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American exports. For Now on BBC The election of a Muslim | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
Brotherhood candidate as President of Egypt will have an impact, not | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
only on Egypt, but elsewhere in the Middle East. Nowhere more so than | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
in Gaza. There, Hamas, the Palestinian batch of the Muslim | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
Brotherhood has ruled for five years. At loggerheads with the | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
Palestinian authority on the West Bank and viewed by Israel as a | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
terrorist organisation. Will the new dynamics of power in Egypt | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
better serve the cause of peace and reconciliation in the Middle East | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
or mealy exam -- exacerbate tensions? By guest today is the | :00:50. | :01:00. | |
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deputy Foreign Minister for Hamas in Gaza. Ghazi Hamad, welcome to | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
HARDtalk. Is the election of Mohammed Morsi | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
as president of Egypt good for Hamas? I think it is good for all | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
Palestinians. It will be against the occupation, it will be against | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
Israel. It is a win for all Palestinians. Can you spell out why | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
you think Mohammed Morsi is good for you, he has said he will keep | :01:48. | :01:57. | |
the peace with Israel, a state that Hamas does not recognise. In the | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
time of Hosni Mubarak's regime we suffered a lot. There were some | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
:02:15. | :02:17. | ||
restrictions on Gaza. They did not co-operate with the people in Gaza | :02:17. | :02:25. | |
in general. Now we see that there is a democratic regime. There is a | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
new face, a new policy. I think the Egyptian people will enjoy this | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
democracy. We will find more support for the Palestinian | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
question, more support for our struggle. Israel will be more | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
isolated. They lose their biggest friend in the Middle East. It will | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
help the Palestinians to achieve their goals. On what grounds do you | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
say that Israel has lost its ally in the Middle East? Mohammed Morsi | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
has said he is going to respect the treaty with Israel. Many observers, | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
for example Naguib Sawiris, he says even if Mohammed Morsi wanted to | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
tear up the treaty, the military would never allow him to do that in | :03:14. | :03:24. | |
Egypt. I think in the first phase he will say he will accept all the | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
agreements and the treaties. But I think, the ideology and the thought | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
of the Muslim Brotherhood, the new atmosphere in Egypt, I expect a | :03:33. | :03:43. | |
:03:43. | :03:46. | ||
bigger change inside Egypt. The economic aspects, social aspects, | :03:46. | :03:56. | |
:03:56. | :03:59. | ||
it will change the political game. If the Muslim Brotherhood succeed | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
to push Egypt forward in their political and economic aspect I | :04:03. | :04:11. | |
think they will discuss the treaty at Camp David. There will be more | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
support for the Palestinian people. In the last 30 years the foreign | :04:16. | :04:26. | |
policy of Egypt was dead. There was no movement. Other countries like | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
Qatar, they are more active in foreign policy. They play a more | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
important role in the Middle East. I expect Egypt will play a more | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
active role to gather Arabs around the Palestinian question. More | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
sympathy and I think Israel will not find that the gates of Egypt | :04:47. | :04:57. | |
:04:57. | :04:57. | ||
will be open for them as they have been in the past. I can only tell | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
you what Mohammed Morsi himself has said in public and how the Israelis | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
have responded. Perhaps the Israeli press has had a more extreme view | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
of his election, but when you look at what Binyamin Netahyahu has said, | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
he says Israel appreciates the democratic process in Egypt and | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
respects its outcome. Mohammed Morsi has said, I will keep the | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
peace with Israel and work hard to stop the aggression against the | :05:24. | :05:32. | |
Palestinians. When you look at the statements, it does not support | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
what you're saying. It would suggest that Mohammed Morsi sees | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
Israel as a partner he has to work with. I think he will say such | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
statements. From the first moment he cannot change the whole | :05:51. | :06:01. | |
:06:01. | :06:01. | ||
political game. Something is not logical. Israel used the umbrella | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
of Hosni Mubarak's regime for the crimes of Israel. In the 30 years | :06:08. | :06:15. | |
of Hosni Mubarak, Israel attacked Lebanon. They attacked Gaza. They | :06:15. | :06:24. | |
made many changes inside Jerusalem. Hosni Mubarak kept silent. They | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
targeted the Palestinians in Tunisia. Now I think a new | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
political regime in Egypt, it will reflect the will of the Egyptian | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
people. They will not keep silent. From the first moment of the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
revolution there was a big demonstration in Cairo, they wanted | :06:40. | :06:49. | |
to expel the Israeli ambassador from Egypt. I expect there will be | :06:49. | :06:59. | |
:06:59. | :07:04. | ||
a change in a political game. They will not be someone who keep silent. | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
I must balance with what you have said, of course the Israeli | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
position is consistently that they defend their own people and that | :07:11. | :07:20. | |
they are just responding to attacks against themselves. I want to make | :07:21. | :07:30. | |
:07:31. | :07:34. | ||
that clear. You are also, as is Ismail Haniyeh... This is not true. | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
Israel has committed crimes against the Palestinians everywhere. That | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
is a debate we have had in the past. Israel has been criticised and so | :07:46. | :07:56. | |
:07:56. | :07:59. | ||
on. Just looking at what Gaza wants from the leadership in Egypt that | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
now has a President from the Muslim Brotherhood, Ismail Haniyeh says he | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
:08:12. | :08:20. | ||
is looking to get the Israelis to lift the blockade. Do you expect | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
him to try and get that lifted? Will he succeed? First of all, we | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
know that Mohammed Morsi will be more and more involved with | :08:31. | :08:40. | |
international relations. He will be working to give the fruits of the | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
revolution. Especially in the economy aspect in order to give | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
more prosperity and fight against corruption and barbarity. This is | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
OK for us. We understand this. This does not mean that he will not give | :08:55. | :09:04. | |
attention for his neighbour, Palestine and Gaza Strip. We have | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
suffered from blockade and siege and collective sanctions against | :09:06. | :09:16. | |
:09:16. | :09:16. | ||
Palestinians. I think they can help with fuel, gas, allow to export and | :09:16. | :09:26. | |
:09:26. | :09:33. | ||
import. Egypt can do more and more to support the Palestinian people | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
against the occupation. Just yesterday Binyamin Netahyahu said | :09:41. | :09:50. | |
:09:51. | :09:52. | ||
he will build more settlements... I think that Mohammed Morsi and the | :09:52. | :10:02. | |
new political regime in Egypt will not accept this. You have made that | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
point. Sticking to the border crossing at Rafah, why would anyone | :10:07. | :10:15. | |
want that eased? The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, who | :10:15. | :10:25. | |
:10:25. | :10:25. | ||
are very powerful in Egypt, do not want to be a part of that. | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
Particularly when you have arms being smuggled to Libya through the | :10:28. | :10:38. | |
:10:38. | :10:43. | ||
Rafah crossing. I think Gaza is living in a miserable situation. We | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
need to find some ways in order to bring the food, medicine and | :10:47. | :10:55. | |
building materials for our people. We have suffered for 6-7 years from | :10:55. | :11:05. | |
the blockade. I expect the Egyptians cannot change it. I | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
cannot say it will happen in the first moment of the first months. | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
As I said, the Palestinians expect a lot from our brothers in order to | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
help us and give more support to the Palestinian people. We do not | :11:22. | :11:31. | |
need to smuggle. It should be open 24 hours. We should be open for | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
commercial exchange with the Arab world. This does not mean that Gaza | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
will be part of Egypt. Frankly, Gaza is part of Palestine. It is | :11:40. | :11:48. | |
our homeland. It will not be part of Egypt. This should be clear. | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
Some people think Gaza is open to Egypt, Gaza will turn its fate to | :11:52. | :12:02. | |
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Egypt... This is not true. Hamas will not establish an entirety in | :12:03. | :12:13. | |
Gaza. We are interested to succeed in reconciliation and go back to | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
one political regime. You mentioned a reconciliation and wanting one | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
political regime, the Lebanese ambassador said Mohammed Morsi | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
could use his good contacts with Hamas to affect a reconciliation | :12:21. | :12:31. | |
:12:31. | :12:41. | ||
between Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Is he right? I think the new | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
Egyptian regime will play a more active role with Hamas. It's in its | :12:48. | :12:58. | |
:12:58. | :12:58. | ||
interest. Gaza is important for the security of Egypt. They will be | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
very interested in order to bring Hamas together and bring national | :13:01. | :13:11. | |
:13:11. | :13:11. | ||
unity. Maybe this will take more time, but as Palestinians we need | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
to help the Egyptians also. We have to ease this for the Egyptians. We | :13:16. | :13:26. | |
:13:26. | :13:30. | ||
as the Palestinians, I think we have to help them also... You | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
:13:40. | :13:46. | ||
should help them. Under the Doha Accord... You have suspended voter | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
registration in Gaza. People say you are not serious about | :13:53. | :14:02. | |
We look to the reconciliation process as one package. From the | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
first moment, they came to Gaza and the Prime Minister, they opened all | :14:05. | :14:15. | |
:14:15. | :14:19. | ||
of the gates for them. And really, we should show our cooperation with | :14:19. | :14:28. | |
them. But what happened in the West Bank, when they started, they were | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
arresting people in the West Bank and they abused their human rights. | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
And they would arrest people every day. And I think that it should be | :14:40. | :14:49. | |
stopped. Because it will harm and damage the reconciliation process. | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
But Fatah said the opposite. They said that your actions of | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
suspending voter registration in Gaza was unjustifiable and it was | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
going to impede the reconciliation, the first step towards | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
reconciliation between the two of you. Are you going to reverse that | :15:05. | :15:13. | |
decision about voter registration? We have no problem. We agreed on | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
many points. And sometimes we have a lot of concessions, and we want | :15:18. | :15:28. | |
:15:28. | :15:30. | ||
to form a government of professional and independent people. | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
But I think that we need to build a bridge between amass and Qatar. | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
Here in Gaza, I think that the government and Hamas also, it is | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
really interested to support the reconciliation process. We have no | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
problem. We have no problem, in order to support the reconciliation | :15:49. | :15:57. | |
process. We have signed many agreements. Now, if you come to | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
Gaza, you will not see that members are humiliated or arrested because | :16:00. | :16:09. | |
of their political background. This is not accepted by us. I have | :16:09. | :16:19. | |
:16:19. | :16:20. | ||
spoken to some figures. Their procedures and actions against | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
those in the West Bank. So you are saying that Fatah has somehow | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
manipulated conditions to suit themselves and that it is targeting | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
Hamas supporters on the West Bank and that is why you have suspended | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
cooperation on the voter registration? So, what will it take | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
for you to go back so that people can say the Palestinian actions are | :16:39. | :16:47. | |
at last reconciling? We want to see something, but it is not explicit. | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
We want to see no violation, no arresting in the West Bank, no | :16:50. | :16:58. | |
punishment of people there. This is what we need. This is in order to | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
stop all of the procedures and actions against the members of | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
Hamas on the West Bank which is daily behaviour against them. This | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
is unbelievable. We have some saying that there are 10, 5, 17, 18 | :17:11. | :17:20. | |
people arrested in the West Bank. Let me ask you this. How united is | :17:20. | :17:30. | |
:17:30. | :17:30. | ||
Hamas itself? Hamas is united. it united? Because we are now | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
hearing that there is a kind of moderate party and there is a more | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
hardline faction. The Prime Minister, he is more hardline than | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
the political leader of Hamas, who has been in exile in Damascus for | :17:39. | :17:49. | |
:17:49. | :17:51. | ||
many years now. It is a joke. It is a big organisation. There are no | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
differences? Hamas is a big organisation. You'll find that some | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
people are hard, some people are moderate, some are on the soft line. | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
Hamas is a big organisation and not a small group. We will find | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
differences. But even at the leadership - can I just ask you | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
this? Even differences at the top of the leadership? I do not see | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
that there is a split inside Hamas. Can I give you an example? The | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
Prime Minister was quoted in the Jerusalem Post on 13th February, | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
saying that the gun is the only solution to the Zionist regime and | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
this contrast with Khaled Mashal saying that Hamas should focus on | :18:26. | :18:36. | |
:18:36. | :18:36. | ||
popular resistance which represents the power of the people. They had | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
two very different messages from two leaders, wouldn't you say? | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
can explain this. You will find that Hamas in general, when they | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
decide to take a decision, there is a collective leadership. I cannot | :18:51. | :19:00. | |
say that his decision is theirs only. We have a Sharia Council. And | :19:00. | :19:09. | |
we have some institutions inside Hamas. So I think that we have the | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
ability to take a decision. We have a collective leadership that give | :19:12. | :19:21. | |
us a guarantee that everything is OK. There are differences. He said | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
that there are differences at the top of the Hamas leadership, surely | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
you accept that. There are some differences, that is right. I | :19:29. | :19:38. | |
cannot deny that. Do you think that President Morsi in Egypt will | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
strengthen the hand of the moderates, then, because he will be | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
urging them to be more reconciliatory, isn't that one | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
impact? I think you should not play this game. Because I believe that, | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
but some are some well-known leaders. Let them deal with Egypt, | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
Qatar, and Syria, and different countries. There was no | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
differentiation between a soft line and hardline. And Mr Mursi will | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
deal with these softline and the hardline. This is something that is | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
not realistic. I think that Hamas will deal with Egypt and other | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
countries with one organisation, one language. There are some | :20:18. | :20:28. | |
:20:28. | :20:28. | ||
differences inside the organisation. But after that, we had one decision. | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
You mentioned Syria there. Of course, Syria has been a huge | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
backlog of Hamas. There were headquarters in Damascus, they | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
recently moved to Doha. Other Hamas leaders have said that they come | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
out and support the Arab Spring, in Revolution, in Cairo earlier this | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
year. The Syrian revolution is an Arab Revolution, leaders have been | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
quoted as saying. It will have a big impact on you, because you will | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
lose a source of money, arms, and with Syria comes Iran, its biggest | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
ally, who will also lose the backing of Iran. Isn't that going | :21:07. | :21:16. | |
to be a problem for you? Maybe the situation is very complicated. As | :21:16. | :21:25. | |
Hamas, we are not in the pocket of any political regime. But you need | :21:25. | :21:33. | |
their money and their support. You will fill the gap from Syria? | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
get money from different cultures, from Syria and Iran. From South | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
Asia, from many countries. From political parties. I think this | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
does not mean that we have political money. We have our own | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
decision. We had our own calculations. So, when we decide d | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
that the situation in Egypt is against our principles and against | :21:55. | :22:03. | |
our values, we left Damascus. In 20 years, in that time, the Syrian | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
regime, they gave full facilities for us and supported us everywhere | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
and gave us all kinds of support, but we did not want this kind of | :22:09. | :22:19. | |
confrontation within the regime and we told him that we will leave. | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
you staying in Doha? Are you going to stay in Doha or will you go in | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
somewhere else? There is speculation that you may relocate | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
to Jordan. We're interested in establishing a relationship with | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
different countries. And Jordan invited Mr Mashal and he met the | :22:37. | :22:47. | |
:22:47. | :22:47. | ||
king. And I think that Jordan is an important country. Maybe they made | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
a mistake in the past, when they expelled Hamas. And maybe some | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
people, they destroyed the image of our organisation. And we are not | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
interested in dealing or interfering in the issue of another | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
country. Or any country. So, I suspect that the relationship with | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
Jordan will be better in the future. I must ask you finally and briefly, | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
a completely different point, but now we have this investigation by | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
Al-Jazeera, saying that Yasser Arafat, who died eight years ago, | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
the Palestinian leader, it may have been poised and because traces of | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
poison were found on his close and the Palestinian Authority say that | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
there should be an investigation. Do you think that his body should | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
be seen? Should there be an investigation? I think that Al- | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
Jazeera made a very great and special discovery in order to | :23:42. | :23:52. | |
:23:52. | :24:04. | ||
clarify that. So you want an investigation? Yes, we want the | :24:04. | :24:14. | |
:24:14. | :24:19. | ||
investigation to go on and for it to be done by those people.. And we | :24:19. | :24:24. |