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decide if he was a man or a mouse. Now on BBC News, it is time for | :00:06. | :00:13. | |
HARDtalk. Western powers led by the United | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
States would dearly like to deal with a well organised, United and | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
anti- aside opposition in Syria. But right now, there is no such | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
thing, which has left to the west strategy tended it at best. | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
Supportive of the rebels but not without arms. Eager to seek | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
President Assad ousted but apprehensive about what will come | :00:35. | :00:42. | |
after. My guess today is Brian Sayers, chief lobbyist for the | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :01:17. | ||
Syrian support group. Just how Brian Sayers, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
Can we start about being clear about your role? New are a hired | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
consultants and lobbyists. Is that right? That is right. The Syrian | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
support group is a collection of largely US-based to Syrian | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
immigrants, Ex patriots. And they are committed to finding an army | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
and Syrian rebels inside Syria? Specifically to the military | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
councils of the Free Syrian Army. Not broadly all the rebels, but yes. | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Are you doing this job because it is good business for you or you | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
passionately believe in the cause? I do believe in the cause. I | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
believe that we have to do something to bring down the regime, | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
to help as an international community, to bring democracy | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
inside the bidder for mosaic of Syria. I absolutely believe in the | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
course. Again, it is a business move for you. You are doing it | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
because they are paying you good money. I am tired, ERM staff, we | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
can debate whether it is good or bad money, but it is definitely a | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
cause that is worse for Bill Ing. I can look in my mirror in the | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
morning and be happy. -- were fulfilling. But it is not easy what | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
you are doing. You are spending an awful lot of time on Capitol Hill, | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
in proximity to the White House, trying to persuade the people that | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
matter that they needed to do much more to back the Syrian opposition, | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
in particular, the Syrian fighters on the ground. It is heavy going, | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
is it not? It is a lot of discussion, negotiation, it is | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
bringing forth the case which we think is important, people are | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
sympathetic and understanding, but what is clear is they cannot always | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
deliver with actions. I'm not sure it is not the only thing that is | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
clear. Many people in Washington have grave doubts about the | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
coherence, the unity, the co- ordination behind the Syrian | :03:31. | :03:39. | |
opposition. Agreed? Absolutely. Because they are in a mess. In the | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
opposition is a very big umbrella. If you bring it down to a small | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
umbrella, there is a Free Syrian Army which is more understandable, | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
if you bring it down to a smaller umbrella, it is the military | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
councils that we deal with, which represent about 60% of the Free | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Syrian Army. In general, there is an opposition that a lot of people | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
have a hard time understanding. They have a hard time because they | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
are fighting like rats in a sack, to coin a phrase. We have seen the | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
French President talk about France's desire to recognise a | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
provisional government, in the United States unnamed officials | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
immediately shot that down, saying that it would be premature. The | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
over Archer reality is that the Syrian opposition is deeply and it | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
internally divided. -- overarching. You draw on two different things. | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
There is the civilian opposition, which is going through the | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
transition plan, which would normally be the civilian government | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
in the future, then there is the military side, the Free Syrian Army. | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
I would not say that the two eye in the same type. The political | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
opposition is being challenged immensely, to try to form some type | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
of unified government, if you move to the military side, we do have | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
military councils with a decent amount of command and control. I am | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
not going to say it is perfect, and there are problems in the country | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
and other groups that are there, but there is some kind of command | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
and control. Let's pick through the politics and the military. The | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
military is what you are after, because you are after money for | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
weapons, to put it bluntly. And in that issued, you have to recognise | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
that what you are able to offer in your Syrian support group is | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
nothing but a drop in the ocean compared to what is being offered | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
from Saudi Arabia, from Qatar, other Gulf states, Turkey as well. | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
You are a very minor player at, aren't you? At present. We would | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
like to turn that around. We would like to become a more major player, | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
and we think that the funds, some funds from Saudi Arabia, some funds | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
from Qatar, would actually be best placed it through the Syrian | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
support group, where we would have a universal F8 in trying to help | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
the vetted free Syrian army that we know, the military councils. But at | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
present, we have small funds, and we have what I call mum and pop | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
funds to help out. How much have you provided so far? And we have | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
not delivered any funds because we are still working on the logistics. | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
When one of your co-founders talked about being up and running with $7 | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
million a month being funded, he was in cuckoo land. He was | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
anticipating what he would like to have. We do not have a crystal ball, | :07:01. | :07:09. | |
but I do not think that is entirely impossible. But right now, the | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
grand total of money that you had sent his is zero. But that is | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
largely because of logistical reasons. We have to set up on | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
Office, an account. Are you getting good access to do it President | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
Obama? And you have talks with the ambassador for the US ambassador | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
for Syria, who was a key player in formulating strategy, or the | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
special envoy to the Syrian opposition? I have talked with many | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
government officials, but as a matter of principle, I do not | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
disclose with who you talk to. you talking to officials in London | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
about what governments in the UK, Europe and Turkey may do for you? | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
am talking to officials and I'm talking about a number of things, | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
about what we do, without there is scope for assistants, and how we | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
can work together. The reason I am quizzing knew about this, is that | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
there is a context, and the context is that clearly be US Admin, other | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
Western administrations, I did -- deeply worried that the dominant | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
influence among the fighters is coming from Islamist, Militant and | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
Jihad in networks, who in many ways, they appear to be a long-term | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
potential strategic threat to Western interests. All the more | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
reason to counter that with the support and eight that we can | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
provide, if countries can provide it, it is great. But to me, what | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
you are saying, is an argument for by the international community | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
needs to be more engaged. I am an argument for questioning the very | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
premise that you operate upon. If you are trying to raise money in | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
the West to help the Free Syrian Army, and I am telling you that all | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
the evidence suggests the Free Syrian Army is increasingly | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
dominated an employer must by Jihad D M Militant it interests, why on | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
earth with the West listen to you? -- jihadist and militant. And we do | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
not deal with the broad umbrella of the Free Syrian Army. We would be | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
giving to the nine military councils, with the commanders that | :09:28. | :09:36. | |
we know, that we had been talking to pore over a year, who had signed | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
a bill of principles, they have declared what they are fighting for, | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
and it is very important that we recognise part of the reason we | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
have these relations, is that we build these relationships with the | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
commanders on the ground. You talk about this word vetting, what on | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
earth demeaned that you that the military councils? -- do you mean. | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
We know who we are going to give money to. But you do not know what | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
you like -- what they are going to do with it. We do know. Some of | :10:13. | :10:21. | |
them will buy weapons, some of them will pay for salaries,... whose | :10:21. | :10:29. | |
hands were those weapons end up in? At the military council. Not the | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
frontiers -- the fighters on the front line. We know from human | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
rights organisation reports, many of the fighters on the front line | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
are committed jihadists. They are getting funding, the resources from | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
other countries are ready. They are not looking for our type of funding. | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
They did not care where the money comes from as long is it can buy | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
them a weapon. Which is why we would be imposing very strict | :11:00. | :11:07. | |
controls. One who would get the funding. There you are sitting in | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
the comfortable office in Washington. How on earth do you and | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
your colleagues in Washington expect to be credible when you say | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
that, we will impose controls on fighters on the ground in Syria? | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
is not in Washington. Our board of directors and members will be in | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
Turkey. They are in North America as I understand it. But we do have | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
some in Turkey. Turkey is an awful long way from Aleppo. When the | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
missiles are coming down and the response is coming from the Free | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
Syrian Army on the ground, I do not think they will be talking -- | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
calling up Turkey. They do travel to Turkey quite a bit. But my point | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
is that the war is in Syria. There are people outside the country, | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
Syrians and their supporters to have strong views about the way the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
struggle should be conducted, military or not, how it should be | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
organised, but there are people inside, and it looks like the | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
people inside are the dominant force when it comes to the | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
strategic direction of the opposition, and you are not in | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
sight. We are not physically insights but we are talking to | :12:23. | :12:31. | |
these guys on a daily basis. Have you been inside? I do not, because | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
my job is to be in Washington, it is to deal with the government | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
relations. But we sent the ball inside to talk to the commanders | :12:40. | :12:49. | |
and understand what the requirements are. -- people inside. | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
Has the Aleppo military commanders signed? Yes. As the chief in Aleppo, | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
he is responsible for the men who we saw on compelling video evidence, | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
lining up prisoners and shooting them in the head. You are talking | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
about a different group. They were FSA people inside Aleppo. There | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
were some FSA, yes, but it is not part of the military councils that | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
we are dealing with. You make it sound like it is a neat wall where | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
everybody has clear identification, and they only stay within the | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
parameters. As I understand it, it is a very complex battlefield, | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
conflict zone, and there are people who claim loyalty to the FSA, who | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
receive money and weapons from FSA sources, who frankly, when it comes | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
to the fight, fight by their own rules. Exactly, and they have a | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
different type of command and control. What is the meaning of all | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
this betting? Why shouldn't we support those who are fighting for | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
the future democratic Syria, because be., the very people who | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
you say are fighting for democracy, handout weapons to fight under the | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
banner of the FSA, a get weapons and money, and then conduct the | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
military operations in a way which completely contradicts your proper | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
:14:29. | :14:39. | ||
And they would not receive funding from ours. You do not know that | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
because you do not know where the money goes once it has crossed the | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
border into Syria? Yes we do. thank you know I you're getting | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
told by people whose main interest is to get money to buy weapons. | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
They do not tell you exactly when they go? Nobody is going to be able | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
to track the end user for everything bar we have a set of | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
eight steps, a vetting process which requires a probation period, | :15:10. | :15:20. | |
:15:20. | :15:21. | ||
it requires principles to be signed. If we find that there is any type | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
of contravention to the Geneva Convention, we would stop the | :15:25. | :15:33. | |
funding. You read the press reports, Washington Post reporting from on | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
the ground, very courageous reporting where a group is using | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
fighters, G Hardee is from Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, if you found that | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
any of your money is going to a group like that you would stop it? | :15:49. | :15:56. | |
We would stop it. If they had not signed up to the proclamation... | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
What if they had? We would stop it as well. So the proclamation is | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
meaningless? It is if it is not being carried out on the ground. | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
The Syrian government accuses many fighters at as terrorist. The | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
Russians say outside forces are pursuing their own agenda inside | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
Syria, allegedly, the US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar. Due not think the | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
sort of thing you're telling me today about what you want to | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
achieve inside Syria and the money and weapon you want to put in, | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
simply reinforces their argument? That series being used as a battle | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
ground for outside forces and influencers to meddle? As I said | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
before, our objective is to help the Military Council's in an | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
organic structure. We want to help those guys that on the ground, who | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
have signed this proclamation, who want a unified multi-ethnic Syria, | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
and we will do everything we can. We would prefer to see that we are | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
actually supporting the guys who were going to be a part of the | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
future of a democratic Syria. I have no problem funding for that. | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
The deer have any problem with what is happening in Aleppo. Even to | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
quiet Rebel fighters themselves, 70% of the city is with the regime | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
but most of the fighters from the rebel forces are not from a Aleppo | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
itself, they are from outside, many from outside the country, does that | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
raise moral issues about whether the citizens and civilians of a | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
Aleppo are being treated fair by the rebel fighters? It is | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
problematic. That Iran other fighters have now. What Colonel | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
Keating in Aleppo is trying to do is to bring those who fight and a | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
his command under the fold and under the proclamation that he has | :17:58. | :18:06. | |
signed. At the same time, let us be clear, no-one has really said that | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
the regime has control of a Aleppo at this point. I have no evidence | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
that the regime... It is carrying out hit-and-run tactics. The leper | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
is in a state of conflict. Absolutely. Multiply that around | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
the country, the death toll is now close to 20,000 or behold. I am try | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
to get a sense of your moral position. You are a former NATO and | :18:33. | :18:41. | |
US official, you have a record of being involved in the policy, is | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
there a conflict here about you trying to get money and weapons | :18:46. | :18:55. | |
into a conflict whereby there is no immediate end point. The moral | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
question is that if you do nothing I would have a problem sleeping at | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
night. The best thing to do is to get support into the hands of those | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
military officials that believe that they are fighting for the new | :19:11. | :19:18. | |
Syria. For the mosaic and multi- ethnic Syria. They want to go back | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
to the villages and towns, they want to the normal life at that | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
they have had. To say that it is better off morally acceptable to do | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
absolutely nothing, they gives the argument again, to the outside | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
forces that are providing supplies and money and weapons to those | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
fringe groups that have nothing to do with serious, that they're there | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
to fight inside Syria for a period of time. You are talking about the | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
jihadist forces? You are clearly worried about them? The point is, | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
you are on the same side? They are fighting the regime but that is | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
about all you have in common. that is a big point. You have ended | :20:01. | :20:09. | |
up getting Inst -- involved in a conflict where your key allies,... | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
They are not allies. Forgive me, poor when there is a battle like | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
there is in a leper, frankly, they are allies. -- a leper. Allies are | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
people who you can call on to get help. We have complete agreement in | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
what we're doing. We get to the same basis together. We trained | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
together. In this case, this is a decentralised issue. A lot of did | :20:38. | :20:48. | |
:20:48. | :20:50. | ||
she Hardy's fight separately. -- a lot of that jihad us. There is so | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
complicated message you are giving. And give us money we can funnel | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
into the Free Syrian Army but particular elements and understand | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
that at the very same time they might be fighting alongside people | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
who we now are actually extremely dangerous to Syria's future - | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
militants. You have to trust us that the money and weapons we | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
finally in will not get to the bad guys on our side, there will only | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
get to the good guys on our side. It is not going to be a perfect | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
situation by we're trying to do the best we can with what we are given. | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
When you read that there are increasing numbers of Syrian | :21:30. | :21:37. | |
Christians who are fleeing the country alongside the many sore | :21:37. | :21:45. | |
knees, -- Sunni, and the nightmare for Christians in Syria is when the | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
revolution took an Islamist foes, this is not the modern country we | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
had. When you see in this performance and where it is going, | :21:55. | :22:04. | |
D have grave doubts? I would tell me that woman, there is also a | :22:04. | :22:12. | |
Jesuit who was kicked out of Syria and for 30 years, the regime | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
brutalise the people. I have nothing against the mother and her | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
experience but father Palo would tell you he lived under a Mafia | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
state and that right now is the time for the opposition for the FSA | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
to try and fight that mafia state and to try and bring a democratic | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
country for all serious. Is it really the time to fire for | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
outsiders to parlay in with more weapons and money for weapons. I | :22:42. | :22:51. | |
leave you with the quote from two of Syria's political prisoners: We | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
cannot accept Syria been transformed into a theatre of | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
regional and international conflict. You are part of that. What we're | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
trying to do is to bring peace, to reduce the casualties on the ground. | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
The last thing we want a more killings. We want stop the killing. | :23:08. | :23:17. | |
By taking out a Saab assets, the planes,... That cannot happen | :23:17. | :23:24. | |
without more active Western and US and Arab involvement? None of that | :23:24. | :23:32. | |
is a realistic prospect, is it morally right to continually called | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
for weapons and money to going when a frankly, this, but, for the | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
rebels is unwinnable. We have talked about weapons as a strategy | :23:41. | :23:51. | |
:23:51. | :23:52. | ||
to take out Assad. It is better to take these assets to reduce the | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
casualties. We have always talked about helping out with field | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
hospitals that help Christians, Alawites, the regime, the soldier | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
who is captured, these are the things that we are talking about. | :24:10. | :24:16. |