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Honduras. In this second of three programmes Stephen Sackur reports | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
from San Pedro Sula, the city with the world's highest murder rate. | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
:00:14. | :00:24. | ||
This programme contains disturbing images and flashing lights. | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
HARDtalk is on the road in San Pedro Sula in Honduras. The city | :00:29. | :00:39. | |
:00:39. | :00:40. | ||
were the highest murder rate in the world. -- with the. Up here it | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
looks calm, but down there are neighbourhoods in the grip of | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
violent gangs dedicated to drug trafficking and extortion. This | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
place is an example of what happens when the rules of civil society are | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
undermined by criminality and corruption. It is a broken city, | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
:01:09. | :01:10. | ||
can it be fixed? In San Pedro Sula the police are fighting a losing | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
battle against violent crime. I joined them on a night patrol in | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
the most lawless city in the world. In Honduras there is a murder every | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
74 minutes. Many of them happen here. This is a city where fear it | :01:30. | :01:40. | |
drives people off the streets after dark. The police, 800 of them in a | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
city of 1.2 million, are completely overwhelmed. The murder count has | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
just gone up by one. Dumped by a House, the body of a young man. His | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
hands and feet bound. His body riddled with bullets. Another gang | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
made out in a neighbourhood where no-one saw anything, heard anything, | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
:02:15. | :02:15. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds | :02:15. | :03:13. | |
knows anything. As foreign San Pedro Sula is a sprawling city | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
with 50 routes in and out. Police efforts to slow the traffic of | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
drugs and guns is by their own admission, ineffective. They blamed | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
the lack of resources. Many Honduran say police are part of the | :03:30. | :03:40. | |
:03:40. | :04:19. | ||
Do you ever think to yourself that San Pedro Sula is Honduras's | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
business hard, 20 years ago it was one of Central America's more | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
prosperous cities. Then the gangs moved in. Now when you walk through | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
the city centre by day, there is a veneer of normality. Look carefully | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
and you see that almost every business in the city relies on | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
private security. Armed guards massively outnumbered the police. | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
That is little comfort for those who cannot afford a personal | :04:50. | :05:00. | |
:05:00. | :05:02. | ||
protection. The city's taxi-drivers have become easy prey for the local | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
mafia. They have threatened every taxi company and every driver. | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
Either they pay a war tax on their weekly income or they can expect a | :05:13. | :05:21. | |
bullet in the head. Not surprisingly, this taxi-driver in | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
his 30s, with a jobless wife and a son to support, would only talk to | :05:26. | :05:36. | |
:05:36. | :06:10. | ||
What would happen to you if you told the gangs that you were no | :06:10. | :06:20. | |
:06:20. | :06:44. | ||
What about the police? The police are supposed to protect this city | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
:06:54. | :07:08. | ||
and your communities. Do They do Month after month, year after | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
blood-soaked Year of the chilling hearer increases. Some of it is | :07:14. | :07:23. | |
turf warfare between the two main gangs. The relentless violence has | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
infected the whole of society. Muggings, sex crimes and domestic | :07:29. | :07:39. | |
:07:39. | :07:42. | ||
disputes involve guns and murderous violence. The city's anguish is | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
feasible. Families of murder victims mounted a recent White | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
March Against violence. The taboo against speaking out for fear of | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
reprisals is breaking down. Grieving relatives rarely get the | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
chance to testify in court in the absence of justice, some chose to | :08:05. | :08:15. | |
:08:15. | :08:15. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds | :08:15. | :10:09. | |
The people of San Pedro Sula long ago abandoned the hope that their | :10:09. | :10:19. | |
:10:19. | :10:21. | ||
government would deliver them from evil. The Church has become a moral | :10:22. | :10:29. | |
liable refuge in this violent city. -- more reliable. The faithful | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
clinging to one of the few institutions not hollowed out by a | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
criminality and corruption. In San Pedro Sula the Catholic Church | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
authorities tried to establish a dialogue with the leaders of the | :10:41. | :10:48. | |
local gangs. But it has not silenced the guns. The sickness in | :10:48. | :10:58. | |
:10:58. | :10:58. | ||
this committee runs deep. -- community. Your city, San Pedro | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
Sula, has become the most violent city in Honduras, maybe in the | :11:05. | :11:15. | |
:11:15. | :11:15. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds | :11:15. | :12:22. | |
You have become famous throughout this country as a man who has tried | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
to establish a dialogue with some of the gang members. You have | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
reached out to them. You have spoken to them. How do you see | :12:34. | :12:44. | |
:12:44. | :13:18. | ||
these people? Do you see them as You have served this community for | :13:18. | :13:27. | |
a long time. I just wonder if you yourself are beginning to doubt the | :13:27. | :13:35. | |
future of this community? Whether you doubt that God is really in | :13:35. | :13:45. | |
:13:45. | :13:45. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds | :13:45. | :14:35. | |
Tulsa President is symptomatic of one juror's failing state -- San | :14:35. | :14:44. | |
Pedro Sula. -- Honduras. It has had five different governments in the | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
last six months. The latest escorted me into the prisoner | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
compound for a brief glimpse inside. The feel is chaotic, no-one is | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
visibly in charge. 2,200 men are penned inside these ramshackle jail | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
which was built for 700. Half of the inmates are on remand, not | :15:11. | :15:21. | |
:15:21. | :15:25. | ||
convicted of any crimes. The prison has repeatedly made headlines for | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
its violence and corruption. Two riots earlier this year left more | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
than a dozen prisoners dead. Drugs are inescapable inside, as are the | :15:37. | :15:46. | |
gangs. I was allowed to meet one convicted murderer from eight gang, | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
:15:56. | :15:56. | ||
he calls himself termite. Termite, I wanted to explain to me why, as a | :15:56. | :16:04. | |
child, you got involved in this game and, why did you join this | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
game? -- gang up. A needed to look after my family. I joined the game | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
for an easy life. It is a cause for which I would give my life. It | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
motivated me to join it. I would be part of it until I die. What was | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
your initiation? What did she do to prove that you were commit Ted to | :16:32. | :16:40. | |
the game? I killed guys from an enemy gang. I do everything from | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
the heart. Even if I give my own life. I was afraid because at the | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
time I was a boy. It had to be done. Otherwise, I would not have shown | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
them what I am made of. Did you have feelings of regret? No, not at | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
all. Had he been in the game make your life different? In the game | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
and you can have everything. You can have everything when you want | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
it. You need to decide you want it and go and get it. Beery strength | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
in numbers, everyone who is with us does better in every way, whether | :17:17. | :17:25. | |
they are boys or man. Gun violence has spread like an infection in San | :17:25. | :17:33. | |
Pedro Sula. The hospital is struggling to cope. While we were | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
there, a young man was brought in with gunshot wounds to the legs. | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
Another game shooting we were told. With every new victim comes a | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
question, why on earth has the Honduran state failed completely in | :17:50. | :17:58. | |
its duty to protect its citizens? Welcome to HARDtalk. I have come | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
back from spending quite a number of days in San Pedro Sula, and what | :18:04. | :18:12. | |
I found is a city that is been torn apart by violence and by crime. How | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
do you explain your Government's failure to deliver any form of | :18:18. | :18:28. | |
:18:28. | :18:47. | ||
security to the people of San Pedro I understand that you have set up | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
commissions and investigations, I wonder what your messages to the | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
people we met in the -- to the people in the town of San Pedro | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
Sula, who describes terrible crimes committed to their family. One | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
woman described how her brother was tortured and shot dead because he | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
and said the wrong part of town. Another woman had her husband shot | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
dead by an off-duty policeman. Neither of them denounced the | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
crimes to the police, they were convinced the police would not do | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
anything to help them. What is your message to these women, let alone | :19:25. | :19:35. | |
:19:35. | :19:57. | ||
With respect, minister, the evidence is that the police | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
themselves are amongst the worst criminals. To quote one taxi driver | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
in San Pedro Sula, he said, I do not report the fact that they | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
extort money to the police. Otherwise, the police will extort | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
money from me, they are as bad as the gangs. Do you believe that | :20:17. | :20:27. | |
:20:27. | :20:44. | ||
there are many criminals in your Human rights groups believe that | :20:44. | :20:51. | |
since the coup of 2009, there have been more than 300 people killed | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
for political reasons, including trade union activists, Land Reform | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
Act of theirs and in the last three years, more than 20 journalists. | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
Are you prepared to say to me now that you accept that agents acting | :21:08. | :21:18. | |
:21:18. | :21:23. | ||
for the state are responsible for those killings? -- land reform | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
activists. Do you think that agents acting for the Starr ate were | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
responsible for those killings? -- for the state. How does it help to | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
persuade the public got your seriousness when the government | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
appoints a new police chief, a man who a decade ago is based very | :21:50. | :21:58. | |
serious internal police allegations -- faced. Including allegations of | :21:58. | :22:08. | |
:22:08. | :22:34. | ||
murder and being an active member Last year, minister, you said that | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
maybe 1,000 police officers out of a total of 14,500 were corrupt and | :22:41. | :22:51. | |
:22:51. | :23:13. | ||
would have to go. Do you accept You're going to give every police | :23:13. | :23:23. | |
:23:23. | :23:24. | ||
officer or a lie detector test and a drug test? A final question, | :23:24. | :23:32. | |
minister, a personal question. Would you say that you and your | :23:32. | :23:42. | |
:23:42. | :24:11. | ||
Minister, thank you for being on HARDtalk. The end of a rain-soaked | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
police patrol in San Pedro Sula or, they told me it had been a quiet | :24:16. | :24:23. | |
Snipes. Just three murders were added to the city's heavy toll. The | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
Honduran government now promises a purge of the police and a crackdown | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
on crime. It will be a long time before the city emerges from the | :24:32. | :24:40. |