Ashti Hawrami - Minister for Natural Resources, Kurdistan Regional Government HARDtalk


Ashti Hawrami - Minister for Natural Resources, Kurdistan Regional Government

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statements at the party conference in Brighton.

:00:02.:00:12.
:00:12.:00:12.

Those are the main stories. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Kurds in Iraq

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are growing restless and impatient over the violence and open

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political rivalries in Baghdad between Shias and Sunnis. Iraq's

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autonomous Kurdish region of four million is a haven of relative

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stability and prosperity and what's more has its own oil riches to

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exploit. I speak to Ashti Hawrami. For the last six years, he's been

:00:31.:00:36.

minister for natural resources in Kurdistan's regional government.

:00:36.:00:39.

Why are Kurds upsetting the central government by increasingly seizing

:00:39.:00:42.

control of their oil resources and exports? Do they have plans to

:00:42.:00:52.
:00:52.:01:13.

break away? Mr Ashti Hawrami, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you. You're the minister for

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natural resources and oil. These things are at the very heart of the

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tensions between your Kurdish reason will -- regional government

:01:26.:01:30.

in Kurdistan and the federal government in Baghdad. In it is

:01:30.:01:36.

part of the problem, it's not the only one. Fundamentally, it's a

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constitutional issue. You are the minister for oil and gas. Let's

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stick with the oil for the moment. It's part of the problem, you say -

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how do you define the problem? all about control and

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centralisation versus decentralisation. We are exercising

:01:56.:01:59.

our rights according to the constitution. The federal

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constitution, as you know, has been the subject of a disagreement. You

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haven't really sorted all the outstanding differences out. As

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things stand, there are continuing. Reserves in Kurdistan in northern

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Iraq are reckoned to be about 45 billion barrels. Is it your belief

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that you should have control of your oil production and export?

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First of all, this 45 billion, which has an estimate, six years

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ago, there was not even one single barrel. It didn't exist. We have

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created good activity. We have achieved this result for all of

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Iraq. Controlling the resource and managing it is one thing, the

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ownership is another thing. Under the constitution, the ownership of

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the oil, when it becomes dollars, if you like, not only belongs to

:03:07.:03:17.
:03:17.:03:23.

the Iraqi people - (INAUDIBLE).... I should just say, your maximum

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production is something like 250,000 barrels per day. He has

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reduced your production because of a dispute with the government in

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Baghdad. Precisely about who should cut deals, basically, with foreign

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oil companies in the Kurdish regional area. You say it's your

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responsibility, or it's your right, and Baghdad says "know it's not,

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it's ours". We have 50 companies working in the region, from 23

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countries internationally. They have been attracted to invest more

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than $10 billion into Kurdistan. What we are claiming seems to be

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believed by 50 companies, they are coming and investing, believing in

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the bright future. Is that the case? I'll give you one example,

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Exxon Mobile in 2011, you struck a deal giving them exploration in

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Kurdistan. They have kept very quiet because they have a huge

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interest in southern Iraq where they operate also. They have not

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said very much. You know that the government in Baghdad was furious.

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The Deputy Prime Minister was reported all over the press as

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boiling with anger when he struck your own deal with Exxon Mobile.

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shouldn't be. This is a service for Iraq. For Iraq or for yourself?

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or Iraq. It was good for Kurdistan and good for all of Iraq, actually.

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Is that the case? How is it? You have got 22 hours' worth of

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electricity per day. The rest of Iraq has four hours on average. It

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sounds like, perhaps, you are doing much, much better. We are doing

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better because we are sticking to Investment policies that work.

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Unfortunately, our colleagues in Baghdad are following outdated

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policies which do not attract investment. For example,

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electricity management - when I arrived we had two hours of

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electricity and everyone else had 3-4. We have arrived at 22 hours

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now by investing about $1 billion of government support into the

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private sector. We have fundamentally solved the problem.

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We now export some electricity to neighbouring provinces. Baghdad,

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according to the statistics we hear about, they have $37 billion only

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three -6 hours of electricity. The question is - why is there this

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gap? It's not our fault that Iraq does it have the electricity.

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fact of the matter is - sticking with the Foreign oil companies -

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are you not giving them better deals than are offered in the rest

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of Iraq? I will tell you what a prominent analyst says - he says

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that the production-sharing contract conditions in Kurdistan

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are more generous to the company's them the contracts available from

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the federal government in Baghdad. It sounds like you're trying to

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beat the rest of Iraq. Not at all. Saying "come to us, we will give

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you a better deal."... First of all, in the south we saw a giant

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oilfields being discovered and they had been exploited for years in the

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past. They are proven. There is no ambiguity about how much oil we can

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get. We have invested in better technology and we are at extracting

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more.... By contrast, in Kurdistan, it was not proven we had a drop of

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oil. It took about seven years before people struck oil for export.

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In the south, for example, as you mentioned, one month later he has a

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cash flow on his investment. The value of money is different from

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the one we are investing in in Kurdistan. I am one discussing the

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politics. You know the government in Baghdad is extremely angry. Rory

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:07:42.:07:45.

are now -- the President complained to ObamaCare earlier this year....

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:07:55.:08:00.

-- a President Obama.... How you see it is not how the Americans see

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it. That's how you see it... It's the opinion of the American

:08:06.:08:16.
:08:16.:08:19.

Administration, Ex on Mobile, that kind of thing. -- Exxon Mobile....

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These are the large companies of the United States working in

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Kurdistan. But it comes with a health warning. What I'm saying is

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your perspective is not one that is shared. It is not shared by the

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government in Baghdad, that you have the right to do what you were

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doing, striking of these contracts with these companies. Also, a big

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support of Iraq, like the United States - that is what the State

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Department is saying. That is different to what we are hearing

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behind the scenes. So what they say to you "carry on". The constitution

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is on our side, that is number one. Every side has a number of lawyers

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to look at the constitution of Iraq and satisfy their clients to say

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that it is safe to invest there. they are telling you one thing

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behind Baghdad's back. I am not saying exactly that. The State

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Department can say what they're like. Importantly, they are not

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deterring any single investor. That's what's important. Secondly,

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I will quiddity very nicely - if I have a million barrels of oil in

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two years' time, Iraq needs it. At the end of the day we will win the

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money. You think you have the right and the Kurdistan regional

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government to control your exports? We have every right to do that with

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oil and gas, as long as we do what transparently, according to the

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constitution, and the revenue does for all people. You are building

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this new pipeline, because there has been the existing one from the

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time of Sudan Hussein -- Saddam Hussein, in Turkey - you would like

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to build a new one going into Turkey. You should be able to

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export may be a million barrels per day into Turkey. Correct? Putin

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Turkey signed that deal with? Your regional government, or Baghdad? --

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who did. If the private sector initiative on both sides of the

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border. That kind of thing - a pipeline going from one country to

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another, you would think it would require a deal between sovereign

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states? Not necessarily, as long as the revenue is counted - we should

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not have... It's just a private deal? The government of Iraq has a

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right to ask where the money is. What has Baghdad said to you about

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this pipeline? No nothing has been discussed. They didn't sign?

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haven't signed either. At the moment it's just a proposal on a

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pipeline - it's on the agenda. know what I'm getting at - the

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undercurrent in his conversation we are having is that - how far does

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the could stay and regional governments seek its oil and gas

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wealth as an enabling factor to it becoming independent -- Kurdistan.

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We don't want to get back into the cage where everything is controlled

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by Baghdad, like we had for 50 years. Out revenue being used by

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ink bombs and bombing people. happened under Saddam Hussein. Are

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you saying that could happen under this government? If you don't have

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checks and balances... Are you seriously saying that this

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government might carry out something like the terrible

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massacre where the Iraqi... I am not saying that, I'm saying that

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the Iraqi people - the capability is there because the democracy is

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not matured yet. We are quite right to be cautious, to be worried about

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what we have witnessed in the past and to be very careful of how we

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move forward into the future. What is wrong with implementing the

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constitution which united Iraq? The constitution of Iraq had Kurdistan

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sitting outside of Iraq. We would get half of our revenue from the

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United Nations in the food for oil programme. Now we are part of the

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constitution - that is our certificate. I'll put it the other

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way - you have been autonomous since 1991, you have your own armed

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forces. You have relative peace and prosperity. You are a haven of

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stability when you look at Iraq. Why wouldn't you want to seek

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independence? First of all, I would say that it is in our blood to one

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day want nationhood. It's enshrined in the constitution of Iraq as our

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right. Are we actually working towards independence? The answer is

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No. Really, is that the case? Absolutely. It's not a policy of my

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government to go for independence. Is that the case? The President of

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the Kurdistan regional government said on Al-Jazeera television - he

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talked about the fact that Iraq, in his words, is moving towards a

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catastrophe. He talked about a dictatorship, referring to the

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current government. He said he would put a referendum to the

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Kurdish people that they would never accept a return to

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dictatorship. I would be the same answer. What he said as if we are

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moving towards dictatorship, we have no choice but to come back to

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the people and ask them for a verdict. So, it wasn't just a

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:13:52.:13:53.

sensible idea of mine when I said... What I'm trying to say is that Iraq

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has its own constitution and we can exist peacefully, no Kurd would

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like to be independent, because we are better off in a democratic,

:14:00.:14:10.
:14:10.:14:10.

wealthy Iraq. The Orwell we have is a lot of oil, -- oil. We will get

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more by sharing with Iraq. If I start with what we have an Baghdad

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doesn't give me my share, then the constitution will be negated. When

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you have the constitution negated upon, you are in your right to

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search for an alternative.... Iraq could produce as much as 12

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million barrels per day, which is more than Saudi Arabia. Sticking

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:14:45.:14:46.

with Rory on a -- the President... We know he has had a lot of issues

:14:46.:14:56.
:14:56.:15:06.

He is his own Minister of Defence and Interior Minister. Do you feel

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that in the capital of Kurdistan that you are feeling signs of a

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dictatorship and you are thinking, what can we do about this? My job

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is a technocrat, I look at the oil. And you're part of the government.

:15:22.:15:32.
:15:32.:15:32.

I have seen that on the oil side. It applies to the other sectors,

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where it is security or defence. I put it to you, Iraq is poor at the

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moment. We don't have services. Why do I need to go by at sixteens

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before I build my electricity network? Think about that. Iraq

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needs to move to reconstruction first. You say you don't want to

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speak politically, but it is clear President is on the record as being

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openly hostile. He tried to help bring about a third of no

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confidence in the Iraqi Parliament to try and bring him down. The

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President of the United Iraq also reckoned there. It is beginning to

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look as if the Kurds in Iraq are destabilising the Federal

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Government in Baghdad. Quite opposite. If it was not for the

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role of those two, you would probably have a civil war in Iraq.

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We have always been there as a separating presence between the

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Iraqi people. If you ask any of our friends, the role of Kurds in

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Baghdad is trying to bring the parties together to make it

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function. Yes, we had difficulties and nobody can hide, but at the end

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of the day, Iraq has some democratic instruments remaining.

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At the elections, people can choose again. I just came back from

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Baghdad after oil negotiations. It seemed to be a very positive

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atmosphere. My colleagues are supportive and doing something

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together, regardless of the political stand-off at. You said a

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moment ago that Kurds can always dream about what can it be referred

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to as a greater Kurdistan. We sought at the beginning of last

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century that there was a move to some help build a Kurdistan there

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would you die the Kurdish people of Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. --

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United. You, out of these four countries, are in the strongest

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position. You have enjoyed relative be done -- freedom over the past

:17:58.:18:05.

two decades. Again I can relate not bouncer that exactly the way you

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put it. What I can say, looking at Iraqi Kurdistan, it is a good model

:18:14.:18:19.

for other countries to look out. There's nothing wrong with people

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in neighbouring countries to aspire to have the same rights as we have.

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Have we we can implement them. People thinking of politically co-

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existing within their own borders, but demanding equal rights. There

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is nothing wrong with that. reason I mention this is that Iraq

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borders Syria, there are about one million Kurds in Syria, and we know

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that the President has gone on the record and said there are training

:18:53.:19:02.

camps inside Iraqi Kurdistan for Syrian Kurds to have fled and the

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id is that perhaps if the time is right they would go from these

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training camps into Syria to help in the fight against Bashar al-

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Assad, but also to assert themselves. I heard that. It was

:19:14.:19:23.

not quite that. He did say that. What he actually said was the role

:19:23.:19:27.

was to fall. One was to get the Kurds not to fight each other, not

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to have enough fighting within the Kurdish areas. Secondly, to keep

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them away from any fighting against any other groups, which is also

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famed for considering what has happened in Syria. The Kurdish area

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is still relatively unharmed because the Kurds conformed. This

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was on Al Jazeera TV... These people are being trained to defend

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themselves in the event of attack, not to go attack anybody else.

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has confirmed, on a Al Jazeera TV, but his administration has been

:20:04.:20:08.

chaining it the Kurdish Syrian fighters on its territory and that

:20:08.:20:12.

a good number of young Syrian Kurds could be deployed. He has said that.

:20:12.:20:20.

He's On the Record as saying that. They are being training camps. They

:20:20.:20:24.

could go into fighting. Not for fighting. Were Iraqi Kurds going to

:20:24.:20:31.

help them fighting? No. That is out of the question as the conflict

:20:31.:20:37.

becomes wider, Kurdistan has not taken any decision whatsoever to

:20:37.:20:43.

actually go into Syria and defend anybody. If the situation changed

:20:43.:20:47.

and if the national community comes at last Kurdistan how things can

:20:47.:20:53.

develop, that is a different matter. You have got one Kurdish Syrian

:20:53.:20:57.

leader saying, we are able to govern ourselves, we have the power

:20:57.:21:03.

for it. That is Syria. You're talking about how you have good

:21:03.:21:08.

ties with Turkey, but if you look at the state a 20 million Kurds -

:21:08.:21:11.

there are many documented reports that say they have been

:21:11.:21:16.

discriminated at best or persecuted at worst - and yet here is the

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turkey and all the Kurds in Turkey St, we want to use our own language

:21:21.:21:27.

and assert ourselves. How do you square that? If you look about two

:21:27.:21:33.

or three years ago, the situation was very tough -- tents. Nowra

:21:33.:21:40.

relationship is fantastic. They are number one trade partner. You also

:21:40.:21:46.

to allow them at the militants, the Turkish Kurdish militants, to

:21:46.:21:49.

operate from the mountainous region between the two countries. We are

:21:50.:21:54.

not allowing them by choice. don't move against them.

:21:54.:22:00.

situation is recognised now. This conflict is still there. It is a

:22:00.:22:06.

political solution required to be found. This government in Turkey

:22:06.:22:14.

has done fantastic there. I think we should credit them. There has

:22:14.:22:22.

been conflicts between the two groups over the past ten years.

:22:22.:22:26.

not saying the job is finished. don't feel torn between your

:22:26.:22:29.

Kurdish brothers and sisters in Turkey are trying to also maintain

:22:29.:22:38.

good ties with the Government? do not believe any situation can be

:22:38.:22:43.

solved with conflict. It needs to be done by dialogue. When you look

:22:43.:22:47.

at the shake-up in the Middle East going on, people are saying this,

:22:47.:22:52.

but I'll give you one person who has gone on record as saying this,

:22:52.:22:56.

a professor of Middle Eastern Studies who says, although it is

:22:56.:23:00.

too early to talk about the emergence of a Greater Kurdistan,

:23:00.:23:04.

and imagined community resonates deeply across Turkey, Syria, Iraq

:23:04.:23:09.

and Iran. Will we see him independent Greater Kurdistan in

:23:09.:23:16.

your lifetime? I hope so, but that is not the objective at the moment.

:23:16.:23:20.

There is nothing wrong to have a greater Kurdistan, whether it is

:23:20.:23:30.
:23:30.:23:33.

part of this country or that country. If you look at the map of

:23:33.:23:36.

Europe, even Iraqi Kurdistan is bigger than half of the countries.

:23:36.:23:45.

There is nothing wrong with that. We are priding ourselves on moving

:23:45.:23:50.

towards independence. We are working as part of a bigger the

:23:50.:23:54.

Republic. The Republic of Iraq is a constitution. We love the

:23:54.:24:00.

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