do not do what we are

saying been the eurozone would collapse. I think it is a form of

blackmail in this. The forces that want to continue with the austerity

half, and I mean all over Europe, use this argument that either we

have to comply with the austerity or leave the eurozone. But the

meaning of the European Union is more democracy, not the

blackmailing of people, but we have no choice. They have to follow the

same policy forever. I am confident the leaders of the European Union

will realise that the people of any country have the right to choose an

alternative policy. Indeed. Indeed. But the other 400 million people in

the eurozone have the right to say we are not going to give you any

more money unless you obey the rules. A German Interior Minister

says that anyone who wants to see hull must show a certain amount of

reasonableness. David Cameron has said the people of Greece have a

choice, to stick with the commitments or two vote to leave.

So everybody has a choice, including the eurozone members to

think you are doing the wrong thing. I think the situation is more

complicated. We do not have Greece on the one hand and all the other

Europeans on the other. We have different policies in all parts of

Europe and different parties, trade unions and so on which oppose these

policies. What we are saying is that we want to discuss with our

partners alternative policies about another architect of the eurozone.

We have a lot of voices, all over Europe, for example the leader of

an institute who said that it is not possible to consider the one

policy as the only option. That is the austerity policy. We have to

find a way out. This is also what the interior minister said himself.

Yes, OK. We have to open the discussion. You are talking in a

reasonable way about it seeing where we can go but another MP says

the abolition of the memorandum is a non negotiable and you are not

going to accept austerity. I have to explain this. We have to say

that austerity is not negotiable. Those are the by-laws which brought

the tensions which have destroyed the welfare state. They are going

to put more taxes on the poor. This is not negotiable, this has to stop

for some on the other hand, the Central Bank of Greece is also the

central bank of the other 16 eurozone members. We have to

discuss with the European central bank the other countries in the EU

and the eurozone have to find a solution about the dead. We think

the way the German debt was regulated and was put on growth in

1953 is a good basis to start discussions. Everybody understands

that Greece is hurtling. Everybody has sympathy for Greece. -- is

hurting. But you are talking about a guaranteed income, medical care,

social protection, the 80 reduction, - you do not have the money -- VAT

reduction. We realise how difficult the situation is. We have said that

first of all, we must stop with austerity. No more cuts. Then we

can have growth by having a moratorium on a tax paying for some

years, if we agree with our partners and see growth again, we

have to see, from below and going up, an increase in pensions and

salaries and so on the people who suffered very large cuts during the

last three years. Just to be clear, that means you will not pay any of

the debt that you owe from the start because you cannot do it

following the policies you have just set out? We say we have to

discuss a moratorium on paying the taxes for five years and then to

find a solution in paying those debts on the basis of a common

agreement, which will contain the level of interest paid and the debt

of a early payment. And also a possible haircut on some part of

the dead. This is a solution which would be beneficial to both sides.

If we cannot pay the debt as it is now, if the debt is a barrel

without a bottom, this is not good for both sides. But as you know the

lenders, and the German Foreign Minister, has said that if Greece

ends the process than I cannot see that the money can be paid out. So

you are not going to get the money? With this agreement with the German

leaders, we strongly believe that Europe and the eurozone is not only

them. But they have the money. They are the people with the money and

the Interior Minister has said we are not prepared to pour money into

a bottomless pit. That is how he sees Greece, as a bottomless pit.

We are a community of 17 countries. We say we have to find a solution

which is beneficial to all sides. We have seen that in France. What

Francois Hollande said during the electoral campaign and what he

continues to say now is something different from what we discussed

until this point. So we are confident that starting from Greece,

and in other countries, for example the Netherlands, which has

elections in a short time, it is not clear who the strongest party

will be. Indeed. We see a wind of change all over Europe and we are

confident we will find a solution that will help the majority of the

Greek people. Maybe you can explain this. In your quest for money you

are also talking about German World War II reparations. What is that

about? This is something that started from the initiatives of

many people and has to be discussed on a democratic and open a level.

What we are asking now is not a conflict with Germany, we are

talking about a reasonable solution to the problem, which is not only a

Greek problem but a European problem. You have made that

absolutely clear. But I am trying to figure out why, the government

of Angela Merkel is not responsible for what happened in 1942 in Greece

so why are you talking about what war to reparations? You think

Germany owes you something? No. We say that the way the German debt

was cut and renegotiated in the year 1953 is a good basis to

discuss for the present Greek and European debt. That is to combine

the repayment of interest with the growth of the economy. An economy

which is in a recession, like the recession we now face with minus

6.5%, in the year 2012, cannot repay its debt. This is clear. We

I know that you have said it is not just for Germany, but they

effectively are the paymasters. I had just been in Germany fairly

recently. The Greek problem is this, some of your richest people do not

pay taxes, you do not work hard enough as a nation, you have a very

bloated state, and you paid public sector wage increases of 50% which

you could not afford. You have got to cut this. The actual problem is

the rich people do not pay taxes. We are the only party who are

saying this. We are the only party who has nothing to do with the

scandals that devastated our economy and our public sector,

because we strongly believe there were other large corporations who

paid a lot of money to politicians to take some jobs. We say that

another problem is we have to change the public sector,

especially the Ministry of Economics, in order to be able to

collect taxes, because it is not only a matter of tax coefficients,

it is a matter of how effective these agencies are, and we see that

according to the' economic data, Greece collects at least 5% less

taxes as a percentage of the GDP, compared to the European average.

The poor people who should -- should not be the ones who pay

taxes. So you broadly agree with a French minister who say the answer

to the Greek problem is who -- is to stop living scandalously beyond

its means and to pay people to do nothing. This is not a problem of

the Greek people. This is a wrong way to put the problem, to put the

question. It is only a specific social strata of the society which

did this, and the financial elites, which were very closely

interconnected with the political elite. They are the PASOK Party and

the New Democracy Party, which ruled the country for decades, and

created this corrupt environment, they have to go. We are here to

make them go. I notice that Syriza's leader said that it told

the European Union that if you sink us, we would take you down with us.

That is pretty much what you think as well, isn't it? I did not

understand the whole of the question. Alexis Tsipras, he said

to the European Union, talking about the eurozone, if you sink us,

we will take you down with us. That is blackmail. What he said is what

I also said, that it is impossible according to our analysis, to have

a country thrown out of the eurozone, and the eurozone continue

to exist, because as I told you, and as many analysts say, this will

mean a spontaneous re-evaluation of financial rates, on the side of the

financial markets, and this will lead to a catastrophe, and that is

to interest rate of double digits, Italian and Spanish debt, first of

all, which cannot be implemented by any authority. You did explain that.

But I'm trying to get to the point. Maybe that is what Alexis Tsipras

said as well. He was not trying to blackmail anybody. But that is

blackmail. You are describing it as a fact, and you are saying that if

you throw us out, the eurozone will unravel. You may be right, but you

are saying to everybody in the eurozone, into what we tell you.

are saying to open the discussion because it is a crisis which

threatens all of us. Not only Greece, not only Ireland or

Portugal, who are under a bail out programme, but the whole of the

eurozone. And we have to discuss a new role for the ECB, a new role

for the surplus and deficit countries, about all the problems

that have prevented make this eurozone they re- vulnerable to

speculation. -- very vulnerable. The worry that your party and

completely Alexis Tsipras, is out of his step in this? Your

government has ever been in power anywhere. -- your party. Our party

has never governed yet, but we have very well educated candidates who

can play a very important role in the new government. We are going to

depend on the people, we are going to depend on experts, and we are

going to depend on ideas that come from everywhere, and we will open a

discussion on a European level, and maybe beyond that, and we are

confident that we will have a very effective programme which would

change the course of the country, which will stop corruption, and

which will boost growth again. take it you would not get on a

plane if the pilot said, I have never flown before, and you are

asking the Greek people to get on board with Alexis Tsipras, and he

has never been in government before. The people of Greece has realised

that we need a change, that the former pilot was leading deplane to

hit a mountain or something like that, or to drown in the sea, and

that has to change. That has to change. Things are more complicated.

We are not speaking about a pilot but a whole movement, which has the

experts and has the experience to change things. Alexis Tsipras also

said it is a war between people and capitalism, and Greece is on the

front line of that war. Is that how you see it? It is one way to

describe things. In all countries, we see that these austerity

policies, they benefit specific elites. The capitalist elite. On

the other hand, on the other side, and we see the 99% of the

population, the majority, they have interests which conflict with the

interests of the elite. It is another short way to describe the

situation, that all over the developed world, that is what we

are living in right now. Some people listening to this will think

it sounds like student politics, it is not serious. I told you, this

does not describe our programme. Our programme is very specific. It

speaks about social justice, a system that according to our

constitution, will put the burden on the ones that have to pay,

because they have evaded taxes for a decade, the ones who do not think

about the right of the people all the decisions of the people, but

run to move their money to speculation or outside the country,

thinking only about the Prophet, and the interest of the majority of

the people, which must at least decide what they want. Are you

confident that you will be the biggest party after the new

elections? Yes. We discuss with the people every day, we make speeches,

we here the people, we let people tell us what they think, and we are

confident that what has started a one year ago, on the squares of

Greece, and which expressed itself on 6th May, in the previous

elections, will go forward and we will be the strongest party. Do you

expect this summer a lot of tourists will not come to Greece

because they are worried about instability and thousands of

tourists will say they are not going there. We expect exactly the

opposite. We are confident that we will be able to stabilise the

situation within a few months, to show to the world that now a New