Ghazi Hamad - Hamas Deputy Foreign Minister HARDtalk


Ghazi Hamad  - Hamas Deputy Foreign Minister

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American exports. For Now on BBC The election of a Muslim

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Brotherhood candidate as President of Egypt will have an impact, not

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only on Egypt, but elsewhere in the Middle East. Nowhere more so than

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in Gaza. There, Hamas, the Palestinian batch of the Muslim

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Brotherhood has ruled for five years. At loggerheads with the

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Palestinian authority on the West Bank and viewed by Israel as a

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terrorist organisation. Will the new dynamics of power in Egypt

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better serve the cause of peace and reconciliation in the Middle East

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or mealy exam -- exacerbate tensions? By guest today is the

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deputy Foreign Minister for Hamas in Gaza. Ghazi Hamad, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Is the election of Mohammed Morsi

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as president of Egypt good for Hamas? I think it is good for all

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Palestinians. It will be against the occupation, it will be against

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Israel. It is a win for all Palestinians. Can you spell out why

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you think Mohammed Morsi is good for you, he has said he will keep

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the peace with Israel, a state that Hamas does not recognise. In the

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time of Hosni Mubarak's regime we suffered a lot. There were some

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restrictions on Gaza. They did not co-operate with the people in Gaza

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in general. Now we see that there is a democratic regime. There is a

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new face, a new policy. I think the Egyptian people will enjoy this

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democracy. We will find more support for the Palestinian

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question, more support for our struggle. Israel will be more

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isolated. They lose their biggest friend in the Middle East. It will

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help the Palestinians to achieve their goals. On what grounds do you

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say that Israel has lost its ally in the Middle East? Mohammed Morsi

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has said he is going to respect the treaty with Israel. Many observers,

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for example Naguib Sawiris, he says even if Mohammed Morsi wanted to

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tear up the treaty, the military would never allow him to do that in

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Egypt. I think in the first phase he will say he will accept all the

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agreements and the treaties. But I think, the ideology and the thought

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of the Muslim Brotherhood, the new atmosphere in Egypt, I expect a

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bigger change inside Egypt. The economic aspects, social aspects,

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it will change the political game. If the Muslim Brotherhood succeed

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to push Egypt forward in their political and economic aspect I

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think they will discuss the treaty at Camp David. There will be more

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support for the Palestinian people. In the last 30 years the foreign

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policy of Egypt was dead. There was no movement. Other countries like

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Qatar, they are more active in foreign policy. They play a more

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important role in the Middle East. I expect Egypt will play a more

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active role to gather Arabs around the Palestinian question. More

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sympathy and I think Israel will not find that the gates of Egypt

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will be open for them as they have been in the past. I can only tell

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you what Mohammed Morsi himself has said in public and how the Israelis

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have responded. Perhaps the Israeli press has had a more extreme view

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of his election, but when you look at what Binyamin Netahyahu has said,

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he says Israel appreciates the democratic process in Egypt and

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respects its outcome. Mohammed Morsi has said, I will keep the

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peace with Israel and work hard to stop the aggression against the

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Palestinians. When you look at the statements, it does not support

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what you're saying. It would suggest that Mohammed Morsi sees

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Israel as a partner he has to work with. I think he will say such

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statements. From the first moment he cannot change the whole

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political game. Something is not logical. Israel used the umbrella

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of Hosni Mubarak's regime for the crimes of Israel. In the 30 years

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of Hosni Mubarak, Israel attacked Lebanon. They attacked Gaza. They

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made many changes inside Jerusalem. Hosni Mubarak kept silent. They

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targeted the Palestinians in Tunisia. Now I think a new

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political regime in Egypt, it will reflect the will of the Egyptian

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people. They will not keep silent. From the first moment of the

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revolution there was a big demonstration in Cairo, they wanted

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to expel the Israeli ambassador from Egypt. I expect there will be

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a change in a political game. They will not be someone who keep silent.

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I must balance with what you have said, of course the Israeli

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position is consistently that they defend their own people and that

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they are just responding to attacks against themselves. I want to make

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that clear. You are also, as is Ismail Haniyeh... This is not true.

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Israel has committed crimes against the Palestinians everywhere. That

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is a debate we have had in the past. Israel has been criticised and so

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on. Just looking at what Gaza wants from the leadership in Egypt that

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now has a President from the Muslim Brotherhood, Ismail Haniyeh says he

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is looking to get the Israelis to lift the blockade. Do you expect

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him to try and get that lifted? Will he succeed? First of all, we

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know that Mohammed Morsi will be more and more involved with

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international relations. He will be working to give the fruits of the

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revolution. Especially in the economy aspect in order to give

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more prosperity and fight against corruption and barbarity. This is

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OK for us. We understand this. This does not mean that he will not give

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attention for his neighbour, Palestine and Gaza Strip. We have

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suffered from blockade and siege and collective sanctions against

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Palestinians. I think they can help with fuel, gas, allow to export and

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import. Egypt can do more and more to support the Palestinian people

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against the occupation. Just yesterday Binyamin Netahyahu said

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he will build more settlements... I think that Mohammed Morsi and the

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new political regime in Egypt will not accept this. You have made that

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point. Sticking to the border crossing at Rafah, why would anyone

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want that eased? The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, who

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are very powerful in Egypt, do not want to be a part of that.

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Particularly when you have arms being smuggled to Libya through the

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Rafah crossing. I think Gaza is living in a miserable situation. We

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need to find some ways in order to bring the food, medicine and

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building materials for our people. We have suffered for 6-7 years from

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the blockade. I expect the Egyptians cannot change it. I

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cannot say it will happen in the first moment of the first months.

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As I said, the Palestinians expect a lot from our brothers in order to

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help us and give more support to the Palestinian people. We do not

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need to smuggle. It should be open 24 hours. We should be open for

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commercial exchange with the Arab world. This does not mean that Gaza

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will be part of Egypt. Frankly, Gaza is part of Palestine. It is

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our homeland. It will not be part of Egypt. This should be clear.

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Some people think Gaza is open to Egypt, Gaza will turn its fate to

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Egypt... This is not true. Hamas will not establish an entirety in

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Gaza. We are interested to succeed in reconciliation and go back to

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one political regime. You mentioned a reconciliation and wanting one

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political regime, the Lebanese ambassador said Mohammed Morsi

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could use his good contacts with Hamas to affect a reconciliation

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between Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Is he right? I think the new

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Egyptian regime will play a more active role with Hamas. It's in its

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interest. Gaza is important for the security of Egypt. They will be

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very interested in order to bring Hamas together and bring national

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unity. Maybe this will take more time, but as Palestinians we need

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to help the Egyptians also. We have to ease this for the Egyptians. We

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as the Palestinians, I think we have to help them also... You

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should help them. Under the Doha Accord... You have suspended voter

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registration in Gaza. People say you are not serious about

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We look to the reconciliation process as one package. From the

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first moment, they came to Gaza and the Prime Minister, they opened all

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of the gates for them. And really, we should show our cooperation with

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them. But what happened in the West Bank, when they started, they were

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arresting people in the West Bank and they abused their human rights.

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And they would arrest people every day. And I think that it should be

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stopped. Because it will harm and damage the reconciliation process.

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But Fatah said the opposite. They said that your actions of

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suspending voter registration in Gaza was unjustifiable and it was

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going to impede the reconciliation, the first step towards

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reconciliation between the two of you. Are you going to reverse that

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decision about voter registration? We have no problem. We agreed on

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many points. And sometimes we have a lot of concessions, and we want

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to form a government of professional and independent people.

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But I think that we need to build a bridge between amass and Qatar.

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Here in Gaza, I think that the government and Hamas also, it is

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really interested to support the reconciliation process. We have no

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problem. We have no problem, in order to support the reconciliation

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process. We have signed many agreements. Now, if you come to

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Gaza, you will not see that members are humiliated or arrested because

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of their political background. This is not accepted by us. I have

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spoken to some figures. Their procedures and actions against

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those in the West Bank. So you are saying that Fatah has somehow

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manipulated conditions to suit themselves and that it is targeting

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Hamas supporters on the West Bank and that is why you have suspended

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cooperation on the voter registration? So, what will it take

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for you to go back so that people can say the Palestinian actions are

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at last reconciling? We want to see something, but it is not explicit.

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We want to see no violation, no arresting in the West Bank, no

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punishment of people there. This is what we need. This is in order to

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stop all of the procedures and actions against the members of

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Hamas on the West Bank which is daily behaviour against them. This

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is unbelievable. We have some saying that there are 10, 5, 17, 18

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people arrested in the West Bank. Let me ask you this. How united is

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Hamas itself? Hamas is united. it united? Because we are now

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hearing that there is a kind of moderate party and there is a more

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hardline faction. The Prime Minister, he is more hardline than

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the political leader of Hamas, who has been in exile in Damascus for

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many years now. It is a joke. It is a big organisation. There are no

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differences? Hamas is a big organisation. You'll find that some

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people are hard, some people are moderate, some are on the soft line.

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Hamas is a big organisation and not a small group. We will find

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differences. But even at the leadership - can I just ask you

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this? Even differences at the top of the leadership? I do not see

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that there is a split inside Hamas. Can I give you an example? The

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Prime Minister was quoted in the Jerusalem Post on 13th February,

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saying that the gun is the only solution to the Zionist regime and

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this contrast with Khaled Mashal saying that Hamas should focus on

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popular resistance which represents the power of the people. They had

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two very different messages from two leaders, wouldn't you say?

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can explain this. You will find that Hamas in general, when they

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decide to take a decision, there is a collective leadership. I cannot

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say that his decision is theirs only. We have a Sharia Council. And

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we have some institutions inside Hamas. So I think that we have the

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ability to take a decision. We have a collective leadership that give

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us a guarantee that everything is OK. There are differences. He said

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that there are differences at the top of the Hamas leadership, surely

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you accept that. There are some differences, that is right. I

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cannot deny that. Do you think that President Morsi in Egypt will

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strengthen the hand of the moderates, then, because he will be

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urging them to be more reconciliatory, isn't that one

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impact? I think you should not play this game. Because I believe that,

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but some are some well-known leaders. Let them deal with Egypt,

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Qatar, and Syria, and different countries. There was no

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differentiation between a soft line and hardline. And Mr Mursi will

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deal with these softline and the hardline. This is something that is

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not realistic. I think that Hamas will deal with Egypt and other

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countries with one organisation, one language. There are some

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differences inside the organisation. But after that, we had one decision.

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You mentioned Syria there. Of course, Syria has been a huge

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backlog of Hamas. There were headquarters in Damascus, they

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recently moved to Doha. Other Hamas leaders have said that they come

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out and support the Arab Spring, in Revolution, in Cairo earlier this

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year. The Syrian revolution is an Arab Revolution, leaders have been

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quoted as saying. It will have a big impact on you, because you will

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lose a source of money, arms, and with Syria comes Iran, its biggest

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ally, who will also lose the backing of Iran. Isn't that going

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to be a problem for you? Maybe the situation is very complicated. As

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Hamas, we are not in the pocket of any political regime. But you need

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their money and their support. You will fill the gap from Syria?

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get money from different cultures, from Syria and Iran. From South

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Asia, from many countries. From political parties. I think this

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does not mean that we have political money. We have our own

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decision. We had our own calculations. So, when we decide d

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that the situation in Egypt is against our principles and against

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our values, we left Damascus. In 20 years, in that time, the Syrian

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regime, they gave full facilities for us and supported us everywhere

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and gave us all kinds of support, but we did not want this kind of

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confrontation within the regime and we told him that we will leave.

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you staying in Doha? Are you going to stay in Doha or will you go in

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somewhere else? There is speculation that you may relocate

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to Jordan. We're interested in establishing a relationship with

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different countries. And Jordan invited Mr Mashal and he met the

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king. And I think that Jordan is an important country. Maybe they made

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a mistake in the past, when they expelled Hamas. And maybe some

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people, they destroyed the image of our organisation. And we are not

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interested in dealing or interfering in the issue of another

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country. Or any country. So, I suspect that the relationship with

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Jordan will be better in the future. I must ask you finally and briefly,

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a completely different point, but now we have this investigation by

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Al-Jazeera, saying that Yasser Arafat, who died eight years ago,

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the Palestinian leader, it may have been poised and because traces of

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poison were found on his close and the Palestinian Authority say that

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there should be an investigation. Do you think that his body should

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be seen? Should there be an investigation? I think that Al-

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Jazeera made a very great and special discovery in order to

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clarify that. So you want an investigation? Yes, we want the

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investigation to go on and for it to be done by those people.. And we

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