Lewis Moody -England rugby captain (2009-2011) HARDtalk

More from me at 2pm. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

There is no room for sentiment in elite sport. My guest today learned

that lesson when he captained England's rugby team at last year's

World Cup in New Zealand. Nevin it -- never mind his 70 odd caps and

his reputation for commitment, Lewis Moody came under fire for

England's poor performance on and off the field. Today, he retired

from the game which has dominated so much of his life. -- this year.

Physically and mentally, how heavy a toll has robbed the taken? --

Lewis Moody, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. In your rugby career,

you acquired one of the best known nicknames in what the sport. You

were known as Mad Dog. You wore it as a badge of honour. Why? For me

it was a term of endearment. People had seen the way I committed myself

to the game and to the cause. To whichever team it was, Leicester or

England. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was Brian Ashton who probably

peaked that nickname after the 2007 World Cup. I got knocked down twice

playing Tonga and it stuck from there. You talk about being knocked

out twice which brings me to a quote from Andy Farrell, now senior

member of the England coaching staff. He said he had never seen

any other player put his body on the line like you did. He said, a

fighter who has total disrespect to a body. Was that true? The whole

this respect for my own body, I have a huge amount of respect for

my body. I just wish it would respect me and what I wanted to do

with it more. It has let me down. You say that with a smile on your

face. He once played in a game we were knocked out twice. No medical

doctor would allow you to do that. Possibly to everybody else that may

seem insane but from an early age I was taught that the -- that in

rugby you do as much as you can for your team-mates. For me, putting my

head and body about where people may not want to normally was just

doing my bit for the team. If I showed that enthusiasm for my team-

mates, they would show it for me. When I first played at Leicester,

it was drilled into me at 18 and it was something I could never shake.

Fall on nothing training. And certainly my body paid a heavy toll

but I thoroughly enjoyed every run it. -- all or nothing. We will get

back to your body's condition later. But if you think about the England

team in 2003, it was triumphant, and then the England team that you

lived in 2011, it has to be said it ended in a fairly disastrous loss

to France in the quarterfinals, was the biggest difference between

those two teens, one of attitude don't think it was hunger. Any

rugby player I have made is hungry for success. Those that don't soon

disappear. But if you look at 2003, that was a side that is difficult

to compare to because they have been together for many years and

had gone through tough times. In the late 90s, the tool of doom that

I was on as a 19-year-old. And then through the early 2000s when they

got two Grand Slams and lost out on the last game. Three successive

once they lost. In 2002, we won the first Six Nations. They've learnt a

lot through that period. Include 1011, we were a young side but we

were building nicely. -- in 2011. We came to Australia having only

won twice in Australia in 125 years. We did it again. Three times. We

were one of the teams that did it. Don't race ahead of yourself. Just

sticking with 2003, it was historic in England to come back with a

World Cup and it was a big deal for the nation. But you mention of Sir

Clive Woodward who was the coach. You said he may not have been

everybody's cup of tea but he turned us into consummate

professionals. I wonder, with your experience, is it true that a coach

who has the ability to impose his will on a team can make the

difference between success and failure? I absolutely believe that.

Clive Woodward was an example of that. He understood what was

required and changed England in that professional career. No matter

how much time was left on the clock, he showed he still have enough time

to score. And imposing his will in terms of team discipline. I want to

talk about alcohol and maybe the lack of discipline in 2011. But he

said if you don't buy into my programme, you are gone. He did

that and he sent down his laws and what was going to happen. You can't

speak highly enough of him as an individual but he did take England

into a different era. We then get up to 2011. You didn't have Clive

Woodward and you were coached by Martin Johnson who had been a

player with you for so long during the brilliant campaigns in 2003.

And you were the captain. Would you now, looking back on it, save that

you and he, Martin Johnson, failed to impose the right mentality and

the right discipline upon that scored? You certainly look back...

I was always my fiercest critic. Whatever you do, whether as a

player or captain, you go back and analyse and address the things you

think you have done well on the pitch, you have done badly, the

things you have done well as the leader or you tried to pre-empt the

things you might do badly see you can address them in the future.

Looking back, there were times when I possibly said something or give

something differently for different individuals... One of the most

frustrating things about that whole tour for me was that we spoke a

length about the media scrutiny we came under in the World Cup.

Beforehand? Before leaving the shores. And then again when we got

there. The fact we still managed to let ourselves open to that media

scrutiny. That was the most disappointing thing for me. As

players, you have to hold up your hands and be accountable and say,

we could have done better. I don't want to go through every incident

but perhaps there was one particular incident that we have to

talk about a little bit. That is, I think the 9th it was after you one

and many of the boys went out drinking in a particular bar. You

were there and it was a bizarre weekend in this bar. There were

many people there. A lot of beer was drunk. But at 10pm, you have

written about it, you said alarm bells were going off and he decided

to get out of there and go back to the hotel. Several of your team-

mates, including Mike Tindall, didn't take that decision and their

faces ended up all over the newspapers for various reasons in

the following days, most of them concerning alcohol. Why as captain

did you not say to the team, we are leaving now? Because at that

particular point, and you are right in saying I was there, we actually

started off the night in a completely separate bar having a

few things together as a team, as many teams do when they want to get

away from rugby at some point. We then moved on and we came across

this bar. We went in to watch one of the best games of the tournament

in terms of the rugby. When that finished, myself and a few of the

lads decided to leave. Obviously the other stuff that was going on

in the bar made us think it was time to go. At that point, there

were a couple of guys with me, not the people you have spoken about,

and I wish they had taken them with me, but I wish I had stayed and not

left. Later, the guys did a ride. If I had been there, I'd like to

think that I would have been able to say, this is not right. You have

to walk away and take that responsibility. I am gutted to this

day that I didn't stay with a couple of the lads that remained in

the bar and then would have come across the other boys and that to

write later and could have said something and hopefully changed the

course of that tournament. But whether we would have performed

better on the pitch because of that or not, I don't know. With all the

off-field issues, it severely affected certain individuals. It

affected me. I was dealing with meetings I should not have dealt

with. I just wonder if there is a sense, perhaps will you and Martin

Johnson, that it was difficult to impose discipline on senior players,

whom you were friends with and had been colleagues with and been

through battles with, and when it came to it, you couldn't quite find

the right way of dealing with these senior players in a team for whom

you are now responsible with Martin Johnson? At the end of the day,

when you are involved in 18, you can talk and lay down the laws and

there is a certain amount of accountability as individuals. --

in 18. You have to understand your actions there are just reflect on

yourself but on the group. He trusted other to do that and on

that tour, there was some naivety and we allowed the media to get in

where we didn't want to. But that's history. Thankfully, England have

now... Martin Johnson called it a day after that. If you look at the

coaches that have succeeded, when I look at Clive Woodward, his first

tour as an England coach, it could have all quite easily have gone

wrong. He knew where he wanted to go and he saw a vision. He grew

that team and himself and eventually he came away in 2003. I

hope -- I wish Martyn could have done the same thing. But he stepped

down and I think Stuart has taken over. A final thought about the

fall-out from the 2011 World Cup debacle. Afterwards, there were

various reviews from the Rugby Football Union in the UK in England.

They included anonymous interviews with players, which were leaked to

the Times newspapers. We don't know which players said White but some

said things like this, I quote, senior players on the two were were

pushing boundaries and treating it like it was an old school to work,

drinking to excess. There was a culture where it was not cool to

train hard. One young player said that after the defeat to France, a

senior player came into the dressing room and said, there is

�35,000 down the toilet. The young player commented, that made me sick

because money should not even come into it. You must have been very

disappointed? Hugely. I was disappointed on a number of levels.

Firstly, that those reports had been leaked because they were

supposed to be private affairs that we could take away and deal with.

We all felt let down by players, coaches and everyone. But

personally in terms of the criticism aimed at individuals,

talking about the money, money should never come into it.

Thankfully, I did not hear the person who said that. I would have

been frustrated if I did. When you have just lost, people can say

anything. Whoever said it, I have no idea. But, at the end of the day,

there was this rift created by those couple of Commons. If you

take the reams of information that we gathered during that report and

you take out a couple of comments like that, then it kind of creates

the swift. But it wasn't like that. There was a huge amount of

dedicated individuals and a handful of guys that possibly were slightly

naive in terms of the number of areas. Were some of them senior

players? It goes across the board. There was some naivety at times. --

in terms of the areas. You would love to go back and create those in

hindsight. I do send us in terms of the way the Rugby Football Union is

administered, one journalist has called it the most dysfunctional

administrative body in the whole of professional sport. Did they fix

It is an interesting question. With the League reports there was a huge

amount of disappointment from the playing staff and coaches in terms

of what was said. It was supposed to be confidential. The director

criticised you for, according to the leaks, leaving a player

rebellion on the eve of departure for the World Cup due to concerns

about money. He then came under huge criticism and is still sitting

as the professional director of the Rugby Football Union. Do you think

his head has to roll? After that 2011 campaign Barre few that were

in a bit of a shambles. Some of the things that happened were not right

in any way, shape or form. Thankfully they have taken over.

Everything had seen them do - one of the problems was that nobody was

working together as a team. It is a team sport. On the pitch you work

as a team. Coaches work for one common goal. They now all seem to

be in the right direction. You were a bit more free to talk now than

when you were the captain. Do you believe Robert Andrew should go?

will not get into way personal battle on that. What happened after

the World Cup, I was accountable, they were accountable. Whatever

happens in the future will happen. Very much safer hands now. I wish

to take a step back and have you consider your whole career. It was

a long one. You started when you were five years old. You have had

so many years in the professional game. How profound was the change

in terms of money? It was profound at the start. The year I left

school I was playing a -- planning to the town -- I was planning to

join the military. Thankfully road be turned professional but summer.

It was very fortunate. Otherwise I would be in the military. Money

changed everything. I remember the first session we had they said, we

are professional now. We will train 925. -- 9 - 5. We would get to the

damage to your body. You have had so many fractures, tears, serious

injuries. When you look at what other top sportsmen do, sports like

professional football, tennis or golf, they do not put their bodies

on the line the way you do. You still do not learn the money they

do, do you resent that? I would never resent anyone earning as much

money as they can earn. It is one of those sports that you do it

because you love it. I was lucky because they got to earn money out

of it. Without going into too much personal detail have you set

yourself up for life? Absolutely not. I would be lucky if I earned

enough to last a year. We were lucky as players. Be made a good

living. Nowhere near that of footballers and other athletes.

Rugby is a growing sport. It was a run the 2003 that it suddenly

became part of the English psyche. More money has been pumped into

which. I just hope it can stay grounded in its roots as it always

has been and there we can keep producing level-headed individuals.

One of the most extraordinary aspects of your Korea is that we

now know, because you have been honest, were seriously ill for a

number of years when you were at the top of the game. You had a very

serious condition. It was debilitating for a while. How on

earth as a professional sportsman did you deal with that? It was

really tough. I didn't know anyone that openly talks about it. Faure

young man who was 25 and all of a sudden you're going to the loo, 20

times a day, you while losing a relentless a mass of lard. I left

is a month before I saw a doctor. It was a daily routine. Eventually

I went and had a colonoscopy. It was certainly one experience I do

not enjoy. It was very humiliating and debilitating. I thought it

wasn't all person's disease. -- old person's disease. It is coming into

the public eye more. Finding information was the hardest thing.

A -- I tried to hide it from my team-mates. Isn't that the point?

We have talked a lot about the culture of rugby. The culture of

the dressing room. It is an incredibly much of place. Having

this disease of the bowel, with everything that came with it, was

extraordinarily difficult to be honest about. You have to put a

front one in the dressing room. This was a vulnerability that you

could not reveal. It was probably a couple of years until I actually

told my good mates. They knew already. I lost weight, I was

struggling to leave the house sometimes. I only lived four

minutes away from the training ground. Sometimes I had to plan the

route this -- so that I could stop on the way. People wondered what

was going on. It became a much easier when I did tell them. It was

a macho environment, but when I told the lads, if I had to sprint

often goes to the low, it was an emergency stop. It became known.

They could joke about it and I could relax about it. It made my

life easier. That was a learning curve for me. What intrigues me

about all top-level sportsman, when they quit, is how they recreate the

bars, the adrenalin, but they have had from their sport in the rest of

their life. How do you do with? cannot say I have found a way. The

other day I was with my wife in the garden. We have been buying plants

and mowing the lawn and stuff. She arrange some players and said, do

they look right their? They said, adding low care, they are just

plants. I went off at her. A few minutes later I apologise. She said,

you need to go to the gym. You need to that of some testosterone. You

have to find a way to release the energy. Whether it is me going to

the gym, I have taken up a challenge of tracking for a charity.

It will be aware of focusing my mind into working on a challenge

that is tough enough to propel me. We are almost out of time. There

are so many sportsmen who have struggled with an idea that in

their 20s and 30s they reached a pinnacle that they will never be

able to recreate. A sense of, I have done the best thing I've ever

done. What you think of it? have just thoroughly depressed me.

Maybe in the months or years to come there will be a morning forays