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That's the latest BBC News. Now it's time for HARDtalk. | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
He is the wonder of's President Paul Kagame in danger of losing the | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
international community's goodwill for a country still haunted by the | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
ghost of genocide? -- yes Rwanda's. He is accused of being unrealistic | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
about prosp about prospthe economic transformation and, most damagingly, | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
a recent United Nations will -- report claims the government is | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
breaking UN sanctions by backing rebels in the neighbouring | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
Democratic Republic of Congo. My guests today on hard-fought is | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
President Paul Kagame of Rwanda. Can he reclaim his reputation as | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
the bold and visionary leader or is he destined to go down as another | :00:51. | :01:01. | |
:01:01. | :01:14. | ||
African strongman who failed to President Paul Kagame, welcome to | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you. You have been credited with trying to unite a | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
divided country, make it more prosperous after the genocide of | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
1994. But truly you are in danger of squandering the international | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
community's goodwill, aren't you? No. It does not make sense. There | :01:34. | :01:42. | |
is nothing to that suggests underground that there is any | :01:42. | :01:50. | |
danger as to what Rwanda looks like all the present -- present | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
government looks like. The facts speak for themselves. Are you aware | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
that you are a deeply polarising person? That your admirers think | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
very highly of you and yet your critics are increasingly becoming | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
more and more sceptical? You divide opinion. I start with where things | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
must start first, that is in Rwanda. What the people think about what we | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
are doing in their lives, how we are building the country. This is | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
the starting point. For the critics, they have been there from the start. | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
We do not acknowledge the progress that is being made in the country. | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
-- they do not. For them, the ask to | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
ask 10 or 15 years ago. But for the real people who live real life on | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
the ground, the millions of Rwanda has, the Sea Life getting better | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
everywhere. But why do you think that you excite that kind of | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
passion? -- they see life. That makes somebody like Tony Blair | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
hailed you as a bold and visionary leader and says that you are a good | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
friend and yet there are those who are... Who give a completely | :03:08. | :03:16. | |
different point of view? Tony Blair, many other friends that have helped | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
the country to be where it is today. They are genuine people who think - | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
- think through issues and question different things and come up with a | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
good conclusion. Tony Blair has been advising you on how to become | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
less a dependent, for example? That's right. It is polarising in | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
the sense that there are people who have been connected with Rwanda's | :03:39. | :03:47. | |
problems for the beginning, in history for many years. These | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
problems related to genocide and many others and they cannot | :03:51. | :03:59. | |
inherently Rwanda. People have been part of the problem and they have | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
always seemed Rwanda with different eyes. What do you mean people from | :04:02. | :04:10. | |
the outside? Former colonial powers? When I say from outside, I | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
mean from beyond even the colonial times. They have not allowed Rwanda | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
and or Africans to deal with their own problems. That is a debate | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
which is certainly worth having and we have had it in various guises. | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
But I want to put you not prisons from outside but criticisms from | :04:31. | :04:41. | |
:04:41. | :04:41. | ||
inside Rwanda. -- not criticisms from outside. People who tried to | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
stop those people read perpetrating violence. People who know you well | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
and say Paul Kagame is autocratic. Can I give you some names? You can | :04:52. | :05:00. | |
give names but... Can I just say what it is that I am talking about? | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
Even if it is 20 names, I am talking about millions of people in | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
Rwanda. If you want to believe what 10 or 15 people are talking about, | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
and you don't believe what millions of people in Rwanda are saying, | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
that is where the problem is. Look at the crisis all over the world. | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Whichever country we talk about. Developed, developing and otherwise. | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
They have crisis and scandals going on with leaders, with everybody. If | :05:28. | :05:37. | |
you are going to take a country as it is and say, "this country, | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
because of the leader, this is how we must look at the Country", then | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
you will get things wrong. I still put it to you and as I said nobody | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
doubts that you have brought great economic success to Rwanda. And if | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
you look at various indicators, you have tackled education, malaria, | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
that kind of thing. But politically they are strong criticisms about | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
you. In the 57 page Rwanda briefing from 20th August 10, you are | :06:07. | :06:14. | |
described as a hardline, one party, secretive police state. -- 20th | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
August 10. And that people have been held hostage deal repressive | :06:18. | :06:27. | |
rule. Who said that? The 4G -- the former chief of staff, a number of | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
people, the former prosecutor- general, a former ambassador to | :06:32. | :06:41. | |
Washington from Rwanda. These are all people, your former allies. | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
take you back to this problem. In this country, where we are sitting, | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
you read the newspapers every day and they talk about different | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
things about business people, different things. You would not | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
turn around and say this country is in Innis because of these | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
individuals. But what do you say to these individuals? I am saying this | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
to you. There is not a single country in this world, is what RIM | :07:11. | :07:18. | |
pudding to you, or a single leader who is in a public office that has | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
not come under attack or criticism. -- what I am putting to you. That | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
is a valid point. But the way you chose to say, I believe this one. | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
was putting it to you and want your response. I have heard this | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
hundreds of times. The focus is very much on Rwanda. For us, we are | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
comfortable with what we are doing and what we have in terms of | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
progress. These are just a few people who are critical of your | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
leadership? The facts are there for you deceive. It depends on what you | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
want to believe. You either believe what certain people say and you | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
don't want to see their own lack of accountability and issues relating | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
to their own his conduct and you don't want... I was not portraying | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
him as a model democrat at all. that is what you... I was not doing | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
that. When you raise it like that, that is what somebody will think. | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
was not suggesting that he is a model democrat but he has been shot | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
at in Johannesburg and has renewed his allegation... Why don't you | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
want the case... There is a trial to go -- going on. Do you want me | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
to talk about the case? He is renewing the allegation that you | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
were involved in that shooting. What do I expecting to say? I am | :08:39. | :08:48. | |
just asking for your response. What made them turn their opinion | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
against you? These were your allies. What is it? My people are more | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
important move. The people of the country. There are close to 12 | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
million people. You chose to single out somebody on the street | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
spreading rumours or creating stories. All you choose to believe | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
the millions of people of Rwanda. It is your call. It is not one or | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
the other, Mr President. We live in the same world so don't treat | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
Rwanda given the from the rest of the world. We live in the same | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
world where there is no situation that people will agree 100%. If you | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
are talking about Rwanda, just look at it in the same context as you | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
see the rest of the world. But you have dismissed the criticism from | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
your former allies. But one of your biggest donors, the US, the | :09:47. | :09:55. | |
ambassador to the UN has applauded your economic vitality, which she | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
says has moved the country forward. And yet the political culture, she | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
says, in Rwanda remains comparatively closed. When a key | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
ally like the US says that, you have to take notice, don't you? | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
US or any other country do not manage Rwanda. It is managed by the | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
people of Rwanda. Listen to them. But they are one of your biggest | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
bilateral aid donors. It does not determine how we live our lives. | :10:24. | :10:32. | |
What do you say to her? If you are talking about her, look a bit in | :10:32. | :10:41. | |
history. Look at the failures of these friends. One day you want to | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
believe what they say, I am sure even if you don't want to, this is | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
what I am telling you. People of Rwanda live their lives and | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
determine how they live their lives. I am supposed to ensure that. | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
not a politically closed country because you have got people like | :11:00. | :11:09. | |
the Opposition Leader who is on trial because she... I am just | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
putting it to you. Let's talk about things that matter to the lives | :11:14. | :11:21. | |
of... Dissidents remain silent out of fear in Rwanda. What is your | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
response? My response is that maybe if you take all of your time for | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
most of your time asking everybody in this world, all of these | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
problems. We do put these points and criticisms two leaders and | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
other politicians. I was not being cynical. I was giving you a chance | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
to rebut these allegations. We have explained this so-called | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
allegations. I am glad you are even pudding it that way. You are | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
talking about all of the progress that people in Rwanda and are | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
making and then you put it back and bring in one individuals saying | :12:03. | :12:13. | |
:12:13. | :12:13. | ||
this. Even out of context. People are in the courts to answer the | :12:13. | :12:23. | |
charges against them. What is wrong with that? She is not punished | :12:23. | :12:32. | |
without hearing her. There are also others. She is being found guilty | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
of genocide, promoting genocide, and violating the law that | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
prohibits genocide. She said that the innocent majority who died | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
alongside the Tutsis in the genocide... But you are asking me | :12:46. | :12:55. | |
every case that has been handled by the court in Rwanda. It does not | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
look good when you have... To who? It does not look good to you who | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
does not understand problems of Rwanda. But it is making good | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
progress. The people are holding each other and holding themselves | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
accountable. We will talk about the economy in a while. As I said, you | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
have been totally applauded for your efforts for including | :13:18. | :13:26. | |
agriculture and output. Undoubtedly, everybody says it is a big economic | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
success story. Fantastic rate of growth. But it is the politics I | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
was trying to pick you up on. the politics were wrong, the | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
Agriculture would not thrive. Agriculture involves the people of | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
Rwanda. They are doing their agriculture, feeding themselves. It | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
is the politics behind it driving it. You are facing huge allegations | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
now, renewed once, about your activities or alleged activities in | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
the neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo. The UN report | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
earlier this year says that the Rwandan government is backing a | :14:04. | :14:12. | |
rebel movement in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Led by a former | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
Congolese general. What is your response to these very serious | :14:15. | :14:22. | |
allegations? My response is that we are not connected at all with the | :14:22. | :14:32. | |
:14:32. | :14:34. | ||
cause of the uprising by M23. We do not support it. We don't know what | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
they are about or what they want. We are not involved at all and it | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
would not make sense because, for us, our relationship with the Congo | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
before this happened was very good. We were working together to | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
eliminate the problem that has existed between the two countries. | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Some people are not happy about working with the Congolese so I | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
tried to undermine that. Then, all of a sudden, because of the | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
problems with the Congo, this issue came up. It is an internal problem | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
of Congo and the faded thereof in terms of the covenants and how to | :15:11. | :15:19. | |
resolve their own problems that has created this is shook. -- this | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
issue. But this group of experts who put together this report and in | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
their briefing to the UN sanctions Committee on 13th June, they say | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
they gathered evidence of arms embargo and sanctions raging | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
violations committed by the Rwandan government. They say these | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
violations included financial and arms support to armed rebels in the | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
:15:52. | :15:57. | ||
Let me clarify. The so-called report is attached to the interim | :15:57. | :16:07. | |
:16:07. | :16:14. | ||
report by so-called experts... Second, if you look at what is said, | :16:14. | :16:24. | |
:16:24. | :16:31. | ||
it tells you... The facts are there. Names of people that were from | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
Rwanda that were put there. They would they want to invent | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
information? Let me tell you the facts and you can make your own | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
conclusion. If you look at the report it has been based on what | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
the soldiers have said in the Congo. The military in the Congo. The | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
intelligence people. The so-called defectors. This is what they are | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
talking about. I'm telling you for a fact that people have been | :17:08. | :17:18. | |
:17:18. | :17:19. | ||
accused have not been asked at all. Do you want these experts, your | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
Foreign Minister says they should come to Rwanda to carry out their | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
investigation. Had he invited them? Before I do that I am questioning | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
the expertise of the investigation. How do you pick someone on the | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
street and then invite them? The UN Secretary General has spoken to you | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
on the telephone and also the president of the Democratic | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
Republic of Congo... That is true. Is he making this statement on a | :17:54. | :18:04. | |
:18:04. | :18:07. | ||
useless report? He says he has got serious concerns. How does that | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
relate to the report? He says he is very concerned. He has serious | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
concerns about the external support that the... He is concerned about | :18:21. | :18:31. | |
:18:31. | :18:34. | ||
the various goings on. He talked about the report. Did he ask, is | :18:34. | :18:44. | |
:18:44. | :18:51. | ||
Rwanda supporting... His people lied to him. Why would they make | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
all this stuff up? I have told you the facts. Then you can major own | :18:58. | :19:08. | |
conclusion. -- make urine. The report is written just asking one | :19:08. | :19:18. | |
:19:18. | :19:28. | ||
side. -- make your own. Direct assistance of the M23, yes or no? | :19:28. | :19:38. | |
:19:38. | :19:45. | ||
That is what is Britain. It is not true. -- written. Recruited at -- | :19:45. | :19:54. | |
youth. The provision of weapons and ammunition? They are getting a | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
mission from where they are fighting. Let me tell you the main | :20:00. | :20:08. | |
problem in this Congo's situation is ignorance and arrogance of | :20:08. | :20:17. | |
people not listening. -- ammunition. The ignorance of people saying | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
someone is giving them arms. have said no to all of those. You | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
say the UN report is baseless. You are being urged to meet the | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
President of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Let me tell you | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
this ignorance that is taking place. The Secretary General, he did not | :20:43. | :20:53. | |
:20:53. | :20:56. | ||
know that we talked... Will you meet him face to face? Your Foreign | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
Minister has said there is an agreement. You have not decided | :21:01. | :21:11. | |
:21:11. | :21:14. | ||
whether or not to meet? One thing I do not like. The fighting going on | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
is not between Rwanda and the other. It is between one group that is | :21:21. | :21:29. | |
Congolese and another group that is Congolese. The other thing about | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
accusations is that you cannot substantiate. Could this support be | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
going on without your knowledge? There is no support that is going | :21:40. | :21:50. | |
on. There is no support that will go on. No renegade Rwanda | :21:50. | :21:59. | |
military... We do not have those. You have talked about making Rwanda | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
the Singapore of Africa and so on. In reality have a long way to go | :22:04. | :22:14. | |
:22:14. | :22:15. | ||
before you can be described as an African lion. 6% growth. How are | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
you going to be able to do this with 85% of people living on the | :22:20. | :22:29. | |
land? You touched on the dark side of things. If the country is | :22:29. | :22:39. | |
:22:39. | :22:43. | ||
feeding itself and exporting food to the rest of the region. If you | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
have children going to school for the first nine years, now extended | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
to 12 years, this is not a bad start. If you have health insurance | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
covering 94% of the population this is not a bad start. If you have | :23:00. | :23:10. | |
:23:10. | :23:13. | ||
women in power and girl children going to school, it is not a bad | :23:14. | :23:23. | |
:23:24. | :23:24. | ||
start. Among the three competitive economies in Africa it is not a bad | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
start. Rwanda 50 years since it became independent from Belgium, | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
what will your legacy be? You are just a bit older than your country. | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Will you go down as a bold and visionary leader? I cannot go down | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
on anything. I can just go up. My country is going up. I will be | :23:50. | :23:59. |