Raymond Tshibanda - Foreign Minister, Democratic Republic of Congo HARDtalk


Raymond Tshibanda - Foreign Minister, Democratic Republic of Congo

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power for nearly a decade. Now some Now on BBC News it's time for

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The army is in disarray in the Congo, the Kinshasa government

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faces allegations of electoral fraud and corruption. My just as

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the minister of foreign affairs, Raymond Tshibanda, what hope is

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Will come too HARDtalk. The UN in New York a few days ago and, you

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said that eastern Congo is back in a situation of war. Do except that

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is a sign of strategic failure on the part of your government? Not at

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all. This country has come a long way. You will recall that a few

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years back the country was divided in pieces. Now it is reunited. We

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did not have any elections in the country. In 2006, we had a first

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round of elections. In 2012, we had a second round. I cannot say it is

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a failure. We are contemplating allegations against a country.

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will on pick some of that over the next 20 minutes. Let us leave aside

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the elections in stick with what was happening in the east of your

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country. Hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced and

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killed during the last few weeks. Powerful voices inside a country

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say that responsibility lies with a government that in 2009 made a

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peace deal with the very people who are now involved in the armed

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rebellion. When we are confronted with a war situation you have to

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find always to put an end to the rebellion. That is what we did in

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2010. We gave the Congolese people a chance to make peace, to fix the

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social fabric of the country. We expect them to behave properly

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until now. The phrase, you reap what you sow comes to mind. The key

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figure in the peace deal used truck was a man known as the Terminator.

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He had been sought on an indictment from the International Criminal

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Court for war crimes for inducing children to become child soldiers.

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There was the menu to into your armed forces and gave the title of

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general. Do you regret that? Sees in where we are today, we could

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regret that. Do you think it was a mistake? We did bring peace to the

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region for the last three years. It is the first time that the tribal

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people could go back to business is usual. You mean the area close to

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the Bromley an Rwandan border. A place which has seen millions of

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people die. The conflict is resuming this very day. It should

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be a terrible failure? It is not a failure on the government side. It

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is a failure of those who have decided to start the war again.

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Those who do not believe in peaceful relations between the

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countries of the region. Those who believed it to solve the problems

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the only recourse is armed force. Let us be clear about what has

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happened, and the Terminator decided to go away from Goma and

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back into the bush. Many of his fighters joined them. They left the

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Congolese armed forces and joined in with the armed insurrection. You

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have 20,000 soldiers in this part of the country. They have been

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retreating by a few hundred metres. Your security forces are

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undisciplined, corrupt and they are rotten to the call. You know better

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than that. We are confronted with an army, a foreign army. It has

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been documented by the UN. You are talking about Rwanda. Yes. You're

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telling me all the problems have been caused by the Rwandan

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government? We do not have the other problem elsewhere in the

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country. We can go from the bottom to the top of the country and

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people living police. It is only in that area. We have people living

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across the borders and they have no problems. The president of a wonder

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denied that they were supporting rebels operating within the North

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and self- Kevan. He sued the allegations made by your government

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and the UN experts are unsubstantiated with real evidence?

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He is entitled to his opinion. He is the only one holding that

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opinion. I have been talking to everybody else, they have enough

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evidence that will wonder is meddling in its side the internal

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affairs of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. If that is true, why

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for the last several years have Rwandan forces including elite

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special forces been working alongside your own security forces.

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Wearing Congolese army uniforms? Were have to clarify this. When we

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decided in 2009 to normalise relations between the countries, we

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decided to join forces to put an end to one of the most negative

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forces that exist in the area. was the name given to the militia

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group made up of Hutu rebels, the 50 are many responsible for the

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genocide in wonder. The Rwandan government was determined to root

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them out and they wanted your help and support. We knew that although

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the government of Roar one though wanted to rid of this force, they

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have been there for years and they did not know it. Because if you

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will recall, from 1998 until 2003 they occupied that part of our

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country. They did not too much to root out the force. Since it became

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a bone between the two countries, we decided, the problem was on a

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house or in we wanted to see them out. We've agreed to join forces

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with the wonderful stop if so you have been working with a man who

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Eucla him was causing war in your region. He has been working

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alongside your security forces? have done it publicly. Then how can

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you Tommy it is his fault? He has been your ally. To go together with

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the FDR is one thing. Breda that during 2008 and 2009. From then on,

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the armed forces continued the fight alone. We had to reassure the

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Rwandan government that their intelligence officers worked with a

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loss to make sure the operations would continue. Operation is inside

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a country? Years. That was not inviting Rwanda to rule out in the

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north. There was not inviting them to decide where the units of the

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armed force would be posted. This is what the wind has been doing.

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This is what created the problem today. I see it is convenient for

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you to blame the violence on Rwandan. But you know that groups

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with the neurone country demanded the impeachment of your President

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on charges of high treason because they believe that the root of the

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current problem is the deal struck between him and rebel forces in

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2009 that allowed people wanted suspected war criminals to play a

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key role in the east of your country. That, as the root of your

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country's problem today? I do not agree with that analysis. It is

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only in the TRC that the Opposition leaders can congregate and make

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that kind of communication and go freely. In no other part of the

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region would that happen. Having said that, let us not shy away from

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the situation we have today in that part of the country. In his been

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demonstrated with a lot of evidence that what we Herve, it could not

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have happened without the involvement of from one be.

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Rwandan so reject that contention. Let us look at what happens next.

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As we speak today, a hundreds of people have been killed in the

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recent past. Hundreds of thousands have been displaced. Something has

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to be done to up the suffering people of the of the Kevu. Someone

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should police the border. Do you except that will not happen? What

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you say it will not happen? The has a lot of scepticism about the UN

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extending its role. Could be meeting the different members of

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the security Council. At the beginning, they did not understand

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the concept. As we are talking to them, they understand what we're

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trying to achieve. This is not a demand from the DRC. This is a

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decision made by the head of state of the whole region. Including the

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President of for away under. It was made in June. It was endorsed at

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the last African Union summit. It was reset stated in Kampala or by

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the heads of the Great Lakes region. If the UN will not expand its

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mission as people in your country want to know, because it does not

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really want to become an active party to the conflict, it wants to

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be a peacekeeping institution, which to except a regional board --

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regional Great Lakes intervention in East of your country? That

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question has been discussed at length. Our position is very clear

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and it is the position of the region. He region is involved and

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it feels it needs the United Nations and the African union for

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us to be effective and deliver the response that is required. We need

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an international neutral force. This force will be made of troops

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from countries of the region other than the countries involved in the

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conflict with a DRC. They will not be in that force. They will be in

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not be from Rwanda or the DLC or Burundi. They can come from the

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countries beyond our region. much weight will will the UN put on

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Yes,... You couldn't have been more wrong, could you? Know. That was

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one year ago. But was before we discovered what happened. It was a

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year ago. I came back to the phrase I used to the beginning, massive

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strategic failure. You've got it all wrong. Not at all. I don't buy

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that. When you deal with any partner or with any other country,

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you've got to trust the partner or the other party to some extent. Are

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you telling me that we shouldn't have put some trust in what we are

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trying to do? Building lasting peaceful relationships with the

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region? We did that with the wonder, we did that with Uganda. We did

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have problems with them. If you talk about trust, it seems the

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basic trust problem is that many people both inside and outside of

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your car but -- country look at your Government can see the top

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politicians and senior members of the armed forces have benefited

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four years from the chaos, from the violence and the endemic corruption

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that we see in DRC. Many of them believe there you and your

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colleagues have no interest in truly stabilising and pacifying the

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country. The well, I don't know where they got that from. I think

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this is a government which has done quite a lot. We do realise there is

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still quite a lot to be done. Let's look at where the country was about

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15 years ago. We've come a very long way. When this government came

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into power, this country was in shambles. According to all the

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statistics I see, it is still in shambles. A I don't agree with that.

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95% of people living on less than $2.80 in one of the potentially

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richest countries in the world. A life expectation for the average

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person of under 50 years of age and you're telling me your country is

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not in shambles? No, it's not. The country is on the part of recovery.

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We have to put things in respected. We have to see where we were. The

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Long Travel we have made since then. The inflation was in the thousands.

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That is not the situation... Having visited your country and reported

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on it, you have come from a difficult place, but you are still

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in that very difficult place and you don't seem to be making many

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improvements. If one reads the US State Department most recent report

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on endemic corruption inside your government, if one reads all the

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transparency International and other NGO work that is done on your

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country and the World Bank and the IMF reporting on your country, all

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of them say that your country will not move forward as long as the

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government is so systematically and under Mickley corrupt. Yes, we do

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recognise that we have a problem. We are working on it. I would like

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to state that does give us a few more years and you will see the

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change that will take place in the DRC. When you see what we have

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delivered over the last few years, you should be entitled to trusting

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this government. As I understand it, your country over the last period

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since the end of the active walk across your nation, has had $14

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billion of international assistance. $12 billion of debt was written off

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as well. Why, in that case, are ordinary Congolese still mired in

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desperate poverty? Because those who live in power were before last

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didn't do anything and we have to build the country from scratch.

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Forgive me, but your President has been in power for two terms now. He

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has had a substantial run-up changing your country. You and

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other ministers have had ample opportunity to change the culture,

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but it hasn't worked. But me ask you a question. During that period,

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how many years were we on the war? We have had basically 15 years of

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conflict. As we have established, the conflict isn't over. Are you

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telling me that during conflict you can build a country and build an

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economy? Especially an economy that you find in such disarray as it was.

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The first thing was to reunite the country, the second thing was to

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bring back peace in the country, the third ding was to start

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rebuilding the country. How does it help to reunite the country, when

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according to EU monitors, to the Centre for democracy, the 2011

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Election was fraudulent, there was massive evidence of vote rigging,

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of staff ballots, and no international organisation David a

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stamp of approval? I read the reports from the beginning to the

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end. I didn't find the words are you're using. You are putting it in

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such a way that it sounds as if we had the most fraudulent elections

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on the continent, which is not the case. If you read the reports you

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would seek condemnation of the way the election was handled. 33 people

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lost their lives during the election campaign. Hundreds were

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injured at most of them were associated with the opposition.

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They would have been just one death to money if they had only been one

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death. We regret that. Going towards these elections, everybody

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was predicting hundreds of deaths. They didn't occur. The people who

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died... For 33 deaths during an election campaign is acceptable?

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it's not. I said it would have been one to Monique I do not accept one

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single death. What am I say -- what I'm saying is how did it happen?

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Who killed them? How did they die? They were not killed by the

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military forces, they were not killed by the police force, we all

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regret that the violence occurred during the elections. This question

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how did they die could also apply to your country's leading human

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rights campaigners, who died in 2010. He was assassinated. A big

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loss for the country. I don't know whether he was assassinated, I know

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he was murdered. What we know is that five junior policemen were

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arrested in connection with his death. The chain of command and

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responsibility for the death went much higher. Would you like to see,

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for example, your chief of police, who is very close to your boss,

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would you like to see him testify in court and answer as to his role?

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This is a case which is before the courts. Would you mind me not

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commenting on a case that is still being seen? And not asking for any

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opinion of his involvement, I am just asking if you would like to

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see for the good of your nation to see him testify? I would like to

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see justice done. There is nobody who is above the law in this

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country. Would you like to see him testify? If the justice system

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deals that he needs to testify, why not? There is nothing to hide. He

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is not above the law. Are you satisfied that the winds of change

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are sweeping through your country? In my country, we went through this

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before. We are at an advanced stage today. We keep revising assistance.

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How country is under reform every day. You mentioned the elections.

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We went through a very difficult time during the last elections. We

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are at -- revising all the procedures. There is nothing that

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