Browse content similar to Maajid Nawaz - Chairman of Quilliam (counter extremisim organisation). Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk. What is and is the most? | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
Are a potentially dangerous extremism or an activist whose | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
Muslim of faith is central to their political vision? My guess is in | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
the thick of that controversial debate. Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
who became a radical Islamist. He was arrested in Hosni Mubarak's | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
hijab. When released, he launched a campaign to counter Islamist | :00:40. | :00:48. | |
ideology. To some he is a truth teller, to others a traitor. How | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
:00:58. | :01:19. | ||
Maajid Nawaz, Aidan Guerra to HARDtalk. I alluded to an | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
extraordinary life story which has taking you to -- from rebellious | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
streak in in a typical English down to a diehard of radical Islamist | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
and now to some body absolutely committed to the political fight | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
against Islamism. Are you convinced that you have found yourself now? | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
Anyone who hasn't read my autobiography will end up with that | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
conclusion that I have. The reason I say that is when you arrive at | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
radical political thinking, you cannot accommodate all views as | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
long as all views tolerate each other. It is pretty easy to accept | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
differences at that stage. You remind me of of the famous | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
historian who declared the end of history and, of course, we have | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
seen plenty of history cents. Maybe there are things that can shake | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
your current belief? I do not think liberalism is Western. I do not | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
think we have reached the end of history. I think that human | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
civilisation is the combination of building upon what we learnt as | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
human beings from other civilisations. Even democracy, | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
originating in Greece, was preserved fruit and berries | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
cultures. The idea that Muslims are rebound is ingrained in the fact | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
that Islam does not have a clergy so there is no one official version. | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
There is nothing un-Islamic or unease and about tolerance. We're | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
going to talk about Islam and politics. The relationship between | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
the two. You were raised in a Muslim family in the UK. Are you an | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
observant Muslim? I would not hold myself out as a role-model. I am | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
not devout in any shape or form. Are you observed and? I do nothing | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
that term has very much meaning because everyone is a sinner. I | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
will pray and fast but I will not hold myself out as a role-model. I | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
am not speaking religion at all. I'm speaking politics, of the | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
dangers when one's view of religion is an force in the political sphere. | :03:39. | :03:48. | |
It is difficult. You are in an area where everything is complicated. It | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
seems to me one of the complications his personal | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
relationships are tied up with identity and religion and politics. | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
For example, since you have made your transformation, what have your | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
personal relationships been like with family, for example - have | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
some of them senior as a traitor? Might entire social life, including | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
my marriage, were with people that belong to my former organisation. | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
As somebody leaves a grip like that and becomes heavily critical of | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
that group, it has an impact on the relationships. I do not wanted this | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
respect those X family members or riven current family members and | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
they remain sympathetic to the is a must ideology. What I will say, by | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
criticising those used in public, they are no longer sympathetic to | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
me in and doing that work. As soon as you reach the decision of | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
renunciation of your previously held political views and ideology, | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
you knew, that your relationship, for example, with your wife had to | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
be over by definition? I have written about that. That is what I | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
have said. It is a decision that nobody can make lightly. So many | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
people believe is Ms organisations do not then go on to speak about it | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
in public because it has a social cost. It has an impact an effect on | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
the relationship they have built up over 10, 15 years of your life. It | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
is then not easy to make a conscious decision to say, I'm | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
going to speak about something I believe in and change what I used | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
to believe in but I am aware it will have a cost of my friendships | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
and relationships. I do not blame anyone for not taking that extras | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
that knowing that is the consequence of it. Let's start at | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
the beginning of your journey in it the small town of Southend in the | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
south-east Coast of England. What was it about your upbringing, do | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
you think, that led to open to the radical message? Was at | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
victimisation, racism? There was a lot of serious and violent racism I | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
experienced as a teenager. Attacks with hammers screwdrivers and nice. | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
There was police, institutional discrimination. These grievances I | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
maintained are insufficient as the only explanation for the process of | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
someone going towards extremism. Something else has to happen. Not | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
everyone that experiences racism joins extremists. In addition to | :06:32. | :06:39. | |
these grievances, I'm not excluding them, I sought at narrative that | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
tells people these grievances, and these races and so are simply | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
because I am a Muslim and in that I find solidarity with Muslims across | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
the world who are also targeted simply because they're Muslim. A | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
narrative emerges that Muslims are for all over the world and the | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
anyway to defend them is to fight back and defend them across the | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
world. The remorse and civil a great deal of sympathy and | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
political support for fellow Moors and suffering in other parts of the | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
well without going the step you just go? That is true. There is the | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
difference between those who joined his almost organisations and those | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
who do not. Coming back to my question. Why did you make that | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
step to believe that the only responsible answer for a Muslim his | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
active support and political duty to try and achieve this notion of a | :07:41. | :07:49. | |
cover for it? In general, Barack a few factors that lead into -- there | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
are few factors that lead to this. An acute sense of identity crisis, | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
not knowing whether I was British or Pakistanis or indeed Muslim. | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
These identities all came to a head and the 4th factor is a came across | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
a charismatic recruiter who was able to join the dots for me. I | :08:10. | :08:18. | |
wasn't angry 15 year-old, running from hammer attacks and dodging | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
police discrimination. The days before the mack fees and report. It | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
was a tempting narrative to explain to the grief, including in Bosnia. | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
If I may 0.2 and a story, you and your older brother, after a series | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
of skirmishes in your home town, you were confronting them one more | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
time and looked as though you were in for a very physical fight and | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
your older brother took charge and he managed to persuade these young | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
white kits to walk away in a way you were clearly impressed by. In | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the retelling of that story, can you explain to me what it did to | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
your mind said? We were surrounded and outnumbered and out what a nice, | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
if you like, I pretty much sought we were about to get completely | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
beaten to a pulp. My brother step forward, he called the leader over | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
to the other side of the road. He said to the leader, these were near | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
announces paramilitaries, and is said to this man, you may outnumber | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
us, you may have more weapons than us but in my back here, I have a | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
bomb. If you choose to attack us, I will take you out and we were all | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
died but we do not fear death. My mother had adopted this is a this | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
narrative very year and had been attempted to recruit me and I had | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
been refusing because I did dot essentially one to change my last | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
off. When I saw this, I saw the immediate results than a narrative | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
could achieve, essentially a propaganda they can strike fear in | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
the hearts of your enemy. I realise that this was a form of protection | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
and identity that could achieve results. Again, as a 15 year-old, | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
it started to make sense. In the early Nineties and mid-Nineties, | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
Islamism was a revolutionary ideology of so many Muslims across | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
the world. If we fast forward, why then, when you were stuck in this | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
Egyptian prison, you had become an activist for Feteesha. You had gone | :10:38. | :10:48. | |
:10:48. | :10:49. | ||
around trying to recruit -- activist for Reed -- Hizb ut-Tahir. | :10:49. | :10:57. | |
Why did due after being stuck in prison, why did your commitment we | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
can? I could have founded the group in four countries. I was 24. Very | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
young. When I entered prison, two things happen which began the five | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
new process of me unravelling my political ideology. They were - the | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
amnesty International adopted me and began campaigning for my | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
release. I really truly appreciated what I had defined as the other | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
campaigning for my rights even though I believe them to be my | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
enemy and the enemy of my people. That began a very humanisation | :11:31. | :11:40. | |
process. I started to empathise with the other. Why? Hosni Mubarak | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
security organisations were arresting huge number of Muslim | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
Brotherhood supporters, people they feed could undermine their grip on | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
power. You were one of them. Many of them reacted to being turned | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
into prisoners of conscience by hardening their political struggle. | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
But you do not harden your commitment. In fact, you lost your | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
commitment. I was actually involved quite heavily in the injured prop - | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
- uprising. Mike commitment to overthrowing dictators has remained | :12:19. | :12:28. | |
what I changed is the ideology. In fact, I have been at Tate -- | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
attacked for all my anti- Hosni Mubarak attitudes. You seem to | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
suggest it was not a bad thing that the Egyptian court had dissolved | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
the parliament which as a result of a democratic election was dominated | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
by a Muslim Brotherhood. What I said was, we need the Democratic | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
Trinity to be rooted in Egyptian society - culture, institutions and | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
processes. What I said was that if people were worried the Brotherhood | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
were dominating the political thing, they should not be because they no | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
longer control parliament. I will not ever contradict the will of the | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
Egyptian people to say they have no right to elect who they won. When | :13:14. | :13:24. | |
:13:24. | :13:26. | ||
you talk about the fears of a is a mistake over, -- Islamist take over, | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
in various different ways we have seen the Muslim Brotherhood of | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
playing an important role in the post revolutionary process and yet | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
we see democracy is winning out. The Muslim Brotherhood forces are | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
highly adaptable, highly flexible and appear, at the moment, to be | :13:45. | :13:55. | |
:13:55. | :14:02. | ||
In Egypt and Tunisia, if we take the Tunisian example, their | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
experience at consoles. The Brotherhood, within their own | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
organisation, had the ability to progress at the on that line. | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
People are ratcheting the fear mongering are subscribing to the | :14:15. | :14:21. | |
neoconservative models. I'm trying to calm those he is down. I find it | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
strange that you are saying that I am end framing those fears. I had | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
been reading a lot of things. Looking back at some of the estate | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
MS, I am sure you will remember, when one of Britain's leading | :14:37. | :14:47. | |
:14:47. | :14:47. | ||
newspapers got hold of a document which was said to be from your | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
organisation, one of the quotes are from this document was the ideology | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
that it is similar to violence but disagree on tactics. Do you still | :15:00. | :15:07. | |
believe that? Those who desire to impose an interpretation of Islam | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
over society is the definition of Islam are used in the document. I | :15:13. | :15:23. | |
:15:23. | :15:27. | ||
still believe in does. -- this. The difference is Al-Qaeda attempted to | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
director terrorism said they are bad. Muslim Brotherhood attempt to | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
do it in a democracy. We expect the will of the Egyptian people to | :15:36. | :15:45. | |
elect them. I am very confused. Are you telling me that you still see | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
the people who are carrying power in Egypt, including the President | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
and the dominant forces in the Egyptian parliament, as broadly as | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
the same as the violence is a nurse but they differ in tactics? That is | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
not what we were saying. It is what you said. I asked you if he | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
retracted it. You can have communist who are militant and | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
communist-run not militant. They still believed in communism. The | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
difference in some believe in violence and others believe the net | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
three election. That is the same as his long. For you to sit there and | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
say that I am attempting to equate the brotherhood with the Al-Qaeda | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
when I clearly said we should refrain from interfering in | :16:35. | :16:45. | |
:16:45. | :16:50. | ||
politics... It is rather odd. not trying to plant any notion in | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
your head or the audience's head. I am China makes sense in what you | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
have changed. He can be a communist and Lytton and a communist and not | :17:00. | :17:10. | |
:17:10. | :17:13. | ||
a militant. But you still believe in the same ideology. I have | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
suffered personally. When you try and explain to me how you develop | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
to ideas from that particular quote that I mention, are you telling me | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
that you regard people like Muhammad more see as a man you can | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
trust or a man you have to fundamentally distressed because he | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
is still part of the Islamists move maybe who you say in ideological | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
terms is broadly similar to groups like Al-Qaeda? I distrust every | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
politician. I am saying some politicians a power-hungry. And | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
there are some who are distressed because of their ideologically but | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
they may not necessarily be corrupt. My concern with is the most | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
politicians is not their corruption necessarily, my concern is the | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
values and ideas they believe in. Tunisia have evolved. We must | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
constantly be vigilance and scrutinised the values and conducts | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
of every politician. What about the British Islamic -- Islamist | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
institutions which you organisation Spencer much time and energy | :18:22. | :18:32. | |
:18:32. | :18:38. | ||
criticising. In the same memo, having changed your mind about it | :18:38. | :18:48. | |
:18:48. | :18:55. | ||
being dominated by the is a must ideologies? -- is a must. We need | :18:55. | :19:05. | |
:19:05. | :19:05. | ||
see engage with. I believe in the citizenship. The only issue in this | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
document is whether you are justified in calling them extreme s | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
and by clear indication at saying they're dangerous. The Muslim | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
community is made for many different views. It would be | :19:18. | :19:28. | |
:19:28. | :19:30. | ||
incorrect but anyone to say as a whole the organisation is extremist. | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
We should not treat them as a separate entity from the rest of | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
the country. That is unhealthy for us Muslims themselves. There has | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
been a big debate in recent years about the degree to which to | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
understand extreme ideologies within the Muslim communities, you | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
have to understand the anger and the nationalist feeling that comes, | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
for example, with Western policies in Iraq. Do you believe that is | :19:56. | :20:04. | |
important? Absolutely. When you have suggested there is a pathway | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
from his Israel identity politics through to vocalisation, through to | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
extremism, through to violence, which does not pay accounts to this | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
anger that comes from Western actions in countries like Iraq - it | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
is misleading. I don't understand how it doesn't. Read a close Asian | :20:26. | :20:36. | |
:20:36. | :20:37. | ||
is caused by a combination of grievances, charismatic group would | :20:37. | :20:45. | |
charismatic recruiters and a loss of identity. Identity crisis are | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
real. People are starting to embrace people are different skin | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
colour is in Britain. When I was growing up, it was not as inclusive. | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Chaz magic recruiters need to be challenged. These factors need to | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
be addressed. You talk about the work you're doing. It has been | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
difficult for you are organisation because government funding has been | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
taken away. Your organisation was very heavily dependent on | :21:13. | :21:22. | |
government money. He �3 million over three years. When we founded | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
the organisation, we were 80% funded by public grants. Including | :21:27. | :21:35. | |
many other organisations. We were heavily funded by public funds. | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
That was cut in December, 2010. It was because we disagreed, at the | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
time, with the direction the Government was headed. Now that the | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
strategy has changed and the policy of the government has changed, we | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
have revitalised those relationships. But we are now | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
worried % privately funded. It allows me to do the work without | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
having to face questions about which government is funding year. | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
To be clear about it, when your opponents or say you were heavily | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
influenced by the government because you're taking govern money, | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
that was true to a certain extent. When we began realising, when we | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
began facing some of the challenges in the discussion, we did not | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
compromise. That is to our credit. We went out on alien to say we did | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
not agree with this aspect of the policy. -- on 8 million. As a | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
result, the relationship ended. you think de Arab Spring has | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
fundamentally changed mind steps in the West as well? And some of | :22:44. | :22:53. | |
beefier when your organisation was founded, that fear has dissipated. | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
-- some of the here. The Middle East has proven to be much more | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
flexible and tolerant than you would have expected. Not just me. | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
Tunisia were always quite flexible and adaptable. The fear element | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
which I have been trying to calm down with my articles, I've written | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
in many different publications, I had been trying to say to people | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
that it is not as bad as you here. These organisations do not form the | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
majority of the society. They are constrained by other political | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
parties and institutions. Many of the groups have shown an | :23:33. | :23:43. | |
:23:43. | :23:45. | ||
inclination of ditching the idea... I have never paddled a conveyor | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
belt idea. Non-violent action isn't is a problem within itself. If | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
racism exists in society, whether at least a violent racism or not it | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
is still a problem. Like Wales -- likewise with business. If someone | :24:03. | :24:13. | |
:24:13. | :24:15. | ||
believes in the an idea it is a problem for society. It needs to be | :24:15. | :24:21. |