Browse content similar to Ashti Hawrami - Minister for Natural Resources, Kurdistan Regional Government. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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statements at the party conference in Brighton. | :00:02. | :00:12. | |
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Those are the main stories. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Kurds in Iraq | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
are growing restless and impatient over the violence and open | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
political rivalries in Baghdad between Shias and Sunnis. Iraq's | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
autonomous Kurdish region of four million is a haven of relative | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
stability and prosperity and what's more has its own oil riches to | :00:24. | :00:31. | |
exploit. I speak to Ashti Hawrami. For the last six years, he's been | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
minister for natural resources in Kurdistan's regional government. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
Why are Kurds upsetting the central government by increasingly seizing | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
control of their oil resources and exports? Do they have plans to | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
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break away? Mr Ashti Hawrami, welcome to | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you. You're the minister for | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
natural resources and oil. These things are at the very heart of the | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
tensions between your Kurdish reason will -- regional government | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
in Kurdistan and the federal government in Baghdad. In it is | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
part of the problem, it's not the only one. Fundamentally, it's a | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
constitutional issue. You are the minister for oil and gas. Let's | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
stick with the oil for the moment. It's part of the problem, you say - | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
how do you define the problem? all about control and | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
centralisation versus decentralisation. We are exercising | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
our rights according to the constitution. The federal | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
constitution, as you know, has been the subject of a disagreement. You | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
haven't really sorted all the outstanding differences out. As | :02:11. | :02:20. | |
things stand, there are continuing. Reserves in Kurdistan in northern | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
Iraq are reckoned to be about 45 billion barrels. Is it your belief | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
that you should have control of your oil production and export? | :02:32. | :02:42. | |
First of all, this 45 billion, which has an estimate, six years | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
ago, there was not even one single barrel. It didn't exist. We have | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
created good activity. We have achieved this result for all of | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
Iraq. Controlling the resource and managing it is one thing, the | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
ownership is another thing. Under the constitution, the ownership of | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
the oil, when it becomes dollars, if you like, not only belongs to | :03:07. | :03:17. | |
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the Iraqi people - (INAUDIBLE).... I should just say, your maximum | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
production is something like 250,000 barrels per day. He has | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
reduced your production because of a dispute with the government in | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
Baghdad. Precisely about who should cut deals, basically, with foreign | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
oil companies in the Kurdish regional area. You say it's your | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
responsibility, or it's your right, and Baghdad says "know it's not, | :03:45. | :03:54. | |
it's ours". We have 50 companies working in the region, from 23 | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
countries internationally. They have been attracted to invest more | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
than $10 billion into Kurdistan. What we are claiming seems to be | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
believed by 50 companies, they are coming and investing, believing in | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
the bright future. Is that the case? I'll give you one example, | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
Exxon Mobile in 2011, you struck a deal giving them exploration in | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
Kurdistan. They have kept very quiet because they have a huge | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
interest in southern Iraq where they operate also. They have not | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
said very much. You know that the government in Baghdad was furious. | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
The Deputy Prime Minister was reported all over the press as | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
boiling with anger when he struck your own deal with Exxon Mobile. | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
shouldn't be. This is a service for Iraq. For Iraq or for yourself? | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
or Iraq. It was good for Kurdistan and good for all of Iraq, actually. | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
Is that the case? How is it? You have got 22 hours' worth of | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
electricity per day. The rest of Iraq has four hours on average. It | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
sounds like, perhaps, you are doing much, much better. We are doing | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
better because we are sticking to Investment policies that work. | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
Unfortunately, our colleagues in Baghdad are following outdated | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
policies which do not attract investment. For example, | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
electricity management - when I arrived we had two hours of | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
electricity and everyone else had 3-4. We have arrived at 22 hours | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
now by investing about $1 billion of government support into the | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
private sector. We have fundamentally solved the problem. | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
We now export some electricity to neighbouring provinces. Baghdad, | :05:45. | :05:55. | |
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according to the statistics we hear about, they have $37 billion only | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
three -6 hours of electricity. The question is - why is there this | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
gap? It's not our fault that Iraq does it have the electricity. | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
fact of the matter is - sticking with the Foreign oil companies - | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
are you not giving them better deals than are offered in the rest | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
of Iraq? I will tell you what a prominent analyst says - he says | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
that the production-sharing contract conditions in Kurdistan | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
are more generous to the company's them the contracts available from | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
the federal government in Baghdad. It sounds like you're trying to | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
beat the rest of Iraq. Not at all. Saying "come to us, we will give | :06:32. | :06:42. | |
:06:42. | :06:45. | ||
you a better deal."... First of all, in the south we saw a giant | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
oilfields being discovered and they had been exploited for years in the | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
past. They are proven. There is no ambiguity about how much oil we can | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
get. We have invested in better technology and we are at extracting | :06:59. | :07:08. | |
more.... By contrast, in Kurdistan, it was not proven we had a drop of | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
oil. It took about seven years before people struck oil for export. | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
In the south, for example, as you mentioned, one month later he has a | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
cash flow on his investment. The value of money is different from | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
the one we are investing in in Kurdistan. I am one discussing the | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
politics. You know the government in Baghdad is extremely angry. Rory | :07:32. | :07:41. | |
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are now -- the President complained to ObamaCare earlier this year.... | :07:45. | :07:55. | |
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-- a President Obama.... How you see it is not how the Americans see | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
it. That's how you see it... It's the opinion of the American | :08:06. | :08:16. | |
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Administration, Ex on Mobile, that kind of thing. -- Exxon Mobile.... | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
These are the large companies of the United States working in | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Kurdistan. But it comes with a health warning. What I'm saying is | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
your perspective is not one that is shared. It is not shared by the | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
government in Baghdad, that you have the right to do what you were | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
doing, striking of these contracts with these companies. Also, a big | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
support of Iraq, like the United States - that is what the State | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
Department is saying. That is different to what we are hearing | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
behind the scenes. So what they say to you "carry on". The constitution | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
is on our side, that is number one. Every side has a number of lawyers | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
to look at the constitution of Iraq and satisfy their clients to say | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
that it is safe to invest there. they are telling you one thing | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
behind Baghdad's back. I am not saying exactly that. The State | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
Department can say what they're like. Importantly, they are not | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
deterring any single investor. That's what's important. Secondly, | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
I will quiddity very nicely - if I have a million barrels of oil in | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
two years' time, Iraq needs it. At the end of the day we will win the | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
money. You think you have the right and the Kurdistan regional | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
government to control your exports? We have every right to do that with | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
oil and gas, as long as we do what transparently, according to the | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
constitution, and the revenue does for all people. You are building | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
this new pipeline, because there has been the existing one from the | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
time of Sudan Hussein -- Saddam Hussein, in Turkey - you would like | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
to build a new one going into Turkey. You should be able to | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
export may be a million barrels per day into Turkey. Correct? Putin | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
Turkey signed that deal with? Your regional government, or Baghdad? -- | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
who did. If the private sector initiative on both sides of the | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
border. That kind of thing - a pipeline going from one country to | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
another, you would think it would require a deal between sovereign | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
states? Not necessarily, as long as the revenue is counted - we should | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
not have... It's just a private deal? The government of Iraq has a | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
right to ask where the money is. What has Baghdad said to you about | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
this pipeline? No nothing has been discussed. They didn't sign? | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
haven't signed either. At the moment it's just a proposal on a | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
pipeline - it's on the agenda. know what I'm getting at - the | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
undercurrent in his conversation we are having is that - how far does | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
the could stay and regional governments seek its oil and gas | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
wealth as an enabling factor to it becoming independent -- Kurdistan. | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
We don't want to get back into the cage where everything is controlled | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
by Baghdad, like we had for 50 years. Out revenue being used by | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
ink bombs and bombing people. happened under Saddam Hussein. Are | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
you saying that could happen under this government? If you don't have | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
checks and balances... Are you seriously saying that this | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
government might carry out something like the terrible | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
massacre where the Iraqi... I am not saying that, I'm saying that | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
the Iraqi people - the capability is there because the democracy is | :11:49. | :11:59. | |
not matured yet. We are quite right to be cautious, to be worried about | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
what we have witnessed in the past and to be very careful of how we | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
move forward into the future. What is wrong with implementing the | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
constitution which united Iraq? The constitution of Iraq had Kurdistan | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
sitting outside of Iraq. We would get half of our revenue from the | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
United Nations in the food for oil programme. Now we are part of the | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
constitution - that is our certificate. I'll put it the other | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
way - you have been autonomous since 1991, you have your own armed | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
forces. You have relative peace and prosperity. You are a haven of | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
stability when you look at Iraq. Why wouldn't you want to seek | :12:39. | :12:48. | |
independence? First of all, I would say that it is in our blood to one | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
day want nationhood. It's enshrined in the constitution of Iraq as our | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
right. Are we actually working towards independence? The answer is | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
No. Really, is that the case? Absolutely. It's not a policy of my | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
government to go for independence. Is that the case? The President of | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
the Kurdistan regional government said on Al-Jazeera television - he | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
talked about the fact that Iraq, in his words, is moving towards a | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
catastrophe. He talked about a dictatorship, referring to the | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
current government. He said he would put a referendum to the | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
Kurdish people that they would never accept a return to | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
dictatorship. I would be the same answer. What he said as if we are | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
moving towards dictatorship, we have no choice but to come back to | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
the people and ask them for a verdict. So, it wasn't just a | :13:42. | :13:52. | |
:13:52. | :13:53. | ||
sensible idea of mine when I said... What I'm trying to say is that Iraq | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
has its own constitution and we can exist peacefully, no Kurd would | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
like to be independent, because we are better off in a democratic, | :14:00. | :14:10. | |
:14:10. | :14:10. | ||
wealthy Iraq. The Orwell we have is a lot of oil, -- oil. We will get | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
more by sharing with Iraq. If I start with what we have an Baghdad | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
doesn't give me my share, then the constitution will be negated. When | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
you have the constitution negated upon, you are in your right to | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
search for an alternative.... Iraq could produce as much as 12 | :14:28. | :14:35. | |
million barrels per day, which is more than Saudi Arabia. Sticking | :14:35. | :14:45. | |
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with Rory on a -- the President... We know he has had a lot of issues | :14:46. | :14:56. | |
:14:56. | :15:06. | ||
He is his own Minister of Defence and Interior Minister. Do you feel | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
that in the capital of Kurdistan that you are feeling signs of a | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
dictatorship and you are thinking, what can we do about this? My job | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
is a technocrat, I look at the oil. And you're part of the government. | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
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I have seen that on the oil side. It applies to the other sectors, | :15:32. | :15:39. | |
where it is security or defence. I put it to you, Iraq is poor at the | :15:39. | :15:48. | |
moment. We don't have services. Why do I need to go by at sixteens | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
before I build my electricity network? Think about that. Iraq | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
needs to move to reconstruction first. You say you don't want to | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
speak politically, but it is clear President is on the record as being | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
openly hostile. He tried to help bring about a third of no | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
confidence in the Iraqi Parliament to try and bring him down. The | :16:12. | :16:21. | |
President of the United Iraq also reckoned there. It is beginning to | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
look as if the Kurds in Iraq are destabilising the Federal | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
Government in Baghdad. Quite opposite. If it was not for the | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
role of those two, you would probably have a civil war in Iraq. | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
We have always been there as a separating presence between the | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
Iraqi people. If you ask any of our friends, the role of Kurds in | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
Baghdad is trying to bring the parties together to make it | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
function. Yes, we had difficulties and nobody can hide, but at the end | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
of the day, Iraq has some democratic instruments remaining. | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
At the elections, people can choose again. I just came back from | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
Baghdad after oil negotiations. It seemed to be a very positive | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
atmosphere. My colleagues are supportive and doing something | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
together, regardless of the political stand-off at. You said a | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
moment ago that Kurds can always dream about what can it be referred | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
to as a greater Kurdistan. We sought at the beginning of last | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
century that there was a move to some help build a Kurdistan there | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
would you die the Kurdish people of Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. -- | :17:44. | :17:52. | |
United. You, out of these four countries, are in the strongest | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
position. You have enjoyed relative be done -- freedom over the past | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
two decades. Again I can relate not bouncer that exactly the way you | :18:05. | :18:14. | |
put it. What I can say, looking at Iraqi Kurdistan, it is a good model | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
for other countries to look out. There's nothing wrong with people | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
in neighbouring countries to aspire to have the same rights as we have. | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
Have we we can implement them. People thinking of politically co- | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
existing within their own borders, but demanding equal rights. There | :18:35. | :18:43. | |
is nothing wrong with that. reason I mention this is that Iraq | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
borders Syria, there are about one million Kurds in Syria, and we know | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
that the President has gone on the record and said there are training | :18:53. | :19:02. | |
camps inside Iraqi Kurdistan for Syrian Kurds to have fled and the | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
id is that perhaps if the time is right they would go from these | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
training camps into Syria to help in the fight against Bashar al- | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
Assad, but also to assert themselves. I heard that. It was | :19:14. | :19:23. | |
not quite that. He did say that. What he actually said was the role | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
was to fall. One was to get the Kurds not to fight each other, not | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
to have enough fighting within the Kurdish areas. Secondly, to keep | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
them away from any fighting against any other groups, which is also | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
famed for considering what has happened in Syria. The Kurdish area | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
is still relatively unharmed because the Kurds conformed. This | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
was on Al Jazeera TV... These people are being trained to defend | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
themselves in the event of attack, not to go attack anybody else. | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
has confirmed, on a Al Jazeera TV, but his administration has been | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
chaining it the Kurdish Syrian fighters on its territory and that | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
a good number of young Syrian Kurds could be deployed. He has said that. | :20:12. | :20:20. | |
He's On the Record as saying that. They are being training camps. They | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
could go into fighting. Not for fighting. Were Iraqi Kurds going to | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
help them fighting? No. That is out of the question as the conflict | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
becomes wider, Kurdistan has not taken any decision whatsoever to | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
actually go into Syria and defend anybody. If the situation changed | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
and if the national community comes at last Kurdistan how things can | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
develop, that is a different matter. You have got one Kurdish Syrian | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
leader saying, we are able to govern ourselves, we have the power | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
for it. That is Syria. You're talking about how you have good | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
ties with Turkey, but if you look at the state a 20 million Kurds - | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
there are many documented reports that say they have been | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
discriminated at best or persecuted at worst - and yet here is the | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
turkey and all the Kurds in Turkey St, we want to use our own language | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
and assert ourselves. How do you square that? If you look about two | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
or three years ago, the situation was very tough -- tents. Nowra | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
relationship is fantastic. They are number one trade partner. You also | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
to allow them at the militants, the Turkish Kurdish militants, to | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
operate from the mountainous region between the two countries. We are | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
not allowing them by choice. don't move against them. | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
situation is recognised now. This conflict is still there. It is a | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
political solution required to be found. This government in Turkey | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
has done fantastic there. I think we should credit them. There has | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
been conflicts between the two groups over the past ten years. | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
not saying the job is finished. don't feel torn between your | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
Kurdish brothers and sisters in Turkey are trying to also maintain | :22:29. | :22:38. | |
good ties with the Government? do not believe any situation can be | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
solved with conflict. It needs to be done by dialogue. When you look | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
at the shake-up in the Middle East going on, people are saying this, | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
but I'll give you one person who has gone on record as saying this, | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
a professor of Middle Eastern Studies who says, although it is | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
too early to talk about the emergence of a Greater Kurdistan, | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
and imagined community resonates deeply across Turkey, Syria, Iraq | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
and Iran. Will we see him independent Greater Kurdistan in | :23:09. | :23:16. | |
your lifetime? I hope so, but that is not the objective at the moment. | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
There is nothing wrong to have a greater Kurdistan, whether it is | :23:20. | :23:30. | |
:23:30. | :23:33. | ||
part of this country or that country. If you look at the map of | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
Europe, even Iraqi Kurdistan is bigger than half of the countries. | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
There is nothing wrong with that. We are priding ourselves on moving | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
towards independence. We are working as part of a bigger the | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
Republic. The Republic of Iraq is a constitution. We love the | :23:54. | :24:00. |