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talks ahead of their meeting with the Greek Prime Minister over the | :00:02. | :00:11. | |
weekend. It is now time for HARDtalk. | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
When South African police shot dead 34 striking Mineworkers days ago, | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
the deep divisions within post apartheid South Africa were Crawley | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
exposed. South Africa's government faces a potentially damaging | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
combination of worker unrest, investor uncertainty and political | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
infighting. My guest is Rob Davies, South Africa's Minister of Trade | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
and Industry. What has South Africa's learned from the massacre | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
:00:58. | :01:22. | ||
Rob Davies, in Cape Town, thank you for joining us. It is a pleasure. | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
We have to start with the events at Marikana a few days ago. Are you | :01:29. | :01:37. | |
proud with the way your government handled the mass killing? I am | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
proud of the way in which the our government has respo | :01:41. | :01:50. | |
events. The events are an enormous tragedy. We need to go into a | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
judiciary investigation which the President announced. Our President | :01:53. | :02:02. | |
cut short his summit. He flew back to the officials in charge of the | :02:02. | :02:11. | |
situation. He appropriately defined this week as a week of mourning. | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
Our response has been a response which has been to see this as an | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
enormous challenge and a tragedy, something which we have to respond | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
to whizz all hours born -- resources. What about the police | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
commissioner? Are a woman said she did not believe the police should | :02:33. | :02:40. | |
be sorry for opening fire. It was the right thing to do. The actions | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
of the police and action of the police commanders will be looked at. | :02:47. | :02:56. | |
With considerable debts, that is. - - debts. It is an appropriate | :02:56. | :03:05. | |
response. We will investigate his circumstances. It is an enormous | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
tragedy that should not have happened. You sit in the government | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
alongside the police minister. Hugh is what was said the other day. The | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
minister said, how can the police commissioner or police minister | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
keep their posts in a civilised society after more than 40 people | :03:30. | :03:38. | |
have been killed in the mining incident? A incident? Aill | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
responsibility. responsibility. Who did what wrong | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
and who will be held to account. That is heap correct prices in the | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
democratic society. There needs to be evidence. There is the question | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
of responsibility. Police have to be held to account. Somebody has to | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
take responsibility with this. In your government, nobody has taken | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
responsibility. We have all respect -- accepted responsibility. We said | :04:16. | :04:26. | |
:04:26. | :04:27. | ||
mattof the the meantime, we have organised a | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
committee to go out to Marikana to try to reverse the cycle that has | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
led to this tragedy. We will also deal with matters relating to that. | :04:39. | :04:46. | |
You talk about the cycle. It is complex. One part of it has been | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
the long-running dispute between the National Union and mine workers | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
and breakaway union representing other mine workers, the AMCU. Does | :04:56. | :05:05. | |
it surprise you that other aware of the assistance of the AMCU | :05:05. | :05:13. | |
are until after the massacre. -- existence. Those matters to do with | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Labour is in the purview of the Minister of Labour. The Minister of | :05:17. | :05:27. | |
the mines is not responsible for that. The existence of the union | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
was known beforehand. The impact of it was something which took many | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
people by surprise. It is not credible, is it, that your | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
colleague, the mind Minister did not know about the AMCU. It is not | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
credible. I am sure they had a good idea of what the make-up of what | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
the organisations in that industry was. Five cents a little | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
awkwardness awkwardnessue satisfied that other key members of | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
the government are on top of the situation? Every effort is being | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
made by our government to address the challenges arising from the | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
situation. That includes some of the broader matters that may arise | :06:21. | :06:29. | |
from this. Generally, we have responded in an appropriate way. | :06:29. | :06:39. | |
:06:39. | :06:41. | ||
leaves you with a big problem. Your trading ministry Minister says that | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
more workers are going on strike. Anglo American platinum mine is | :06:46. | :06:56. | |
:06:56. | :06:57. | ||
being affected. The Royal Bafokeng platinum mine is being affected. | :06:57. | :07:06. | |
There are some serious industry challenges. I have been looking | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
closely at what this means in terms of the broader market reaction to | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
South Africa and what it means in terms of investment pipeline. This | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
event is very contained. For example, we have seen the stock | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
market has been resilient under the circumstances, generally. And the | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
shares of Lonmin have taken a tumble. But shares across the board | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
have holed up in other sectors. As far as the correct investment | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
pipeline is concerned, there are bigger factors which are being | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
considered by investors. This includes the fact that Africa is | :07:53. | :08:00. | |
without doubt the next frontier with a shock. There is a | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
repositioning of foreign investors towards the African continent. -- | :08:04. | :08:13. | |
Asia. I am seeing no signs that at this point there is no serious | :08:13. | :08:23. | |
contagion affecting those regions. Our response has got to be... We | :08:23. | :08:33. | |
:08:33. | :08:36. | ||
have to work in all aspects of the Our response is going to be what is | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
critical. If you make the appropriate response, the art | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
Sunworld will see that we are a government that is capable of | :08:44. | :08:54. | |
:08:54. | :08:54. | ||
responding. -- are the outside world. We have to make a dent into | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
the big structural problems that have confronted South African | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
society for many decades, including the apartheid era. They were | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
miserable conditions for workers. We would get to that in a moment. I | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
am amazed that you are not seeing worrying signs. I can quote to you | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
a leading mining and business consultant in Cape Town. He says | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
that what has happened has reinforced the view that South | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
Africa is a risky place to put your money. This incident is another | :09:33. | :09:41. | |
obstacle in a way of attracting it, another person says. Many | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
commentators who have said things like that Port the markets have not | :09:46. | :09:56. | |
:09:56. | :10:01. | ||
responded in that particular way. - Some people think it is too risky | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
to continue with the projects they have been involved in. We are not | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
seeing that at this point. It is our job as government to try to | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
reassure investors, particularly investors not directly involved in | :10:19. | :10:29. | |
:10:29. | :10:37. | ||
the platinum industry. If you work will be improved. Is it really | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
contained when the chief of Royal Bafokeng Platinum says, I don't | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
think this is about Lonmin or mining. This is becoming a South | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
African phenomenon where people are dissatisfied and resorting to | :10:53. | :11:02. | |
violence means to resolve disputes, rather than negotiations. I think | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
that the resort to violence in certain disputes, including | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
industrial relations, is not new. It is something which we are trying | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
to grapple with. This incident is alarming us to become more | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
effective in this regard. -- allowing. We have to address | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
inequalities in our country. We have to move forward with our | :11:32. | :11:42. | |
:11:42. | :11:46. | ||
changes if we want to bring about In the next few years, the efforts | :11:46. | :11:53. | |
we have made are beginning to bear some results. We have to me forward | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
in the programme. We have to include this year economic | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
conditions of the him vast majority of the working people and | :12:03. | :12:13. | |
:12:13. | :12:16. | ||
unemployed. That is what we are focused on. I have to interrupt. I | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
have to say, over the last seven years, I have had a host of senior | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
South Africa ministers telling me that that is their commitment and | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
that is what they pledged to deliver to the South African people. | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
A major up list for the living standards. It has not happened. 18 | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
years after the liberation struggle and did, after Nelson Mandela was | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
put into the presidential headquarters, Hicom 40% of your | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
people are living in poverty? How come the government has failed to | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
it to deliver for so many South African people? The reality is that | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
the social records has been pretty impressive in terms of delivering | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
of housing, social security and things of that sort. What we have | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
not salt is the structural unemployment problem which we have | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
inherited from apartheid. It has gotten worse since the economy went | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
into crisis. This administration has at under fire that we need to | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
make some important structural changes in our economy. -- | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
identified. We have started to roll out a series of policies. We have | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
started to roll out infrastructure development programmes. It has gone | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
through a high level of planning. These steps are necessary to bring | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
about structural changes. These changes will deliver the results we | :13:54. | :14:02. | |
want. But not in the immediate term. They will require a year or two | :14:02. | :14:09. | |
before the fruits are filled. We can see the benefits of these | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
You use the language of dry economics. Many people who are | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
dissatisfied with what the governments have delivered by using | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
a very different language. I'm thinking about the deposed head of | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
the ANC Youth League. He is making a political here right now. And he | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
said that Jacob Zuma had totally failed to challenge what he calls | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
white monopoly capital. He said that is the lesson to learn from | :14:43. | :14:52. | |
what has happened. A those of us who are still in the ANC had agreed | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
that the next phase of democratic revolution will have to focus on | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
bringing about a much more rapid process of economic transformation. | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
That does mean also that we have to change very much the patterns of | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
ownership and the way in which ownership is going to be exercised | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
in our country. That has caught a number of different aspects to it. | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
-- that has caught. These programmes are something that we | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
have outlined. We know the direction as we need to move in. We | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
face challenges of implementation. I would suggest that we can already | :15:35. | :15:45. | |
:15:45. | :15:45. | ||
see some of the benefits of that. Short-term populist solutions which | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
are suggested by individuals will not solve the problems. These are | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
serious structural problems. I would argue that we have the | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
approaches in place which will deliver the results. What we need | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
to do is stick to what we have indicated that we will do. We need | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
to move in a more energetic and effective way towards | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
implementation. I think it is a cause which we are committed to. | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
Why would the poor people of South Africa, who have seen this lack of | :16:18. | :16:27. | |
delivery for many years, believe you now. Who are the people, the | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
people used to DNC advocates, they are directors of massive corporate | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
entities. These people are, in some cases, working inside companies | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
like Lonmin. They are part of the capital system. They are not trying | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
to transform it. We have had a long, hard look at what we have | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
understood in Parliament. Just yesterday, we have released some | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
amendments to the black economic codes of practice. We want to give | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
more emphasis to those parts of the empowerment that deal with the | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
support for enterprise development and promote a real entrepreneurial | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
culture among our people in South Africa and give much more serious | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
support to intubation programmes, training, skills development and | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
things like that. -- intubation. That is the direction we are trying | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
to move in. These, I would contend, are the things that are necessary | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
for us to do. I think we have outlined and have got quite a | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
serious political buy into. The challenge, as I say, is to make | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
sure we move forward towards implementation of those programmes. | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
You are no communist command you? am indeed. -- You are a communist | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
command you? You much support the call for the implementation of the | :18:04. | :18:12. | |
mines. We have taken the view that fundamental issues are not | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
questions of changes of ownership. These are questions of the | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
structural direction of the economy. Those are the fundamental questions. | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
We support the call that we should have a stronger state involvement | :18:27. | :18:36. | |
in the mining sector. That should lead to greater beneficiary -- more | :18:36. | :18:46. | |
:18:46. | :18:51. | ||
Let's drop the jargon and stick to the basic points. Where do you | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
stand? Are you prepared to tell me that you are ready to countenance | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
the nationalisation of the mines? It is the hottest issue in South | :19:03. | :19:12. | |
Africa today. There was a study which was under tick by the ANC. -- | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
which the ANC under tick. There was contribution made to the debate. | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
The main focus was that what we need to do is to use the mineral | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
wealth but we have in our country as a tool to develop an | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
industrialised South Africa. That is fundamentally what it is about. | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
That is not jargon. The real challenge that Africa faces, not | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
just South Africa, is to move from not just being producers and | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
exporters have brought under the ground but to being producers and | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
exporters of products based on the mineral wealth that we have. That | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
should be used in international trade. That is where we need to go | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
as a country and the Continent. I think our strategy is beginning to | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
lay out how we need to move on. Correct me if I am wrong but I do | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
not feel I am getting a clear answer from you on this issue of | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
nationalisation. That might be because you face impossible | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
pressures. On the one hand, you have got a loud call for many | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
people in South Africa to move ahead with nationalisation. You | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
have also got the business sector and you have to watch what they are | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
telling you. They will say that even the current policy of imposing | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
a super tax on profits and regulating the mines in a more | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
assertive way, even that threatens the mining sector, which is so | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
important to you country. You are caught between a rock and a hard | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
place, aren't you? The fundamental challenge is that we need to move | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
from being producers and exporters of dirt out of the ground used in | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
other industrial processes to a country which is able to | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
industrialise on the basis of the wealth that we have. At the | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
question is what used to be make of the already existing ownership of | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
mineral rights that we have offered government -- as a government and | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
the allocation of these rights to companies, but becomes a critically | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
important question. We already have significant ownership rights of | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
mineral wealth. I think but once we get that right, we can begin to | :21:39. | :21:49. | |
:21:49. | :21:50. | ||
talk about a more substantial state involvement. We need to talk about | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
shares in the mining sector not being held by a state company. | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
autumn wind, Jacob Zuma faces a challenge for the leadership of the | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
ANC in November. -- bottom line. There are other candidates who | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
seemed more keen. Who will you back? Could do you believe will be | :22:13. | :22:20. | |
the new leader? I will not get into that. The time for us to discuss | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
leadership preferences within the structures of the ANC is not now. | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
Some individuals may have chosen not to accept that discipline. That | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
is the discipline that is applicable to all was. The country | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
is in a terrible mess right now. -- to all of us. The economy looks | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
weaker than many of your African neighbours. Many talk about the new | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
frontier and after cuts but said that figure is in grave danger of | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
missing out. That's the new frontier in Africa. | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
We are a critical part of the African continent. We are | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
:23:13. | :23:16. | ||
energetically pursuing integration in a number of ways. It is very | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
clear that South Africa's role in Africa is an important one. I think | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
that the picture of the country falling apart is not correct. Many | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
people in this country, commentators, others who want to | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
tell a different story, they are wrong. I do not believe that is a | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
correct picture. I think the picture is akin to that in Britain | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
a few years ago where there was youth unrest taking place across | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
your country. There were deep and serious social issues. It merited a | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
serious ongoing engagement. That is what has happened for us. We need | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
to address those type of challenges and issues. It is to be seen as an | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
injunction to move more rapidly. We need to create employment and | :24:12. | :24:18. |